So, I was looking through the spirit powers during a game I was running yesturday, and I stumbled across this:


That looks fairly unassuming, yes?

But wait, look at this:


Did you catch that?

Let's go over that again. Physical spirit powers cannot be used in astral space, nor may they affect astral forms. Spirits, before materializing, are astral forms. Materialization (and, coincidentally, Posession and Inhabitation) is a physical ability.

Conclusion, based on RAW: Spirits may not use the Materialization, Posession, or Inhabitation powers, and are therefore completely and utterly unable to render aid on the material plane, and are nearly completely useless as a result.

My inference is that the powers of Materialization, Possession and Inhabitation do not function on the Astral because when activated they shunt you to the Physical as part of their activation... You cannot be on the Physical without these powers, and as such, their use places them on the Physical by default...

Pure and Simple and in line with the Spoiler you included...

Yes, that would be RAI. But with RAW, they cannot be activated, because in order to use them they must not be on the Astral to begin with. It's like saying "You can unlock the door to your house with the key on the coffee table." Can't happen if the door is locked.

I just found it immensly amusing that spirits are, by RAW, almost completely useless. I would have thought the designers had a little more foresight than that.

Too bad that is incorrect

You are assuming astral beings do not have a component in the Physical plane until they materialize.

References?

This is true...

QUOTE (SR4, page 286)
Type: Powers may either be mana (M) or physical (P), just like spells (see p. 195). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms.

I bolded the important part since you seemed to have skipped it the first time

They don't.

Emphasis added.

It should be noted that manifesting does not allow you to do anything but speak and listen to physical things.



And:



The astral and physical planes are completely separate, as far as mana is concerned. Manifesting only allows you to talk and listen to physical beings, it does not actually allow you to affect it in any way.

EDIT: It should be noted that I have no problem whatsoever with spirits acting as we all know they should. The problem is that they do not work that way by RAW, and I found that very interesting.

As if I needed any more proof that RAW is a surly, unbridled horse, but Neraph rides it wherever he likes.

NO...I did understand that, but like Neraph stated... if they cannot be Physical without the use of the three listed abilities (Materialization, Inhabitation or POssession) then they could NEVER use these powers as they are on the Astral Plane by default and could NEVER activate their physical abilities BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WORK ON THE ASTRAL PLANE...

See... I got that they were Physical Powers...

Pretty Simple...

Yes it is, enjoy never using Spirits again

I guess all those threads about Spirits being overpowered are a moot point eh?

Again, you are missing the point... It is an interesting Connundrum based on the RAW...
And like I stated above... the RAI clearly implies that the activation of these powers shunts the spirit to the material as part of the activation...

You retain my third favorite person position. Solidly.

co·nun·drum (k-nndrm)
n.
1. A riddle in which a fanciful question is answered by a pun.
2. A paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a dilemma: "the conundrum, thus far unanswered, of achieving full employment without inflation" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)

It is FAR from a Conundrum, it is in fact, quite clear.

Meh... Semantics... it is indeed a dilemma... the RAW is in contradiction with the RAI... Makes it kind of tough on those who go strictly by RAW (I am looking at you Toturi)

So no Materialization, no getting shot with a projectile weapon (bow/crossbow), no...

Anymore RAW stupidity to add?

I fixed it for you.

What?

Thanks Neraph...

I could make you have a -26 to Perception tests no matter what form of vision enhancement you use. Does that count?

I'm enjoying this thread, its making me all warm and fuzzy. I can't wait to join a group of strangers and (in a pleasing voice mind you) explain to the Summoner why he can't do anything.

It was an interesting Observation HappyDaze... Nothing more...

Is that a challenge? I'll go hunting.

The Fire Weapon action is firearms specific, and Throw Weapon is specific to throwing weapons. There is no RAW action that allows an attack roll with projectile weapons (unless they are vehicle-mounted).

Ready Weapon and then Simple Action to release... what we use anyway...

Me too. It's perfectly reasonable, but it's not strictly RAW, so I point it out as my thorn in the paw of the RAWdoggers.

Now you have spirits to use as well.

Of course... By strictest RAW interpretation... it is a Ready Weapon Simple Action, then a Use Skill (Archery) Complex Action to Fire...
Having shot Bows for many years, this works for me...

Oooh, I like the pronunciation of conundrum. "k-nndrm." Accurate, really, but interesting. I also enjoy your insistence on precise use of the word.

Now, I guess the best use of spirits is to spike your victim's drink with Shade so that he astrally projects, and then gank the shit out of him before he even figures out what all the funny colours are. Think about it; the hackingest t-mancer or the most augmented sammie would have no chance at all, and, if I read correctly, Shade has no Power or Penetration; you get dosed, you go astral, your brain is just another lump of wrinkly fat sitting in a corpse.

Yes, but a lot of other spirit powers are Physical as well, making them only useful for astral hitmen. Unless RAI is applied.

Indeed...

well then i'll just make a firearm that shoots bows at people, and people will be getting shot with projectile weapons again =P so there!

Neraph, while it is explicitly stated that all objects on the physical plane have an astral shadow, and thus have some sort of form in both planes, and accordingly the rules have an explicit restriction about Physical and Mana Powers not crossing planes, it is not mentioned anywhere that I know of that Astral forms do or do not have a Physical Shadow. This is natural since the games starting POV is from the Physical plane and thus the base mechanics are developed from that POV. For your argument about an Astral Entity not being able to use a Physical Power you are making the underlying assumption the spirit does not have a component on the Physical through which the Physical Power can be activated. It's an assumption because we don't have the information explicitly indicating one way or the other. The assumption is not wrong, it's just the one you need to make to support your argument.

You'll also note that there are sufficient hints that in fact astral forms that are not materialized can possibly have Physical elements. When an astral form interacts with a non projecting, non dual natured metahuman you have the fluff chillingwalkingovermygravehairstandingonend effect. Is this because the Physical person is sensing through their Astral Shadow, or because the Astral Entity has a Physical Shadow? Or perhaps the Physical Astrla barrier isn't as strictly distinct as you might think.

Consider the ability to Project Astrally, is that a Mana or Physical Power of an Awakened Mage? How do the beings of the metaplanes view the metahuman ability to project from their physical bodies?

Edit: You might also look at the Search Power as an interesting example of a Physical Power

Ahem.



Spirits are purely astral forms.



According to the first two definitions, spirits are fully and without admixture astral. That means no physical component.

And besides, you cannot affect the astral shadow of anything. It is, for all intents and purposes, a carbon copy, not the actual matter at all.

Perceiving an astral shadow is interacting with it. It's passive, you can't manipulate it, but information is exchanged. Interaction has occurred. Without the astral shadow, you wouldn't know what was on the other side.

Meh, semantics about astral shadows. That does not mean that there is a 'physical shadow' of anything, especially when the rules are so explicit about not having any.

When the dictionary is invoked, it's time to throw Nazis into the argument!

...or God

Seriously though, as there is no way to model changing planes within the strictly dualistic astral/physical view, I think this was the best way to convey the type of power Materialization is. It should be a physical power, as you're physical while 'sustaining' it. It *makes* you Physical, so it would be totally ludicrous to have it as anything else, unless we create a totally new category for it.

The point Neraph brought forward is valid, though I don't think there is any question on anybody's mind as to how the power works.

Based on that, it should be a Mana / Astral power then. They activate it and they become Physical.

The rules already allow for activation of a power on the appropriate plane and continue to be supported/sustained even when crossing back over.

See the examples given for Guard. The spirit has to Materialize, activate Guard, and then can go back to being Astral while sustaining the Guard power.

Well crap... there goes the neighborhood...er....I mean: there goes my conjurer...

No matter what people go by, RAW or RIA, or anything else, I'm definitely going to keep spirits as how I think they're supposed to work, with Manifesting. Otherwise, that kind of just screws over a lot of things in SR....

Hmm... You're right. Although one could argue that the target of the spell is no longer astral, and Mana based powers only affect astral forms. Then again the spirit is still dual natured.

*sigh*

Intuitively, I still find Physical a better description. And I maintain that there is really no confusion on how the Power works.

Ah but the spirit is still astral... Materialization makes the spirit Dual Natured. Thus it exists in both Astral and Physical. Thus the power still works on the Spirit.

Shouldn't be any different than a mage casting an improved attribute spell on himself and then astrally projecting. As long as he sustains the spell, it still works.

Also, Mana based powers can affect Physical forms too. Manaball comes to mind (granted it's a spell but the point is the same). It's more of a Astral or Physical spell / power thing than it is a Mana thing.

Best thing IMO is to issue an errata or FAQ indicating the Materialization power is a special spirit ability that allows the spirit to transition its form from being purely Astral to being Dual Natured. Do away with the Astral / Physical label on the Power.

Then the problem is solved and the fluff matches canon.

Like I said in the post you quoted... "Then again the spirit is still dual natured."

And the best thing to do might just be ignoring this whole thread

Ah but regardless of whether its dual natured or not the power cannot be used on the astral plane. Its not a matter of it working on it, the rules nip it in the bud quite nicely.

When people do not know the definitions of words, I feel the need to enlighten them. It is not my fault the government-run public school system sucks it up when it comes to educating the populace, but I try to correct its mistakes whenever I can.

The problem here is that the spirit does not become dual natured until it materializes, but it cannot materialize in the first place, since it is a purely astral form and physical powers cannot affect it.

Again, it's like locking your keys inside your house. You're keys are on the coffee table, but you are outside it. You could unlock the door with the key, but it is inside the locked house, and therefore out of your reach.

Zormal / Neraph,

That is why I said it *SHOULD* be an Astral Power not a Physical Power. The Power must be able to be activated on the plane the entity is on in order to use it there. The spirit being an Astral being must use Astral Powers / Spells to affect itself. If it wants to use Physical Powers / Spells, it must be on the Physical Plane somehow.

Thusly, Materialization should be an Astral Power that works as described in the books, not a Physical Power due to the limitations of the Astral | Physical boundary.

Even better IMO was the suggestion to remove that type category from the Power description in the first place.

Neraph, I think you misunderstood my post (after I re-read yours). I wasn't suggesting that since materialization makes the spirit dual natured that the spirit could still activate it on itself while still solely astral. I was commenting that the spirit could still maintain the power on itself (after activation) without issue as it still had an astral component it could affect.

Oh, absolutely true. But the spirit cannot get the physical component required to use the physical power in the first place. I mean, if he could, then yes he can sustain it indefinately.

But therein lies the problem.

Can I just add that I'd like to cheerfully murder whoever started calling it "RAW"?

Bull

Kay, but what would you call it Bull?