No one ever said anything about mass production, wether absolute or relative.
In fact, i've pointed out several times that CZ are certainly anything but a mass application.
I doubt that any of the few corps or governments who have access to this technology produce more than a handful of them per year.
That's not mass production by any definition i've ever heard of.



First of all, you should check your definition of munchkinism.
As far as i know, it boils down to stupid fucks who systematically break the rules or invent silly houserules to build "better" characters.
No need to get personal here, okay?

All i've done was pointing out what the existing rules actually say about the performance of cyberzombies because you made the assumption that cyborgs would be mechanically better.
They're not, that's all i was trying to say.

As i've admitted several times, cyborgs will most likely still see much wider deployment than CZ once the technology to create them becomes more widespread.
I've never argued that.
All i did was to point out that there actually is a use for CZ, even though no corporation would need more than a handful or probably a dozen of them.
Which is good, as there are probably less than 20 metahumans worldwide who are capable ofd cybermancy anyway.

So yes, it's still an experimental technique, those monsters are rare and whatnot.
Who said otherwise?



No, that's according to the "CZ can have the best stats, so there's tons of them around" logic no one in this thread has ever used.



If i would completely ignore the rules and make decisions about cybermancy's viability based entirely on fluff, it would look even worse for your position.

The texts in Augmentation basically boil down to "all jarheads inevitably go insane within months, with some very rare exceptions staying operable for a few years and everybody who employs them is downright stupid, as these fuckers are all batshit crazy and no one can predict what they're up to, while CZ nowadays are admittedly pretty fucked up, but actually can survive ten years or longer by now, because the technology to create and maintain them is constantly advancing, oh and BTW, they are freakin powerful and tear apart everything that comes in their way".
Conceptually, cyborgs are a flawed, imperfect technology in the prototype stages, whereas cybermancy is a twisted, but tried and halfway reliable application with impressive results as far as short- to midterm performance is concerned.
If you go entirely by the fluff, it seems as if long-term stability is just a matter of more research into the subject.

Please don't confuse what was said about cyberzombies in 2nd edition sourcebooks with the current SOTA.
Cybertechnology still includes some of the most compelling, vivid texts about personal augmentation and it's dehumanizing downsides ever published for SR.
I still draw a lot of inspiration for the portrayal of heavily cybered PCs and NPCs alike from that book.
But a key concept of SR4 is that technology in the sixth world is advancing, that applications which were unstable and experimental in the 50s have become much more refined by 2070.
Laser weapons cost 2.5 millions in the Street Samurai Catalogue and required clunky harnesses, now there's laser pistols for 15k available.
There's man-portable railguns. Nanites. Widespread geneware. Endosonts.
Alphaware, former cutting-edge technology, is now officially available in every shopping mall.

And likewise, many cyberzombies stay halfway sane and non-cancerous for several years before they slowly start losing it.

BTW, the fluff doesn't give a damn about how much ware you can cram into a single person without cybermancy.
Conceptually, people with that level of augmentation are practically always described as cyberzombies.
As well, the impact of high-force spirits on the game world is never adressed.
Fluff ignores all of your "superior options".
Only number crunchers on dumpshock point out to their uses and their possible effect on the game world and that you can get such massive discounts on Essence costs that cybermancy is at best interesting for it's secondary effects.

Do you have any idea whatsoever what the rules for a Cyberzombie are?

The ritual itself, although extremely difficult, is not in itself expensive - at all.
Nowdays, there is a Delta Clinic in most major cities.

A -4 Essence Cyberzombie with Standard-grade augmentations is a threat to a dragon.
A -6 Essence Cyberzombie with Delta-grade augmentations can likely slaughter Great Dragons.

Cyberzombies last much longer, & are not significantly more expensive (compared to longevity - possibly even less expensive) than Cyborgs.


I have used cyberzombies in my game before; group of runners built with 750 Karma (~500BP)+ ~80 in advancement, vs. 2x -3 Essence (standard-grade) cyberzombies using Assault Rifles (there was a Wendigo Blood Mage as well, but everyone dodged his Fireball, & he died before his next action). One of the players remaining conscious, 1-2 Edge Burned, all Edge spent, everyone else unconscious & near death.

Yes, I think they would have preferred a dragon. The dragon would have gone down easier. Oh, & I had actually forgotten to apply multiple pieces of 'ware I had given them - if I had remembered everything, at least one player would have been killed.

Yes. Do you? Here's a hint, it's on page 155 of Augmentation. Go fucking read it. Since I doubt you will, here's the actual text. I'll even underline some keywords just for you.

Cybermancy remains an extraordinarily difficult procedure, requiring the work of a dedicated team of magicians, doctors, and specialist technicians. In practice, any facility capable of performing the twisted combination of science and magic known as cybermancy will possess both a delta-grade medical facility and a Rating 12 (or higher) magical lodge. There are no more than twelve clinics in the world capable of performing the techniques, most of them in the hands of megacorps. The procedures for becoming a cyberzombie are rare, expensive, and dangerous—well out of the reach of any starting character.

So, how about not being an ignorant hypocrite next time, kay?


So, basically, you just give me some random ancedote with absolutely no context or real information and expect that to be proof of your point? Well, if that's the case then here's my counter:. "I ran this game once where this one character, like, didn't have a single stat over 3! Yet he totally one-shotted this totally tricked-out cyberzombie I threw at him! How awesome is that, huh? I know, right! But despite how amazing that fight went and how pussified the cyberzombie was after getting pwned and all, that character is really glad he didn't come across a dragon. Whew! He would have shat himself!"

Again, there is a difference between preventing death and cheating death. If a person is in Hatchetman's situation, does he have the option for Leonization?






When we talk about immortality, we are typically talking about achieving both physical and mental. Cybermancy give you physical immortality? Sure, but the research will continue. The technique is not perfect. That mental illness problem would be what they need to research/improve. Interestingly, we don't actually know if the current gen of cyberzombie will last longer than 10 years as shown by the book quote below.

Pg 157, Aug.






If a head corp scientist was working on some SOTA worth millions, they might want him to stick around to work on it.

And since the topic of price keep coming up, let's look at the price.


Requirement:

1) delta-grade medical facility

2) rating 12 magical lodge

3) cybermancy metamagic, pre-req of corruption and invoking. 

4) Logic + Arcana ( Test. This threshold may be reduced by 1 for every item or individual important to the subject that is destroyed during the process.


5) cyberzombie must be prepared as a vessel

6) one of the attending initiates must complete a dangerous metaplanar quest to a Deep Metaplane


7) Installing implants past zero Essence is a difficult task requiring a Cybertechnology (Implant Surgery) + Logic (20, 1 hour) Extended Test


 All implants are likely to be delta grade. Equipment and teamwork bonuses apply, of course. 


9) an invoked memory stimulator (see p. 157) must be included in the package. (50,000 nuyen)


10) Cleansing metamagic must be used during operation

11) kept in stasis for a week plus an additional day for every point (or part thereof ) that her Essence has fallen below zero.


12) When she awakens, the subject must make an Intuition + Willpower Test. (and more detail i don't want to copy over)


13) lifestyle cost increased by 2000 nuyen. 

So I see a lot of stuff that would potentially cost a lot (having someone perform a 'dangerous' metaplanar quest, yeah). We have the cost of 50,000 nueyn and lifestyle increase of 2000 nuyen a month. Interestingly enough, they recommend delta cyberware to be installed, but if not, we can get the rest of the ware fairly cheap.

Also. If they have made ONE cyberzombie, the equipment and the talents exist to make more cyberzombie much easier.

4-7 need to be repeated. 9, 11-13 as well. The biggest 'cost' I see is the 50,000 nuyen, 2,000 nuyen lifestyle, and the metaplanar quest. I have no clue how much metaplanar quest would cost a corp.

How much is your guy with MBW-3?



Can you please give an example? Especially since Muspellsheimr seems to have a cyberzombie build lying around. Maybe we can compare the actual cost of the two and their efficiency.








lessee, 2000 nuyen increase in lifestyle. Then the test to see if they have more negative qualities.


What other maintenance issue are we talking about? If there are more, please point it out.

As far as I know, they got rid of a lot of the downside from the older editions. We aren't worrying about your MBW-3 guy getting TLE-x. And from what we know, CZ pay 2k more each month, and occasionally get more NQ. Not as much downside as you have described.

PR issue? "We saved our loyal employee from death at his consent." How would the public find out anyway? From the deniable assets known as shadowrunners that shouldn't exist and would most likely have any evidence of a CZ if they have stepped into corp territory?

And really, leonization and cybermancy currently do different things. Cybermancy would like to beat leonization at one point, but it doesn't right now. It still has its uses, albeit a different one.







And to avoid a long post like this one. I would really just like to see Dr. Funkenstein post his cheaper and more efficient MBW-3 guy or whatever. His stats, his nuyen cost, etc. And also if Muspellsheimr could post his CZ's stats and nuyen cost, then maybe we can get a better idea.

I can see DocFunk's points... it's just I think there's a bit of an assymetrical bit going on there. Not all corps are equally skilled at the same things, they've focused their research on differing areas.

If it's aztechnology (or similar) they may only have bigtime access to cyberzombies as that's where their research lies.

If we're talking Ares or some other drone manufacturer... jarhead cyborgs all the way.


I have a major disagreement with you on one part there siel.

The use of delta grade parts...

You want the essence down in the negatives and 10 (-4) is a LOT to work with. If your goal is to make it CHEAP then delta grade has just blown your budget bigtime (10x cost, and twice as much of it! worse if adapsin & positive qualties... in which case now we need 3x as much at 10x the cost).

With just a basic few of qualties (and adapsin), we can get normal grade for 20% off (12.5essence avail), or alpha at 40% off (16.67 essence avail)

MbW 3 == 175000 (a real bargain)
10/10/10/10 base limb full cyberlimb body.
+42000 per limb. x6 (+7increase*4attribs*1500), 90k (2arm, 2 leg, torso, + skull).
Say another 10k for cybereyes/ears.

That's a cool half a million right there and about 11 essence of cyber. Can't forget the memory stimulator... another .2. Plus so much cyberlimb capacity that most of the other cyber you'd even consider can be done in capacity! (nanohive, cyberlimb armor... able to fit enough that he could walk naked and still have more armor than most PC's). Easy augmentation up to augmented maxes by using cyberlimb enhancements.

Leaves enough for another 2.6 essence worth of bioware. (pain editor, trauma dampers, platelet factories....)

If you need more essence change the MbW or things like the cybereyes/ears to alpha. (I'd avoid doing it to the cyberlimbs... as that doubles the cost of all cyberware placed in capacity... stupid rule I agree)


Since cyberzombies are dual natured... i wonder if cyberspurs and similar razorboy type stuff would count as magical weaponry :). (it was bought with essence!).

Not the exact build I used (I have various House-Rules that affected it; most notably how Skillwires work). It is, however, very close.

Cost is just over twice that of Otomo drones (most common Cyborg base model), & will easily beat the shit out of numerous Otomo's.

Two of them will stand a very good chance of a Total Player Kill against a standard 400BP group. Two posed a serious threat to my significantly more powerful group.


Base Stats, Skills, & Gear = Red Samurai Detachment (Professional Rating 5)
Augmentation = Standard Grade

Final Cost: 320,750:nuyen:

If nothing else, all those resources the corps put into developing CZ tech is going to keep CZ's in production.

Sure, you *can* build a devastatingly cool dude running deltaware, adapsin, and what-have-you... but you've GOT these guys who can make cyberzombies, and they're already up and running as a lab/team... why not just make both? You don't shut down a production line unless there's no good reason to keep it up, and it's not like corps churn out hundreds of delta-monkeys a week for their high-end security teams.

All arguments about attribute maxes and other advantages/disadvantages aside (even if pushing strength and fiddling with legs so your character can run 80+ miles an hour is ridiculously cool), there are some things cyberzombies have that tweaked normal cyber-types don't... even if that is simply projecting that horrible sense of "totally wrong" to anyone even vaguely astrally sensitive.

I think we just need to accept the fact that cyberzombies and cyborgs actually cost the same amount, you just have to buy them with unobtanium.

In terms of application, ask yourself this; is the biggest threat to your PCs going to A. try to kill them all, but stop short at the last moment because a flashback of his mother is reminding him he's human, or B. try to kill them all, while humming videogame sound effects at low volume from its speakers and occasionally shouting "DIE, SOUL-KILLING LEGUMES!"

Question folks:

If we are worried about simply lowering the essence in a cost effective way (it seems like alot of this is "there is only X amount of cyberware, and we have to stuff almost all of it in to lower the essence level to 0), isn't it workable just to have a vampire suck the essence out of an individual?* Then add your basic MBW-3 and other goodies, and you don't have to worry about running out of augmenations to stuff in.

*and there are other ways to do it to. Drug addiction, messed up healing tests, etc. Heck, if you can recover essence, there must be medical procedures which you can deliberately perform to drop it.

Indeed, regardeless of the cost-inefficiency of BOTH cyberzombies and jarheads, the corps will still keep making them. Why? The cyborg or cz isn't just a tool, or even just a product. Cyberzombies and jarheads are research subjects, and as long as it looks like there's more interesting things to learn from the basic tech involved in each procedure, the corps will wring every that they can out of their "volunteers" pain, misery, and place on the actuarial graph.

It's included in the salary of scary cybermancer dude who can also Invoke Guidance Spirits to produce an astral rift.
How much these guys earn, i have no idea.
I'm certain though that these are the biggest additional cost in any cybermancy program.
All the rest of the equipment is already there if you have a delta clinic.
The medical tools, the surgeons, a staff of assisting magicians (every delta clinic offers magical healing).
As a megacorp, you want to have access to all that stuff wether you care about cybermancy or not.
The lodge isn't a problem either.
A corp with the magical ressources to pull this off has them anyway (even if not, they're just Availability 24, 6000 ).

But the cybermancer...that's the tricky part.
These guys are rare.
They have to be at least Initiate Grade4 to learn all that Metamagic (Corruption has Geomancy as a prerequisite IIRC), most likely higher if they didn't spend all of their career aspiring to become a cybermancer.
That's already a frightening level of proficiency to begin with.
Then, they need a Metamagic asociated mostly with Toxics.
And then, they have to learn the super-rare, ultra-complex, tripple-advanced Cybermancy Metamagic.

And probably also have to be willing to travel to the metaplane of death (otherwise, you need yet another magically gifted nutcase for that part of the job).
Must be one scary place.
There's also the Binding part, which requires you to be a top-notch conjurer.

Coming up with a formula for the CZ almost seems trivial at that point.

So we're talking about at least one elite scientist/magician who has incredibly rare occult knowledge, the will to face death every time he creates a new CZ and, frankly, a pretty deranged worldview to learn the relevant techniques in the first place.

How much does someone with these qualifications earn?
I've got no idea.
Certainly enough for a luxury lifestyle, but i have no clue how much you earn exactly when you posess insane arcane knowledge available to only about 20 people worldwide.




Dr. Funkensteins build would most likely be quite awesome, but would not be able to reach the level of performance a CZ reaches.
He simply can't, his attribute hardcaps are much, much lower.
He doesn't get to be strong enough to rip MBTs apart with his bare hands, or get to be the best sniper in all of human history, or any other record-breaking thing you could attribute to a low-Essence CZ with well-designed cyberlimbs.
He couldn't even come close.
There's cold, hard numbers speaking out against it, backed up by more than ten years of description about how insanely powerful CZ are.

The other difference is that he would be more stable, though.
Also more reliable.
It's a good, working, middle-of-the-road approach when it comes to building supersoldiers.
An undoubtedly rational, viable choice.
But not something that's really on the cutting edge.

As far as the cost is concerned, we lack the cost for the actual ritual, which seems to be the central issue as far as cost is concerned.

It is obvious, of course, that 10-12 points of standard or alpha 'ware are a whole lot cheaper than 5.99 points of delta 'ware.
In fact, the difference may even be big enough to make up for the annual salary of the cybermancer.

But comparing the two is still relatively pointles.
The applications are vastly different.

A living, healthy, sane delta sam is a solid, impressive, valubale asset.

A CZ with -4 to -6 Essence is just a monster in every regard.
Stronger, deadlier, more unstable.
You get significant advantages over normal operatives, but significant drawbacks as well.

The two are really incomensurable.
Pushing the limits of what's metahumanly possible by a full 100% comes at a price.

I seem to recall from the CZ fluff text/comments that some corps were picking up the magical side of the process more quickly than expected. Along with some cryptic hints about damaged souls/sinister forces/lines dragons won't cross and vampires?

Guess that might well cut down the (cash) cost of hiring the cybermancer and developing the magical side of the procedure?

Has any of the published material delved further into this as I reckon there's a fascinating story there.



I'm also wonder which is a bigger PR disaster - creating magical pollutant apocalypse zombies or squishing childrens brains into jars to pilot attack drones?

Apparently, some corps didn't find out about the procedure on their own, but had someone who told them how to do it.
*cough* Ordo Maximus *cough* NeoNET




Dealing with the horrors trumps both, but then, the corp who does that also has it's own CZ program running.
Not that a bunch of people who power magic by ritual human sacrifice is that sympathetic to begin with.
Some people may also have qualms about the elite of a megacorp being a bunch of cocain czars.
Good for the Stuffer Shack on the corner that the public doesn't know jack about any of this, right?

I love how when people argue on this forum, they always ignore the whole argument and instead focus on one or two pieces to prove why the whole is a flawed. You know, like how in the last few posts, it's all about cyberzombies vs. jarheads. Or that somehow a guy with MBW-3 is going to cost more than a cyberzombie with the same implant. Even though the first guy just has a relatively cheap genetech treatment and a natural trait that doesn't appear to be that rare (based upon the number of runners that miraculously have it). But that totally costs way more than a team of high-grade initiates, a rating 12 lodge, extraordinary rare metamagic techniques, and excrutiatingly difficult rituals and procedures.

Classic.

Yes it really expensive for a starting character, but not so much for a corp that has both of those that you underlined for the last decade and would have anyway, recardless of them having cyberzombie program or not.

You're right, what was I thinking?

They're supercheap to create and everyone can pop one out on a whim. That's why they're everywhere! Who needs real scientists when you can create superawesomecyberzombie ones to lead every research field! Who needs runners when you can just make one superduperawesome cyberzombie to do all your illegal work? Why do anything when you can pop them out SO EASILY! AMG! And they can do everything and anything! With no reprecussions or issues to worry about (as long as it suits your argument of the second)! Yay! CYBERZOMBIES RULE AND NOTHING BEATS THEM EVER EVER EVER! YAYAYAY! And anyone who says so doesn't know what they're talking about, because, like, cyberzombies are just that awesome, that cheap, that convienient, and that sensible to have around. Even Leonization pales next to it! WOO!!!

Thinking that the cost of cybernetics is pretty cheap when you start lining it up against the financial might of the corporations. Particularly given that the costs quoted in the books are what it costs you to buy the gear as a consumer - I'd have thought it should be a lot cheaper to the companies who make it and already own the labs?

I'm kinda suprised that the cyborg technology isn't considered on a icky and unethical par with cyberzombies. The clonal brains are closer to acceptable, but surely the stuff with orphans and the elderly isn't something a corp would ever admit to?





It's good they could find a friendly healthy helper group with NO ulterior motives? And if you can't trust the motives of a sinister cabal of vampiric magicians, who can you trust?



Very fair points there!

I'm familiar with the horrors from Earthdawn and a couple of really old SR adventures (Genie in a bottle springs to mind?) - is there any material out there with more on Corps + Horrors - feel the urge to read it!

Often wonder to what extent rumours of Aztec blood magic and various organised crime activities creeps out to the wider public?

You know, spewing bullshit in a moronic fashion does not help you, nor does attempting to place false blame on others for 'ignoring the argument' - something you have been doing a significant amount. I do not recall ever seeing actual support for any of your points (I'm sure they have come up at some point in the past, but where so minor they were not worth noting).


Welcome to my ignore list, where you should have been a year ago.

You mean like quoted text directly from the book? Yeah, you're right, no proof at all. I guess because it completely and utterly proved you wrong. My bad.

At a certain point it becomes pointless arguing with people. When you guys keep going on and on about the virtues of cybermancy and how it's the superior choice, it's like you're completely oblivious to the fact of what you're actually arguing -- that it is a superior choice. For fuck's sake, we had someone trying to say it was better than LEONIZATION for purposes of extending life!

So I'm giving up arguing and instead agreeing with you people. Just looking forward to the responses to show me how wrong I am by doing so. Those points I'm agreeing with now are:

• Cybermancy is dirt cheap! Far moreso than Adapsin or other similar options.
• Cybermancy produces a fantastic quality of life that surpasses even Leonization!
• Cybermancy creates the most bestest scientists ever, which is why there are so many examples of them leading the field in... well, any field you can think of!
• Dragons are pussies.
• Cybermancy is a better, more desireable option that pretty much anything. Including, but not limited to, magicians, paracritters, special ops teams, high tech weaponry and drones. In any and all situations. No exceptions.

I do believe that covers the brunt of it.


Good. Means I don't have to read any of your inane and painfully ignorant responses anymore either. Woo!

You posted one frikkin quote from the book that basically says that cybermancy is too expensive for a starting PC.
No shit sherlock, really.
Nobody is actually arquing against that.

For the record, I do not think Cybermancy is superior to leonization or adapsin/whatever options. I think they are different but viable alternatives. I just don't think cybermancy is totally worthless as Dr. Funkenstein claimed.

I don't understand why Dr. Funkenstein keep claiming that I or others think cybermancy is superior to leonization. I have already stated that leonization is better right now, but there are things leonization cannot do. For the last time, cheating death and preventing death is different.




I agree with the points others have brought up. In particular:

1) Cybermancy is not for starting characters

2) Resources are already spent on researching cybermancy. It would be a waste if the corp just stops producing CZ when they have all the resources to do it.

3) Some corps might be more CZ inclined while other corps might be jarhead inclined.

4) Surprisingly, CZ is not as bad as it once was. From the new edition, you pay 2k more for lifestyle and every year you get more NQ if you fail the roll. It is also possible (but probably not likely) for current gen of CZ to live forever, no one knows if they will though.

5) Most importantly, unlike what Dr. Funkenstein claims, cybermancy is a viable option.




While I'd still like to see a jarhead comparison, I guess Dr. Funkenstein is not going to post one for comparison and engage in actual discussion. :/

Good fucking lord.


I would if that was my point. But it's not. See any of my previous posts. You know, the ones that state -- time and time again -- that's it not just one thing. But you people keep brainlessly slamming your heads against the wall, arguing how awesome they are because they beat ONE option in ONE way. If you guys can't be bothered to look at the entire picture and instead just bury your heads in the sand, I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to prove how asinine it is to do so.

Cyberzombies aren't just about cramming gobs of cyberware into some sap to make an uber-killa. The procedure has other useful effects (hinted at in the flavor text, not detailed in the rules). Its basically technological resurection. Whether its worth it for that purpose is debatable (sconsidering how expendable the typical "runner" is...) but that's another issue. And it doesn;t just cure physical damage- it can solve more essoteric issues.
For example, I once played an elf samuria who got turned into a vampiric pawn. His essence eventually would have dropped to zero, but we'd captured the nosferatues body and the party had put him in cold storage with a spell to suspend his metabolism. Cybermancy was one potential solution at that point.

There's also the fact that cybermancy is useful for research into various odd aspects of medicine and magic.
Plus, there's the whole ordo maximums angle. What better way for a vampire to feed than to drain his "patients" 0 essence, slap them full of cyber, then do some cybermancy.
I'm sure blood mages have thier own research and direct uses for cybermancy, too.
In fact, its pretty much always been clear that the one person who ISN'T normally benefiting from the procedure, is the subject.

There's also the rare occasion when you want a dual natured, background count toting hard case. Nothing else can give you that. I suppose a physical adept or physical mage can come close, but they don't owe you their life... or come with handy cortex bombs.

The corps don't admit to the clonal brain stuff, either.
In my opinion, cybermancy is worse from a magical perspective, as it involves corrupting a metahuman's spirit and binding him to his dead body in an entirely unnatural, in fact counter-natural way.
Any Awakened who cares about preserving the astral plane will feel disgusted by the very idea of this procedure.
If we compare the ethical implications of cybermancy and cyborg creation from a different, mundane angle, MCT's cyborg program is certainly worse, given Halberstam's experiments and all that other terrible things that led to the creation of this technology.
Anyways, all cyborg research is clandestine, they aren't advertised publicly, but instead, possible customers in the field of security and military operations are adressed directly and discreetly by spokespeople of MCT.
Or one of the companies that, judging by who offers jarhead-ready drones in Arsenal, have reverse-engineered the technology (namely Ares, Monobe and Evo).

Speaking of who reverse-engineered cyborgs, does anyone have an idea which corps and governments are confirmed as being cybermancy capable?
I know of Aztechnology, SK, NeoNET, Mitsuhama, Shiawase, Universal Omnitech, Ares and the government of Tir na nOg, with the Ordo Maximus and a group from Azania also knowing the procedure (though i doubt that they have clinics of their own).
Any more intel on who can pull that stuff of?
There's 12 clinics around and given how rare cybermancers are and how specific the applications are, i doubt that there's both the need and the ability for any one actor to posess more than one or at best two of these 12 clinics (NeoNET may probably keep both the Transys and Novatech clinic active), so i'd guess that there's some more corps who know how to do this.




You should really take a look at the SR2 Atztlan sourcebook, then.
It's heavy on references to these aspects of the metaplot, even though a lot of it may be rather cryptic to people unfamiliar with Earthdawn and the SR/ED-crossover.
It's a great read anyway, as most of the SR2 material.





In fact, it works a bit different.
The sanity tests are done on a monthly basis, so characters with low Willpower and Intuition will rapidly go insane.

However, if you have a sufficiently stable, strong-willed subject, said person can last for quite a while.
Let's asume that the patient is a human who has both attributes softmaxed (in fluff terms : strong will, perceptive, good rapport, self-aware and self-conscious).
That gives him a pool of 10 for Sanity Tests.
He should easily make it to the first two years in service without additional mental problems aside from the initial effects of the ritual (with such a subject, a competent mage and probably some Edge from the patient, side effects can be brought to 10BP worth of negative qualities- yopu won't be the same person afterwards, but it's possible to remain functional).

So the first two years aren't that much of a problem.
Let's hope that the patient has found a way to integrate his state of being into his world view, cope with some basic facts of his new form of existence and draw strenght from the whole procedure, instead of falling apart (in game terms : sink available karma into WIL and INT to raise them to their new max; sadly, i can think of very few ways to gain bonus dice for this test, e.g. Daredranaline and certain spells).

If he manages to do so, it's possible to make it through the third and fourth year without complications, depending on the negative Essence value and the amount of karma spent on INT and WIL, even through the fifth and sixth (ironically, CZ who have the greatest potential for longterm functionality are more prone to suffer massive initial problems, as the negative Essence value determines the TN for the initial Sanity Test after the operation).

That's the point when, even for the most resilient characters, problems start to appear.
The patient has to struggle to stay sane, spending points of Edge or maybe even burning them.
Psychologic counseling becomes necessary, probably aided by PAB reprogramming.
After a while, the condition worsens almost automatically with every passing month.

However, it does so in small steps.
5BP of Negative Qualities per month.
That's 10 karma to buy off (given a competent psychologist, preferrably with a PAB unit, supports the character).
So theoretically, it is possible even for a patient at this state to remain sane, even though it takes constant effort (read : 10 points of karma a month).

Given maxed out natural INT and WIL (both somewhere in the 12-14 range) and high Edge, this stage will be reached around year 7-9 in service.
For characters with less impressive mental stats, it will happen earlier.
Utilizing very strong magical support (insanely powerful Increase Attribute spells), it could be pushed out even further, in the most extreme cases probably up to 20 years or more, but that's not likely to happen, as it takes someone with as much mojo as a great dragon to anchor such spells to a CZ.

Admittedly, these are very extreme examples, outlining more what is theoretically possible than what is to be expected in practice.
For the usual subjects, expect two years in service without major problems, a troubled third year and beginning menatal breakdown at the start of year four.

Jarheads, on the other hand, can, by RAW, function almost forever if they are maintained correctly.
Their tests don't increase for every year in service.
Please note that, according to the description in Augmentation, this degree of cyborg stability is complete and utter bullshit and their tests should increase as well, as they are described as automatically going insane after at best 5 years in service.

CZ only need 10 karma a month to buy of those negative qualities, so one can easily go on indefinedly without any problems.

Yeah, like i said, it's possible to keep them in service much longer with the aid of a qualified psychologist and a PAB unit.
However, this requires a steady supply of at least 10 karma a month.
Sounds possible from a PC perspective, but how much karma do you earn when you're an NPC?
Especially when you're a mentally unstable...thing who simply walks all over practically any opposition you throw at him?
How much experience do you earn from blowing up a bunch of people who are just mooks compared to you over and over again?
How long can you go on living like this?
Fighting for three weeks, spending a week in therapy, repeating?

What i was trying to say is that, after a certain point, the life of a CZ becomes a constant struggle against madness.
You can go on at this point and in fact, strictly by RAW you can go on indefinitely.
However, does it seem that implausible if a CZ just...snaps at some point during that phase?

Augmentation doesn't provide a definitive answer to that question, they're just saying :


So fluff-wise, we know that CZ can remain stable in the mid term.
We don't know anything about long term effects yet, because the current, advanced state of cybermancy has been around for such little time that there simply is no one around who has been a CZ for more than 10 years.

Think that's about where I'd land it as well. To average joe on the street kiddy brains in jars sounds worse... Quite agree - the astral pollution has to actually be worse... Plus the nature of whatever horrible entities are involved from the plane of death - that can't end well.



Awesome - thanks for that - never seen that book before, but will certainly check it out! Should have guessed it'd be those wholesome Aztlan types.


On the CZ vs Cyborg mental decay process. It feels to me like they have them the wrong way around, given the fluff text.

10 karma a month seems a lot to gather for a PC - that's more than a simple run or two a month - unless they are wheeling out 'teh awesomes!' of roleplay...

To be fair, in the highly unlikely event that someone ended up playing one or other in my game I'd probably customise/make up the rules anyway. And for NPCs I'd drive all over them in my GM Fiat anyway.

 

Oops, you were right. The test is monthly, but threshold increases only yearly if you take the drug.


And yeah, we don't know about the long term. A CZ might be well and alive for 10 years, 100 years, or forever. He might have a drekload of negative qualities and totally useless, but not necessarily die. Hmm, a crappy version of immortal elves. You live forever but you just keep on sucking.. and sucking.. and sucking till a baby can beat you in a fist fight. 

Using SR4A new reward table, an avarage run should net 10+ point of karma.

Quite frankly... I don't understand all this effort to keep the CZ viable for a LONG period of time (more than a few years).

I seem them as mechano-magical dogs (and nearly rabid at that), NPC's used by corps. Not as something which will be a PC. In no way, do I see them as anything like leonization.

From that line, I see them mostly as attempting to be cheap, effective, and disposable.

Once you invest hundreds of thousands, if not millions of in a highly qualified asset, you may want to keep them in a functional condition for some time.
Plus, a CZ who is going on a random killing spree due to an existential crisis is something most corps will want to avoid (place add for ACME Brand Cortex Bomb here).

Moreover, a lot of a CZ's potential takes a lot of time and training to fully be realized (such as superhuman mental attribute scores)- i'm certain that corps are only beginning to realize some of the possibilities cybermancy offers, as they are only becoming apparent now, with more refined cybermantic techniques leading to more stable and reliable CZs.



I agree on the Leonization part, i can also see how CZ with a bad psychological prognosis are sent on a suicide mission after 2 or 3 years in service (if they aren't designed for such an attempt in the first place).

In other cases, such as the cyber researcher or the cyber general (anyone recall the Cyber Logician NPC from Cybertechnology?), long term stability is much more desirable.