Wow. I just read the whole thread, and any doubts I had about buying the adventure are gone. It sounds great, just a shame that so much hate had to be front loaded, I'd surprised if people look at more than the first couple pages. I bought Running Wild already and that about tapped out my funds for this paycheck. I'd make an exception if I was running a game currently, but I'm enjoying my first chance in years to sit down and be a character again. Once I do pick it up I'll try to come back and post something nice.
Also I'd like to hand it to Catalyst for not bowing to the pressure of That Fucking Site. TvTropes.com has some interesting info, but by and large I find it detrimental to just enjoying the basic idea and presentation of a story. Is it any less pretentious saying a story hinges on a Xanatos Gambit than someone pointing out being Wagnerian? One is based off a cartoon show, that's about it. Please, in the future don't be afraid to tell a story the way you feel it needs to be told. Powerful NPCs are a part of Shadowrun, no one bitches that they can't cap Lofwyr on his way to work.
I'd like to take AH's chocolate cake a bit further and apply it to packaged scenarios. No bitching about them being linear. Of course they're linear, you don't but a car and bitch because it doesn't have altitude controls. It goes back and forth, and turns. There is no up and down. If you want something that does that, build it your damn self.
Sorry for the anger, I'm just getting sick of all the couch potato literary analysis that goes on now that my group has found TvTropes. Folks, it makes you sound as interesting as a recital of Youtube comments.
Full Version: Dawn of the Artifacts I : Dusk
QUOTE
Wow. I just read the whole thread, and any doubts I had about buying the adventure are gone. It sounds great, just a shame that so much hate had to be front loaded, I'd surprised if people look at more than the first couple pages. I bought Running Wild already and that about tapped out my funds for this paycheck. I'd make an exception if I was running a game currently, but I'm enjoying my first chance in years to sit down and be a character again. Once I do pick it up I'll try to come back and post something nice.
So I decide I don't like the thing based on what I've heard about it here - while you are already convinced you'll be singing a happy song for it based on what you've heard here. Why is my prejudiced dislike any more shameful than your unqualified premature adoration?
QUOTE
Powerful NPCs are a part of Shadowrun, no one bitches that they can't cap Lofwyr on his way to work.
No one expects to ride alongside Lofwyr for the actual run. Powerful background characters of the Sixth World are fine - so long as they stay in the background. It's not the concept of IEs that I hate, it's the implementation of them in the three adventures written about them so far (although I found the first Harlequin less offensive) where the PCs' actions really don't matter to the overall story.
You can have your opinions, I'm just giving mine and pointing out that there are plenty of seats taken on the hate train. Go ahead and not like it!
You can even prefer not to have high powered characters in your games. But that is a little short sighted, isn't it? Should your PCs always be the most powerful characters in play? Should the GM never run set pieces, or put players in a situation that they can't get themselves out of alone? To say that seems like flat storytelling. I don't expect that I will need an Immortal Elf to bail me out of gang trouble on the way back from Stuffer Shack. But on a trip to Lagos? It's a possibility, especially when the ambush may have been more aimed at her than the players. Of course I don't know the set up, but I have a certain amount of trust that the devs aren't brain dead so I'll go off of that.
You can even prefer not to have high powered characters in your games. But that is a little short sighted, isn't it? Should your PCs always be the most powerful characters in play? Should the GM never run set pieces, or put players in a situation that they can't get themselves out of alone? To say that seems like flat storytelling. I don't expect that I will need an Immortal Elf to bail me out of gang trouble on the way back from Stuffer Shack. But on a trip to Lagos? It's a possibility, especially when the ambush may have been more aimed at her than the players. Of course I don't know the set up, but I have a certain amount of trust that the devs aren't brain dead so I'll go off of that.
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jul 21 2009, 09:20 PM) 
You can have your opinions, I'm just giving mine and pointing out that there are plenty of seats taken on the hate train. Go ahead and not like it!
You can even prefer not to have high powered characters in your games. But that is a little short sighted, isn't it? Should your PCs always be the most powerful characters in play? Should the GM never run set pieces, or put players in a situation that they can't get themselves out of alone? To say that seems like flat storytelling. I don't expect that I will need an Immortal Elf to bail me out of gang trouble on the way back from Stuffer Shack. But on a trip to Lagos? It's a possibility, especially when the ambush may have been more aimed at her than the players. Of course I don't know the set up, but I have a certain amount of trust that the devs aren't brain dead so I'll go off of that.
You can even prefer not to have high powered characters in your games. But that is a little short sighted, isn't it? Should your PCs always be the most powerful characters in play? Should the GM never run set pieces, or put players in a situation that they can't get themselves out of alone? To say that seems like flat storytelling. I don't expect that I will need an Immortal Elf to bail me out of gang trouble on the way back from Stuffer Shack. But on a trip to Lagos? It's a possibility, especially when the ambush may have been more aimed at her than the players. Of course I don't know the set up, but I have a certain amount of trust that the devs aren't brain dead so I'll go off of that.
Not to rain on your parade, but the scene is written to make the elf saving the runenrs mandatory. Do you understand that? No matter what you do, no matter what tactics, gear, ideas you have, the ghouls keep coming until the NPC saves you. That's railroading in its worst form - rendering player actions obsolete.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 21 2009, 09:25 PM)
Not to rain on your parade, but the scene is written to make the elf saving the runenrs mandatory. Do you understand that? No matter what you do, no matter what tactics, gear, ideas you have, the ghouls keep coming until the NPC saves you. That's railroading in its worst form - rendering player actions obsolete.
If I may offer a different perspective (and I agree that player actions should matter), you can use combat scenes with a "safe" end to bring combat-heavy groups to their limit. Blast away as much enemies as you can, lick wounds later.
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 21 2009, 09:34 PM)
If I may offer a different perspective (and I agree that player actions should matter), you can use combat scenes with a "safe" end to bring combat-heavy groups to their limit. Blast away as much enemies as you can, lick wounds later.
Who cares when the outcome is already scripted? Why even play it out if your actions do not matter and won't change anything? Just let the fanboy DM describe how the NPC saves your character.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 21 2009, 11:43 AM)
Who cares when the outcome is already scripted? Why even play it out if your actions do not matter and won't change anything? Just let the fanboy DM describe how the NPC saves your character.
Ahh, the classic Storytelling vs Game question. I take neither side.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 21 2009, 01:43 PM)
Who cares when the outcome is already scripted? Why even play it out if your actions do not matter and won't change anything? Just let the fanboy DM describe how the NPC saves your character.
I think, perhaps, the point is being missed here. It would be ooc for Frost to simply announce at the initial meet: "Hey, I'm a super-cool mage." It is very IC for her to hide her nature from the runners. The purpose of the scene is for Frosty to lose her cool (no pun intended) and display her abilities, and the players to have a nice "hey we're working for Frosty" moment. It could certainly as Frosty displaying her abilities near the beginning of the combat, just because she is sick and tired of all the Lagos crap. The players might say, "hey we could've handled a bunch of ghouls" and perhaps they could have, the point is for Frosty to show she's a Mage. Then, after losing her cool, she confesses that she "really shouldn't have done that" and explains that she must refrain from further use of her Magical talents so as not to draw attention from the "wrong kind of people" that may be watching in Lagos.
Now, if your players aren't really familiar with the JP Poster people and SR lore in general, this might not mean anything to them. Perhaps then you swap for a different employer, or you run the scene and give them some context (eg. "You've heard of a runner named Frosty, she's got a real good street rep."). Either way, the scene is tangential to the overall plot of the adventure, serving only to show "hey you're working for Frosty!" I think it's overblowing things more than a little to claim that it "ruins everything." If you really don't like it, the entire thing can be cut out of the adventure without a terrible amount of difficulty. Frosty can be knocking unconscious via some other means, or not at all if you prefer.
Fuchs, man, moderation. How many times does it happen? Could it maybe be a scripted showcase event? Could it be, God help us, storytelling?
Is it the fact that it happens in combat that bugs you? Or is it that the players should be able to handle any number of ghouls under any circumstances? Or are you so bent on hating powerful NPCs that you're willing to rewrite the whole thing? So tossing Frosty in the scene wasn't chocolate in your peanut butter, there is nothing inherently wrong with it and it bugs the shit out of me that people are pretending that it's a capital offense.
That said everyone is entitled to their opinions, as long as those opinions are not misstatements of fact.
Is it the fact that it happens in combat that bugs you? Or is it that the players should be able to handle any number of ghouls under any circumstances? Or are you so bent on hating powerful NPCs that you're willing to rewrite the whole thing? So tossing Frosty in the scene wasn't chocolate in your peanut butter, there is nothing inherently wrong with it and it bugs the shit out of me that people are pretending that it's a capital offense.
That said everyone is entitled to their opinions, as long as those opinions are not misstatements of fact.
As people may have guessed, my playstyle as a GM is that everyone is on the same footing--that doesn't mean everyone is equal, but rather that we all play by the same rules. This style is perfectly compatible with completely free-form adventures, or scripted scenes. My stats for Jane made her more powerful than the team in certain regards, but much less powerful in others. She's not a hacker, a gun bunny, and combat driving isn't her thing--she's a mage and one capable of doing things that most runners never even think about.
That said, the runners can certainly effect the outcome of the ambush. Here's how my team did it:
Mage throws a physical barrier to the right and the gun bunnies toss some freeze foam grenades to the left. They effectively limited how the ghouls would be able to approach them--funneling them to make it easier for people to handle. Melee adept goes all ginsu action, dual wielding swords and stands behind them while the gun bunnies take turns with suppressive fire up front. (Did we mention that heavy weapons are legal to carry in Lagos?)
Yes, eventually some of the ghouls wise up and realize that charging down the "Alley of Destruction" is a bad idea--they go up into buildings and jump down into the middle of Jane and the technomancer. (One ghoul failed his jump check and ended up tripping over the upper edge of the physical barrier.) Jane does her bit, and goes overboard, taking down not just the ghouls next to her, but all of them in the general area. Jane passes out, mage makes snarky comment, runners reload and start moving.
Did the runners feel upstaged? No. Did the scene play as written? Yes.
Your experiences may vary, but that's how I ran it.
That said, the runners can certainly effect the outcome of the ambush. Here's how my team did it:
Mage throws a physical barrier to the right and the gun bunnies toss some freeze foam grenades to the left. They effectively limited how the ghouls would be able to approach them--funneling them to make it easier for people to handle. Melee adept goes all ginsu action, dual wielding swords and stands behind them while the gun bunnies take turns with suppressive fire up front. (Did we mention that heavy weapons are legal to carry in Lagos?)
Yes, eventually some of the ghouls wise up and realize that charging down the "Alley of Destruction" is a bad idea--they go up into buildings and jump down into the middle of Jane and the technomancer. (One ghoul failed his jump check and ended up tripping over the upper edge of the physical barrier.) Jane does her bit, and goes overboard, taking down not just the ghouls next to her, but all of them in the general area. Jane passes out, mage makes snarky comment, runners reload and start moving.
Did the runners feel upstaged? No. Did the scene play as written? Yes.
Your experiences may vary, but that's how I ran it.
How many got infected by HMHVV?
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jul 21 2009, 10:27 PM)
Fuchs, man, moderation. How many times does it happen? Could it maybe be a scripted showcase event? Could it be, God help us, storytelling?
Is it the fact that it happens in combat that bugs you? Or is it that the players should be able to handle any number of ghouls under any circumstances? Or are you so bent on hating powerful NPCs that you're willing to rewrite the whole thing? So tossing Frosty in the scene wasn't chocolate in your peanut butter, there is nothing inherently wrong with it and it bugs the shit out of me that people are pretending that it's a capital offense.
That said everyone is entitled to their opinions, as long as those opinions are not misstatements of fact.
Is it the fact that it happens in combat that bugs you? Or is it that the players should be able to handle any number of ghouls under any circumstances? Or are you so bent on hating powerful NPCs that you're willing to rewrite the whole thing? So tossing Frosty in the scene wasn't chocolate in your peanut butter, there is nothing inherently wrong with it and it bugs the shit out of me that people are pretending that it's a capital offense.
That said everyone is entitled to their opinions, as long as those opinions are not misstatements of fact.
Check around a bit, you'll soon learn that pet DMPCs of such power are among the most common "Crappy DM mistakes" in every system.
Three faced possible infection, and Jane introduced them to a contact in Lagos--a hedge wizard. They ended up wearing beetles which were half-burrowed into their skin (Similar to Blood Fetishes) to sustain a cure disease spell. After 2 weeks, the beetles died and fell out.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 21 2009, 04:08 PM)
Check around a bit, you'll soon learn that pet DMPCs of such power are among the most common "Crappy DM mistakes" in every system.
I've been around for many years. Long enough to see a common story telling tactic when it shows up. It might not be your favorite; but it can be done, and done right. I've played in games where it was done wrong. I'll admit that in my many years of gaming I've GMed and played it wrong myself. But I've also seen characters share deep bonds with high powered NPCs that may have saved their bacon at some point and lived to return the favor.
As experienced as you are, can you admit that it might work for some people? Is it really a development crime to include someone without stats that's on your side?
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 21 2009, 11:10 PM)
Three faced possible infection, and Jane introduced them to a contact in Lagos--a hedge wizard. They ended up wearing beetles which were half-burrowed into their skin (Similar to Blood Fetishes) to sustain a cure disease spell. After 2 weeks, the beetles died and fell out.
eeewww <.< . .
leave it to you to cure something disgusting with something even more disgusting x.x
Stahl--Well, yeah, you may avoid a horrible fate, but there has to be a little pain, even if it's just short-term. It was based off a lot of the fluff text that African hedge wizards were able to help alleviate the ravages of VITAS on their native lands--seems to say that cure disease and variants would be a common spell.
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 21 2009, 03:10 PM)
Three faced possible infection, and Jane introduced them to a contact in Lagos--a hedge wizard. They ended up wearing beetles which were half-burrowed into their skin (Similar to Blood Fetishes) to sustain a cure disease spell. After 2 weeks, the beetles died and fell out.
Cool stuff. I'll have to remember this one.
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 21 2009, 10:10 PM)
Three faced possible infection, and Jane introduced them to a contact in Lagos--a hedge wizard. They ended up wearing beetles which were half-burrowed into their skin (Similar to Blood Fetishes) to sustain a cure disease spell. After 2 weeks, the beetles died and fell out.
I take it from that, that you skipped over the actual HMHVV-III mechanics and just free-formed a cure?
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jul 22 2009, 07:26 AM)
I've been around for many years. Long enough to see a common story telling tactic when it shows up. It might not be your favorite; but it can be done, and done right. I've played in games where it was done wrong. I'll admit that in my many years of gaming I've GMed and played it wrong myself. But I've also seen characters share deep bonds with high powered NPCs that may have saved their bacon at some point and lived to return the favor.
As experienced as you are, can you admit that it might work for some people? Is it really a development crime to include someone without stats that's on your side?
As experienced as you are, can you admit that it might work for some people? Is it really a development crime to include someone without stats that's on your side?
Encounters of Arbitary Difficulty that can only be escaped by a GM NPC suck on so many levels. If the players thing they are actually going to die, they are going to start using any number of highly dangerous, expensive and illegal one shot tricks to actually get out of it, because being alive an with cops chasing you for nerve gassing a city block with seven-7 is better than being dead.
The bit that REALLY sucks about the Deus Ex Machina part is that after the PCs use their really expensive tricks, it still accomplishes nothing and the DM NPC has to save them. Plus whats more the rest of the adventure is almost certainly a write off for the street sammie and the rigger as they'll be lucky to make any money on the deal and probably lose it.
When playing an encounter as intended (fight) results in frustration (inability to accomplish anything) and your character development going backwards (expenditure of limited resources in an effort not to die) is worse than 'just giving up in frustration and going to play smash bros until the DMNPC saves us' It just gives things a feeling of absolute pointlessness and futility to the encounter.
It is a really dangerous thing to do
QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 22 2009, 08:15 AM)
I take it from that, that you skipped over the actual HMHVV-III mechanics and just free-formed a cure?
I love it when people play test things without using the actual mechanics presented. It leads to D&D 4th ed skill challenges.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jul 21 2009, 06:06 PM)
Encounters of Arbitary Difficulty that can only be escaped by a GM NPC suck on so many levels. If the players thing they are actually going to die, they are going to start using any number of highly dangerous, expensive and illegal one shot tricks to actually get out of it, because being alive an with cops chasing you for nerve gassing a city block with seven-7 is better than being dead.
The bit that REALLY sucks about the Deus Ex Machina part is that after the PCs use their really expensive tricks, it still accomplishes nothing and the DM NPC has to save them. Plus whats more the rest of the adventure is almost certainly a write off for the street sammie and the rigger as they'll be lucky to make any money on the deal and probably lose it.
When playing an encounter as intended (fight) results in frustration (inability to accomplish anything) and your character development going backwards (expenditure of limited resources in an effort not to die) is worse than 'just giving up in frustration and going to play smash bros until the DMNPC saves us' It just gives things a feeling of absolute pointlessness and futility to the encounter.
It is a really dangerous thing to do
The bit that REALLY sucks about the Deus Ex Machina part is that after the PCs use their really expensive tricks, it still accomplishes nothing and the DM NPC has to save them. Plus whats more the rest of the adventure is almost certainly a write off for the street sammie and the rigger as they'll be lucky to make any money on the deal and probably lose it.
When playing an encounter as intended (fight) results in frustration (inability to accomplish anything) and your character development going backwards (expenditure of limited resources in an effort not to die) is worse than 'just giving up in frustration and going to play smash bros until the DMNPC saves us' It just gives things a feeling of absolute pointlessness and futility to the encounter.
It is a really dangerous thing to do
The whole scenario sounds like more a few moments of nuisance cut short by an ill timed display of power. If your players spend a few rounds shooting ghouls and then feel they are forced to make every last ditch attempt to save their lives, you might be running too tough of a game. There is a big difference between an over powered GM run character swinging in to save the players during the final showdown and a powerful NPC admitting that she's as tired of a BS random encounter as everyone else in the party. In fact, done right it can endearing to the players. Imagine that.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jul 21 2009, 06:06 PM)
I love it when people play test things without using the actual mechanics presented. It leads to D&D 4th ed skill challenges.
You're right. Play testers should test every facet of the game every time they play. What's the point in focusing on specific books or rules?
And yes, skill challenges suck.
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jul 22 2009, 01:18 AM)
You're right. Play testers should test every facet of the game every time they play. What's the point in focusing on specific books or rules?
Sorry, I genuinely don't know how to read that.
Was that meant to be sarcastic or do you agree that playtesters should stick to the RAW?
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 21 2009, 03:15 PM)
I take it from that, that you skipped over the actual HMHVV-III mechanics and just free-formed a cure?
Nope, they made the rolls. I run a RAW table, though without the sense of confrontation that I have been picking up recently in this and other threads. As my descriptions have shown, the players took the challenges they were given and did the best they could. The beetles sustained a Cure Disease spell on them for two weeks and then faded. During that time, they dealt with the problem of astral barriers etc, but took it as a necessary evil to improve their chances of not becoming a ghoul. (Note: By my reading, Magic is not a "Protective System" and therefore is not impacted by Penetration. If that is wrong, I have not been told so.)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams)
I love it when people play test things without using the actual mechanics presented. It leads to D&D 4th ed skill challenges.
I resent the implication that my team didn't playtest the material appropriately, but can understand your frustration. No, my team did not playtest the rules from Runner's Companion. Yes, my team did playtest Dusk, and faced the very real threat of Infection.
Both--The team faced the rolls, applying the mechanics as laid out in Runners Companion and Augmentation. (Running Wild was not out when they were playtesting, and the RW mechanics are a cut/paste from Runner's Companion.) That said, each of them lost some Essence, I would have to ask them for exact figures, but none were Infected. Remember, you have to lose 1 full point of Essence, failing every test, to become Infected. There were no Glitches on the tests which I could have ruled would give them the Carrier Quality.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jul 21 2009, 05:35 PM)
[ Spoiler ]
It certainly sounds to me that the combat should be overwhelming, considering that the other parts of the adventure call for the DM NPC to step in when fights are beyond the parties abilities.
If you read my post above, I showed how my team faced that scene. I don't recall any other parts of the adventure calling for her to step in, so please, tell me when they were.
QUOTE (Malachi @ Jul 21 2009, 03:22 PM)
I think, perhaps, the point is being missed here. It would be ooc for Frost to simply announce at the initial meet: "Hey, I'm a super-cool mage." It is very IC for her to hide her nature from the runners. The purpose of the scene is for Frosty to lose her cool (no pun intended) and display her abilities, and the players to have a nice "hey we're working for Frosty" moment. It could certainly as Frosty displaying her abilities near the beginning of the combat, just because she is sick and tired of all the Lagos crap. The players might say, "hey we could've handled a bunch of ghouls" and perhaps they could have, the point is for Frosty to show she's a Mage. Then, after losing her cool, she confesses that she "really shouldn't have done that" and explains that she must refrain from further use of her Magical talents so as not to draw attention from the "wrong kind of people" that may be watching in Lagos.
I will say that Malachi has captured the spirit of the scene here.
If a GM doesn't like this scene, then the adventure itself will not be impacted in any way to remove the scene altogether. In fact, players who choose to follow one of the alternative paths to the ending that are presented will not play through this scene at all (and there are several alternative paths to the ending that are written into the adventure, and undoubtably some teams will find even more creative paths to the end). If that means they're a bit surprised to learn Frosty's a mage in Adventure #2, so be it. If the GM decides to pull the scene altogether, then the team will remain unaware of Frosty's magical abilities (unless the GM chooses to have her reveal it elsewhere). Of course, the GM could play the scene where the runners are able to handle the ghouls on their own, and Frosty never needs to step in--just a great, knockdown fight in a place where no one cares if you decide to napalm a few buildings, or Frosty could step in after the fight, if a few PCs get splattered by Ghoul Guts, with a special "cure HMHVV" spell (which the GM could even have her offer to teach the PC magician, using Frosty as a good contact)... heck, a creative GM can run all four adventures without once revealing Frosty's a mage; or by inserting an NPC they prefer in her place.
There's no "right" or "wrong" way to play it, as long as the players have fun.
How many of them had to burn Edge to avoid infection? How many spent Edge to re-roll failures and knock the last 1 or 2 points of Power off.
You have to manage at least one day where you get the Power down to 0 to survive, I can't see Cure Disease giving more than 7 or 8 dice. Statistically it is unlikely, even with Cure Disease, unless you are a Troll PhysAd.
Did they use O-Cells?
I can't imagine that these rules have seen much playtesting so how it played out in Dusk is important.
You have to manage at least one day where you get the Power down to 0 to survive, I can't see Cure Disease giving more than 7 or 8 dice. Statistically it is unlikely, even with Cure Disease, unless you are a Troll PhysAd.
Did they use O-Cells?
I can't imagine that these rules have seen much playtesting so how it played out in Dusk is important.
They all spent Edge during the series of tests, none Burned to my knowledge. We talked through the mechanics and I believe most spent Edge on the first test and then again towards the end of the test to drive the Power down.
Beyond the Beetles, each of them tried other folk remedies (teas and pastes made from bugs, moss, etc.). The remedies had absolutely no game effect, cost a handful of naira, but seemed to have a placebo effect for one player who rolled better when he ate a paste made from a list of exotic, yet non-magical ingredients. (Dirt from the bottom of a blessed spring, a virgin's first menses, mashed up locusts, and a fruit that none of them could translate.) Yes, I'm always willing to provide flavor text for players who want to try something different.
Beyond the Beetles, each of them tried other folk remedies (teas and pastes made from bugs, moss, etc.). The remedies had absolutely no game effect, cost a handful of naira, but seemed to have a placebo effect for one player who rolled better when he ate a paste made from a list of exotic, yet non-magical ingredients. (Dirt from the bottom of a blessed spring, a virgin's first menses, mashed up locusts, and a fruit that none of them could translate.) Yes, I'm always willing to provide flavor text for players who want to try something different.
You know....I need to check the copy on my lap top, but...were there not stats given for Frosty in Battlerun? Just drop the mech piloting skills, and give her an Initiate grade 8...and she should be good to go! 
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jul 22 2009, 02:45 AM)
[...]a special "cure HMHVV" spell[...]
What's so special about a spell with restricted target?
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 22 2009, 02:36 AM)
By my reading, Magic is not a "Protective System" and therefore is not impacted by Penetration.
It's not. Penetration only affeccts external gear (implants go free, too) and pharmaceuticals - the latter doesn't help against HMHVV, anyway.
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jul 22 2009, 02:45 AM)
I will say that Malachi has captured the spirit of the scene here.
If a GM doesn't like this scene, then the adventure itself will not be impacted in any way to remove the scene altogether. In fact, players who choose to follow one of the alternative paths to the ending that are presented will not play through this scene at all (and there are several alternative paths to the ending that are written into the adventure, and undoubtably some teams will find even more creative paths to the end). If that means they're a bit surprised to learn Frosty's a mage in Adventure #2, so be it. If the GM decides to pull the scene altogether, then the team will remain unaware of Frosty's magical abilities (unless the GM chooses to have her reveal it elsewhere). Of course, the GM could play the scene where the runners are able to handle the ghouls on their own, and Frosty never needs to step in--just a great, knockdown fight in a place where no one cares if you decide to napalm a few buildings, or Frosty could step in after the fight, if a few PCs get splattered by Ghoul Guts, with a special "cure HMHVV" spell (which the GM could even have her offer to teach the PC magician, using Frosty as a good contact)... heck, a creative GM can run all four adventures without once revealing Frosty's a mage; or by inserting an NPC they prefer in her place.
There's no "right" or "wrong" way to play it, as long as the players have fun.
If a GM doesn't like this scene, then the adventure itself will not be impacted in any way to remove the scene altogether. In fact, players who choose to follow one of the alternative paths to the ending that are presented will not play through this scene at all (and there are several alternative paths to the ending that are written into the adventure, and undoubtably some teams will find even more creative paths to the end). If that means they're a bit surprised to learn Frosty's a mage in Adventure #2, so be it. If the GM decides to pull the scene altogether, then the team will remain unaware of Frosty's magical abilities (unless the GM chooses to have her reveal it elsewhere). Of course, the GM could play the scene where the runners are able to handle the ghouls on their own, and Frosty never needs to step in--just a great, knockdown fight in a place where no one cares if you decide to napalm a few buildings, or Frosty could step in after the fight, if a few PCs get splattered by Ghoul Guts, with a special "cure HMHVV" spell (which the GM could even have her offer to teach the PC magician, using Frosty as a good contact)... heck, a creative GM can run all four adventures without once revealing Frosty's a mage; or by inserting an NPC they prefer in her place.
There's no "right" or "wrong" way to play it, as long as the players have fun.
Anyone with money enough to hire a team of runners and full essence is a mage or adept (or something like a drake, which qualifies usually for either) until proven otherwise. That's a basic rule in the shadows of the 6th world. I can't think of any team that would be surprised by Frosty being a mage.
and of course I can (and will) change a run anyway I please, but fact is: This run was wrtten to showcase how cool Frosty is. And fact is that such showing off by NPCs is rarely fun for players.
And there should always be the chance that the runners could pierce her masking. Should be a chance...
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 22 2009, 09:04 AM)
(...) This run was wrtten to showcase how cool Frosty is. And fact is that such showing off by NPCs is rarely fun for players.
Even if that were the case, at least the writer had fun. Are you saying this a bad thing? Look at it this way: After a long, stressful day during deadline-crunch, the writer felt satisfied with her/his work. He/She came home, and did NOT yell at his/her spouse. In turn, his/her spouse did NOT turn to drown the sorrow of a failing relationship in alcohol and meth. Thus, he/she did NOT neglect their children, who then did NOT stay up too late and forget to feed the dog. The dog then did NOT run off and, in its despair suffer a resurgence of its innermost feral instincts and maul a toddler, therefore it did NOT have to be put in the slammer, where it would escape just minutes before its scheduled lethal injection, harboring nothing but its unnerring, doglike desire to return to its keepers... and a mutated, vicious and uncurable form of rabies. Therefore, it did NOT plunge, tail wagging happily, into the arms of a sad, neglected child starving for love, thereby infecting it, and dooming us all.
You see, this adventure may just have saved all our western civilization, yet you keep piling hate on it.
I ask you: WHY DO YOU HATE FREEDOM?!
Oh dear, I fear I may have sprained something laughing at the last post.
I'm going for a lie down.
I'm going for a lie down.
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 22 2009, 02:02 AM)
They all spent Edge during the series of tests, none Burned to my knowledge. We talked through the mechanics and I believe most spent Edge on the first test and then again towards the end of the test to drive the Power down.
Beyond the Beetles, each of them tried other folk remedies (teas and pastes made from bugs, moss, etc.). The remedies had absolutely no game effect, cost a handful of naira, but seemed to have a placebo effect for one player who rolled better when he ate a paste made from a list of exotic, yet non-magical ingredients. (Dirt from the bottom of a blessed spring, a virgin's first menses, mashed up locusts, and a fruit that none of them could translate.) Yes, I'm always willing to provide flavor text for players who want to try something different.
Beyond the Beetles, each of them tried other folk remedies (teas and pastes made from bugs, moss, etc.). The remedies had absolutely no game effect, cost a handful of naira, but seemed to have a placebo effect for one player who rolled better when he ate a paste made from a list of exotic, yet non-magical ingredients. (Dirt from the bottom of a blessed spring, a virgin's first menses, mashed up locusts, and a fruit that none of them could translate.) Yes, I'm always willing to provide flavor text for players who want to try something different.
Thanks for that.
So it was far from a cake-walk then? In fact it sounds like the hardest part of the whole scenario if they all spent 2 points of Edge to survive and still lost somewhere in the region of 0.8 Essence.
Wonder how that run would have gone with half the team suddenly wanting to eat the other half?
What would happen if frosty were to be infected?
Or one of them becoming infected without changing, but still being able to transmit the disease?
What would happen if frosty were to be infected?
Or one of them becoming infected without changing, but still being able to transmit the disease?
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 22 2009, 12:29 PM)
Wonder how that run would have gone with half the team suddenly wanting to eat the other half?
What would happen if frosty were to be infected?
Or one of them becoming infected without changing, but still being able to transmit the disease?
What would happen if frosty were to be infected?
Or one of them becoming infected without changing, but still being able to transmit the disease?
Frosty can't be infected. Immune to disease (amongst other things).
Ah, right, i forgot about that DMNPC stuff . .
Having players spend edge - and loose essence, which means less magic, and less room for implants - in a scene that's only there so the DMNPC can show off adds insult to injury for many players.
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 21 2009, 08:02 PM)
They all spent Edge during the series of tests, none Burned to my knowledge. We talked through the mechanics and I believe most spent Edge on the first test and then again towards the end of the test to drive the Power down.
Beyond the Beetles, each of them tried other folk remedies (teas and pastes made from bugs, moss, etc.). The remedies had absolutely no game effect, cost a handful of naira, but seemed to have a placebo effect for one player who rolled better when he ate a paste made from a list of exotic, yet non-magical ingredients. (Dirt from the bottom of a blessed spring, a virgin's first menses, mashed up locusts, and a fruit that none of them could translate.) Yes, I'm always willing to provide flavor text for players who want to try something different.
Beyond the Beetles, each of them tried other folk remedies (teas and pastes made from bugs, moss, etc.). The remedies had absolutely no game effect, cost a handful of naira, but seemed to have a placebo effect for one player who rolled better when he ate a paste made from a list of exotic, yet non-magical ingredients. (Dirt from the bottom of a blessed spring, a virgin's first menses, mashed up locusts, and a fruit that none of them could translate.) Yes, I'm always willing to provide flavor text for players who want to try something different.
Awesome, that's the kind of stuff I try an do for my players too. I want to play in your game
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 22 2009, 01:41 PM)
Having players spend edge - and loose essence, which means less magic, and less room for implants - in a scene that's only there so the DMNPC can show off adds insult to injury for many players.
Isn't here a treatment that restores lost essence (don't have my books here atm)? Granted, not the best way, but at least the essense loss isn't permanent then.
There's one or two inSR$.5, but at the Moment it seems to be unclear which of those, if any, actually DO help with that. And they are both time/money expansive as all hell . . .
And for Mundane Cyber/Bio Characters, even 0,1Essence lost can be too much. And for mages too, as they lose essence from 6 to 5.9 or something and lose magic and so on.
and if i have this right, imagine you manage to not turn white with 0,9 Essence lost. Some months later, another ghoul hits you. If you lose 0,1 Essence from that one, you have
now lost 1,0 Essence and turn ghoul.
Basically, you lose time, money and Karma, all i one go.
If you're playing a combat adept, the character might still be true to Concept after having turned. You may even get one or two good things out of this, even if those don't nearly weight up the bad stuff.
But if you're playing a face for example? Who would talk to a ghoul?
And for Mundane Cyber/Bio Characters, even 0,1Essence lost can be too much. And for mages too, as they lose essence from 6 to 5.9 or something and lose magic and so on.
and if i have this right, imagine you manage to not turn white with 0,9 Essence lost. Some months later, another ghoul hits you. If you lose 0,1 Essence from that one, you have
now lost 1,0 Essence and turn ghoul.
Basically, you lose time, money and Karma, all i one go.
If you're playing a combat adept, the character might still be true to Concept after having turned. You may even get one or two good things out of this, even if those don't nearly weight up the bad stuff.
But if you're playing a face for example? Who would talk to a ghoul?
That is exactly the point. I think my players would go on the barricades, if they would lose essence due such a f***ing desease that is nearly impossible to heal just because some devs smoked bad incence.^^ Of course it is cool that you can finally realize a "resident evil" setting, but the basic prerequisite for this is, that the players know about the virulence of this baggers. My players were absolutely overcharged about the changes the virus made since SR3 and expecially the impact it should have on the SR-world itself. I, just speaking for myself, will refuse to play in this world and i would never ever make one single step in an area where just the possibility exists, that a ghoul could roam around. I mean, you can´t even put yourself in a chemsuit. This stuff is serious. Even Ebola looks like a flu in comparison to that krieger-strain.
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 22 2009, 01:12 PM)
Basically, you lose time, money and Karma, all i one go.
If you're playing a combat adept, the character might still be true to Concept after having turned. You may even get one or two good things out of this, even if those don't nearly weight up the bad stuff.
If you're playing a combat adept, the character might still be true to Concept after having turned. You may even get one or two good things out of this, even if those don't nearly weight up the bad stuff.
Right, and if he is a carrier, then he is undoubtetly the most deadly sam around. Killing by touch, not even mages can do something like that.^^
O-Cells seem to be the best bet against this new Krieger Strain right now it seems.
But do those have to be applied before or after the fact? i am not really sure now x.x
Edit: one post left
But do those have to be applied before or after the fact? i am not really sure now x.x
Edit: one post left
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 22 2009, 01:29 PM)
Edit: one post left
Till what?
I don´t know about the costs of this O-cells, but i don´t think that every gutter-punk can afford them. I would really be interested how Tamanous still manages to deal with non-ghouls. Are this guys just stupid because the hang around with corpse-eaters or do they simply don´t know the danger they are in? Hmmmm..
QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 22 2009, 01:31 PM)
Till what?
Self destuction?QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 22 2009, 01:32 PM)
Self destuction?
Ascension!
QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 22 2009, 02:33 PM)
Ascension!
Pretty Close ^^
Posting 5000 will now commence.
QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 22 2009, 02:31 PM)
Till what?
Till all are one.
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Jul 22 2009, 02:32 PM)
Self destuction?
Till it's over 5000
QUOTE
I don´t know about the costs of this O-cells, but i don´t think that every gutter-punk can afford them. I would really be interested how Tamanous still manages to deal with non-ghouls. Are this guys just stupid because the hang around with corpse-eaters or do they simply don´t know the danger they are in? Hmmmm..
Probably both.
O-Cells Level 9 cost 22500 per dose. So no, gutter punks and even most higher ups won't be able to just afford them like that.
Also, you need to get them FAST for them to help.
Juchuuu....so they are no option. Great, but cool that we discussed it.^^
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