The thread was supposed to be Unobtanium, a member of a family of the handwavium of substances

This is something that has been brewing in my mind for a while. It revolves that there are things that corporations and governments have access to that are simply beyond the budget of Shadowrunners.

Tanks, A-T weaponry, sensor systems way beyond anything in the books, 40 dice firewalls, aerospace fighters, cybernetics not on the market, cyborg shells.

I think it's good that the Shadowrun books focus on what is obtainable by Shadowrunners and not the unobtainables. Really when was the last time a runner could afford his/her lifestyle let alone the 1.5 billion nuyen patrol corvette (why yes I just parked it down at the marina)?

As a GM I find it fine that there are things that Shadowrunners do not have access to. I also do not see why in an OCD way everything has to be described to nauseating detail.

It doesn't bother me either that lots of high-level weaponry and equipment doesn't get statted out. But it does limit what you can do with the rules. Not having high-end military stuff statted out is fine for playing your standard shadowrunners, but what if you want to play a game where the characters are elite SF operators, with access to that kind of fancy gear? It's not impossible, but it does force some creativity on the GM to come up with appropriate stats.

And in SR3, they did have aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines statted out in Rigger 3, so it's not like there's no precedent for having that kind of stuff statted out.

Because there is more than just one way to play shadowrun.
Mercenary Style Campaign for example. Or high life, low skill, no Morals.
Also, such things are more or less available even as of today.
I would certainly expect some sort of representation of todays stuf in SR.

I don't see the point of statting out very large vehicules like ships aside as an exercise of geek masturbation. I mean, do you stat out buildings? You're on a ship, that's all you need to know. If your ship gets attacked by another ship, the GM is basically going to story-tell the combat, not roll it out.

You *could* have an alternative campaign where you are captain of a battleship, but I don't lament the omission of stats for a battleship for the .00001% gamers that will be running this campaign. SR4 made a decision to go back to the street roots of runners. I agree with that decision.

Amen to that...

If tanks and battleships are common enough where they need stats as vehicles and are not set pieces, then you really arn't playing shadow run anymore. It's like asking why D&D doesn't support laser pistols, it's just not within the scope of the game.

Who are you to say what is and isn't shadowrun? Is it not legitimate to run something like a Desert Wars campaign? Or to play as corp or government soldiers? There's a whole lot of potential for different things for players to do within the shadowrun world, and it seems awfully stupid to intentionally limit yourself. I don't think stats for high-end military gear like that is necessary or pressing, and I know nothing like that is on the radar for upcoming products, but I wouldn't be pissed if something like that got released. So what if it's there. Use it if you want, don't use it otherwise.

And, D&D does support laser pistols. At least, it did in 1E. There was a published adventure (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) where the players investigated the site of a spaceship crash, complete with robots, power armor, and laser pistols. The stuff got to be a bit overpowered for a fantasy world, but it was there. And players had fun with it.

Does anybody actually remember Fields of Fire? That covered the mid-range military hardware and looked at Desert Wars and mercenary/miltary-centric campaigns. Heck, a good amount of the 4^th ed fluff covers things of that nature. It was never especially my cup of tea, but it's an important facet of the larger 6^th World. I looked into it seriously... and for people interested in former Merc or ex-military characters, there was important perspective in there.


Um, actually, from the chats on the Shadowrun4.com website, there have been SEVERAL hints that real military hardware will get a serious brush this year (assuming Catalyst sticks to their ambitious schedule) and even a couple forshadowings of a hot war. Like The_Real_Elwood said, if you don't like or want it, don't buy it. But if a serious hot war breaks out in the 6^th world, expect it to have as far reaching consequences as the assasination of Big D. Then it will be your choice to accept the developments or decide to freeze your own timeline and go your own way. I know where I will stand in the event that war breaks out in the 6^th world. My biggest curiosity is if it will be national (Say CAS vs. Aztlan; Everybody vs. Aztlan; NAN vs. UCAS) or corporate (There've been a LOT of big shakeups lately, more than at any time since the Shaiwase Decision, destabilizing the delicate balance in the AAA Corporate world.) or maybe one will help destabilize and sill over into the other. MY real question is going to be "where will Kerenshara stand in the event of war?" because war in the 6^th world is certain to offer all kinds of prime opportunities for ambitious 'runners.

WAR IS GOOD for Business

Well that's swell news. Admittedly, I don't follow the chats particularly closely, so I had no idea that it was hinted. I loved Fields of Fire, and it was great for campaign ideas, but as far as actual crunch for military equipment, it wasn't terribly heavy and most of it has been covered in Arsenal. But I'd love to see an SR4 adaption of the fancier gear from the Cannon Comp and Rigger 3, and maybe even some new stuff thrown in. That kind of stuff IS my cup of tea, though, so I'm a bit biased. None of the games I ever played in, I ever came close to touching that kind of gear, but it was still fun to think about.

LOL, if I ever have to resort to that kind of gear myself as a 'runner, I know I've got lots bigger issues to contend with. Sure, at some point, assuming she lives long enough to reach Prime Runner status, I can see Kerenshara in a T-Bird tangling with opponents serious oponents or even in the back seat of a trans-atmospheric fighter if the Johnson has enough pull. I should have clarified that it's not the gear that I am ambivalent to, but the mercenary campaign / hard military campaign; I feel like it looses a little bit of what I think makes the 6th World unique, but that's me, and it doesn't mean it won't wind up figuring prominently as a tandem event.

Just what number of runners do you think would have access to Aguiller attack choppers, nuclear submarines and cybermancy clinics?

- J.

Anti-tank weaponry, we can get. We can get naval lasers, FFS. Those will pop tanks open.

Tanks, they just have no place in the game. No Shadowrunner would be dumb enough to fight a tank, nor would they have any good reason to drive one. They would work for a military or mercenary game, but they just don't belong in basic Shadowrun. But yeah, you're probably right that they're beyond a Shadowrunner's budget, they'd cost at least a million yen I'd imagine.

As for for die firewalls, they don't exist. Unwired lists rating 7 firewalls as the unonbtainable prototype super programs. Not rating 40.



This I agree with completely. Rigger 3 was almost offensive to me. They wanted me to pay money for a book that was 1/4 naval combat and 1/4 space travel? My ass.

Quite a few once they get to Prime Runner status, none with half a brain, and ... who'd WANT to voluntarily? *shudder*

Dual-role helos aren't that tough with enough nuyen. Their weapons and attack electronics are another matter, but they're also small enough to smuggle a LOT more easily, which means they're available for a price. And if you're going after a remote site, having one might be workable. Besides, it's the rigger's toy. And t-birds are right up there too, you know.

Um, tanks aren't unstoppable, especially if the GM allows for creativity.

As to driving one, give me PCA (Powered Combat Armor) any day - all the firepower, three times the mobility at a tenth the cost.


I never bought the thing, but things like that are mostly reference as props/background for adventures - like escaping from or being based off of that corvette, or winding up on that space station or being chased by an avenging aerospace fighter.

I think it would be tough to find a use for the naval rules (when am I going to run into a supercarrier in-game?). But I think that Rigger 3 was worth it for the vehicle customization rules, and the extra drones/vehicles in there. You can do some pretty neat stuff with the vehicle customization rules, and they're a lot of fun to play around with, if nothing else.

I'm sorry if my question was imprecise: what percentage of campaigns go long enough for this to be an issue? If your answer is the same then I suspect you are running/ playing in a rather large (and odd) number of jigh powered campaigns.

I don't think all items are there for the PCs to acquire, although granted they may get to - even if it is temporary.

- J.

Try reading Unwired.


Zurich Orbital (Terrestrial Station) has a 9.

It is interesting to note that half of you are against the idea that there are things which are not in the games. The other half I agree with.

If people really want to play a military campaign, let's play with Phoenix Command, or then use a wargame.

I will also point out that the majority of modern squad-based military weaponry is already beyond what is mentioned in Arsenal in terms of lethality, accuracy and ease of use.

Unwired also states UV systems require a minimum rating 10 system. Ive extrapolated the basic grouping of ratings 1-3, 4-6 to include 7-9 and 10-12 for hardware and software ratings. Making 7-9 obtainable but not easily and 10-12 the holy grail of hacker goodness. I've had one player who wanted to write his own rating 12 program. Showing me he could cut the time in half (more if rushed) using the right gear and with the assistance of one other hacker he could do it by the rules in just a few months of downtime.

And then it will detoriate, if he does not constanly write his own patches and updates and bugfixes for it too.

And on which system does he intend to run this beast?

Some sort of Cluster i would guess.

Well sure I remember it. It's sitting right over there *points*. I use it pretty much every time a make a character

He could run it on a system 6 comm as long as program had the optimization option. I'm definitely causing him grief over it. Not only discussing patching issues, he's also had a mysterious hacker stalking him. (G.O.D. hacker thats caught wind of his elicit skills.)

I've decided one program wouldn't unbalance our game. The groups past Technomancer routinely broke the rating 6 cap. And its allowed me to add some additional story elements.

Bless, you. Some of the younglings on here have been making me feel drekking old, lately. *grin*


You know, I really like the way you handled this, overall, for several readsons. It's story based, still manages to let the player have their bit of spotlight and "special" access to highlight their special skills, but keeps a careful eye on game balance, gets player buy-in to your strategy, and gives you a nice big set of hooks you're actively using to advance the plot - with (in)voluntary player drive and participation. I believe you can mark that one down as a "win".

Just to chime in, I've got almost no tolerance for the degredation/piracy rules. Degradation is like adding back in SR3's matrix bookkeeping, and then MULTIPLYING it. No f'ing way. Talk about hackers sucking up spotlight time, now they need to go make rolls to find patches, or spend time patching their own progs to keep them up to date? And the piracy rules are just bonkers. The programs are practically free if you make 2-3 rolls, but then everything is 100% GM's discretion with no guidance. Seems to me that the only things to do would be disallow piracy entirely, or make it so you can pirate every program (which of course means that being a hacker is almost cost free). Otherwise, how could you decide whether a given prog is available or not in a fair and evenhanded way?

Hey Larme...

Can you point me to this? I see entries stating System and Response can go to 10 and above (page 171), and also programs that can exceed 7+ (page 112) both from Unwired... The example of Zurich Orbiatal has ratings that definitely exceed 7 for Firewall... Where does it say Firewall is the holy grail at 7? Just looking for referential verification...

Thanks

Right, because we've never, in the history of Shadowrun, been encouraged to play the game as anything but street-level-to-professional criminals, right? There's never been supplements aimed at rockers, gang members, Lone Star cops, military teams, Docwagon HRT squads, spies, smugglers, pirates, or anyone else that might need unusual gear.

Per Unwired... programs written by characters do not deteriorate... At least I though that I remember reading this, but cannot find it currently, anyone have a reference...

And of course, if you religiously patch the thing as it degrades, it will only take you a few days (1/2 Week) to bring it back up to code (so to speak) especially if you were competent enough to program that rating 12 software to begin with in only a few months time...

Well, warez DO degrade, because THEY do NOT get Updates.
So i would figure that self written stuff gets the same treatment.
Because everybody else and their mom will not wait and see.
The rest of the world will still think up new code which is better.
If you do not use your 1337-compensator, you will f41l soon.

Nice, Thanks Stahlseele...
I can't remember where I read that (and I have seen other forumites refer to it), and now I can't find it for the life of me... Maybe I was thinking about the metamorphic engine for Viruses...

See above.

Ok, so i was wrong.
Or the rules are wrong, because what i wrote seems right to me.

You're probably right, I was quoting from memory, not the text. But still, we're talking 7+, not all the way up to 40 At least, that's my take. My personal choice would be to just give banks and military a handwavium class of firewall. It doesn't roll a set number of dice, it just has no vulnerabilities exploitable by currently available hacking utilities. The only way to penetrate that class of firewall is to obtain an equally hot hacking utility (i.e. Quang Grade 12 from Neuromancer, or whatever it was called, the latest and greatest from the Chinese military, the kind of utility that's used to commit acts of war on enemy nations) or to obtain information about a specific vulnerability through means other than probing for weaknesses (such as, the programmer who created it left a back door that you can't find unless you know where to look). It would be silly to give Zurich Orbital an arbitrary number of dice, because even 40 dice can biff up and fail, and unless the world's money supply is essentially hack proof, nobody is going to trust digital currency. After all, you could pool 100 hackers or run an Agent Smith network and get a huge teamwork bonus, and drill into a 40 dice firewall, in theory...

Commercial software degrades because that is specifically built into the software as an anti-piracy technique.

Not because the Market is ever evolving? O.o
Firewalls deteriorate because Hackers learn new Tricks.
Viri and Attacks Deteriorate because firewalls that are updated do too.
Not the cause? O.o

unbe-fucking-lieveable . .

So open-source and self-coded programs OUGHT to degrade (or require patching, or whatever you want to call it), but it's up to the GM to enforce it at their discretion.

Thanks Muspellheimr... I KNEW the I read it somewhere...

That's why open source and piracy are such messed up rules. They ought not to be "available at the GM's discretion." They ought to be game tweaks listed as optional rules. Because if you use them, programs are free or extremely reduced in cost, it basically modifies the entire matrix to where there's no reason to pay for anything ever. IMO, if you use those rules as written, programs are written out of the game, we might as well assume that everyone has every program they want at whatever rating and not even roll or keep track.

Now, I can think of ways to make it work. For instance, rule that open source programs can only be rating 3 or below, since they don't have dedicated development teams or the latest technology being applied to them. Pirated programs should be limited to rating 4, because it takes time to crack each new iteration of copy protection, and by that time it's no longer the latest or greatest. Not saying it has to be like that, or that it's even realistic, it just introduces some sanity to those completely wide open rules. I'd also say that skillsofts, agents, pilots and autosofts are unavailable for pirating or open source, because those programs are the most expensive and most powerful, much too powerful for them to be available for pennies on the nuyen. Also, program options would be 100% unavailable on pirtated and open source progs, if you want those you've got to pay or write them yourself (and you DO want those if you wanna be 1337).

I'm not saying that my tweaks are the only way to do it, but I think a GM needs to create some basic framework in order to allow piracy and open source. Just leaving it RAW is leaving it as random, arbitrary, and probably not fair -- either the hacker gets an unfair boost by having most of his gear for free, or the hacker gets shafted because the GM randomly tells him that the prog he wants isn't available. With the standards I've suggested, these rules actually let everyone onto the matrix without paying out the ass. I don't like how a streetsam has to give up a fairly decent chunk of cash just to have a basic program suite on a basic commlink. It would be nice to let him and other non-hackers have their crapware programs for free. What wouldn't be nice is to let hackers have free rating 6 progs loaded with options running on cracked out commlinks. It would mean that almost all the cash they make from runs is disposable income, while every single other archetype has to spend it on things relevant to their profession more or less.

I had similar thought upon reading Unwired. Thankfully (??) my players aren't that motivated to learn the learns and actually figure out just how much they can abuse stuff.

- J.

From what I was reading...

Freeware IS capped at a rating of 4, and degrades... though they are indeed free...

Open Source Has neither Copy Protection nor Registration, degrades as normal, and is reduced in Cost by 50%... there are several options for either capping it or providing other options...

Neither of these things have managed to break our game at all... so I was wondering, why is this a problem...

As they both degrade over time you will either be A.) searching for replacements as you do now or B.) patching it yourself...

Neither of these gives the benefits/drawbacks of the regular programs (cracked (10% Cost, Degrades as normal) or Registered (Free Upgrades, Easier time to Track)) at the rating that are available... honestly, the best programs are gotten as cracked software... In My Opinion, the options for Freeware or Open Source are for those individuals that ARE NOT Hackers by nature, who don't need the SOTA Programs for their arsenal of tricks... And in fact, I would think that Open Source programs wold definitely NOT be used because of the very fact that they are OPEN SOURCE... there are too many things that can be tampered with on Open Source programs that just would not be a problem with Customized or Standard Software packages on the Market (Yes, I know that this is more Fulff than Crunch, But I think that it is still valid)

I don't think so, but am I missing something here?

Once again, I was talking from memory, thanks for looking it up I support freeware and open source being limited to 4 (without options), I think that works well as a way for non-hackers to go online and have some basic ability without spending all the money they need for their actual specialties. But I still think that degredation is bogus, I'll never bother with that level of bookkeeping as long as I play Shadowrun.

Amen to that. One of the strengths of the Lifestyle rules is that you don't have to track every last nuyen spent on drinks. You shouldn't need that level of bean-counting when dealing with the Matrix. I've experimented with rules to do away with counting bullets in combat, but those haven't worked out to date.

Bullets are pretty easy, I mean, just make a little check mark per time you shoot one. What I don't do, however, is clips. I really have no interest in dividing my bullet total by my clip size, then multiplying that by 5 to find out how much all the clips will cost, then marking down how many bullets are in clips and how many are loose. And let's not talk about what happens in combat when I eject my clip. Did I remember to pick it up or did I leave it on the ground? Am I short a few clips now, or do I have empty clips lying around that need more bullets? How about instead I just blow my head off with a shotgun >.< Bullets are no problem, I just assume that all bullets are loaded into clips, and clips are included in the cost of bullets.

But yeah, back to matrix issues. The problem is keeping track of time, per program, and then rolling to patch them on a per program basis. That essentially requires keeping a calendar for your Shadowrun game. You'd have to know that program x was patched on June 3, and you'd have to know the current date every day in order to know when it needed patching. No thank you. Like piracy and open source, degredation should have been included in an "optional" box. But hey, horrifying, suicide inducing matrix rules have a habit of being introduced as non-optional. Remember bandwidth rules from the most recent SR3 Matrix book? Of course, you can't really compare anything that happens now to the ultimate bean-counter shuffle of memory in SR3. That's good, at least. We no longer deal with computer memory that costs more than a sarariman's lifetime income, and still barely holds anything, so we should count ourselves as blessed when it comes to the matrix rules.

Easy to solve: just drop the toy guns and start using a real weapon that can use belt fed ammo

I like your answer. Bigger is ALWAYS better when it comes to guns.

Now that is Awesome...