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MikeKozar
So I have an unusual situation, and I need some rules advice.

The players in my game were set up to intercept a deal - grab the goods, money, or both, and take out the traitor selling his boss' stuff. The buyer really didn't trust our target, however - so he set the meet to go down in a pyrotechnics factory.

His thinking was that any gunplay would set off an explosion, so the rational opposition would have to try and go melee against his Phys Adept Bodyguard. If the opposition decided to try and double-cross him anyway and the place went up, he had a magical insurance policy that would allow him to survive the blast (Gamemaster Fiat/Homebrew rules) and he had a *lot* of fire insurance on the building. He thought he was holding all the cards.

As always, the players are still holding the Joker.

Predictably enough, the players decided to take their chances and start a gunfight in the fireworks factory. When our last session ended, the next round of gunfire will set the place off (%80 chance and rising). The players are running away, but the bad guys have an initiative pass before the players get to go again. They're going to get caught in the blast.

I'd like to actually roll damage on this, and give the players a chance to survive if they roll well enough - our Troll could theoretically take a frag missile to the chest and come back, so I think it's worth giving him a *chance* to survive. On the other hand, there's a good case for a Darwin award here, so I don't want to just bail them out either.

So, Dumpshock forums: How would you handle a detonating facility? Any suggestions are welcome.

InfinityzeN
TPK, along with passing out a printed Darwin award to each player. grinbig.gif
X-Kalibur
I think they played the wrong joker, what they should have done was set up some explosives to take the place out without even needing to be nearby.
Bugfoxmaster
If the players don't want to have to all reroll, I'd suggest having them spend edge and try to survive (the troll seems like he might have a chance at it).

If any significant number of them don't, ask them if they'd like to be saved via hand of god - burning a point of edge, and find them a really Dues Ex Machina way out - getting flung out an open door by the explosion with heavy damage, or getting tossed out of the roof and landing in a nearby river... Or ina mattress factory.

This is (I think) what Hand of God is put in the game FOR... Feel free to contradict me on that, though.
your decision, really.Do YOU want them to survive?
WyldKnight
Ok, I know you want to give them a chance and it is completely up to you but they went into what basically is a GIANT BOMB guns a blazin. That's not a darwin award. That good sir is the Darwinian equivalent of the noble prize, the darwinian medal for life achievement. Sure you can give them a chance but also remember they brought this on themselves, at least a couple of them should die as a result if not a TPK.
Mx
If they have efde to burn they can't die, but that ofcource doesn't mean that they will still be playable characters after that explosin. wink.gif
Fezig
In PnP gaming in general, but especially with shadowrun, I have found that players must know their characters can die at any time if they screw up. That being said, the hand of god mechanic exists for a reason. If you allow for it, I'd say let them be blown clear of the blast....but they still ought to take massive damage. Also I'd throw in the fact that whatever security corp has the contract will show up and take them into custody unless of course they have a docwagon contract and can be extracted as part of the service. If extracted, that is their benefit for foresight. Once in custody, they may choose to do a run trying to escape or they may simply choose to roll up new characters.

I'd also be sure to genuinely run the explosion. Pick an arbitrary and logical amount of the explosive, factor in that they will go off in several blasts so not all explosive on site detonate at once, and run your damage. If one survives naturally, it is again their benefit for making that strong of a character. Also be sure to factor the explosives being dulled by going through barriers and on the opposite side of character advantage, be sure to consider the chunky salsa effect.
Bugfoxmaster
An interesting idea, taking from Fezig's post, is to run the explosions in combat time - you said the next IP will set the bombs off. Roll damage for some of them, near where the first stuff goes off. Then run a few more IP's, then have a second set of off, and continue that until you feel all the bombs and other pyrotechnics have been used up.

That way, it tests their intelligence (will they RUN, like they probably should?), gives them a way out (unless they massively fail the very first roll...), and is still realistic (bombs rarely go off at once like that - it'd be a chaned reaction, most likely, especially if any of them are fused or timed bombs, with any semblance of impact protection...).

And if they're dumbasses, they'll still explode.
MikeKozar
Thanks for the input, guys.

I like the idea of an IP where the blasts are just getting started - it gives the players a justification for being able to sprint away, but still get a facefull of Tactical Error.

At this point, I think I'm going to treat the main detonation as a Frag Missile with a DV of somewhere between 60-90. Using the standard explosives rules, for every 10m of distance the blast will lose 10P of power. Depending on how far they can get from the blast, it might be survivable - the Troll can soak 6 DV without rolling for it, has 14 Body and 14 points on the physical damage track, so if he takes less then 34 points of physical damage from the blast the healer might be able to get to him and get him out.

I'll make sure the other smaller buildings chain react, probably as a DV25-DV35 blast. This will probably not overlap the area the players are running to...unless they continue their winning streak by taking cover behind the shack marked WARNING: Explosives!

As a tertiary effect, they are in SSC/Eastern Washington in August in an agricultural area...there's a real good chance of this triggering a *major* firefighting effort to save the town. Everybody loves being on the news, right?
Bugfoxmaster
Oh, boy, your players are going to *love* you. (/sarcasm)
Brilliant idea - a giat media blitz about the fire would just make their days perfect - especially if the media discovered their hand in the possible forest blaze (though it'd serve them right for being morons...)
Totentanz
My style of GM'ing is to apply realistic consequences, so my advice is to do just that. Basically, determine the explosion damage and epicenter, as well as any other secondary explosions, and let 'em roll. Might make it more fun by making it dice instead of DV and have them roll all the d6's out. If they burn Edge to survive, that's cool, but the heat from the Star, their Johnson, etc, should be heavy. I mean, who is gonna hire the team that started a firefight in an explosives factory? I guess they might find themselves getting more distraction and over jobs. They might also end up getting scut work because nobody wants to take a risk on them. Your call on that one.

Finally, they might all just get surgery, burn their cred to erase their notoriety, and get the heck out of town.
Paul
Instead of TPK, why not wound the crap out of them? Lose a few legs, knock some cyberware out, destroy massive amounts equipment, hideous all over body burns, etc... Make them spend some time on the run, recovering, trying to live through what they did. Add in some attention from Local Law Enforcement (An Explosion that size doesn't go unnoticed), the ATF, maybe some Corporate Security, the FBI, etc... Ramifications for violent crimes can be a bitch.
Warlordtheft
Hey, they can spend thedge to survive. Note in arsenal they do have rules for old style explosives,
Chrysalis
How about instead of it being an explosives factory it is a fireworks factory.

Have all sorts of dangerous fireworks going off. Have the troll get hit by a large firework which goes off, burning like phosphor. Have the rest incur all sorts of fire related damage. Smoke bombs, big barrels of different coloured gunpowder, etc. An action movie extravaganza.

If you are nice they escape only with burns, if not have them wake up in hospital.

Now, give them the free disadvantage: Enemy (company)

and if they don't escape the other disadvantage: SINNER, which means they lose their SIN disadvantage with something worse.

Maybe this would be a good time to start up a Shadowrun edition of Oz?
Earlydawn
Yeah, I like the idea of a fireworks factory coupled with the classic creeping blast movie effect. You could turn the blast sequence into an hour all by itself. The first Max Payne game had a great sequence with a pursuing fire that you could use as inspiration. It would also allow for some pretty creative thinking by players. Hackers could try and get in and trigger fire suppression with AR hacking while high-tailing it out of there, the mage could try and wet down some full crates to slow the spread with magic on his way out.. less situationally-gifted players like the sammie tanks could make the decision to either bolt through an open door or take the four seconds to redline his cyberlimbs and smash the fire bulkhead shut. Don't outright kill him, but change his outcome depending on what he does.

Also, make them all burn edge to survive in the end. It's perfectly acceptable to allow them to survive this in a suitably cinematic way, but you've still got to drive home the idea that it wasn't a smart idea to begin with. Again, for maximum cinematic effect, have them survive in suitable ways after the edge burn. The sammie can simply charge out the front door and survive the subsequent shockwave. The mage can get blown out a third story window and buy an emergency cast of levitation with his point(s), making the plummet survivable. The hacker can burn his edge and have a serendipitious bit of luck, activating a deployable blast bunker in the factory lobby.

In the new Uncharted game for PS3, a trailer shows the main character and his female companion run through a building as it's collapsing. In classic action movie fashion, they make the jump to the neighboring building in the nick of time. Nathan turns around and, with an incredulous chuckling tone, says "We were almost in that!" as the building takes one last shot at bringing them down with it. Get THAT effect. Awesomely funny that the characters survived in half-believable ways, but yet an escape that they probably couldn't have done again if they tried.
hobgoblin
well the original post states that its a pyrotechnics factory. to me, that reads as professional scale fireworks...
Ravor
Meh, I know that it isn't popular, but personally I'd just have the factory blow and kill them all. Tis the only cure for stupid.
hobgoblin
hmm, about about 20 tons of rating 15 foam explosives? wink.gif

that should result in a damage rating of 2130, and a blast radius of about 1000 meters smokin.gif
W@geMage
Check out the news media coverage of actual firework factory explosions => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enschede_fireworks_disaster

QUOTE
Damage: A 500-square-metre (600 sq yd) area around the warehouse was destroyed by the blast. Around 400 houses were destroyed, 15 streets incinerated and a total of 1,500 homes were damaged, leaving 1,250 people homeless - essentially obliterating the neighbourhood of Roombeek. Ten thousand residents were evacuated. The damage bill eventually exceeded €1 billion .[3]


Their chance of coming out alive is fairly slim. eek.gif

hobgoblin
makes one wonder when one hear about someone storing illegal fireworks in their garage...
Doc Byte
QUOTE (W@geMage @ Aug 21 2009, 01:21 PM) *
Check out the news media coverage of actual firework factory explosions => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enschede_fireworks_disaster



Their chance of coming out alive is fairly slim. eek.gif


I remember the ground zero pictures from the news.

1
2
3
hobgoblin
looks like berlin after WW2...

the last image gives a access forbidden btw...

makes one wonder about the barrens...
StealthSigma
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 21 2009, 08:07 AM) *
makes one wonder when one hear about someone storing illegal fireworks in their garage...


Well, it's a factory, not a warehouse. Remember they're actually producing the fireworks there, so they have the raw explosives in far larger quantities.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 21 2009, 02:34 PM) *
the last image gives a access forbidden btw...


Should work now. - I hope.
Summerstorm
Hm... but your players KNOW that they might set it off? If i was a player i would shoot stuff in there to my hearts content since i would think it is completely safe. But when you are playing 80ies style B-movie action, where everything explodes from a bullet, i hope you told them that it will.

And if it is that playing style.. let them "outrun" the explosion. You know, it sizzle and fires up, small explosionse everywhere. Make some tests which determins how far they got and then BOOM. Nice damage code and they can crawl out of the debris looking like goddamn big heroes *g*. (And a heavily wounded slow guy which has to be rushed to the doc)
InfinityzeN
As I said, TPK. If one of those places goes up it is taking everyone around it out. Getting out of the building means you just die tired.

Oh, and Doc Byte, nice tag line. SB is my fav shadow poster.
DWC
Give them a choice. Burn Edge to survive, or die. If they burn the edge, it means that they were alive when the fire department and EMTs pulled their bodies from the rubble. They get hospitalized, and while they recover, are interrogated by OSHA and Knight Errant. If they are SINless, they get criminal SINs. Knight Errant confiscates anything illegal they have implanted (after it was removed by the trauma surgeons working to save the runners), and everyone gets a few skin grafts. Take a few limbs while you're at it.

How much KE (and eventually the FBI, once KE figures out what caused the explosion) screws things up for the PCs while they are in their comas and recovering from surgery is another story entirely.

The bad guy is dead.
Kev
In the vein of the horrible environmental damage an exploding factory would have, forget the media - local forest free spirit and/or eco-shaman! After they survive(?) the explosion, and just when they thought they met the worst of it, the TOXIC BEAST SPIRITS show up!

How exciting! ... At least it's the sort of come-uppance they could possible SHOOT their way out of. smile.gif
Bugfoxmaster
And then the Toxic beast spirits form two orderly lines on either side of the road, allowing a greatform Force 14 Toxic Nuclear spirit to come up. And in a deep voice, it announces:

"BURN, MORTALS"
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Aug 21 2009, 05:09 AM) *
Hm... but your players KNOW that they might set it off? If i was a player i would shoot stuff in there to my hearts content since i would think it is completely safe. But when you are playing 80ies style B-movie action, where everything explodes from a bullet, i hope you told them that it will.


Just prior to the gunfight, the players got to eavesdrop on the two teams meeting in the factory floor - the factory owner explained that the meeting was here specifically because the threat of catastrophic detonation should keep everybody honest. They were warned.

If the players could come up with a bulletproof scientific explanation for why it would *not* explode, I might have to consider that the owner could have been bluffing. This would have to be a serious oversight on my part - like if it was a warehouse of C4, which we all know requires an electrical detonator.

While simple impact might not set off the explosives, there is a good chance of it making clouds of black powder - a fuel/air bomb just waiting for a spark. When this cloud gets close enough to the barrel of a firing gun...or if flying debris should create a spark, or any other contrived justification I can come up with, I will deliver the promised massive explosion.

My follow-up game is tonight - thanks for all the help, guys.
Draco18s
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Aug 20 2009, 05:38 PM) *
I think they played the wrong joker, what they should have done was set up some explosives to take the place out without even needing to be nearby.


Nono. See, first you get an earth spirit to make a tube in the ground from the gas main to the building. Then an air spirit to funnel the gas from the pipe to the building (and contain it to the building), then you summon a F1 fire spirit and tell it to have fun.*

Wait. You said explosives were already in the building? In that case, skip to step 3: the F1 fire spirit.

*My group did this once. It was AWESOME.
benjin78
So I've read the whole post and I'm dying to know what happened?!?! Did anyone make it out alive?
McCummhail
Was the outcome worthy of the C.L.U.E. files?
Pedro
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 21 2009, 11:33 AM) *
hmm, about about 20 tons of rating 15 foam explosives? wink.gif

that should result in a damage rating of 2130, and a blast radius of about 1000 meters smokin.gif



Exactly Hobogoblin

Honestly I don’t think they stand much of a chance. Here is a video of what a fireworks stand, yes just the sale stand, looks like when it gos off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIo0JQe9JU

Personally though, if its an entire production facility its going to be more like this. (jump ahead to 45 secsonds).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KuGizBjDXo...&playnext=1

After watching something like that I think its time for people to burn a point of edge. This sort of situation is why Shadowrun is one of the more deadly RPG systems out there, and that’s why I play it.
Draco18s
You do have to remember in massive explosions like fireworks factories and such you can see it coming and Run Like Hell ™.

You might not get out of the blast radius, but you might get far enough to avoid being FLRM'd.

(FLRM = Fine Lingering Red Mist)
Bleifalke
A noob question: What is a Darwin Reward?

As for when the plant goes off, just show them this and scream: Game over man! Game over!
kzt
QUOTE (Bleifalke @ Sep 10 2009, 11:18 AM) *
A noob question: What is a Darwin Reward?

"You've just removed yourself from the gene pool. Here's your prize."
Bleifalke
Haha I need to give that reward to one of my players for what he did during the last gaming session. It was without doubt the most stupid thing I've ever seen anyone do in my 10 years of playing, and he totally died for it!
Ravor
Well, you don't have to actually die to recieve a Darwin, just remove your ability to ever have children.
CollateralDynamo
I'll bite Bleifalke, what happened?
Bleifalke
QUOTE (CollateralDynamo @ Sep 10 2009, 07:56 PM) *
I'll bite Bleifalke, what happened?


Sure. This is from a swedish fantasy setting btw. Huge campaign from 1989.

My player group find some old magical items in the catacombs of a dead ancient civilization. This is on a big island of frozen tundra (think greenland). Later the entire civilization 'wakes up' as undead and the players find out that the reason the civilization is dead and covered in snow is a result of some sort of major curse, couple this with the fact that magic items in this game are generally really dangerous and the players should have some idea that the items they found might have some hidden side effects and whatnot. Old magic in particular is dangerous as Mr. Demens, the talking dagger they found could inform them (as Demens was a magician before he botched a spell and became stuck in the dagger)

Now, that was just to give you a quick intro to the setting, here is what happened to the player in question (lets call him 'player A' shall we?)
  • Knowing all the stuff above, 'player A' examines a silver mirror she found in the tomb, there is some writing in Elvish, just as the player is about to read it aloud she gets a warning "there will be danger if you read this" (this PC is elven and they are often magical somehow in this campaign world, 'player A' in particular have limited ability so sense the future).
  • 'Player A' decides not to read the text
  • Two years later 'player A' has left the frozen tundra world and met a powerful necromancer (turned good) in a swamp
  • 'Player A' asks the necromancer if he can divine something about the nature of the mirror. The necromancer tells her that the writings might be dangerous to read while holding the mirror, he suspects the writings will activate a spell of some sort.
  • Some months later a new magician PC joins the group 'player A' decides to ask the new magician if he can say anything about the magical mirror
  • 'Player A' grabs the mirror from her backpack and immedeatly reads the text to the new magician PC...

At this point I look at the player with wide open eyes and with a bit of hesitation goes "...so ...you hold the mirror and reads aloud what it says" while making a slow circular motion with my hand as if I was waving a wand or something. "Yes" replys the player. One second later he realize what he just done. The situation calls for a quote from 'The Return of the Jedi' *in raspy dark emperor voice* "Young fool, only now, when it's to late, do you realize..."

That activated a spell of farseeing, growing continuously more and more powerful. Normally it would be a very useful tool to the PCs, except for the fact that in this game spells are powered by the soul of the caster (don't worry, the soul "heals" while resting), furthermore there seems to be no way to turn the spell off and since this is a really old magic item they didnt know how to properly power the spell, so the poorly constructed magical mirror is powered by the users own soul, and the spell costs points, each round... Suffice to say that the player died, and not only died but got her soul completely and utterly destoyed, this happened after 3 min playing that session, my record for earliest PK! Later by magical analysis, they found out that there was a hidden message to turn it off... (seems like the mirrors creator was a bit sadistic)

So yeah, next time we meet ill print out a poster with


-----------------------------------------------------
Dear Elwing
you just removed yourself from the gene pool
here is your...

Darwin Award

congratulations

love
/GM
-----------------------------------------------------
The Jake
Your players have gone all in on a shifty hand, calling their opponent, thinking they're bluffing. No joker here, they got a 2 and 7 and are about to raped by a royal flush.

TPK plus Darwin awards sounds appropriate. Just don't forget the use of Edge.

- J.
Ravor
Meh, I hate the new Edge rules, I miss the old days when Hand of God was something you could only do once and then required DM permission.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 11 2009, 08:35 AM) *
Meh, I hate the new Edge rules, I miss the old days when Hand of God was something you could only do once and then required DM permission.


My group runs as you can spend it any time, it's always there, but once per character.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Aug 21 2009, 03:21 PM) *
Oh, and Doc Byte, nice tag line. SB is my fav shadow poster.


Uh, thanks. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (Pedro @ Sep 9 2009, 06:02 PM) *
Honestly I don’t think they stand much of a chance. Here is a video of what a fireworks stand, yes just the sale stand, looks like when it gos off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIo0JQe9JU



And now the big one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S52p2AMISFk
hobgoblin
btw, do not underestimate commercial(3) explosives when measured in tons.

10 tons and you got a blast radius of 150 meters, and a starting rating of 300.

even at 50 meters, your looking at rating 200.

at 100 meters, thats rating 100.

hell, if one build a 500 pound bomb out of max rating foam or plastic, you looking at rating 238 and 119 meters radius.

and the fun part happens if a wall gets destroyed, as then the radius doubles downrange from that.
kzt
Simplified easy to used explosion systems work fine for a kg or 10 of explosive. They go to hell when you start dealing with car bomb sized charges. Once you are into multiple tons the mechanic produces just totally absurd results.
hobgoblin
could be, i'm no chemist nor explosives expert...

not really surprising tho, as nature seems to hate linearity of any kind...
Draco18s
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Sep 12 2009, 01:18 PM) *
could be, i'm no chemist nor explosives expert...

not really surprising tho, as nature seems to hate linearity of any kind...


Well, your RPG could use calculus for the rules...

(There's one out there that does, I would link it if I knew the name)
hobgoblin
space opera?
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