Yes. Helmets and Shields, page 3127, SR4. This ruling should be extrapolated to incorporate other armor pieces, such as FFBA and PPP, although it is not expressly stated in the rules.

It is easier, however, to buy the Evo HEL suit and upgrade all the systems to 6. You'll have 2 slots left over, IIRC.

EVO HEL suit??? what book is that from?

But if you're using the PPP system, and add gel packs to the leg protectors and groin protectors, I don't think the intended interpretation of the rules is that you should get +2 armor, instead just the +1 that the gel packs give. The RAW may not specify, but I believe the intent of the developers is to give a maximum of +1 armor from the addition of gel packs.

It also seems to me that the same should apply to armor bonuses from reinforce spells, but I'm not well versed enough in the magic rules to make the argument.

1) I only used 1 gel pack.

2) The spell adds armor to the item, and you gain the armor of the item. Each item in question only has 1 case of Reinforcement, although it is within the realm of possiblity to have one piece with 20 instances of the Reinforce, as spells do not have limitations like that.

Arsenal. It's in the Gear section that immediately follows armor, and is in the Space Gear subsection. It is designed for orbital citizens to use, and has a self-attaching facemask with 5 minutes of air, in the event that you find yourself in the Great Deep. Theorhetically, that 5 minute air supply gives us effectively a full chemical seal for 5 minutes. With 1 of the 2 (IIRC) slots left, we can add 1 hour of air.

yeah, found it..But look at Bunker Gear At Arsenal p. 49 ( 6 point of Fire Resistance And 4 points of Chemical Protection already
on it..) add FFBA (full Body) and enchant it to max.. nuts!!

Armor Spell f6 = 6
Total (without shield spirits): 204(210)/191(199)
Total (with shield spirits): 276(282)/263(271)

These are our numbers thus far, unless anyone wants to debate it. Exempting additional castings on the same item (ie: Reinforec 4 times on the forearm guards), can anyone add to it?

The difference is that the HEL suit is sleeker and more asthetically pleasing, whereas the Bunker Gear is literally exactly what firemen wear. And, with just the HEL suit, you can get all special protections to 6, and have a little room to spare. Also, the HEL suit has (debatable, but it should) a full chemical seal. With its lower armor, the HEL suit is also available to characters of lower Body as well, and can still benefit from PPP and FFBA.

Who cares how much armor you can stack? The French knights' armors did not save them in Azincourt. As armor becomes heavier, the best counter moves from damage to immobilization. It's the same against vehicles: why try to blow it up at once when you can just jam the wheels/tracks/legs and watch it crawl helplessly? A bola launcher (or troll) is enough to bring down the heavy horseman of death. Then you can take your time to weld your way in, or just run away, depending on your goal.

First off, this thread was for the express purpose of getting high armor. Second off, this thread was for the express purpose of getting high armor, not making it feasible. Third off, the vehicle being used was a motorcycle with walker mode, with roughly the same size and stats of a troll, not a horseman. Fourthly, we can just go with an armor vest (f6 reinforced) and FFBA (f6 reinforced) for something like 30-ish armor, and barely any encumberance. And lastly, the French were french, which is why they lost. We're not french, which is why we win.

EDIT: That is not to say the French haven't given us good things, and it is not to say I don't like the French. It's just that when it comes to warfare, the French seem to always glitch. Always. And sometimes, they crit glitch. I can't find it right now, but there exists a video of the French special forces doing a training exercise, and every last one of them end up jumping into quicksand, one after another. they all get out, but it's hilarious to watch.

Were do you get this notion that reinforced armor value doesn't count for encubrance.

Where do you get the notion that it does? Honestly, I mainly extrapolate it from the Armor spell. And Mystic Armor. If that doesn't count for encumberance, why should Reinforce?

Becouse it actually raises the armor rating of the armor your wearing same as gel packs.

In that case, why doesn't Mystic Armor or the Armor spell? Those raise armor as well.

Doesn't it follow logic that since 2 instances of magical armor (from the core book) don't add to encumberance, a different spell effect (from a different book) shouldn't either?

And in any event, this has no bearing on the maximized above example of the full-VR user.

This? This is why GMs exist. To mitigate as much madness as possible.

The armor spell creates an forcefield around you, thats completdly different from making you worn 6/6 armor into 12/12 armor, i see reinfore working like gel pack i.e. you use the new armor rating to calculate encuprance. But i don't think that reinfocre is actually meant to be used to worn armor.

Madness? THIS...IS...SHADOWRUN!!

I see what your saying, but typically in Shadowrun any sort of magical upgrade never counts towards that purpose (same for Cyberware upgrades). It may have been furthur clarified in a FAQ or somewhere else in the book. Its been awhile since I last looked but considering the spell is simply making the fabic/plates/gel "harder" rather than actually adding bulk to the object worn its perfectly reasonable that it doesn't effect encumbrance. I myself have never thought to use Reinforce on armor worn, but I'll take a look at it later to see if the terminology forbids such a use.

Either way, even if you take out reinforce you can simply replace it with a equal number of armor spells. Or just run without it, I am sure somewhere in the neighborhood of 100+ armor will keep you safe and sound throughout the majority of your Shadowrun stint..

I was under the impression that armor that is layered was halved? By this I mean you have armored clothing at full but the armored jacket over the top only grants half value. Or am I using out of date books again? Also, were did the rule for 2xbody for armor come from?

2xBody is from the very first version of SR4 i think O.o
Of course you can wear MORE, but if you do, you get penalties.
And yes, Armor that is layered still gets halved at some point or other.

While we're at it: Did SR4,5 specify wether or not Implanted Armor and Mystical/Spell-Armor adds to encumberance/get's halved when layered/combined with worn/other Armor?

This is SR3, isn't it? In SR4, armor can't be layered, except special cases, but is not halved.

That is correct, the previous poster might be referring to the fact a few items actually add their bonus to the total amount. Such as a Helmet which can add +1/+2, this number increases your armor independent from the normal "stacking armor" rules.

Thus if you increase that bonus (via a Gel Pack for example) that addition is added to your total. If you have multiple items that add to a number (such as PPP items) and are able to modify those (again such as Gel Packs) then it will all end up stacking.

Example :

Body Armor 6/4
Body Armor with Gel pack 7/5
+ Helmet (+1/+2)
= 8/7

Body Armor 6/4
+ Helmet w/ Gel Pack (+2/+3)
= 8/7

Body Armor 6/4
Body Armor with Gel pack 7/5
+ Helmet w/ Gel Pack (+2/+3)
= 9/8

Each pack takes up [1] Capacity in the item, but since it is adding its bonus together with items that stack you reap the benefits. Interestingly enough nothing in SR4 states you can only take up Capacity once with any particular item, so if you have armor that has 10 slots, you can put 10 Gel Packs into these slots, getting +1/+1 each time. The bonus from a Gel Pack is simply a modification to the total armor value gained from a particular item, meaning it will continue to stack ad infinitum. Not everyone likes this since they feel its a cheap and risk free way to gain "free" armor, they however conveniently forget the fact that as soon you get shot/cut you WILL fall down since each Pack increases the "attacks" effective strength by +1 for knockdown purposes.

Thus no gain is without its risks

Crap, you're right, for some reason smart armour can't be reflective. You could still install radiation shielding 10 into it (as per Arsenal's "Special Armour Modification" rules) which would add 5 dice to your roll. So, 10 smart armour (halved to five) and 10 radiation shielding (halved to 5) means the Ares Heavy MP laser would pierce armour with 2 or more net hits... if your GM was feeling generous, he could interpret the smart armour rules so that it activates in that situation (after all, the blast would be over 10 DV) and let you roll the smart armour dice, adding to the laser's AP. Otherwise, you'd have to accept that as a vulnerability.

I'm using SR4 arsenal but couldn't one start with Military Armor medium -> 18F Heavy -> 20F
Medium is 14/12
Heavy is 16/14
and then add helmet for +2/+2

probably get bone lacing/ body replacement, or use an armor spell to stack on top.

As for encumbrance rules state since its custom made its 3x body. You can also add servos to reduce the effect since it has a massive number of slots used for capacity.

Pieces of PPP-system are considered as Helmet and Shield, (and considered as 1 armor), and every thing
you put at them stacks with enchantment of armor and helmet.
Armor,Helmet and 4 Pieces of PPP-system: Fire Resistance 6,Chemical Protection 6, Nonconductivity 6, Insulation 6

Well, as long as I am around, you can count on 1 GM to allow this - as long as it is per RAW.

Hmm Sorry I asked this questions...though I did get the answer I was looking for on page one. Thanks folks....

I'll be perfectly honest, the encumbrance system in SR4 seems to have a few gaps. Primarily, shields is where I start to have exceptions to the rules. I personally can't justify a shield contributing to armor based encumbrance.

Follow with me for a bit here.

My prime issue with encumbrance with armor is that it stems mostly from the body stat. I read through the attribute description trying to divine why body would be applicable to encumbrance.



I've bolded what I felt are the descriptors of body that would be related to encumbrance. I believe that both of them together make a reasonable encumbrance definition. Simply that armor beyond your body x 2 is just considered too bulky or heavy for your frame to hold. However shields begin to cross the line of what is reasonable. A riot shield is typically only 5-6 pounds (2.5-3kg) and it is strapped to your forearm. Since it provides +6 impact armor, you're encumbered wearing it if you have less than 3 body, and that's without considering any armor. The problem is that armor encumbrance, by the rules, is solely determined by armor value. Yes strength plays a part in encumbrance, but none of the game charts does anything like discuss weights. This means that in many cases, as the book states, if they players are carrying a reasonable amount of gear there's no reason to worry about encumbrance. So why are there such easy to apply encumbrance rules for armor when there's such a relaxed attitude towards gear encumbrance?

Just imagine a typical riot control cop. Think any old cop basically, since they're all trained to take part in riot control. They have their shields, but they are still quite capable and effective at using their other arm. Going by Shadowrun rules, they would need to have 9 body to be able to use that gear without encumbrance. If we assume that the average cop has 4 body, then the cop is still suffering a -5 to both agility and reaction. This would undoubtedly drop the cop's agility and reaction to 0 or lower, making it exceedingly difficult just to hit something that is standing still. From video I've seen of riot cops, it doesn't look like they have issues swinging about their clubs.

Form-fitted body armor is counted as half armor for encumbrance. Why shouldn't there be a difference for shields?

I still somehow think Body+Strength would have been better for the Armor Stuff than Body x 2 . .

I like Sigma's approach. If I were to design the system, honestly, I might just cap all worn armour at BOD + STR, with no exceptions except custom-fitted armour, which would be ten times as expensive and half as cumbersome. Dermal plating would weigh you down, as would FFBA, coveralls, or any of these things. The only form of carryable protection that wouldn't encumber you would be a shield, and that's because you're already giving up use of an arm for it.

But that's not RAW. RAW is what poor Night Jackal wanted, and now s/he's rightfully terrified.

Me too, as well as allowing everythink to stack.

Further, I don't agree with the penalty, and I think this is partially a flaw of the number of attributes. I can understand and agree with the agility penalty to an extent. Bulkier armor IS going to restrict your movement and make finer control harder. When I disagree with this, it's mostly because I'm thinking of some of the agility based skills and the fine control required for them. For a lot of them, it makes sense, until you get to the some of the larger firearms. The finesse in firearms is steadying your aim. The better your agility, the less gun shake you should have when aiming. Recoil partially addresses this issue, but recoil is a matter of post-shot, not pre-shot. If you give someone a rifle they will, in most cases, have better aim kneeling than standing and better aim laying prone than kneeling. They can compensate better for the weight and small movements don't cause as large of a shake while prone compared to standing.

What I don't agree with is the reaction penalty. This is because some reactions are going to be based more on strength, and some on finesse. The linking of reaction and agility as an encumbrance penalty implies that encumbrance is one of finesse, not of ability. My biggest gripe is that when I think of reaction as a separate stat, the application of reaction and how effective is going to be dependent on your strength, agility, and to an extent body (using SR attributes). I may have awesome reaction, as defined by reflexes. Very fast, but without agility those reflexes won't mean jack in trying to react to whatever it is I'm reacting to. Likewise, if someone throws a punch at me and I can react to it and block it, that doesn't necessarily mean success if I don't have the strength to negate or reduce the force of the blow, or a body that can absorb the remaining force.

Reaction is a bit too fuzzy of an attribute, but like with any combat oriented game, initiative rules, and reaction is necessary for initiative.

I would like to add that I don't necessarily disagree with a Reaction stat or the number of stats in this game, it just seems that Reaction is a terribly applied attribute. It is used to derive initiative, and only linked to the driving and dodge skills, and has few to no uses beyond that. I would also like to express frustration at how overloaded agility is.

Obviously the same for myself, as long as its RAW I am more than willing to go with it. Its never a problem in my games anyway

I go mostly RAW but if a rule brakes fluff I some times house rule around it. But insane armor stacking can happen in my games but its mostly pointless what you've got all this armor on you it makes you unable to move and you in VR well some thugs come in and start takings it off before iceing you. Thoe onlyadavatage is in direct combat and thats not too big. Magic is there for a reason.

I would also suggest that given that said armor is apparently more structurally sound than a bunker, tossing a kilo or two of C-4 into it would do interesting things, chunky salsa wise.

Ah-hahahaha!

Thugs taking the armor while you're in VR? Hahahaha!

Ok, you're troll-sized (full mobility of a troll, only better: 8 Str, 8 Bod, 10+ Agi, 9+ Rea), you have 200+ armor, you have a MINIGUN in your chest, a 15+ initiative, 5 IP, and you think thugs will be able to steal things from you?

No sir, I think not.

See the above post, and rethink getting close enough to "toss in" some C-4.