Sadly yeah, I'm pretty sure that Concealment was supposed to work on the Astral as well, which makes it pretty much a "must have" in addition to breaking the general rules of how magic is supposed to work.


One of the reasons that I've houseruled it back into line.


*EDIT*

Hemm, it seems that I was ninja edited... Hmm, I suppose that you'd deal with high force spirit concealment in the same way that you deal with any stealthy characters, have chokepoints where being undetectable isn't really an option and use sensors that don't care whether or not you can be seen.

Since I'm playing with rotating DMs, I'm trying to avoid house ruling since we all have to agree on any house rules, and we're trying to go pretty much by the book. Houserules are a slippery slope with this group... we add a few "perfectly reasonable" house rules and then some of the other DMs want "perfectly reasonable" house rules that are in fact far less reasonable. So, is there any way to do this without house rules? I notice it says it only applies to rolls to perceive a target... once located you should be able to fire freely. And would things like spray foam work to locate things?

JaronK

RFID Tags should work, although the spirit itself could simply fade into the Astral and drop said tags. And of course, FAB is always an option.

Fragging double post.

High force spirits are game breakers. A F12 spirit is nearly immune to non-magical attackers who don't have an armor company or an attack helicopter platoon with them. If the spirit has countermagic and magical guard (24 dice of countermagic...) the only thing that can fight them is a close combat adept adept, and the spirit will almost certainly kill the adept on a hit. (as they do 12P base with 24 dice). This assumes you can find the spirit with -12 to your perception roll....

Many of the obvious combat spirits have energy aura, so every time the adept hits the spirit the adept gets to take 12P, and the adept is unlikely to get 24 dice to resist this, like the spirit does to resist the adept, so you better have distance strike....

I mentioned it earlier, but I'm in SR3. So, no RFID tags, but also no countermagic. And really, the spirits themselves aren't a huge issue in my group, it's just the concealment power they provide.

JaronK

This is blatant misinformation... Synner stated it weakly once then immediately recanted in that thread. Everyone always points to the one occurance then don't scan the thread (massive long thread) where he comes back and says the same thing he had been saying all along.

Against a sensor, the OR is 3. Against a Sensor Suite it's OR5. What's the difference... never really said... but drones are equipped w/ sensor suites. (they have a suite w/ a sensor capacity which they filll, plus they have an autopilot/agent which constantly monitors them, ESPECIALLY if the drone in question is running a clearsight autosoft).

If it's just a dumb security camera that records everyone coming through the door, maybe tries to do facial recognization... yeah OR3.

Quite frankly... there is nothing wrong in the game w/ mages being weak against technology, just as mundanes are weak against mages.


Also to the OP... any kind of serious combat helicopter will be warded. The spirit will have to break through the ward before it can get into the cockpit or machinery space. Also there is no room to materialize inside a rigger cocoon, he'd literally be beating on the cocoon to get to the rigger (assuming the spirit even knows the rigger is in there!! remember spirits may be smart but their alien to this plane... he may materialize inside the van and torch everyone and not realize there's a rigger in a special armored bean bag chair out of sight but in plain sight.

Chill Falconer, it is not Misinformation, it is a Mistake... Yeah, I did not read through all several hundred posts so it is possible that I missed the recant... It happens... But I still stand by my statement (call it a house rule then if you like)...

As for Magic being weak against technology, I have absolutely no problems with that in the least... the FACT is that regardless of whether you use OR3 or OR5 for sensors on Drones, there are still sensors that will completely ignore magical concealment or other tricks...

And, if you are using the rational that a sensor suite is tougher than a simple sensor, well, you have just crossed that line of simplicity... What makes a suite? multiple sensors by the definition you are using (it is more complicated than a single system)... therefore, almost any sensor system (except an RFID Sensor) is an actual suite as there are more than a single sensor emplaced in them... therefore any electronic device with more than a single Sensor counts as a suite?... Glasses, therefore, with a Motion Sensor, Mad Scanner, and Camera counts as a Sensor Suite, and now I am immune to the illusionary (sensorium at least) whims of the spellcaster because my OR is now a 5... Ludicrous indeed don't you think?

Just Sayin...

Keep the Faith

This is more-or-less what I'd do with it, as well. Movement should effect the target numbers for perception in any case, and there's no reason that wouldn't remain true with Concealment. Concealment adds X number of dice, yes [or effects the TN, depending on the version], but all the standard Perception modifiers should still apply.

If Concealment were still gamebreaking, I'd look into developing some logical countermeasures; what is gamebreaking for the players would be gamebreaking for the characters, and thus would lead to research in-game regarding countermeasures, in the same way FAB grew out of various astral exploits noticed over the years.

Hey, That works...

Keep the Faith

At least in SR3 Concealment is gamebreaking. It adds Force to all perception TNs to locate the target. Off a Force 8 spirit (our group has a few mages with Magic 9 and one with Charisma 10) it's basically always on invisibility that stacks with other modifiers and applies to all kinds of perception. The only countermeasures I've been using are guards that drop area attacks (like nerve gassing an area where the friendly guards are all chem sealed... not appropriate in most situations) and having sensor operated doors that won't open without detecting you.

JaronK

In SR 4 it reduce dice pools by the Magic Rating... Pretty brutal for high force spirits...

Keep the Faith

"Any kind of serious combat helicopter will be warded. The spirit will have to break through the ward before it can get into the cockpit or machinery space." - Falconer

Wards will not remain on anything that moves. As soon as the vehicle moves, the ward dissipates.

How about a FAB lined interior vehicle mod.

FAB is cheap if you've got the access...

That is incorrect.

Yep, the warded copter is totally viable, but the ward is only on the inside of the vehicle.

Wards are of limited value as an active defense, because it's easier to make high force spirits than it is to make high force wards.

Because of the dangers of spirits materializing in cockpits, logically any combat vehicle would be designed so that the rigger would control the craft from inside an armored cocoon which had no open space available for a spirit to materialize in. If the vehicle had a troop compartment in it, that compartment would have no direct access to the pilot's cocoon except possibly.

Secondary defense might include artificially-induced background count via a vat of Moon Lillies, or high-powered toxins/pollution. I'd lean toward the Lillies myself, since they wouldn't be deadly to the crew if the container seal broke.

Edit: Designing cockpits so there's no room for materialization wouldn't help with possessing spirits. But we generally choose people with high willpowers to be riggers anyway, and a background count that reduced the spirit's force by a few points would give the pilot a decent chance to resist. Since they're rigged in, and spirits can't rig, the worst that could happen if the possession worked would be the loss of the vehicle/pilot. At least the possessed pilot couldn't effectively be turned against its own side.

To kzt & Ravor:-

Street Magic
"Astral security"
"Wards"
"Remaining stationary"

"Wards are not portable astral objects.... If the physical anchor moves more than a few centimeters from its location at the time of the warding ritual, the entire ward collapses. Ward designers must carefully choose their physical anchors; choosing an object that must be moved obviously makes a poor choice."

They've clarified what they mean about anchors, wards, and under what circumstances moving an anchor collapses a ward.
From the SR4 FAQ:

Can a ward be placed inside a moving van?
"A physical anchor cannot move more than a few centimeters relative to the ward enclosure when the ward was created." That's the key phrase and it can be pretty tricky. For instance, if you create a domed ward outdoors using a rock as the physical anchor, and then someone kicks that rock a few feet, the ward will collapse. It has moved more than few centimeters from its position relative to the domed ward at creation. But, if you ward a shipping container using the walls of that shipping container as the physical anchor, and the shipping container is shipped across the Pacific Ocean, the ward does not collapse. The entire warded enclosure is moving, so in the relationship between the ward and physical anchor, it hasn't moved at all from its relationship at the ward's creation.

As an aside, this is also why the spin of the Earth doesn't cause the domed ward around the rock to collapse. Because the entire enclosure is moving with the rotation of the Earth. Until someone kicks that rock, the relationship between the ward and stone remain the same.

It's also spelled out a bit more explicitly in the errata:

Concealment sucks. It's a poorly written power and it's giving me a headache. It doesn't make sense. Magic in Shadowrun tends to make sense, you can imagine what's happening. Concealment, not so easily. First, here's the power:

Concealment
Type: P Action: Simple Range: LOS Duration: Sustained
This power refers to a critter's ability to mystically hide itself or
others, or alternatively to hide something that people are looking
for. Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter's
Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject.
Concealment can be used on a number of targets simultaneously equal
to the critter's Magic; concealed subjects can see each other if the critter
allows it. Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal
themselves and others from astral detection.

This is how I'm ruling it. Concealment only helps when a perception check has to be made to notice a character affected by Concealment. In other words, this power does not force a perception test to see you, it only makes it harder to find you when you are hidden or in other ways obscured. I don't believe that the power itself says that it forces a test, it only provides penalities to Perception Test. Do you have to make a perception test if someone walks by you or to notice someone crossing a parking lot? No. No perception test, no concealment. In addition, if someone is using a simple action to Observe in Detail this does not all of the sudden mean Concealment kicks in. So basically if you're using Infiltration then you're getting benefits from Concealment. Otherwise you're visible.

That's how I'm interpretting the rules. Everyone else, do whatever you like.

Kind of how we run it and it works great for us... Hope it works for you as well...

Keep the Faith

As far as I can tell, that is exactly what it does. All it says is it creates a penalty when the test occurs, it says nothing about inherently forcing a test. That being said, it takes a very sloppy runner to not use infiltration when doing anything where they'd desire having the concealment power on...