Hi there.

Just cameback to SR this month. Used to play it back in the 90's. So please bear with my noob-iness.


how do you compute essence reduction if a character has biocompatibility trait and purchasing delta grade cyberware suite?

is it

basic * .5(delta) * .9 (cyberware suite modifier) * .9 (biocompatibility) * , lets say the combined cyberware would have a basic cost of 3 essence, so that would end up as 3 * .5 * .9 *.9 = 1.219 essence

or

Basic * [.5(delta) - .1(sybersuite modifier) - .1(biocomp)] so the above example would compute as 3 * [.5 - .1 - .1] = .9 essence

thanks for the help in advance

I always interpreted the rules as the modifiers are multipliers that you use on the base essence cost of the cyberware, so essence would be calculated using your first example. I do know that a lot of people houserule the essence calculation to behave like your second example to cut players a break on essence costs for cyberware.

It's cumulative from the base price, so, 10%+10%+50%= 70% discount of base essence cost.

Also, as Augmentation states, a cyberware suite should be designed "with potential consumers in mind, not to the runner's needs". Since its already deltaware, I would highly doubt any cyberware suites would be available (maybe some sort of "government super soldier" setup, with crazy high Availability). However, YMMV, it's your game.

Miles

The second example (cumulative, as Miles puts it) is the official / correct method.

The first example, that Elwood agrees with, is incorrect.


You can find the official ruling on these forums if desired - I am to lazy to look it up for you.

second process it is then... thanks for the replies

In which case he is unlikely to *buy* it anyways; it's more a reward (for having helped the corp in seriously crazy ways) or an investment (don't think about double-crossing them).

I've always hated how they write the rules so you have to use a decimal instead of just listing it as a flat-out percentage. Percentages are far more intuitive to most people. Which is why stores broadcast their sales as "10% off everything!" instead of "everything times .9!"

Ah, so were the rules clarified by one of the devs on the forums? Because everything in the books is kind of ambiguous. Not that I'm complaining, because I like the other way better. Anything that allows me to cram more cyberware in.

Very simple way... look in the errata or in the reprinted augmentation.

Under cyberware suites calculate the essence cost for the alpha grade suit (20% and 10% reduction)... you'll find w/ the errata and in the reprint they're at 30% discount by the math.


Personally I think just multiplying by .8 & .9 is more elegant as it puts in place a stacking penalty. And w/ future changes no one can concievably get 0 essence loss from stacking up a 100% essence reduction. But they didn't do it that way. (stacking penalty helps keep things balanced by discouraging overspecialization IMO).

Delta + adapsin + compatibility + suite... == 20% essence cost... multipled though (36.45%).
Hehe... first part is almost enough to consider MbW3 at a mere 1 essence.

Sadly that errata is still to be relesed.

1 essence, plus character creation stuff, plus needing someone to design the suite (a suite cannot have one item: it doesn't reduce essence magically, it just integrates several items. That means logically the second item must cost at least .5 essence, which is what the 10% on the MBW3 amounts to.), and enough money to buy a small corp or your own outfit.

We're talking super-SOTA stuff here, I wouldn't have a corp sell it under, what, 20-30 millions.

Logic has nothing to do witht e SR4A rules. WbW and a Sim Module is enough to get the full suite bonus. Them's the fucking rules.

It's also why cyberzombies don't make a lick of sense in the modern gameworld (though having old "clunker" models from the past is still a pretty awesome idea). I can barely fill in 6 points of Essence worth of totally optimized implants as it is.

I thought Cyberzombies had an effective Essence of 12 when determining the effects of Cyber? After you hit 0 you just start going into negative numbers and you have to start rolling binding (Which you dont really need to do when you are making a Prime Runner. GM can just say it all went well). Having anouther 6 Essence to play with on top of a full Deltaware Cyberwear package should be able to fit in a fair bit no?

Or am I not understanding what you mean correctly?

I don't believe you're understanding his point correctly. His point as I understand it is that you don't run out of ESSENCE, you run out of WARE, particularly if you use things like biocompatibility and adapsin. To pass 6 Essence, you need a lot of low-grade cyberware, or else you just have to throw half of Augmentation into one person.

Oh right, yeah I misunderstood then. I guess the only solution is liberal applications of the Weapon Mount 'ware and making yourself a walking arsenal of death. Maybe have a mortar welded onto his back while your at it (For when you need to use indirect fire!)

And then when you figure out that you still dont have enough stuff you start adding extra cyberarms for even more fun!

Edit: For the first time I am actually reading the Cybermancy rules properly, and damn those things are nasty buggers. I can see one standing toe to toe with a well made possession mage with some ease.

Yeah, like 30 essence worth just to get to 0 essence. If you go cyberzombie, that gives you 30 more you can get. The problem is that there just isn't that much different compatible ware to implant, even if you include bioware you can't really use up 60 essence.

Well, probably.

But here's the thing; proper cyberzombies ignore piddling trifles like adapsin and suites, because the lower their Essence goes, the more invincible they get.

Full cyberware replacement (head, arms, legs, torso) is 6.75 essence, so once you throw in MbW3 you're pretty much at the limit; and between 84 capacity and rating 5 skillwires, everything else you can plug in (not that there's much else to do, with all cyberlimbs). Hell, if you install adapsin, there's room left over for ears and eyes.

By the way, I really like the Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries, but I'm not sure I get exactly what it's talking about. On this day that heaven was falling, an army of mercenaries defended creation and nobly died?

But then how would I fit in my Cybergland that makes the Zombie smell like roses and taste like strawberries? You know, for the Technofetishists out there.

I know they usually ignore things like adapsin and biocompatibility, but, they don't have to. I was actually just remarking that one doesn't need to be a cyberzombie to go all crazy with implants.

As enemies, I love cyberzombies. As PCs, I can't stand them, I'd never play one. To many drawbacks from my perspective. I realize some people like them. They're just not for me that's all. Especially since I can build one hell of a cyber bad-ass without going under 1 essence using adapsin, biocompatibility, suites, and the 1/2 essence cost rule for the implant type you have less of (i.e. cyber or bio).


Epitaph is just a poem Houseman wrote about the World War 1 mercs who (though you don't hear much about them) were insturmental in the allied victory. It simply remarks that a soldier is a soldier, even if he's just there for a paycheck, and should be honored for his sacrifices just the same. They saved the world for a paycheck.

At least, I think that's what he meant.

I thought the poem was something along those lines. Thanks for the background info.

I guess the sorts of people who like roleplaying cyberzombies are the ones who liked Harry Potter in book 5 when he was being all emo. That's basically cyberzombies in a nutshell; shooty, smashy and stompy on the outside, whiny emo kid on the outside. So your soul was ripped out and stuffed back in like a <unnecessary details deleted by sysop>. Who cares? Shoot some more stuff!

Cyberzombies make sense because while expensive they're probably much less expensive than implanting Deltaware grade implants, the R&D required to make a deltasuite just for a handful of people, etc. Also, 10% come from a rare quality. That's a 20% discount that is unlikely to be there, and what remains is Adapsin + deltaware. 40% from a MBW3 is still 2 essence, and then, there are things such as cyberlimbs...

The GM is there to make sense of it. They explain where the essence reduction comes from, and the GM is in command of cybersuites design. He is thus responsible for having it make sense. There's the letter of the rule, then there's the spirit. There's enough fridge logic in SR4 as it is, I think.

WWI wasn't about saving the world.

No, it wasn't. Like almost all wars it was about resources and ideology. But, quibbling about the difference between the real reason for a war and the propagandic (note that I don't necessarily consider propaganda a negative thing, it serves it's purpose for both good people and bad people) reasons that motivate individual soldiers and the populations that support them isn't what this particular thread is about. I only mentioned the poem because McAllister asked. And, Houseman, the poem's author, thought that "saving the world" was exactly what they were doing.

Actually that's a pretty nasty idea for a cyberzombie... Forget delta we want the essence lower... more soldiers, better quality, for less cost! (remember the lower it goes the higher the base attributes allotment over base).

Adapsin, biocompatibility, and alpha grade is 60% normal at only 2x base cost. So roughly 10 cyber total. (only reason for first two is packing in more kit w/o making the cost go up by switching from basic -> alpha -> beta).
EG: alphaware cyberzombie is only 3x the cost of a basic grade one, but packs in 66% more punch. (2x cost, w/ 50% more of it)
Less so if you allow basic cyberware as capacity items. (house rule yes)


At say -4 essence... that allows for straight 10(15) stats on a human. Now I'm tempted to see how cost effective you could built a cyberzombie like this.


And remember... all cyberzombies need tailored pheromones 3 :) (hehe a charismatic cyberzombie)

hey whats this adapsin i keep hearing about? on which source book can it be found?

Augmentation. Geneware. Costs .2e and 30,000nY (and takes a month sitting in a vat to install), thereafter lowers all cyberware essence costs by 10%. DOES NOT apply retroactively, although, in theory, you could uninstall and reinstall all your cyberware, which would leave an essence hole that other implants could fill.

Augmentation - Page 90. First one under Transgenics.

Adapsin: Adapsin is a catchphrase for two proteins that can
reduce the impact of non-biological implants to an organism. True
adapsin is an immunoprotein that limits bio-stress upon implantation
of cybernetics by down-regulating inflammatory response. The second
protein produces a secreted polysaccharide that coats the implant with
a bio-film, making the body believe that it is a normal organ, thus
limiting xeno-rejection and immune response in the long term.
Adapsin reduces the Essence cost of implanting cyberware
(but not bioware) by 10% (round normally) if the subject has
previously undergone adapsin EPE treatment. This reduction is in
addition to reductions from alpha-, beta- or delta-grade cyberware.
Adapsin is new to the market in 2070 and should not be available
at character creation.

EDIT: Curses, I was beaten to it.

got it thanks

Fluff-wise, wasn't cybermancy also one of the first attempts to beat death? It's not just a way to mass produce cheaper soldier than they would have otherwise with deltaware. It's about the ability to cheat death and in a sense become death reincarnate with all that cyber and guns mounted on you.

Sure, the result is just an unique type of character/role/class not normally accessible to player but might not be as good as an optimized pc character with the right qualities and ware. Though those right qualities and wares are probably a lot harder to come by in the fluff.

In fact, you can just stuff all available, compatible cyberware into such a monster and you still have tons of room for bioware.
I tried, it actually works.
When it came to counting the bio as well, i got tired and stopped that insane mental exercise, so i don't know how much of that you can put into a -6 Essence CZ with biocompatibility, but Geneware (which isn't available in Delta grade) should make up for a fair amount of Essence.

The whole "problem" of how difficult it is to bring someone to -6 Essence when applying all possible ways to save Essence comes up frequently on these and other SR boards.

I fully agree on the notion that cybermancy isn't about installing more 'ware, but about the secondary effects.
Cheating death is one part of it, as well as producing Astral Hazing, getting additional boxes on your damage track, receiving some hardened armor and -most importantly- increasing your attribute hardcaps.

For some magical reason, you can build much stronger cyberlimbs for a CZ...in fact, once we're talking zombified troll ghouls, genecrafted seal shapeshifter SURGEling combat divers or something like that, it becomes impossible to reach the augmented maximum for some of the higher stats, as you can't get more than a +7 for STR, AGI or BOD on top of your cyberlimb customized for the natural maximum.

Which makes you realize what cybermancy really is about : pushing the limits of metahuman performance farther outward than ever before.

Nah, they still don't make sense by the simple virtue of the existance of robots and jarheads. Anything you can do with a cyberzombie (sans the mystical mumbo-jumbo part) you can do infinitely cheaper and infinitely better with either of those options. And if you really need the mystical mumbo-jumbo parts (which are supposed to be a negative side-effect, not a goal), you can just use those two metagenic qualities to all but duplicate it. I think one is Arcane Arrester. Don't recall the other. And if I remember correctly, they actually balance each other out point-wise!

Cheating death isn't even a reason for it. Dying is a side-effect of becoming a cyberzombie, not the other way around! Geneware and bioware (both of which being cheaper and more effective) are the means of cheating death, not cyberzombism. XD

The only real use they have is for a villain-of-the-week type of thing. Some whackjob's (preferably old and outdated) experiment to see what was possible. But entire armies of cyberzombies? Ridiculous even for Shadowrun, especially if a megacorporation is involved (who care more about the pricetags than anything else).

CZs are able to reach a level even jarheads can't get to.
If i'd want to build an appropriate guard for a zero zone, i'd go for a CZ anytime.
They are about the scariest physical opponents you can build in SR, built to deal with the most extreme threats (such as elite runner teams).

For military applications, jarheads are better, though.
Even though a CZ can kick the shit out of a jarhead before the tinman even gets to use his 5IP, they are too expensive to be mass-produced.
But i can easily envision entire plattoons of jarheads with clonal brains.
They clock in at 600k apiece using the base Tomino platform.
Count in vehicle and kommlink mods, a clonal brain and skillsofts and you get a frighteningly effecient soldier at less than a million .
So an entire platoon of tricked-out Tomino jarheads costs about as much as two off-the-rack combat airplanes.

See, that argument is extraordinarily weak in my book. If your only excuse for having a concept like that around is to be the "scariest physical opponent you can build in SR, built to deal with [...] elite runner teams" you've already lost the argument. You're basically saying they should exist because they make a good McGuffin.

Like I've said, having an old model cyberzombie roaming around, perhaps trying to augment itself with modern implants or seeking ways of sustaining itself, is an awesome idea for a threat. But creating new cyberzombies in the 2070s, when technology allows for equal or superior opponents for cheaper costs? It's incredibly silly! Why spend the millions upon millions of nuyen on a cabal of blood mages and ultrasophisticated equipment when you can spend a fraction of that to either find or genetically modify someone into being a perfect specimen for normal augmentation? When, as others have pointed out, you can put a Move-by-Wire 3 into someone for only one point of Essence, what more do you really need than the other five points of Essence?

Cyberzombies cost way too much, have way too many drawbacks, live on borrowed time, and are a PR nightmare if anyone finds out about them. And that's just some of the negatives right off the top of my head.

Actually, in one area there is nothing that can touch a CZ. And that area is actually not combat. Build a CZ researcher/scientist/etc. Logic 12 (15) and Intuition 12, plus all the bonuses from genetech. These guys can get way way way past the cap of 20 on dice pools you see in most games with mental and knowledge skills.

I think that the biggest area of cyberzombie implementation in the 2070s is in the field of asset conservation. Rather than building a CZ "from scratch" as it were, the corps will convert a recently geeked sam (conveniently kept on life support) that they've ALREADY spend a lot of on into a cyberzombie. This way, instead of losing the money they spent on training, implants, and surgery, they can keep a loyal, trained, expensive corporate asset in service, and more powerful than ever.

Yeah, if you overemphasize the elite runner team part (which is just one possible example among many others, ranging from specops units to Awakened threats) and ignore the "scariest physical opponent part" alltogether, then it's an extremely weak argument.



Wait, no one claimed that the corps don't do normal, delta-grade augmentation all the time just because they are able to build cyberzombies.
Of course, in a lot of cases, it makes much more sense to enhance people without going for cybermancy.
I've never doubted that.
Cybermancy is a risky and utterly evil procedure with very specific benefits.
And it requires special installations and personell.

But the most expensive prerequisite for cybermancy (a delta clinic) can be used just for normal augmentations as well.
Also, all delta clinics will have a staff including highly qualified cybersurgeons and specialized healing magicians.
The dozen delta clinics who also do cybermancy happen to meet three other prerequisites :

-a Lvl 12 magical lodge (Availability 24, 12k , a minor expense for a delta-grade clinic and probably a good investment anyway)
-a magician capable of the Invoking, Corruption and Cybermancy Metamagics
-a spirit with the Astral Gateway power to access the metaplane of death (already included with the magician if he's from a tradition with access to Guidance Spirits)

So the only real big difference between a normal delta clinic and a cybermancy clinic is that the latter employs a cybermancer.
If you've got one of those guys, why wouldn't you want to keep him?
Because he's a creepy, evil guy who violates the basic laws of existence?
Come on, we're talking about corps like Aztechnology, MCT, SK or NeoNET here.
For the two former corps it's SOP to violate the basic laws of existence and the latter two don't care if it fits their interests.



Agility 15(22).
Once more, cybermancy isn't about how much ware you can install, but about raising your attribute hardcaps.
CZ have the potential to become stronger, faster, smarter and tougher than any other metahuman and that's what all this fuss really is about.

As well, cybermancy has come a long way since the days of Hatchetman.
It's still a research field (and in fact, every CZ is also at least partially a guinea pig to further advance cybermancy, refine the procedures, minimize the drawbacks), but by 2070, cyberzombies are much more stable than they used to be and the techniques involved are still advancing, making it worth to invest in further research if you already have the necessary personell and installations.

It's mad science, but there's a method behind the madness.

As long as it is restricted to a few, scattered shadow clinics in the hands of some particularly unscrupulous megacorps (which it is), the only real plausibility problem here is that rules and fluff don't quite fit together.
The descriptions suggest that CZs are able to function for a decade or longer, whereas jarheads have just hit the market and are said to inevitably go insane after a few years in service, the longest-serving specimen being deployed 5 years ago (and that one seems to be a major exception from the rule).
The rules, on the other hand, allow jarheads with good mental attributes to operate infinitely while cyberzombies end up burning Edge after a couple of years, because their Sanity Test's threshold isn't increased by 1 for every year in service.
According to the descriptions in Augmentation, it should be the other way around.

You again miss my point.

You don't have to worry about raising your attribute hardcaps if you can just build a custom-tailored robot or drone to your specific needs instead. And with both riggers and jarheads available to pilot them, there's absolutely nothing a cyberzombie can offer that beats it, both for price and functionality. Hell, you could have a small army of drones/robots working the scene for the same price. And without worrying about them being mentally unstable (jarheads being a possibility, but nowhere near as bad), or requiring extensive maintenance on a monthly basis, or having them lived on borrowed time due to cancer and mental illness, or giving you and/or your corporation a bad name if anyone finds out about it.

If for some reason you do need an implanted metahuman for the job instead, you have the ultra-delta option available. Which is also infinitely cheaper (since you use the same implants in the cyberzombie anyway, unless your sole goal is to grind down their Essence with standard grade implants).

The only time a cyberzombie is a valid option is when you have a short-term magical threat to deal with. And guess what? Even then they don't make a bit of sense. They're too expensive, they take too long to create and, yet again, they're mentally unstable and liable to turn into a PR nightmare. You're far better off hiring a team of initiate magicians (even the cabal of blood mages you'd use for the operation if you don't mind the PR bit!), paracritters, and/or finding changelings with the Arcane Arrester/Astral Hazing combo -- or any combonation thereof -- to deal with it.

And you can combine any of those three options to meet the requirements of whatever it is you need, too!

The costs -- financial and otherwise -- for creating a cyberzombie are simply absurd. There's nothing they can give you that you can't trump using the same resources, and none of those resources have the same suite of horrible, horrible drawbacks as a single cyberzombie does. They were an interesting idea at the dawn of the cyberware age, but by the 2070s there's no reason at all to be creating them. Even Falanin's point is rathre mute, as you could salvage whatever implants you wanted from a fallen cyborg and implant them in a new one.

Could you please show me where i can find these amazing agility 22 drones.

There is absoludly no reason to use anything but standart grade ware in a CZ( well an used ware is an option)
So you can cover the rest of the costs with what you save in ware.

I wasn't aware that drones had an Agility score at all. Since, you know, they're vehicles. (And if you're trying to argue as a munchkin rather than addressing the validity of their existence, please don't bother replying to my posts. You may as well just bring out a pornomancer to show how ineffectual a cyberzombie will be if that's the case.)


You're still paying for the blood mages and procedure at a delta clinic, which is prohibitively expensive. At that point all you're doing is going for an antimagic threat, of which many many better options exist. Few, if any, which will turn on you and go completely insane on a whim.

There's no drone chasis that could compete with a well-built CZ in functionality.
And anthroform drones piloted by cyborgs do have the equivalent of an Agility score, it's their Vehicle skill+ the drone's handling.
Which will not reach CZ functionality at all.

As far as price is concerned, yes, drones are cheaper.
But jarheads have both lower skill caps and lower attribute (resp. attribute equivalent) maximums than CZs, even with the most tricked-out drones and vehicles from Arsenal, the only exception being IPs and Armor.
Drones are the mass solution, CZ are the high-end application.
Of course, costs will explode once you get past a certain point, but that's the price you pay for being on the cutting edge.

And then, there's still the stuff only CZ superscientists can do.
How else do you get a Logic of 15 (22) but by turning your best (but terminally ill) research scientist into a CZ and slapping one monster of Increase Logic on him?
Even great dragons can't compete with that brain power, and they're the smartest thing to walk the earth.
Well, they used to be, before cybermancy, through steady research, advanced to the levels it has reached in the 2070s.

Imagine a corp would see that kind of potential in a new, not yet fully developed field of technology.
Don't you think they would put further research into that?
If i was amoral CEO of an evil megacorp (who without hesitation is selling out humanity to metaplanar horrors), i certainly wouldn't mind funding that kind of research.
As i've pointed out, it's not that expensive if you view it from the research angle instead of the "how do i mass-produce supersoldiers" angle.

As a AAA corp, you need a delta clinic anyway.
The only reasons not to hire a cybermancer to work there are possible PR desasters (which have never bothered the leading cybermancy corps, as they're used to hiding much more terrible stuff than cybermancy, such as vampiric cabals, blood magic, dissecting children's brains and so on) and the difficulty to find qualified personell (which is one of the reasons why there's only a dozen or so cybermancy.capable clinics around).

Just an aside, since your super logic guy is something I said earlier. Highest logic adder is +3. But you can take all three of the adder (genetic optimization, exceptional attribute, metagenic) and end up with a CZ with a 18 (21) logic, with with +2 or more bonus dice on logic test.

Give him a software skill of 6 (your choice), hot sim, a programing suite 5, and access to a nexis optimized for programming. He has a dice pool of 38 (40) to code by himself. Buying successes, he could produce maxed out code like none other. Heck, you could do almost the same thing with the hardware skill and have him design the most cutting edge hardware out there.

A super brain CZ is of far more use then a combat one. Stick him on a research space station to make life easier. Don't give him any combat ware, he doesn't need it at all. Bio and brain boosting stuff only.

Actually was planning an extraction game with one of these guys. I can just imagine the mage and shamans face on meeting him.

Which, once more, opens up the question how you bring someone down to the -6 Essence needed to reach such attribute values.
Using only delta ware makes this really difficult.
Moreso if you don't install combat ware.

This shows that, even though cybermancy has its uses, it may very often require practices reminiscent more of a mad scientist approach than cutting edge medical technology.

At least this makes the whole procedure a lot cheaper.



Had the same idea yesterday.


I don't think i'll be going all the way down to Essence-6 and will most likely stick to a character suffering from a fatal disease incurable even with 2070s technology.
Similarly, i'll aim for someone who's neither a mental adept nor SURGEd.
Probably i'll throw in Exceptional Attribute, though, as this should be a dedicated genius type to justify the whole procedure.
Qualities such as Analytical Mind and College Education are a must as well.



Now i'm thinking about the kind of 'ware appropriate for this guy.
Encephalon2 (1.5), Math SPU (0.15), Cerebral Booster3 (0.6), Neural Stimulus Nanites complete with a Nanohive (installed in a cyberlimb? Otherwise, 1.0 for level 2) and PusHeD geneware (0.1) are a must, as well as Genetic Optimization for Logic (0.2) and a Sleep Regulator (0.15).
Then there's Mnemonic Enhancer3 (0.3) and the Flashback System (0.3).
It can't hurt to install some top-notch skillwires (1.0) complete with Expert System (0.1) as well.


One may add in some senseware, too.
Eyes with microscopic vision are just the right thing for any hardcore nerd.
I'll probably go for Perception-enhancing stuff, too.
This would expand the character's capabilities, making him not only perfect at analyzing, but also at observing.

If he suffers from a disease similar to Thomas Roxborough's condition, limb replacements may also become an option.

Any more suggestions?

Look over all the genetic tweaks. There are some that might be useful. Also, Genetic Optimization in Intuition and Willpower are good as well. Logic isn't the only mental ability that makes a good scientist. A lot of discoveries are made by leaps of intuition followed by testing. You also need to drive to keep working through lack of sleep and all the other hardships.

Depending on what area he works in, anything that makes him more resistant to posions and disease might be useful. Implanted Biomonitors are also useful in dangerous enviroments.

Implanted commlinks and datajacks are very good, specially if he is a little absent minded about things. Keeps him from forgeting his 'keys' so to speak, the way you see modern big brains do. Also, he will have his calander and notes with him at all times. Actually, it might make him a little more absent minded since it makes him living and working in his head easier.

If the guy spent a whole lot of time in space, give him low strength and body, with possibly 1 level of muscle augmentation and bone density augmentation (or plastic bone lacing) as part of his recovery treatment.

If he works in a clean lab, then the Clean Meabolism bio is a very good buy. If he works in a vacuum lab (or a in space/underwater), an Internal Air Tank is another.

Quick-run down that gets you down to -5.955 essence for something like 350,000 (exact total depends on what accessories you load into the eyes and ears)

All of the following is basic grade, the cyberware is further second hand:

• Implant Commlink
• 3 Datajacks
• SIM Module
• Encephalon2
• Math SPU
• Attention Coprocessor (R 3)
• Data Lock
• Orientation System
• Simsense Booster
• Cybereyes (R4)
• Cyberears (R4)
• Simrig
• Skillwires (R5)
• Skillwire Expert System
• Biomonitor
• Invoked Memory Stimulator
• Nanohive (R6)
• Cerebral Booster (R3)
• Mnemonic Enhancer (R3)
• Reception Enhancer (R3)
• Sleep Regulator
• Genetic Optimization (Logic)
• PuSHeD

Some of it really isn't necessary for this guy, but it helps him branch out to cover other brainy roles as well - but can be dropped if there's more wanted/needed to help fill the primary role.

So you're saying corporations will regularly be creating cyberzombie superscientists who are going to go complately nuts if they don't start off that way already (and, despite what the rules say, should be far more prone TO insanity), become a liability, and develop all kinds of cancers and other things that they obviously can't solve with their superbrains by the simple virtue that no rules exist or have existed for curing it despite these superscientists apparently being a top secret mainstay of corporations for the ridiculously short amount of time they remain cognizant and useful?

And you're trying to use that as proof for why new cyberzombies in the 2070s are viable and (relatively) mass produced?

I think you're confusing your preference for abusing the rules and munchkinism in general with the concept of what a cyberzombie is within the context of the gameworld. By this kind of silly logic, every single person with the funds to do so should be a pornomancer as there's little anyone can do to stop one -- except another pornomancer with a lucky die roll to get the first "shot" off.

Me, I don't give a fuck how many dice you can cheese out of the rules. Cyberzombies -- conceptually -- are inferior to pretty much any other option in the game world. Kinda-sorta-immortality is trumped by Leonization and the fact THAT YOU DON'T GO INSANE. Combating magical threats is trumped by changelings, paracritters, and magicians and the fact THAT YOU DON'T GO INSANE. Hardcore military applications are trumped by special forces teams, ultra-deltagrade soldiers, drones, robots, jarheads, long-ranged weapons and the fact THAT YOU DON'T GO INSANE. Mythical superscientist are trumped by actual scientific teams, AIs, expert systems, lucky breaks, high-force task spirits, and the fact that no known advancement in the game has been the result of one, plus the fact THAT YOU DON'T GO INSANE.

Notice a trend there? I sure am.

No one knows if leonization will work forever. Leonization will probably not work if you are near death like Hatchetman was.



Cybermancy is the attempt to cheat death. Extra cyberware/bioware is not cheating death, it's prevent death to begin with.

Currently it doesn't seem like a better solution than leonization, though in certain circumstances it might be the only way to stay alive for a few more years, even if you would go crazy at some point.

If Cybermancy continue to improve, it might actually be a viable way for immortality at some point. SR is not at that point yet.

Right now it's only good when someone's really fragged up. Would you rather lose a valuable asset? Or keep him alive for another year or two? That really depends on how valuable the asset is. Any power he gained is just additional perks.




Also, using every tricks in the book to make a character that can fit all the deltaware into your body with essence left over and then saying that it's completely superior to cybermancy seems a bit like munchkinism as well. Though maybe the best way is for the supporters of CZ to build a CZ and the supporters of robot/cyborg/whatever to build one and compare the cost from the metamagic or qualities you need to the nuyen it cost.

[more sneak edits:]
cybermancy ritual might be a hassle, but aside from the drugs, you can give a CZ normal grade or maybe even second hand cyberware without worries. That makes certain repair and maintainence much easier. Where as if you outfit someone with a lot of deltaware, you are going to weep when the repair bills come.

I actually was not trying to point out something to mass produce. I was showing a way that the Corps could actually use a CZ to turn a profit. Also, super geniuses go insane already without being a CZ. The line between genius and insanity is very thin after all, often with great thinkers being thought insane for years after their death until they are eventually proven right.

Besides, CZ actually fit into the dark twisted world well. They also have the backing of a solid piece of fluff. Jar heads on the other hand, their kinda the new kid on the block that is actually worse for the money then a really good kitted out Rigger.

Yeah, that whole sanity thing after a couple years (maximum) is a real selling point for why it's superior to Leonization. One single treatment of Leonization gives you pretty much a second lifetime with zero chance (in and of itself) of making you go insane. So, yeah, I can see how you don't think its a better solution. /boggle


Cybermancy does make you physically immortal. It's the whole mental illness thing that, you know, gets you.


For the price? I'd rather salvage what I could from him and just train a new guy. You guys seem to ignore that cybermancy -- all by itself -- costs a fortune. Not the implants that come after. The actual ritual and proecdure to turn someone into one.


Those are extreme samples. It doesn't take a guy with MBW-3 for 1 point of Essence to match or even outclass a cyberzombie in terms of investment options.


Cyberzombies have maintenance issues wholly unrelated to their 'ware. Cancer, drugs, memory stimulations (yeah, another great reason why it's equal to or superior to Leonization), PR spinning, etc.

Question - Why dont they just Persona Fix CZ's and bypass all that annoying "Going Crazy" stuff?

Because personafixed personalities don't have enough force of will to keep the spirit bound to the dead husk of a body. The magics that enable CZs only go so far, and it's up to the -victim-patient's own will to live to make up the rest.