Full Version: Killing hands and Adepts
| QUOTE |
| Hey Digital: I'm a big fan of adepts too, but if they've got a mage working security who's gonna assense the samurai, odds are the adept is gonna get pegged too. |
Yeah, but it's not illegal to be an adept. And if said adept initiaties and gets Masking, he's invulnerable to casual assensing attempts. In a high-traffic area, with lots of people going in and out, the adept won't get more than a cursory astral scan unless he really stands out.
| QUOTE |
| Sammie walks up to the Sec Guard, "Mr Johnson is coming. I'm here to secure te area for his arrival. I'll be taking over. Your services are no longer required." Pulls out SIN and other (well-faked) permits, shoves Sec Guard aside, tells Sec Mage he's relieved. Obvious cyberware reinforces the image that he is obviously more qualified than low Sec Guard. Adept says, "Please Mr Sec Guard, please stand down. I've got no guns, just my bare hands." |
Adept pulls out well-faked SIN and other permits. Sec guard looks at the orders, decides he's not being paid enough to question orders, and goes away.
All you need are good fake orders. You could have an otaku show up with good papers, and Joe Rent-a-cop will follow along. In fact, an otaku (with a higher charisma) is more likely to convince Joe that he can wait until later to call and confirm the orders.
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| All you need are good fake orders. You could have an otaku show up with good papers, and Joe Rent-a-cop will follow along. In fact, an otaku (with a higher charisma) is more likely to convince Joe that he can wait until later to call and confirm the orders. |
This just reminds me of when my Otaku (12 years old) posed as a student from a corp school shadowing someone. ^_^
...of course, that was the Run from Hell, sooo..
A minor detail. You convinced them enough that they were trying to avoid hitting you at first.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| A minor detail. You convinced them enough that they were trying to avoid hitting you at first. ~J |
And I actually wasn't killed! Yay!
Did you roll perception to see if the NPC's noticed that the kid had a datajack? ^_~
| QUOTE (Seige) |
Hey Digital: I'm a big fan of adepts too, but if they've got a mage working security who's gonna assense the samurai, odds are the adept is gonna get pegged too.  -Siege |
First set, yeah, Adept'd be pulled aside... but that's asuming there even is a mage actively assensing persons passing. Second Adept, the Expirienced one, has Masking... so Mr. Assensing Mage'd have a tougher time picking him up, while cyber scanners'd still pick up Mr. Sammie...
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Sammie walks up to the Sec Guard, "Mr Johnson is coming. I'm here to secure te area for his arrival. I'll be taking over. Your services are no longer required." Pulls out SIN and other (well-faked) permits, shoves Sec Guard aside, tells Sec Mage he's relieved. Obvious cyberware reinforces the image that he is obviously more qualified than low Sec Guard. Adept says, "Please Mr Sec Guard, please stand down. I've got no guns, just my bare hands." |
And any reasonable SecMan would go "who the frag is Mr. Johnson?" as that's a psued used for quasi-legal activities, not corp terminology... plus permit or not, he calls his CO for instructions, and the second the Sammie lays a hand on him he gets red flagged... plus the mage on duty gives the rasberry to the Sammie, who has no authority over him, and would be showing great ignorance by thinking he could relieve awakened support...
The adept is never unarmed. While the Sammie has to rely on technology for lethal combat (be it a gun, sword, spur, etc), the Adept merely uses his body. Guns aren't the end all and be all of combat. Not to mention having guns in the first place flags one as a security risk.
The object, as you seem to have missed it, was to -pass through- the security checkpoint undetected, not draw an arseload of attention to oneself.
| QUOTE (k1tsune) | ||
And I actually wasn't killed! Yay! Did you roll perception to see if the NPC's noticed that the kid had a datajack? ^_~ |
Given that for most of the applicable time you were face-down over Yves' shoulder, no.
~J
| QUOTE |
| You advocate cyberlimbs? |
In a bodyguard that's supposed to look like a bodyguard? Hells yes. Nothing says "I'll mess your shit up" like a shiny metal hand. Besides, there's just so many surprises that you can put into them.
| QUOTE |
| The only real obvious bits of 'ware I could think of would be datajacks and either dermal armor or dermal sheathing. |
Dermal armor is actually something that I think is one of the least socially acceptable ware, at least for most of the races. The only person who's supposed to look like a troll with a bad case of dermititis is an actual troll with a bad case of dermitis.
Datajacks are, IMO, common enough as to be almost completely beneath notice.
| QUOTE |
| Cybereyes aren't particularly obvious unless you choose to get them chromed. |
Or blued, or swirly, or leopard spotted...whatever. I just think that obvious eyes are another effective (yet generally acceptable) way to say "I've got metal, so don't screw with this guy I'm standing behind."
| QUOTE | ||
In a bodyguard that's supposed to look like a bodyguard? Hells yes. Nothing says "I'll mess your shit up" like a shiny metal hand. Besides, there's just so many surprises that you can put into them. |
As a PC option? I've aways found them to be overpriced and not enough return on investment.
| QUOTE | ||
Dermal armor is actually something that I think is one of the least socially acceptable ware, at least for most of the races. The only person who's supposed to look like a troll with a bad case of dermititis is an actual troll with a bad case of dermitis. |
Unless, of course, you're a bodyguard and aren't nearly as expendable as the armor jacket you're wearing.
| QUOTE | ||
Or blued, or swirly, or leopard spotted...whatever. I just think that obvious eyes are another effective (yet generally acceptable) way to say "I've got metal, so don't screw with this guy I'm standing behind." |
That's a matter of interpretation, I suppose. It's flamboyant and draws unwanted attention to you and possibly the person you're guarding. Some employers may prefer a bodyguard that doesn't draw more attention than absolutely necessary.
And if you're guarding a conservative suit, he (or she) may not appreciate such gaudy fashion accessories. It would be like showing up to a corporate board meeting with an earring in some companies.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||||||
Unless, of course, you're a bodyguard and aren't nearly as expendable as the armor jacket you're wearing.
That's a matter of interpretation, I suppose. It's flamboyant and draws unwanted attention to you and possibly the person you're guarding. Some employers may prefer a bodyguard that doesn't draw more attention than absolutely necessary. And if you're guarding a conservative suit, he (or she) may not appreciate such gaudy fashion accessories. It would be like showing up to a corporate board meeting with an earring in some companies. |
In one breath you advocate Dermal Armor which, as was said, is close to one of the least socially acceptable implants, and in the next you denegrate obvious cybereyes as attracting too much attention.
In my opinion, people would react less favorably towards the dude with the Dermal than they would to the guy with leopard spot eyes.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Dermal Armor which, as was said, is close to one of the least socially acceptable implants |
Why is that, though? Personally, my skin (followed perhaps by bones) would be the first thing to go if cyber- and bioreplacements became available. It's just a strip of dead stuff coating me. Augmenting or replacing it completely would seem like not a big deal to me. Dermal Armor is described "anything but subtle" but also that it can come in any texture or color, so basically it would look just slightly misshaped. Dermal Sheaths don't seem to have any trouble in that area.
So if I was talking with someone who's had his skin replaced, I wouldn't feel very funny. Just a different, better, layer of dead stuff coating him. I would definitely feel weird talking with someone who's had extremely significant parts of himself (like eyes or arms) replaced, and actually shows it off.
I can make the same argument about almost any piece of cyberware though. There is no differentiation in canon as to cutting off your skin vs. cutting off your arm. Both supposedly incur social penalties.
The argument that it feels weird talking to someone who's had something replaced, or talking to someone who's showing off the fact that he's got something replaced? Because Dermal Armor (and certainly Dermal Sheath) don't show it off, but leopard spot cybereyes or shiny chrome arms certainly do.
Another simple mind game to play with yourself: Consider how bad you feel when you see skin cut up/ripped/burnt/whatever. Consider how bad you feel when you see a whole arm cut up/ripped/burnt/whatever. Consider how bad you feel when you see someone's eyes cut up/ripped/burnt. Skin is simply not that important a part to a human being, we're not that attached to it.
Another simple mind game to play with yourself: Consider how bad you feel when you see skin cut up/ripped/burnt/whatever. Consider how bad you feel when you see a whole arm cut up/ripped/burnt/whatever. Consider how bad you feel when you see someone's eyes cut up/ripped/burnt. Skin is simply not that important a part to a human being, we're not that attached to it.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| There is no differentiation in canon as to cutting off your skin vs. cutting off your arm. Both supposedly incur social penalties. |
With that in mind, the earlier argument that "Dermal Armor [...] is close to one of the least socially acceptable implants" is not very well founded.
I'd say that dermal armor would be as noticeable as an obvious cyberlimb. Dermal armor is probably also incredibly uncomfortable to non-trolls. Wether dermal sheaths are actually common in your games is up-to you but I doubt many high-class body-guard types would, favouring dermal sheaths if anything. Then-again, most bodyguards in my games are expected to go everywhere with the suit and the sort of upper-class establishment which might reject someone for not wearing tres-chic clothes would also look-down upon a bodyguard with obvious and/or intimidating 'ware that might disconcert the other patrons.
Leapord-spotted eyes would also be looked-down upon under corp circles as breaks from the standard "uniform" corp look.
Leapord-spotted eyes would also be looked-down upon under corp circles as breaks from the standard "uniform" corp look.
Dermal plate used to be the only option for bodyguards.
Now with dermal sheathing, it's probably the more common choice, certainly over dermal armor.
That being said, dermal sheathing is easily concealable in an acceptable fashion -- the majority of it covered by a suit jacket and pants.
Cybereyes could easily be concealed by sunglasses, but some people will look at a character oddly if he's wearing sunglasses indoors at the corporate HQ. Trust me on that one.
Fortune: as to socially acceptable, in a corporate setting dermal protection is more easily concealed and even if it's noticed, it's classified as a datajack -- something integral to work and considered as such.
Compare that to something exotic and decidedly personalized like leopard spot eyes.
Now, if you're looking for style points on the local club set, you'll get more points for the leopard eyes moreso than the dermal armor.
-Siege
Now with dermal sheathing, it's probably the more common choice, certainly over dermal armor.
That being said, dermal sheathing is easily concealable in an acceptable fashion -- the majority of it covered by a suit jacket and pants.
Cybereyes could easily be concealed by sunglasses, but some people will look at a character oddly if he's wearing sunglasses indoors at the corporate HQ. Trust me on that one.
Fortune: as to socially acceptable, in a corporate setting dermal protection is more easily concealed and even if it's noticed, it's classified as a datajack -- something integral to work and considered as such.
Compare that to something exotic and decidedly personalized like leopard spot eyes.
Now, if you're looking for style points on the local club set, you'll get more points for the leopard eyes moreso than the dermal armor.
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Dermal plate used to be the only option for bodyguards. Now with dermal sheathing, it's probably the more common choice, certainly over dermal armor. |
It has to be said that they don't need dermal cyberware to be a bodyguard. It increases your survivability, but not getting anything installed dermally would probably be the first choice for a bodyguard working in the corporate sector. When the choice is between X fully-trained bodyguard with dermal srmor, and Y fully-trained bodyguard that won't be separated from you every time you eat in a restaurant, I'd choose bodyguard Y.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| That being said, dermal sheathing is easily concealable in an acceptable fashion -- the majority of it covered by a suit jacket and pants. |
Dermal sheathing is probably hard to notice, AFAIK Dermal plating covers your face/neck which would be quite obvious. I'll need to check my books on that when I get home though.
You don't _need_ dermal protection to be a bodyguard, however:
Bodyguard A is down and expiring messily while Bodyguard B is hustling his employer to safety while absorbing gunfire.
Wanna guess which one has dermal protection?
-Siege
Bodyguard A is down and expiring messily while Bodyguard B is hustling his employer to safety while absorbing gunfire.
Wanna guess which one has dermal protection?
-Siege
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Bodyguard A is down and expiring messily while Bodyguard B is hustling his employer to safety while absorbing gunfire. Wanna guess which one has dermal protection? |
The guard without dermal armour can't absorb gunfire that much more effectively than the one without it. Also: consider what else the guard without dermal plating would have bought/had installed with the money saved on dermal dermal plating, and gained from the extra hours with the suit in tres-chic areas.
I'd guess that the one that went down was the one with dermal armour as the one without dermal armour may have bone-lacing, muscle replacement (= quickness = combat pool for dodging/soaking), reaction boosters so he acted faster, or a higher body attribute from simply spending the dermal plating guy's surgery recovery time in the gym training.
I'd guess that the one that went down was the one with dermal armour as the one without dermal armour may have bone-lacing, muscle replacement (= quickness = combat pool for dodging/soaking), reaction boosters so he acted faster, or a higher body attribute from simply spending the dermal plating guy's surgery recovery time in the gym training.
He couldn't have gotten a higher Body by working out in the gym since he's not a shadowrunner and couldn't earn Karma!
Humor aside, if we're debating the merits of a reflex package over body protection, I'll grant you moving faster is better than not.
As for the tres chic locations, if your guard is wearing the much-vaunted suit and tie, etc. how likely is the tres chic going to detect the enhancement and will they turn away a corp's bodyguard when, if he is important enough to warrant one, does the tres chic restaraunt want to alienate portions of the select clientele they're aiming for?
-Siege
Humor aside, if we're debating the merits of a reflex package over body protection, I'll grant you moving faster is better than not.
As for the tres chic locations, if your guard is wearing the much-vaunted suit and tie, etc. how likely is the tres chic going to detect the enhancement and will they turn away a corp's bodyguard when, if he is important enough to warrant one, does the tres chic restaraunt want to alienate portions of the select clientele they're aiming for?
-Siege
| QUOTE |
| Because Dermal Armor (and certainly Dermal Sheath) don't show it off, but leopard spot cybereyes or shiny chrome arms certainly do. |
Dude, Dermal Amor consists of big, lumpy metal and plastic plates bonded to someone's skin (it is not a skin replacement). How is that less obvious and 'creepy' than someone with spotted eyes?
And incidentally, your skin is certainly not dead. It is a fully functioning organ.
| QUOTE |
| Bodyguard A is down and expiring messily while Bodyguard B is hustling his employer to safety while absorbing gunfire. |
Orthoskin and bone lacing.
| QUOTE (TheScamp) |
| Dude, Dermal Amor consists of big, lumpy metal and plastic plates bonded to someone's skin (it is not a skin replacement). How is that less obvious and 'creepy' than someone with spotted eyes? |
Dude, I know what it consists of, but it's not showing it off unless you color it purple or make distinct shapes out of it. Someone simply having cybereyes is very, very different from having leopard spotted cybereyes. Same for a concealable cyberarm vs a polished chromium cyberarm.
The topmost layers of skin, which is what you usually look at, is mostly dead. The bottom layers are of course alive, so that more skin can be produced all the time.
Back on topic (sort-of) how do people think Adepts compare to Sammies at bodyguarding? There's no chance of offensive 'ware and you could possibly take voluntary geases on powers, saying that you can only use them in the defense of another. The Talisman Geas would also be a snich as you are very rarely going to be asked to bodyguard without gear.
The emotion sensing, and quick strike (or whatever it is called) powers would be very good for a bodyguard. Astra perception and a weapon focus would also put them in great demand.
Also physads just recently became significantly stronger with the half magic loss from bioware thing.
Also physads just recently became significantly stronger with the half magic loss from bioware thing.
| QUOTE |
| Someone simply having cybereyes is very, very different from having leopard spotted cybereyes. Same for a concealable cyberarm vs a polished chromium cyberarm. |
Well, sure; because no one knows they're there in the first instances, and thus are kind of difficult to figure into whether or not they're socially acceptable.
Okay... this is my attempt to see if this is too cheezy. Say I have an adept. I get him a cyber arm so I can fill it with all sorts of goodies. Can I the make that cyberarm his talisman?
Let the flames begin.
-Czar Eggbert
Commin out of my Shell
Let the flames begin.
-Czar Eggbert
Commin out of my Shell
| QUOTE (Czar Eggbert) |
| Say I have an adept. I get him a cyber arm so I can fill it with all sorts of goodies. Can I the make that cyberarm his talisman? |
No, because, having been paid for with Essence, the cyberarm is considered part of his body (assuming he's had it implanted, and he's not just carrying it around in his backpack - in which case it would be perfectly valid, though strange.
) It would be like trying to count your fingernails as a talisman.
| QUOTE |
| I get him a cyber arm so I can fill it with all sorts of goodies. Can I the make that cyberarm his talisman? |
A much easier solution as far as rules are concerned would be to simply build in a compartment that you could open and pop in a standard type talisman. Or just use a body compartment or something.
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