Degausser
Sep 18 2009, 12:34 AM
Okay, so the Base book has indicates that you should be tag-erasing yourself all the time. Especially before a run. Get rid of those RFIDs telling every node that pings them about how awesome "Ares Super Breakfast Bars" are. But, uhhh . . .
IS there a piece of equipment called a "Tag Eraser" in the BBB for 4th ed (I don't play 4a, some stuff I don't like.) I know I could GM caveat and say that it costs X
but I wanna know if there are actual rules for it.
CanadianWolverine
Sep 18 2009, 01:01 AM
Could have sworn I came along one in the Gear section of Fanpro's SR4, haven't read that far in Catalyst's SR4A just yet (skimming over less). I think I found it on the same page as the Jammers, which I was looking at thinking about how to keep guards from giving away a shadowrunner's presense by sounding the alarm when they have a commlink on them, which I assume is standard - especially if they have a biomod on them and a Spider Rigger watching their signals as they go around on patrols, even considering false positives being filtered.
And I would guess it would be up to GM expectations and the desired pace of game if a player needed to declare using a tag eraser all the time. Though it would be interesting to learn that to be real Pro, you would need to custom make everything you can from its base components to avoid a hidden tag, at least from a fluff perspective.
Dragnar
Sep 18 2009, 01:10 AM
It's in the BBB, under "Communications", page 330. That's for SR4A, but IIRC it was listed in the original book as well.
EDIT: And why are you refusing to use lots of good changes because of a few you don't like? Wouldn't it be easier to just not use the ones you disagree with?
Degausser
Sep 18 2009, 01:19 AM
As for why I don't use 4a, some of it is the changes, but I dunno. Maybe I'll take a look at the book again, see what's what. For one thing, the extra drain that mages take seems to make them pretty bad, but I could be misreading the rules there.
Glyph
Sep 18 2009, 01:54 AM
They made that ill-conceived monstrosity an "optional" rule, but SR4A still left a bad taste in my mouth because of all of the lame rules changes it backdoored in. Including the fact that it made Karmagen, previously my favorite method of char-gen, unusable (and still no errata). I have SR4 already, but if they had limited themselves to new art and some clarifications and expansions, I probably would have bought a copy of SR4A, too.
In SR4, the tag eraser is on page 320.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 18 2009, 02:52 AM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 17 2009, 06:54 PM)
They made that ill-conceived monstrosity an "optional" rule, but SR4A still left a bad taste in my mouth because of all of the lame rules changes it backdoored in. Including the fact that it made Karmagen, previously my favorite method of char-gen, unusable (and still no errata). I have SR4 already, but if they had limited themselves to new art and some clarifications and expansions, I probably would have bought a copy of SR4A, too.
In SR4, the tag eraser is on page 320.
And yet, Karmagen was greatly overpowered compared to BP Builds... No wonder so many people liked it... You could have your cake and eat it too... No nead for any Hard Decisions... What was there not to like about it? Personally, I am glad to see karmaGen "nerfed"...Here's to hoping it is never errata'd
Keep the Faith
Glyph
Sep 18 2009, 03:52 AM
Karmagen wasn't nerfed. It was put into limbo until there is an errata. Currently, the 375 Karma limit on all Attributes, including special ones, makes it harder to create a viable awakened character or technomancer than it is using build points. My personal experience with karmagen echoes Cain's assertion that players tend to min-max less when they have more points. So what's your problem with other people "having their cake and eating it too"? You don't like something yourself, so you're happy (and publicly gloating) when it gets wrecked? You're kind of being an asshole here.
TheOOB
Sep 18 2009, 04:59 AM
Karma gen is fine except that now it is very harsh to awakened/technomancer characters.
Glyph
Sep 18 2009, 05:01 AM
Yeah, I guess it's a good thing that hardly anyone plays awakened characters.
Jaid
Sep 18 2009, 05:34 AM
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Sep 18 2009, 12:59 AM)
Karma gen is fine except that now it is very harsh to awakened/technomancer characters.
so yank the 50% cap on attributes, make it not apply to special attributes.
the only official campaign does not accept karmagen that i know of, so such a simple houserule is not exactly a huge problem to work out.
McAllister
Sep 18 2009, 07:04 AM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 18 2009, 01:34 AM)
so yank the 50% cap on attributes, make it not apply to special attributes.
the only official campaign does not accept karmagen that i know of, so such a simple houserule is not exactly a huge problem to work out.
Seconded! It doesn't apply to special attributes in BPgen, I see no reason not to apply the same in karmagen.
Same issue with freebies for knowledge skills. Makes just as much sense in one system as the other. Methinks sloppiness.
X-Kalibur
Sep 18 2009, 07:20 AM
QUOTE (McAllister @ Sep 18 2009, 03:04 AM)
Seconded! It doesn't apply to special attributes in BPgen, I see no reason not to apply the same in karmagen.
Same issue with freebies for knowledge skills. Makes just as much sense in one system as the other. Methinks sloppiness.
This.
Starmage21
Sep 18 2009, 01:38 PM
the rule in regular SR4 for tag erasers was hard and fast. You turn it on and get it close to any regular RFID and it gets burned out. Any hardened tags and such are immune.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 19 2009, 06:11 PM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 17 2009, 09:52 PM)
Karmagen wasn't nerfed. It was put into limbo until there is an errata. Currently, the 375 Karma limit on all Attributes, including special ones, makes it harder to create a viable awakened character or technomancer than it is using build points. My personal experience with karmagen echoes Cain's assertion that players tend to min-max less when they have more points. So what's your problem with other people "having their cake and eating it too"? You don't like something yourself, so you're happy (and publicly gloating) when it gets wrecked? You're kind of being an asshole here.
We have had this conversation in the past, and it never gets solved to anyone's satisfaction...
You just don't get it, and I am okay with that... To Each His Own...
Keep the Faith
ZeroPoint
Sep 19 2009, 07:42 PM
This is not a conversation on BP vs Karmagen. If you want to continue your discussion, find one of the already existing threads on this subject.
As Glyph stated before, the Tag eraser is on pg 320 of the original 4th ed core book.
Tag Eraser 6F 150
Must be brought within 1 centimeter of the tag to erase it (no test required), so its not really a quick process to erase all the tags on your body.
And as previously stated, no effect on security tags.
Degausser
Sep 19 2009, 07:58 PM
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Sep 19 2009, 03:42 PM)
This is not a conversation on BP vs Karmagen. If you want to continue your discussion, find one of the already existing threads on this subject.
As Glyph stated before, the Tag eraser is on pg 320 of the original 4th ed core book.
Tag Eraser 6F 150
Must be brought within 1 centimeter of the tag to erase it (no test required), so its not really a quick process to erase all the tags on your body.
And as previously stated, no effect on security tags.
Wait, 1 CM??!! So, like, how do you erase tags that are INSIDE of you? Like in the story, with the guy who ate a breakfast bar and got caught. Is there a better tag eraser?
Glyph
Sep 19 2009, 08:15 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 19 2009, 11:11 AM)
We have had this conversation in the past, and it never gets solved to anyone's satisfaction...
You just don't get it, and I am okay with that... To Each His Own...
It's not hard to "get". You're a roleplaying nazi and a flamebaiting troll. But I'm glad we have someone to fill the aching void in all of our lives now that Creepwood is no longer posting on the forums.
Khyron
Sep 19 2009, 08:25 PM
QUOTE (Degausser @ Sep 19 2009, 03:58 PM)
Wait, 1 CM??!! So, like, how do you erase tags that are INSIDE of you? Like in the story, with the guy who ate a breakfast bar and got caught. Is there a better tag eraser?
You tie a string around the tag eraser and swallow and wait an hour, then pull it back out. Hopefully it'll get close enough to work. Otherwise.. well.. it probably won't fit the other way up.
Jaid
Sep 19 2009, 09:52 PM
QUOTE (Degausser @ Sep 19 2009, 02:58 PM)
Wait, 1 CM??!! So, like, how do you erase tags that are INSIDE of you? Like in the story, with the guy who ate a breakfast bar and got caught. Is there a better tag eraser?
sure, all you gotta do is stuff an EMP grenade down your throat
(warning: may have side effects)
(on a more serious note, you should be able to have nanites that go through your stomach on a seek-and-destroy mission for RFIDs)
X-Kalibur
Sep 19 2009, 10:06 PM
Or, you know, tag erase your candy bars BEFORE you eat them...
Jaid
Sep 19 2009, 10:59 PM
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 19 2009, 05:06 PM)
Or, you know, tag erase your candy bars BEFORE you eat them...
alternately, i would argue that restaurants* would likely not put RFIDs into their food, personally. they would get it shipped in and the containers would have RFIDs, perhaps, but the food itself would not.
* and by restaurants, i mean to exclude fast 'food' locations wherein edible substances of some form or another are served in wrappers or dropped into bags.
MusicMan
Sep 19 2009, 11:17 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 19 2009, 04:52 PM)
sure, all you gotta do is stuff an EMP grenade down your throat
Shoot yourself with a HERF gun...
Jaid
Sep 19 2009, 11:31 PM
QUOTE (MusicMan @ Sep 19 2009, 07:17 PM)
Shoot yourself with a HERF gun...
i had considered that, but i'm not entirely sure how well that would work through a human body. i mean, water would tend to dissipate the beam, would it not? and of course, there's that saying about how the human body is mostly water. then again, that doesn't mean the human body has all the properties of water (at least, last i checked, i tend to maintain a fairly standard form not based on my environment, for one thing)
Muspellsheimr
Sep 19 2009, 11:34 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 17 2009, 07:52 PM)
You could have your cake and eat it too...
Why the fuck would I want cake if I could not eat it? Because it looks pretty?
That is easily one of the most ill-conceived sayings there is, & yet people continue to use it all the fucking time.
CanadianWolverine
Sep 20 2009, 12:05 AM
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 19 2009, 04:34 PM)
Why the fuck would I want cake if I could not eat it? Because it looks pretty?
That is easily one of the most ill-conceived sayings there is, & yet people continue to use it all the fucking time.
Think it through, while the cake remains in your possession, say hands or sitting on the table, it still looks like a cake, all pretty and stuff but once you start eating it, all its good looks go away. I know it is a weird saying if you equate "having" to "my stomach is full" but it can make sense if you look at it from like a baker / cake decorator point of view. Ever watch that Cake Boss or whatever it is called show on TLC?
Tachi
Sep 20 2009, 03:11 AM
Fuck the cake...
The cake is a lie...
Besides, everyone knows that cookies are where it's at...
Degausser
Sep 20 2009, 04:40 AM
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Sep 19 2009, 06:06 PM)
Or, you know, tag erase your candy bars BEFORE you eat them...
Most candybars are more than 1 CM thick . . .
ZeroPoint
Sep 20 2009, 05:09 AM
I personally find the idea of RFIDs in food quite silly. But thats just me.
Glyph
Sep 20 2009, 05:24 AM
I agree with you there. I can see it on the outside of things, on clothing labels and such, but putting it inside food so that it can be swallowed strains plausibility for me.
CanadianWolverine
Sep 20 2009, 05:30 AM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 19 2009, 10:24 PM)
I agree with you there. I can see it on the outside of things, on clothing labels and such, but putting it inside food so that it can be swallowed strains plausibility for me.
For some reason I picture this as being done based on a stupid corp managers decision, like his engineers were explaining to him ways that the candy bars could stop having the tag removed so they could be stolen easier from the Shack and the solution he got dead set on was putting it in the candy bar itself, not even thinking of ramifications to the consumer ... if you eat enough RFID tags, do you get a build up of toxins from the component materials? You know, let alone making some Runner's mission a FUBAR ... heck he manager probably even figured it was a great marketing move, walking billboards advertising their product and having the consumer identified as part of sub-culture like Pepsi vs Coke or some other advertising BS, like the ultimate product labelled t-shirt
Gotta wonder if fashion might be determined not necessarily by the clothes themselves but how fashionable your RFID tags that go with them are based on the AR they broadcast to the commlinks of others around them. "Your AD is so yesterday, loser." -elf poser "Aww man, I told my parents this shit was weak for being last week." -ork poser
Tachi
Sep 20 2009, 06:04 AM
QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Sep 20 2009, 12:30 AM)
*snip* heck he manager probably even figured it was a great marketing move, walking billboards advertising their product and having the consumer identified as part of sub-culture like Pepsi vs Coke or some other advertising BS, like the ultimate product labelled t-shirt *snip*
That's pretty much how I figured it.
Ravor
Sep 20 2009, 06:31 AM
Personally I figure that the corps simply don't care whether or not the tags in your food is toxic or not.
As for houserules and nazis, meh, that works both ways, it's just as easy to make a houserule that brings karmagen back into the fold, and in fact the
easiest houserule of just making the atts carry the new costs could even be taken as dev statement about "proper dicepools".
( Yes, that was partially tounge-in-cheek. )
*EDIT*Corrected a really stupid typeo...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 20 2009, 05:07 PM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 19 2009, 01:15 PM)
It's not hard to "get". You're a roleplaying nazi and a flamebaiting troll. But I'm glad we have someone to fill the aching void in all of our lives now that Creepwood is no longer posting on the forums.
Neither a Nazi nor a Troll, but thanks for your opinion...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 20 2009, 05:11 PM
QUOTE (Degausser @ Sep 19 2009, 09:40 PM)
Most candybars are more than 1 CM thick . . .
Sooooo, tag erase from both sides... fives you almost an inch of thickness to affect, most candy bars are not an inch square...
Easy Peasy...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 20 2009, 05:13 PM
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 19 2009, 11:31 PM)
Personally I figure that the corps simply don't care whether or not the tags in your food is toxic or not.
As for houserules and nazis, meh, that works both ways, it's just as easy to make a houserule that brings karmagen back into the fold, and in fact the
easiest houserule of just making the atts carry the new costs could even be taken as dev statement about "proper dicepools".
( Yes, that was partially tounge-in-cheek. )
*EDIT*Corrected a really stupid typeo...
And with This Ravor, I would Agree... Using adjusted Attribute costs would bring the control back to Karmagen and I would then have no problems with it...
Glyph
Sep 20 2009, 07:50 PM
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 19 2009, 10:31 PM)
Personally I figure that the corps simply don't care whether or not the tags in your food is toxic or not.
As for houserules and nazis, meh, that works both ways, it's just as easy to make a houserule that brings karmagen back into the fold, and in fact the
easiest houserule of just making the atts carry the new costs could even be taken as dev statement about "proper dicepools".
( Yes, that was partially tounge-in-cheek. )
*EDIT*Corrected a really stupid typeo...
My original complaint was that the new rules put Karmagen in limbo. The problem with house rules is that they are specific to one gaming table. But an earlier poster was right, that the Karmagen question was derailing the conversation.
Back on topic -
As far as the corps not caring whether tags are toxic or not, I'm not sure. Even the most evil corporation to exist doesn't want to kill off the people who
buy their stuff.
Khyron
Sep 20 2009, 08:29 PM
The question is does the corp higherups even know if it's toxic or not? No doubt even they eat their own product. The larger the corp the more Bureaucracy. Remember, the Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding Bureaucracy. Things get lost in the paperwork explaining the paperwork detailing the paperwork that explains the health effects.
Glyph
Sep 20 2009, 09:33 PM
Bureaucracy, insular institutions that don't share information with each other, and an overwhelming glut of information are how I rationalize runners being able to get away with what they do in a society where everyone and everything can be a camera.
However, considering that RFID tags in food would be a conspiracy theorist's dream to begin with, I don't see how toxic chips could go undetected for very long. But again, like ZeroPoint, I kind of find the idea of these things inside food slightly too silly to begin with.
kanislatrans
Sep 20 2009, 11:56 PM
I agree, putting rfid tags in food would be as silly as hiding tracking software in ads that monitor a consumers computer usag ....oh, um... never mind...
ZeroPoint
Sep 21 2009, 01:50 AM
Eh, this is the way I think about it. Some corp gets the bright idea to put RFID chips in their food. Someone gets wind of it (someone with a sniffer program notices their candy bar is still emitting a signal after they unwrapped and ate it, or someone...one frikken person working in one of the hundred manufacturing plants around the world that is lacing RFIDs into their food...sends the story to Horizon or whatever news corp...news gets out and millions of paranoid consumers avoid them like the plague. Think back to recent food and other recalls on products out of china, or more recently the drop in sales of pork products because of the H1N1 virus (aka swine flu) even after numerous stories and public statements all urging that you can't get it from eating pork. After the corp loses millions of dollars, they are weakened and get scooped up by one of the megas. Now all the corps have learned the lesson about putting foreign objects in food.
PirateChef
Sep 21 2009, 10:02 PM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 20 2009, 02:50 PM)
Back on topic -
As far as the corps not caring whether tags are toxic or not, I'm not sure. Even the most evil corporation to exist doesn't want to kill off the people who buy their stuff.
Looks at the tobacco companies.Sure no one would do that.
As far as RFIDs in food, I think the biggest perpetrator of this would be the corps on their own employees. Eat in the company cafeteria, get tagged. Easy way to keep track of everyone in the building without their knowledge.
As far as public outcry goes, I think one of the main themes that make up SR is the idea that the populace is more than willing to give up privacy for security. So the public would probably be willing to 'swallow' the idea of ingesting a small harmless chip if they get something out of it.
Degausser
Sep 21 2009, 10:50 PM
so there is no way to erase tags besides the 1CM close tag eraser? Seems pretty stupid.
Johnson meets runners at a fast food joint, runners eat, then they cannot run for the next24 hours while they wait for the tags to "come out the other end." Unless they all wanna tag erase their food at the table in front of the Johnson, seems like that would be socially impolite, though.
kanislatrans
Sep 21 2009, 11:28 PM
I don't recall where RFID tags are toxic (although I may have missed it somewhere)
My dogs all have chips imbedded from the vet for ID purposes. pretty safe even today.
Public out cry is fickle at best and easily distracted. Just watch the news during an election year.
Just put it out as a "here to better serve you" or " to help protect you from evildoers" spin
I can almost see the commercial now...*kanis's eyes glaze over....*
Pan camera, happy family enjoying meal at McHugh's. parents turn to catch little Bobby running from table and turn back...zoom in on little Suzies empty red and yellow seat....cut to parents franticly searching parking lot for lost child..
Manager approaches family:"what seems to be the problem?"
Frantic mother: "Please help us!!! we can't find our daughter..she was right here and now...."
Manager: "Hold on a sec,ma'am!" Manager brings up AR window" Did your daughter have the Smiley meal with Soy fries and Choco-joy double thick drink?"
Parents look confused:" why yes she did!"
Manager turns to the McHugh's fun world playarea:"Shes presently coming down that slide."
Pan to Suzy emerging from slide, smiling and laughing....
Parents sigh in relief and hug manager before heading to the play area to join their daughter...
Narrator:"McHughs , Fun and safety go hand in hand"
zoom to parents holding Suzies tiny hand....fade in McHughs logo......fade to black....
Brazilian_Shinobi
Sep 22 2009, 12:53 AM
QUOTE (Degausser @ Sep 21 2009, 07:50 PM)
so there is no way to erase tags besides the 1CM close tag eraser? Seems pretty stupid.
Johnson meets runners at a fast food joint, runners eat, then they cannot run for the next24 hours while they wait for the tags to "come out the other end." Unless they all wanna tag erase their food at the table in front of the Johnson, seems like that would be socially impolite, though.
I don't think that you have to rub the tag eraser on the tag to get it erased. I think that if you rub it on your belly is good enough to erase it. What I'm really pissed off about it is that there is no way to erase security tags unless you use a mini-EMP...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 22 2009, 01:03 AM
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Sep 21 2009, 06:53 PM)
I don't think that you have to rub the tag eraser on the tag to get it erased. I think that if you rub it on your belly is good enough to erase it. What I'm really pissed off about it is that there is no way to erase security tags unless you use a mini-EMP...
Why be upset about that?
Ravor
Sep 22 2009, 01:05 AM
Personally because I don't think it makes sense, but then again I wouldn't allow the "rub my belly" thing to work either.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 22 2009, 01:09 AM
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 21 2009, 07:05 PM)
Personally because I don't think it makes sense, but then again I wouldn't allow the "rub my belly" thing to work either.
Yeah, the "rub the belly" thing is a little odd, I have to admit... But hardening of electronics (or the 2070 equivalent) so that it takes a fair amount of "power" to render useless, that makes absolute sense... we harden electronics now... may not be greatly effective against what it was intended to do, but Tempest hardening was/is an attempt to produce an electronic device that could resist EMP of a powerful nature...
Like I said, not sure exactly how well it really works, but with 60 more years fo technology advancement, it at least makes sense...
Keep the Faith...
Ravor
Sep 22 2009, 01:16 AM
On "real" electronics sure, but I have a hard time believing that security tags can remain small enough to be useful with all that hardening.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sep 22 2009, 01:18 AM
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 21 2009, 07:16 PM)
On "real" electronics sure, but I have a hard time believing that security tags can remain small enough to be useful with all that hardening.
Possibly/Probably... it is the 2070's though...
Ravor
Sep 22 2009, 01:23 AM
Well, part of the problem that I have is that it's "all or nothing", I wouldn't have a problem if your easer had to roll in order to zap the tags, and security tags were slightly harder to get, but then again I'd also increase the range and give a bonus if the easer was touching the tag...
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