Maybe instead of telling people not to, you should just tell people what's happened in some instances -- like people preordering a book and not receiving the book because it's not finished, which is why they preordered it -- and let them make up their own minds?

I'm not saying there aren't incidents of them dropping the ball when it comes to communication or distribution (or both)...but in some instances, people are all up in arms about stuff that were very clearly preorders without an established date of completion. Just like it wouldn't be fair for me to go to my local auto dealer and be all pissed off because they don't have any 2057 models in yet, it's a little unfair to be impatient when you paid money for something you knew in advance didn't exist yet.

As you mentioned, BattleCorps is the SALES arm, not the production and manufacturing arm of Catalyst. So how exactly are they failing at their jobs? They can't ship you what they don't have.

Last we heard, it was a printing, shipping and distribution problem, not a sales problem. The product is complete and done. Getting it to paper form is the hold up. Toss blame if you want, but toss it in the right direction.

7 Months ago they told us: There will be a LE. More than two months after the normal Printing there has been no sign of it, no pic, no preview, no description of "its gonna be awesome because" I've seen on Shadowrun4.com...



I got nothing...

So what, I have to believe, thats all ? Sorry, for that timeframe not enough for me.

I'm not like Sinner667 and will go on a rampage against CGL&battlecorps, I'll buy from both in the future, but as I said: no printed books from BC anymore...

At this point, I'm just writing the Limited Edition off as a potentially excellent Christmas present. *grin* It's okay, I have the PDF version and our current game isn't even implementing any of the changes since we're mid-career, but having the new charts and tables of existing stuff has been REAL helpful.

My advice for money and sanity-saving? Don't pre-order. Wait until there's an actual product available for purchase. Then buy it from a local games store or an online RPG-specialty retailer like frpgames.com.

Simple.

You... you would use the LE actually? At your gaming table, where all the players with their grease-covered fingers sit?

How does not pre-ordering save money, if you buy the book, anyways?

I pay for my pre-ordered SR4A LE, when I get it. After I get it, in fact.

No difference, other than I do not have to check availability all the time to not miss it in the end (so clearly no problem with the sanity there either).

Bye
Thanee

That is something I think CGL would not discourage. In fact, with the RED program I think they are leaning more towards wanting people to support their FLGS. If people are going there to buy Shadowrun books and talk about their last Shadowrun session, there's a greater chance of pulling more people into the game.

Apologies for my being over-simplistic. By not pre-ordering you don't deal with "lost orders" and the usual complaints and headaches that can happen from ordering from a vendor with weak fulfillment practices. Not Shadowrun but I ordered my Eclipse Phase book through a different vendor when it was released in print. It was discounted from cover price and the cost savings were about the same if I had pre-ordered from Catalyst.

Shop around and ask around. There are other online vendors out there that can offer comparable savings. If you can wait to order.


I don't NOT support this idea but I can't muster any enthusiasm for it.

The FLGS, unless it's one of those few that is upscale and run with a solid business plan, isn't the place to get people into SR or any P&P game. Most shoppers at FLGSes, in my experience, are casual browsing or know what they want. Staff recommendations are usually made for the big, expensive items, like the Twilight Imperiums of the table-top world as there are definable criteria for these types of game (ease of play, price, age appropriateness, etc) that is supplied by the publisher. Kind of like selling a car. Everything else depends on if a staff member has even played the product.

Other than WotC/Hasbro-produced products, P&P RPGs sit in that weird middle world between cheap and expensive gaming that no one, except WotC, seems to know how to market. All the gamers I know order their books through cheaper online vendors rather than paying full-store price. And can you imagine a clerk trying to sell a non-D&DP RPG to a grandma looking for a Christmas present for her teenage (grand)kid? Ugh, that would be so awkward.

Anecdote: I joined a new SR group. They had never even played the game until this summer's GenCon. And these people are moderate-to-hardcore gamer nerds.

The FLGS can sell the product but unless they step up and push it, and from what I've seen they don't, it seems pointless to push the RED program. Others may have different experiences.

Pulling people into a game depends on good word of mouth, incentives, smart business practices and advertising, advertising, advertising. If an RPG publisher doesn't do those four things then they're on the road to becoming the next Mongoose... or TSR. WotC's D&D 4e push in Wired and other mainstream publications may have seemed cheeky as it poked fun of the lonely nerd lifestyle of the WoW gamer but it struck some sort of chord. WotC may be the 400lb. gorilla but advertising isn't limited to dying print magazines.

Not necessary. The vendor I order from always has good prices; they don't charge extra when a book is new.



Wouldn't that be six?

Bye
Thanee

What the hell? I ordered a copy of SR4A, and the Runenr's Companion-new-from Amazon and my estimated ship date is January or February? Huh!?!? I'm not sure if that's what has been going on in this thread, but seriously what the hell? I have a game scheduled for this week, like I do every week.

SR4A is out of stock and they are soing a second print run. Amazon is probably waiting for its next shipment. Adam mentioned that in a post on October 6th.

Catalyst has been busy. With the massive success of CthuluTech and the critical acclaim of Eclipse Phase, they probably don't have the printer time they wished they did.

And then there are all those Battletech books.

BlueMax

Paul, my advice would be to pound pavement...or call around at least. Physical locations still have some stock, but from what i understand most places around the net are well sold out.

Amazon is known for being awfully slow on RPG books - combined with the fact that SR4A is sold out and awaiting its second print run, that explains the long shipping time.

The other thing to keep in mind with Amazon orders is that AFAIK, Catalyst does not sell to Amazon, for various reasons. This means Amazon is going through a 3rd party for any books you're getting (Or more likely, a 3rd party is selling through Amazon).

In either case, yeah, as was said, apparently the SR4A print run is sold out.

Bull

Crap I wish I'd known. Teaches me not to read every single thread on DSF, every day. ;P But seriously I've always had great luck with Amazon. Of course I think it's because I rarely order new stuff as it's released. (SR4A is my first real new release.)

Heh, shame on you Paul!

(Hell, like *I* read every thread on Dumpshock. I'd shoot myself after a week )

Amazon isn't bad because they're basically a clearing house. Even if they're not directly carrying it, they have a lot of partners and affiliates that sell through them. However, they seem to have some really shady business practices that I'm not too fond of. There's a reason why they can often offer huge discounts. They're the Wal-Mart of online retail, and that has both good points and bad.

I've always been lucky enough to have a local game shop that can/will get me whatever I need if they don't carry it (and they usually do), and between my distrust of the mail system (I've had too many things lost in the mail over the years) and my need for "instant gratification" (I loath waiting on stuff in the mail), it generally works out better that way. So I either buy from the LGS, or I buy directly from the company at the cons (THis is actually my preferred method, since the companies make a greater profit off my purchase, and it helps offset the costs they lay out to attend the convention). I generally pick up a book or two every year from green ROnin for this reason, plus will usually grab the new releases for Shadowrun.

Bull

I so need to get my ass organized and actually get to a Gen Con. FLGS are in rare supply, unfortunately, around here-but I continue my campaign for them to stock Shadowrun, and it's sister games!

Slacker. (Your guess which part I mean...)

Where abouts in MI Paul? If you are in the SW close to South Bend, there's the Griffon Bookstore downtown South Bend where I generally get all my SR books (except for SR4a which I got at GenCon). Or there's a couple in Kalamazoo that my friends go to.

Grand Rapids, so it's still just cheaper to order online compared to a drive like that.

White Cap Comic's isn't any good?

White Cap Comics
430 Cummings Avenue NW
Grand Rapids, MI 49534
(616) 785-8518

I've never heard of the place. I'll have to Google it and see where it's at, and then check it out.

So, not even as Xmas-Present... We're was the problem telling your customers that a month ago ?

Personally, I don't believe a word of it.

Remember, this is a company that got people to pre-order a product, then took their money, then stayed very quiet about what's going on.
Hardly trust inspiring, is it ??

I mean, don't they know their own schedules that they can tell people what's actually happening and behave in a professional manner - you know actually sort out their print runs, or sort out their deliveries ??

That would actually require them to be a professional company...
...Not a bunch of amateurs, who think they can compete with professional companies.

Being a small scale company isn't a bad thing - many do it and do it well.

I'm a customer...
...They promised a product.

They repeatedly fail to deliver on that promise.

In some jurisdictions, taking money and not delivering the promised product is fraud.

I got an email from Amazon about 3 weeks ago saying that neither they or their sources would be able to secure a copy of the 20th Anniversary book in the conceivable future and that my order would be considered cancelled.

I bought the last copy from Chimera Hobbies in Appleton, WI when I was on vacation.

As they've never promised a street date, it very technically only becomes fraud if they cancel the line but don't refund the purchases. So far, they've not actually broken a promise, just a bunch of "we hope to have it by XXXX" statements.

Yeah, it's semantics, but it'd likely hold up in those jurisdictions, like it or no.

You and the massive, ungainly, chip on your shoulder are welcome to leave whenever you want to.

No one held a gun to your head and told you to order, no one promised you the book by a certain date, and no one's forcing you to come to the forum about this game produced by that unprofessional bunch of amateurs.

If you try to take the legal view don't mix up contractually binding delivery dates, and "expected delivery" statements. There are lots of products that get delayed, done by much larger companies.

Nice job Critias. Shut me up before I even started my whiny-bitch post.

So instead... has anyone received their copy yet? Are there pictures of a finished book yet? Heck, I'm not even too sure what I purchased anymore but I'm hoping for "awesome". Was there suppose to be something more than "SR4A with cool cover"? I'm cool with the delays (especially after Critias's preemptive smackdown).

And lay off CatLabs, Synner. Be grateful that they're keeping this game alive.

I'm expecting a numbered leatherette, personally. previous edition's Limited Edition Rulebooks were basically that. (A black leatherette with foil imprint on the cover, an extra internal panel announcing the limited edition and the number of that particular copy.)

It'll look sweet on the shelf and is well worth the wait; the only reason it was delayed in the first place was because they wanted to get the general release out first (which, let's be honest, is better for the game.)

I'm glad to hear that the SR4A run has sold out, it's not the first time that a game company has sold faster than they can print, after all

Do the preorders actually cost up front? I do not order from them directly but through a FLGS and at least I only pay for it after I received the book (might be that the FLGS pays up front, I don't know that).

Bye
Thanee

Don't know if your FLGS has to pay upfront, I really hope he doesn't have to...

If you pay your preorder with paypal (some people have to do that...) you pay upfront... no other way to complete your order.

And if things do not go as planed (like you have to wait about more than a half year for the book) nobody feels responsible if you want your money back. For example I canceled my order and got a confirmation on that on Nov. 4. - and now its a month since that and I haven't heard a word more than "It's canceled" or got a cent back from the Quartermaster@battlecorps...

So if somebody meets that guy, just give him a few friendly kick towards his desk, he should find 3 or 4 mails from me now... and yes, I know, its not funny. For me neither...


Edit:
Okay, after a new mail on January 5th 2010 I finally got my money back- with the different exchange rate and the paypal fees I only lost about 8 Euros of the 70 I paid.

Yeah, that's definitely not cool.

Bye
Thanee

Don't. Don't ever pay up front. If your FLGS requires that you do that, find another store.



That's the downside of PayPal. It's the equivalent of giving someone a stack of cash. You don't have the protection of the US Federal Trade Commission's Fair Credit Billing Act. And most major credit card vendors don't permit a merchant to bill prior to shipment of an item. However, PayPal does allow a purchaser to file a complaint within 45 days if an item is not received.

So if you're going to use PayPal, make sure you know what the street date of an item is in order to stay within that 45 day window.

Been a month since anyone mentioned it near as my search-fu can tell... anyone received an English lang Limited Ed SR4A yet?

I'm quite sure that when the LE is available you will see it both here and on shadowrun4.com

Lars