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Fuchs
Spoilers ahead:

[ Spoiler ]
Fuchs
The adventure looks a bit short too, for 50+ pages. I may be spoiled by Ghost Cartels though - those events there are less detailed, but work perfectly for me, and they have maps to boot.
Rotbart van Dainig
Yeah, the Mary Sue is the weak point really. Given the Battlerun release, I thought that wouldn't happen anymore. Oh well, whatever.
Ancient History
<sigh> She's not a Mary Sue, she's been in the bloody canon since the original Harlequin campaign, and PCs have had a chance to interact with her in Harlequin's Back, so it's not like there isn't precedent for it. That said, yes she's a DMNPC and no she isn't all-powerful. Remember she wouldn't have hired the shadowrunners if she had all the skills to do it herself (and the money isn't all hers).

[ Spoiler ]
Heath Robinson
Ancient,
With the existence of certain tropes (CAUTION: This link leads to TVTropes.org, Heath Robinson accepts no responsible for loss of time, idealism, or other precious things) it's quite obvious that Mary Sues are no longer restrained to just fan introduced characters. Whilst the subtropes of Mary Sue refer to particular kinds, the parent tropes name can be used to refer to any case that a subtrope covers with some degree of confidence.
crizh
Fuchs, I wouldn't recommend wasting any money on the rest of the series, I can guarantee you ain't gonna like em.

I don't mind the Mary Sue stuff but the railroady, jet-setting, you have no gear and no time to prep stuff really torques me off.

God help the GM who has players that have built 'international' Shadowrunners designed to get around these problems.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 19 2009, 09:01 PM) *
<sigh> She's not a Mary Sue, she's been in the bloody canon since the original Harlequin campaign, and PCs have had a chance to interact with her in Harlequin's Back, so it's not like there isn't precedent for it. That said, yes she's a DMNPC and no she isn't all-powerful. Remember she wouldn't have hired the shadowrunners if she had all the skills to do it herself (and the money isn't all hers).

[ Spoiler ]


Of course she is all-powerful - she's limited by (cheap) plot devices, not logic. If she was not all-powerful she would have stats, not one minimum attribute, and descriptions such as

[ Spoiler ]


Yeah, Railorad and Mary Sue combined. But if one cuts out the fanboy-favors the adventure looks decent.
Backgammon
Could you post (spoilered) a few nice things about the mission? Your short critique bashes it pretty good, but you say "all in all it's ok". So what are the better points that make redeem it?

Also, could a GM swap Frosty out with a made-up NPC, and the module still make sense?
Fuchs
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 19 2009, 10:05 PM) *
Could you post (spoilered) a few nice things about the mission? Your short critique bashes it pretty good, but you say "all in all it's ok". So what are the better points that make redeem it?


[ Spoiler ]


QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 19 2009, 10:05 PM) *
Also, could a GM swap Frosty out with a made-up NPC, and the module still make sense?


In my opinion, without problem, but later adventures in the series might be more difficult to adjust.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 19 2009, 08:15 PM) *
In my opinion, without problem, but later adventures in the series might be more difficult to adjust.

Definitely. I should mention this: while DotA is designed to be a campaign, each adventure can be run on its own. Part of the (hoped for) kick of the series is interacting with someone you know from JackPoint and previous products, but don't let that stop you from having fun with it.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 20 2009, 12:13 AM) *
Definitely. I should mention this: while DotA is designed to be a campaign, each adventure can be run on its own. Part of the (hoped for) kick of the series is interacting with someone you know from JackPoint and previous products, but don't let that stop you from having fun with it.


Picking that one from among the dozens of far more fun possibilities from Jackpoint was a mistake in my opinion.
Ancient History
You're welcome to your opinion. Honestly, if I had any say in the matter or wrote the adventures, I might have gone a different way. I don't, I didn't. <shrug>
The Jake
Frosty's non DMGODNPC stats are given Harlequin and Harlequin's Back IIRC. You could use those and throw a few hundred karma at her to make her believably powerful rather than god-like?

- J.
HappyDaze
So, what if the PCs killed Frosty back in H'sB?
Ancient History
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 19 2009, 11:24 PM) *
So, what if the PCs killed Frosty back in H'sB?

Astral quest. She woke up with a headache.
Fuchs
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 20 2009, 01:24 AM) *
So, what if the PCs killed Frosty back in H'sB?


The Dragonheart trilogy showed that what the PCs did in H2 does not matter at all.

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 20 2009, 01:32 AM) *
Astral quest. She woke up with a headache.


I mean you didn't really think you could get a shot at actually killing a pet DMNPC, did you? Your main function is to show how awesome immortal elves are, not accomplish anything.
HappyDaze
Is Frosty killable in this adventure? I understand that she's really powerful in her nonstats (sounds a bit like nonsense...) - but if confronted with massive firepower, explosives, chemical/biological weapons, and Stick-n-Shock (gasp!) - can she be killed?
Ancient History
Yes. However, the universe in general assumes she will not be killed. Frosty will continue to appear in other products, until we really do kill her. Like was done with Captain Chaos, Rikki Ratboy, Nachtmeister, Fatima, etc.
[/edit] And yeah, no stats. If she dies, it's a GM's call what's sufficient to kill her.
Fuchs
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 20 2009, 01:38 AM) *
Is Frosty killable in this adventure? I understand that she's really powerful in her nonstats (sounds a bit like nonsense...) - but if confronted with massive firepower, explosives, chemical/biological weapons, and Stick-n-Shock (gasp!) - can she be killed?


[ Spoiler ]
CodeBreaker
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 20 2009, 12:41 AM) *
Yes. However, the universe in general assumes she will not be killed. Frosty will continue to appear in other products, until we really do kill her. Like was done with Captain Chaos, Rikki Ratboy, Nachtmeister, Fatima, etc.
[/edit] And yeah, no stats. If she dies, it's a GM's call what's sufficient to kill her.


CC lives damnit! *mutters about people killing off CC*
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 19 2009, 06:38 PM) *
Is Frosty killable in this adventure? I understand that she's really powerful in her nonstats (sounds a bit like nonsense...) - but if confronted with massive firepower, explosives, chemical/biological weapons, and Stick-n-Shock (gasp!) - can she be killed?


BishopMcQ's playtest group killed her (accidentally) while attempting to use a Citymaster to enter close combat, getting a critical glitch on a maneuver test, and running her over. They will never live that down. Neither will McQ.

(edit) My group also ended up killing her when we got a t-bird shot down, and everyone on board died. Note to self: don't piss off the Sioux military when they have fighter jets and we have a t-bird with a drunk pilot...
Fuchs
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Jul 20 2009, 01:41 AM) *
Yes. However, the universe in general assumes she will not be killed. Frosty will continue to appear in other products, until we really do kill her. Like was done with Captain Chaos, Rikki Ratboy, Nachtmeister, Fatima, etc.


None of those were NPCs in runs though.
HappyDaze
Excellent. The possiblility that another party (Aztechnology?) might offer the runners a side job to kill off an IE during the run is about the only thing that makes it appealing to me. That the run is scripted to allow this to happen (the unconcious part) is just icing on the cake.
Fuchs
[ Spoiler ]


Fuchs
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jul 20 2009, 01:43 AM) *
BishopMcQ's playtest group killed her (accidentally) while attempting to use a Citymaster to enter close combat, getting a critical glitch on a maneuver test, and running her over. They will never live that down. Neither will McQ.

(edit) My group also ended up killing her when we got a t-bird shot down, and everyone on board died. Note to self: don't piss off the Sioux military when they have fighter jets and we have a t-bird with a drunk pilot...


That's all not in this adventure though.
Fuchs
[ Spoiler ]
HappyDaze
Since when have runners ever done what they are "supposed" to do? The whole hardcore anarchist bit tends to come out in many PCs I've seen, even if it's just an excuse to burn the world.
Fuchs
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 20 2009, 01:54 AM) *
Since when have runners ever done what they are "supposed" to do? The whole hardcore anarchist bit tends to come out in many PCs I've seen, even if it's just an excuse to burn the world.


Oh, I agree. Which is why I think it's a mistake to place unkillable people into any run. And there's also the fact that the more obnoxiously powerful NPCs are portrayed, the more most players want to kill them. I really don't get why anyone thought it was a good idea to use Frosty as an NPC here.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 19 2009, 06:51 PM) *
That's all not in this adventure though.


True, none of the playtest groups killed her in Dusk. Midnight, however, she had a much lower survival rate--although none of the playtest groups killed her on purpose. But if your group regularly kills their employers, then by all means, they will have opportunity to do so--in all of the adventures.
Vairdic
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Jul 19 2009, 06:57 PM) *
Oh, I agree. Which is why I think it's a mistake to place unkillable people into any run. And there's also the fact that the more obnoxiously powerful NPCs are portrayed, the more most players want to kill them. I really don't get why anyone thought it was a good idea to use Frosty as an NPC here.

You absolutely can change the Johnson to anyone else if Frosty doesn't work for your adventure. I promise we won't send DEST to take your books. (We send runners after BattleTech players, so it's only fair to send MIIO or DEST after Shadowrun players) wink.gif

As a matter of fact, there's a section in the "Gamemastering the Adventure" section that addresses that point specifically.

QUOTE (Step Two: Assess the Adventure)
Rarely does any gamemaster take a written adventure and run it without any changes. You may decide it needs to be more challenging for your players, or perhaps they form a specialized team (such as all mages) who will undoubtedly approach certain tasks in unique ways. You may want to switch certain NPCs with characters your players are familiar with in their game, such as a common fixer or gang contact. Assessing the adventure lets you make notes on how you want to customize the adventure to best fit your game and your gamemastering style.[/i]

However, there are lots of players and groups out there who feel differently than you do, and will like the adventure for what it is. Its certainly not fair to them to blast the entire adventure on one swappable NPC.
wylie
WHAT!!!!!??????????????????!!!!!

(INSERT dmnpc NAME HERE) is in the mission???!!!!

it always starts that way with her, calm

so enjoy the simpleness of the 1st part

ME? make sure any PC i play in the mission has life insurance, doubled, to be passed on to the next PC I play in the mission

i must agree it isn't a good idea use (insert) in most of the mission. as the Johnson, fine. to escort around the world? nothing but trouble

in the end, we will see where the dust settles and how most GMs run the 1st part
i could be wrong in my statement
Cardul
If I run it? I am already planning a different Johnson....Oh, yes, Frosty might show up...but the PCs will absolutely not be dealing with her...And that is just
because I know my players well enough to know they will get upset if there is an NPC who makes them look unimportant...
Prime Mover
......... Sometimes Dumpshockers scare me.....

Thanks Tiger Eyes for being so clear headed and concise.
Bull
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Jul 19 2009, 09:17 PM) *
......... Sometimes Dumpshockers scare me.....


Just sometimes? smile.gif
BookWyrm
ONLY sometimes? Looks like we gotta step it up a level.....
BishopMcQ
There are a few Dumpshockers whom I have never seen be scary. I'm sure I'll be able to think of their names...eventually. There are a couple thousand of us afterall...

Re: Dusk and Jane--I think that a lot of the fear about an IE being in the run comes from skimming the story line and not looking at it as the first chapter of a much larger arc. Yes, Jane's description says that she doesn't have any stats. At the same time, it does not say that Jane's job is to be everywhere and do everything. My team ran through it and pretty much treated Jane the way they treat all their Johnson's, fed her shit and kept her in the dark about what they were doing. They figured she was paying them for a job, and they completed the job to the best of their ability, often leaving her behind. There were a few times when she had to come with them, during which they tried to be professionals.
[ Spoiler ]

The game doesn't have to be confrontational, instead it's about making choices. The runners are not always the big fish, but that doesn't mean that they aren't good at what they do. So Frosty is better at magic, a lot of people are better at XX, my people are better at YY. (Note: YY is wide-spread destruction and impending doom.)

Re: International runners--There is no need to make a special team of international runners just to bypass restrictions. If the runners have contacts, they can help. Know a smuggler? Pay him to get your shit there and bring him back a souvenir. Don't know a smuggler, talk to your fixer and get put in touch with one.

Re: Payment--Unless something drastically changed from playtest to final, the payout for the job is a lot more than was posted. Yes, the runners are paid the 2k per day--win or lose, as long as they try, they get paid. There is another larger payout for success. Runners who succeed get a large bonus. Sounds fairly reasonable to me.
Method
[ Spoiler ]


Also, I think it's a bit harsh to call the adventures "railroady" (no offense, dear crizh). They definitely lean to the linear side of the spectrum, but I think there is enough wiggle room built in to allow a creative GM to run it well. I think the linearity is an artifact (excuse my pun) of the presentation- i.e. the format of a published adventure. If the author could sit down with the GM and discuss every permutation it would probably be a lot less linear. Just my two yen.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (Method @ Jul 20 2009, 12:34 AM) *
Also, I think it's a bit harsh to call the adventures "railroady" (no offense, dear crizh). They definitely lean to the linear side of the spectrum, but I think there is enough wiggle room built in to allow a creative GM to run it well. I think the linearity is an artifact (excuse my pun) of the presentation- i.e. the format of a published adventure. If the author could sit down with the GM and discuss every permutation it would probably be a lot less linear. Just my two yen.


Because written adventures have certain limitations that tend towards linearity (ie, the author cannot foresee every possiblity players will come up with, or react on-the-fly as a GM in the middle of an adventure; rather, there needs to be a clear goal, although getting to said goal can be done in hundreds of ways), all the Dawn of the Artifact adventures include this specific bit for many of the written scenes (described on p. 4):

QUOTE
Subplots: Secondary adventures—or red herrings—that offer avenues for gamemasters to develop to make the adventure less linear for players.


I can say that the playtest groups all took at least 3 - 4 sessions to play through the adventure, and that many spent a full session simply exploring the location and meeting contacts (via the subplots introduced by the adventure)--many players' feedback was that the location & subplots, complete with language difficulties and crazy currency & bartering system, was a highly enjoyable part. One playtest group actually spent a full session before they left for just getting innoculations and gear (boy did they freak when they heard the destination); another group spent over an hour simply bartering at one of the markets introduced in the city, and the GM ran with it and everyone enjoyed it immensely. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what seems linear to the GM does not necessarily have to seem linear to the players.
Fuchs
[ Spoiler ]

HappyDaze
QUOTE
And it still doesn't solve the "oh, we go after the scroll, and our best mage goes to call the cab? Does she really want it?" inconsistency.

As a player, that would make me think set-up. I'd bail on the run, especially after her demonstration of inhuman power - much as with dragons, creatures of her power tend see runners as expendibles (if not fact, then it's a common belief).
Fuchs
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Jul 20 2009, 06:57 AM) *
I can say that the playtest groups all took at least 3 - 4 sessions to play through the adventure, and that many spent a full session simply exploring the location and meeting contacts (via the subplots introduced by the adventure)--many players' feedback was that the location & subplots, complete with language difficulties and crazy currency & bartering system, was a highly enjoyable part. One playtest group actually spent a full session before they left for just getting innoculations and gear (boy did they freak when they heard the destination); another group spent over an hour simply bartering at one of the markets introduced in the city, and the GM ran with it and everyone enjoyed it immensely. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what seems linear to the GM does not necessarily have to seem linear to the players.


What I call linear are scenes

[ Spoiler ]


I have been regularily sending my runners to Africa since cyberpirates was out, so that's nothing new for my group. They'd probably make a pit stop at Sekondi, stock up on gear in the Ares or SK enclaves or sekondi itself (aka the "milspec supermarket"), and would be ready to shoot their way through Lagos should any of the slum scum look at them sideways.

[ Spoiler ]
BishopMcQ
The electricity makes it an indirect combat spell--no LoS needed, though anything outside of LoS gets cover added to their resistance roll. To your other point, if the best mage is sucking enough of a DP modifier due to drain that all she's good for is calling the cab, why not? Power with limits. I throw a Force 10 or 15 spell, I'd damn well better be ready to hold on to some of that drain. It applies to the players, therefore it applies to the NPCs. When preparing for the game, I wrote down stats for Jane. It made it easier for me and while she was powerful, she was built on the same set of rules that everything else is. The runners could have killed her (as they did later--thank you Tiger Eyes for selling me out.) but they worked with what they had.

And you can bet that they remembered Lagos the next time they saw her...

RE: the Ambush--if you are going to say the entire adventure is ruined because of one scene, change the scene.
HappyDaze
QUOTE
To your other point, if the best mage is sucking enough of a DP modifier due to drain that all she's good for is calling the cab, why not?

By RAW, First Aid can take a huge chunk of that drain away very quickly. After that, even if she's still got a few dice of penalties, she's still betterthan the PCs by design. Saying she's too drained is just more handwavium - not that this is anything new with IEs - and that's just a turn-off to me.

From all I've heard, I won't be spending any money on this one. I'll read it over at some point and see if there's anything redeeming in it, but I dislike the described NPC, the adventure structure, the portion of the setting it uses (not a fan of Africa), and pretty much everyhing I've so far heard about it.
Fuchs
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jul 20 2009, 09:09 AM) *
The electricity makes it an indirect combat spell--no LoS needed, though anything outside of LoS gets cover added to their resistance roll. To your other point, if the best mage is sucking enough of a DP modifier due to drain that all she's good for is calling the cab, why not? Power with limits. I throw a Force 10 or 15 spell, I'd damn well better be ready to hold on to some of that drain. It applies to the players, therefore it applies to the NPCs. When preparing for the game, I wrote down stats for Jane. It made it easier for me and while she was powerful, she was built on the same set of rules that everything else is. The runners could have killed her (as they did later--thank you Tiger Eyes for selling me out.) but they worked with what they had.

And you can bet that they remembered Lagos the next time they saw her...

RE: the Ambush--if you are going to say the entire adventure is ruined because of one scene, change the scene.


I am not saying the adventure is ruined, I am saying its biggest flaw is the NPC, and all the contrived reasons to make her shine and then disappear when she might be needed. Sorry, but an initiate grade 8 mage of that power can be half-dead and still put out enough support to make her an asset in any fight a standard character is expected to survive in. Centering alone would negate those penalties.

Incidentally, I wonder why no stats were included as a baseline for 400 BP starting runners. It would have been a) easier to adjust up or down and b) less of a "too cool for stats" and "if she had stats she could be killed" trope.

And finally, I still don't get why anyone would have thought, after all the blogs, threads and conversations which call the DM introducing DMPCs that have more power than the PCs and are meant to save them the as a classic mistake and sign of bad DMing that introducing that kind of NPC in this adventure was a good idea.
Fuchs
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jul 20 2009, 09:21 AM) *
By RAW, First Aid can take a huge chunk of that drain away very quickly. After that, even if she's still got a few dice of penalties, she's still betterthan the PCs by design. Saying she's too drained is just more handwavium - not that this is anything new with IEs - and that's just a turn-off to me.

From all I've heard, I won't be spending any money on this one. I'll read it over at some point and see if there's anything redeeming in it, but I dislike the described NPC, the adventure structure, the portion of the setting it uses (not a fan of Africa), and pretty much everyhing I've so far heard about it.


I'd not write the adventure off that fast. If you cut out the NPC it's rather generic and could be easily used in any setting, especially one exotic for the runners. I could see it done in Hong Kong, or Tokyo, Australia, Caribbean, Europe,Russia, South America, etc.
HappyDaze
I'm not writing it off - I'm just not going to pay money for something that I'll ned to rewrite so heavily. If/when a free copy drops on me, I'll look it over more closely.
BishopMcQ
HappyDaze--While using First Aid in a back alley in Lagos isn't going to make you a lot of friends (the modifiers are a pain), I understand what you are saying. I hope that you will take the time and read through it yourself rather than taking other's opinions (mine or anyone else's) as fact. I liked the adventure, my players had fun with it, and that's where I'm coming from. Fuchs doesn't like it, and his players may decide they don't like it either, that's their choice. We each take our own path.

Fuchs--I'm not sure why stats weren't provided. I ran with what I knew about the character and made stats that were appropriate to the game I was running and the powerlevel of my players. At this point, you and I are talking in circles. You do not want me to convince you of my point, because it is purely opinion and based on anecdotal evidence. Maybe you will run it for your table, maybe you won't. I hope that at the very least, you can take elements out of the adventure (maps, NPCs, etc) and utilize them in other forms. You mentioned that your people go to Africa, maybe when they next stop in Lagos, they can go to one of the locations. Best of luck.
Fuchs
Most of the stuff there is rather generic. As I said - you don't have to put the game into lagos at all, you can put it everywhere.
crizh
Railroady.

I suppose what I mean there is not that you don't have an effect on the outcome of particular events but that you are forced into particular, less than optimal, circumstances by the plot rails.

A character isn't just a set of stats, they develop a power base over time, usually in the town they run in.

By deliberately choosing to 'railroad' the characters into going to another continent and doing so with no prep time and restrictions on the gear they can take with them you tear them out of that power base and make them vulnerable and less effective.


International Runners.

I wasn't suggesting that you need to do this, I was pointing out that should the players have chosen to do this the scenario is likely a cake-walk.

As there are a sub-set of runs that involve globe-hopping there must exist a sub-set of Runners that are good at that sort of thing. Players that can say to Frosty. 'Don't bother with your poxy jet, we have access to a far faster and more spacious transport. We already have several safe-houses full of gear in the target area and a bunch of contacts we can rely on', are going to trounce this entire campaign arc unless the GM 'rail-roads' them further.


DMNPC's

I actually like the fact that Frosty, like Harlequin, has no stats. If there is one thing I can't stand it's players acting out of character because of Meta-knowledge. Trying to kill Frosty ought to be out of character for anybody she has chosen to hire for this run. I like that the GM is given explicit permission to drop a cow on anybody that stupid.

For me the lack of stat's is just a convenience thing. I've found when you start to make PC's or NPC's that are Grade 8 or above their stat's are largely irrelevant unless the opposition is similarly powerful. People that can roll 40+ dice for Spellcasting, Counterspelling and Drain don't have anything to worry about from mere mortals....
Fuchs
QUOTE (crizh @ Jul 20 2009, 03:04 PM) *
DMNPC's

I actually like the fact that Frosty, like Harlequin, has no stats. If there is one thing I can't stand it's players acting out of character because of Meta-knowledge. Trying to kill Frosty ought to be out of character for anybody she has chosen to hire for this run. I like that the GM is given explicit permission to drop a cow on anybody that stupid.

For me the lack of stat's is just a convenience thing. I've found when you start to make PC's or NPC's that are Grade 8 or above their stat's are largely irrelevant unless the opposition is similarly powerful. People that can roll 40+ dice for Spellcasting, Counterspelling and Drain don't have anything to worry about from mere mortals....


[ Spoiler ]
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