So as it turns out, the hacking skills (Electronics and Cracking skillgroups) are all tied to Logic, but Logic is not factored into any of the tests at all; they're all Skill + Program. So why is Logic even listed, you may ask? Why, in case you wanted to default the skill, of course!

But, defaulting is bad, isn't it, you may ask? No. I'll show you.

Let's assume a human. Your normal Logic is 6(9), but we can easily do better. If we get Genetic Optomization (Logic), Exceptional Attribute (Logic), and SURGE II (Metagenetic Improvement [Logic]), our new Logic is 9(14). So let's soft-max it to 8 in chargen and get a R2 Cerebral Booster, for a total of 8(10) in chargen. Now when we default, we have a 'skill' of 9, adding our program rating as normal. Beats the pants off of your hacker now, doesn't it?

But wait.

If the person is a Nosferatu instead, we have a natural Logic of 8(12). Using our above method, we can increase that to 11(16). Starting the game with a 10 Logic, and a R2 Cerebral Booster, that's now a 10(12). We can further use Essence Drain to get that to an 18 (or 16, I forget if Essence Drain breaks natural cap or not). And then add the program's rating to that.

We can also get an additional +2 from Hot Sim.

So, without any ranks in any hacking skill, we can get 22 dice for most skills just off of freeware.

The ONLY skill that this does not work with is Electronic Warfare. Thus, Electronic Warfare is the only hacking skill you should ever buy ranks in. Otherwise, Logic out homies.

As a result, it should be noted that all hermetic mages ever should double as the party's hacker. Using the above methods, minus the Exceptional Attribute, we can fit a mage in pretty well, getting something like a 7(9) Logic, not including your Willpower, making for a respectable 9 drain dice from just one stat, for the price of one point of Essence/Magic.

Ummm, is hacking legal untrained? For some reason I thought all the technical skills required training to use.

Page 111, SR4. Most technical skills you can default on. Just not Electronic Warfare or some of the Build/Repair skills.

Minor point: Geneware and HMHVV are not compatible. The latter undoes the former and prevents it from being applied later too.

Point made. So final numbers are about 20 instead of 21. Got it. And we saved 45k nY. And that's only with Freeware R4 programs...

EDIT: But yeah, Technomancers, this thread is for you! Save you BP for other areas.

Defaulting on a hacking skill gives you:

Program Rating - 1.

BBB pg 223, hacking skill + logic, with logic replaced by the program's rating. If you have no skill you still have no skill.

This is where you are wrong, my friend.



Now, the ambiguities of the English language lead to a degree of interpretation here, but there's no talk of replacing your skill. I can see two interpretations that go thus:

• You can make the test using only the attribute linked to the defaulted skill as your base DP (allowing you to use your Logic with a -1 penalty for a DP of 9, but you use only your Logic and don't include program rating)
• You can make the test using only the attribute referenced in the test definition (which means that you don't get any dice when defaulting since there is no Attribute involved in the standard Matrix tests, and you still don't get your program rating since you use only get the attribute)

I follow Draco's interpretation of Program-1. The fact that it is linked to Logic comes up for augmentations that provide bonuses to Logic-linked skills, or for the rare times when you interact directly with a device instead of using a program.

BBB page 223:



*Directly interacting is debatable, but based on the wording in the Electronic Warefare, they mean you have a device (such as a maglock passkey), or are sitting at the machine in question.

I'm pretty sure that paragraph trumps the generic defaulting text due to the dice pools involved. If you are using a program, then you use the program's rating, not logic. The devs posted here once responding to a question of "can you perform a matrix action without programs?" and the answer is "no, you most certainly can not."

I'll see if I can find the post.

Edit:

Even better:

Page 208 BBB,


From this thread

The passage you quote is descriptive, not proscriptive. The majority of actions you can take have DP definitions. Defaulting operates here, too, in my opinion. If you would like, though it simply means he only gets program rating. Not even with the -1, since you've asserted that those rules overrule the Defaulting rules entirely - stating that you can't Default on Matrix tests.

Completely irrelevent, don't bother yourself. This has nothing to do with not having the program. This is about not having the skill.


Okay, rules backup for your point. Conceded.

I never said you don't need programs, I simply assert you do not need the skills (except Electronic Warfare, which I specifically mention).

Well, yeah, but 5 dice (7 in hot sim VR) won't get you too far in most systems.

But because the program replaces the stat (page 208) you're rolling Program Rating -1 for all your matrix actions. Logic never comes into it.

Lets do a little substitution:

Normal pools: Attribute + Skill

Matrix pools: Program + Skill

In normal pools, when you default, you are dropping back to the "engine" of action which is your attribute. In the matrix, the "engine" is the program. In the meat world, you are dropping the skill (since you don't have one) and lowering your attribute. In the digital world, you are dropping your skill (since you don't have one) and lowering your program rating. I'm thinking this make the most sense.

And in a blinding flash Codebreaker understands what people are talking about.

Now if only Neraph will reach enlightenment... Though I have to admit... I did like how it started out... Oh Well...
It was a heroic attempth there Neraph... Keep the Faith

I finally came to the realization a number of hours ago. Work kept me from replying.

When I checked before I posted (I thought it up at work, without books), I only checked to see if you could default them, not how the actual dicepool mechanic worked out. Forgive me for thinking it was like most other skills.

The Matrix rolls, being at all the same as the rest of the system!? Surely you jest!

I should have known better when I thought I understood the 'trix...

Personally I like the various house rules that make skill important in the 'Trix, it tends to cut down on the script kiddies playing at being Deckers.

No one undertstands the 'trix, not even the devs, which is part of the problem.

We have the awesome fluff from the various books, plus previous editions, plus existing mechanics for the meat world. Combining the three ends up in Wacko Land where things get convoluted and confusing.

After reading the Matrix section repeatedly and getting/reading Unwired, I've come to the conclusion that the Matrix rolls should be more like so...

Program + Skill, and that Skill can be replaced by Attribute. Otherwise, Attribute is worthless in the Matrix environment. Even then, that still has shortcomings.

There's an optional rule that changes matrix rolls to work like spells: Logic+Skill, with hits capped by force Program rating, but that screws over TMs a bit.

You'll have to admit you could say that about the internets in general and even more so for Dumpshock.

Yeah, like Technomancers don't have enough power already...

Pure twinkery and the only major flaw in that 'Logic' is that it'd have to get past the GM, me, and it wouldn't. Anyone who purposefully hands in a PC that Min/Maxed get's a one way ticket to remake it.

All in all, it a nice idea, but think about it... all that time you spent doing all that math, you coulda been doing something productive.

Actually, it makes rating 6 programs worthless. You'd have to be rolling 18 dice to even average that many hits. Sure, there will be the occasional 5 or 6 when only rolling 10 or 12 dice, but....for most things 4 hits is plenty. And 18 dice to matrix actions when dealing with Logic + Skill as you only method of gaining dice is hard:

Max-Logic human, R3 Cerebral Boost, Exceptional Skill, Specialization:
Logic 6(9)
Skill 7(+2)
Total: 18

In your games, perhaps, but some people let things go that are by-the-book. Learn to appreciate innovation and purpose.

There's a story just a few days old of 6 Navy SEALS being surrounded by 100+ insurgents, and when the SEALS got extracted after a few days without ammo or food, the 100+ insurgents were dead. The only wound the SEALS recieved was that one of them had a scorpion sting on his leg. That is an example of min-maxing characters. If someone were to build a character like that for you off of 400 BP, you'd turn to him and say "What are you thinking? Not just no but hey-all no! Remake it now!"

I used to think like that, back when I first started playing D&D. But after many years, I finally figured out the best response is not to disallow things that are completely legal, but to learn from them, use parts of it, and counter them.

A mage with Magic 6 Spellcasting (Manipulation) 6 and Turn To Goo should not be disallowed simply because you can't figure out how to deal with a spell; in the same way, a sniper that used Restricted Gear to get a Barrett Model 121 should not be disallowed, simply because he can (and will) kill people in one shot. The above character is simply the same way, albeit specialized for the matrix.

And, last but not least, it should be noted that the above character cannot work for his intended purpose, as we have found that Logic means nothing to actual hacking skills. Although he could default the hell out of Armorer.

EDIT:



And that part is actually very, very arrogant. It makes it sound like you are the only GM worth mentioning. It should be noted that I myself am a GM, and this idea was mine, not one of my player's.

I'd agrue that the story, if true is an example of TACTICS winning the day, not rpg style min-maxing.

Hehe I like that. Technomancers are not more powerful than hackers. They are a lot more versatile, and they have higher dicepools at high Karma levels, compared to lower dicepools at low Karma levels. It is extremely difficult to make a competent TM at character creation, where as a competent hacker can buy all rating 6 programs at character creation if he so desires. Now add in the basic inability to spend money to improve there numbers, and you see the weakness of the TM, they start weak, take a long time to grow, and end up as the most versatile, and efficient of hackers once they get to a high Karma level. At that same high Karma level however a non TM will have a ton more Karma to spend on diversifying their skills, and becoming more well rounded.

Kinda like the Street Sam versus the Mage argument. It is possible for a mage to become incredibly powerful is min maxed, but he is also a karma sink requiring massive input of Karma to excel.

I'm sure I'm forgetting other "perks" that Technomancer gain naturally, but the fact that they are "naturally spoofed" is the first one on my mind.
Controlling and creating sprites instead of buying agents is another.
Yeah, I agree that you can get a better hacker at character creation, but it doesn't take too much Karma to be a good technomancer (specially if you are an Elf or Dwarf, that receive bonus to Will and Charisma).

You can make a good character with any of the types. I refuse to believe that any given character creation path is "More Powerful" than any other. Technomancers have a lot of cool features, but they are by no means over-powered.

Advantages: Disadvantages:
1) Threading of Complex forms 1) Must use Karma to improve Complex Forms
2) Summoning Sprites 2) Can be rendered unconscious or killed while summoning
3) Ability to raise complex forms above rating 6 3) Cannot use software skill to improve programs in downtime
4) Various bonuses (paragon paths, etc) 4) Installing Cyberware penalizes resonance

Unless you have a HUGE downtime, improving programs is moot, since it takes months to improve it.

No, it means I'm the GM of my games and it wouldn't fly. Why would the people in your games be submitting their characters to me if you were running the game?

I'm pretty sure it is explicitly stated in the SR4 BBB that you cannot default on any skills in the Cracking skill group - I think it is indicated in the skill tree.

- J.

If you read the whole thread before you post, you'll see that this has already been covered.

The problem with the "GM says no to twinkery" argument is the slippery slope towards GM's making characters. Where is the line between twinkery and a "normal" character? Do you give guidelines, or just throw character sheets back at people and say "Meh?" One man's twink is another man's unoptimized PoS. I've never been a fan of arbitrary GM's kicking people around for being innovative. If your group tolerates it, fine. People in the real world optimize themselves all the time. Runners pretty much by definition live and die by how good they are. A runner who finds himself blessed with a big brain is going to look for, and find, places to apply it.

For instance, a Hermetic with Surge II finds himself having issues finding a team because he has eye stalks and a few other weird things. In an attempt to make himself more attractive to other teams out there, be begins studying hacking, reasoning he could probably put this mutated cranium to work in that arena as well. BAM! Was that....roleplaying? YES!

Also, the OP is sharing a possible mechanical quick in the system. It didn't work out, but how does your ham-handed GM fiat comment contribute? I question whether it is productive.

And why, on a forum dedicated to discussing SR, are you ragging on somebody for spending time thinking about the game?

Personally I tend to agree with Hartbaine on this one, as DM it is my right to veto any character before he/she/it enters my campaign.

And yes, I tend to do the actual "book-keeping" portion of char gen with most of my group, but I keep them involved and so far it's worked out pretty well as they trust me not to give them unplayable and unfun characters. For my player who has to make his own characters step-by-step he knows my guidelines but we do occasionally have to "tweak" his characters.

Is there a point where a character isn't twinked enough?

Example: DnD Paladin with an 8 wisdom. Can't even cast spells while buffed.

It's been awhile since I've played the older versions of The Cancer Game but didn't paladins have abunch of other useful powers that didn't relay on wisdom?

The character I'm thinking of couldn't do any of it. I think you're thinking of the Charisma based abilities. That was also an 8.

What's especially neat about the matrix rules is that even the basic metagame stuff that should underlay the rules and allow some rational interpretation as to what the rules mean is either missing, confusing, or contradictory.

6 wisdom. Owl's Wisdom is +4 Wis, which would buff an 8 up to 12, allowing him/her to cast level 2 spells.

Touche. I don't play spellcasters (except once, when I picked up a scocerer level as a level 14+ half dragon fighter. 1 more level of fighter wouldn't have gotten me bonus feats, plus with a few levels of half dragon paragon I was effectively a 3rd level sorcerer casting 0th and 1st level non-somatic spells.

It was also a character I never meet, and one made in D&D Online (which had other issues).

My greatest character ever was an awakened penguin psion. 2 animal HD, 9 levels of Psion. He'd waddle around everywhere, randomly trip and fall, get annoyed, and cast levitate. He'd also mindlink with people because he didn't like talking (he knew Druidic, Sylvan, and Avian or something). I spent his cash of two Dorjes of Bestow Power (to recharge my PP), a Heward's Handy Havversack, the ioun stone that allowed to you survive without breathing, and a Psicrown of Command (or whatever it was called). Upon meeting my group, I mindlinked the team's fighter and found out he only had a normal backpack. I offered to give him mine, as long as I could keep my stuff in it and ride around in it. He agreed

There were two instances in particular which were epic. The first happened when we entered a room and the doors locked and it started filling with water. It was a good-sized room, but my group were trying to figure out how to get out. They tried breaking the doors (didn't work; they were magically hardened), and then the walls (same thing). As they were debating, the penguin was wriggling around like crazy and dropped out of the backpack into the water. I proceeded to swim around, joyfully telling everyone that the water was great and they should just relax. I ended up using Psionic Knock to force the door open, and kinda surfed out into the hallway.

The second is when we reached the top of the tower. By this time I had put on my psicrown. When the tower's wizard showed up and started pwning us (non-deadly force; forcecage, paralyzation, things like that) and dropped 2 people of the 5 man team in one round, it came to my turn and I writhed around, tossed off the psicrown, and just waddled around 'wark'-ing, trying to appear to be a normal penguin. In the middle of a landlocked area. At the top of a wizard's tower.

It didn't work. He forcecaged me.

Pretty sure I did. I still don't agree with the interpretation.

- J.

What I was saying is that someone already beat you to the point that it doesn't work. It was like the 4th post.

Actually what you are saying is that it doesn't work if we agree to your interuptions of RAW, the wording and more importantly RAI can go either way.

Oops, my bad, I thought I was in another thread for a moment. Move along, there is nothing to see here.

Honestly, if any of my players ever tried that, I think I'd write Black IC on my hand and administer a healthy backhand to their faces.

Not that finding loopholes is bad in a game, but one like that is kind of over the top in my books. I'm enrolled in a Comp Sci major at my school, and I know how hard programming and computers in general can be. I'm not much of a hacker myself, but it really annoys me when I hear someone who uses Bittorrent or Kazaa or any file sharing program exclaim that they have "mad 1337 skillz" with "haxxoring". Honestly, using a file sharing program is not hacking, its the same thing as using MS Word (as in using a pre-compiled program, not doing it yourself).

The reason I use that example is because hacking in shadowrunning is one of those skills, IMO, that requires a lot of training and know-how, whereas defaulting on the Hacking skills is like using Kazaa... Just not happening...

wait...I understand knowing the languages, I'm not questioning his intelligence or anything....but didn't talk? What about can't? He isn't exactly equipped to speak like a normal human could...what with no lips or anything....and Druidic and Sylvan at least are languages spoken by cratures with human-like anatomy (Druidic is for humanoid druids...Sylvan for fairies, which have lips)

I'm just curious, because I would really like to see someone explain this away....and I'm betting that the first thing to be used will be something like "He's awakened and the speech is a magickal effect" or whatever....