Not at all, in that generation time frame I can't think of a single other game that is futuristic and has NANs. What other came has futuristic Elven Principates?

Now Corporate states, yeah I can think of a whole slew of those games off the top of my head. it is very cliche'.

It isn't just those areas either. The whole way the Middle East was finally developed in the last years of 3rd and the little bit in 4th has been very blah for instance. The uniqueness and conflict of stereotypes was a big part of what made Shadowrun so awesome and much of the development of SR has just been to make it a more "modern" setting that can connect to real life.

Also the whole argument that others have that "well 4th Matrix isn't more borken than 3rd" is not a motivator to give up an existing edition. It isn't that 3rd edition didn't need improvement, but it didn't get improvement it simply got a reboot to a more blase' setting that had the same number of mechanical difficulties.

The elimination of the 25 different magic systems was kind of nice.

What we liked about 4th was that it made low skills at least somewhat useful and it allowed someone to get a general idea of the difficulty of a test without needing a spreadsheet. "If I give the PCs a roll with 6 dice and a target number of 11, what are their odds?" "If it's a target number of 13 or 10, how does that change it?"

Since you chose not to reply to my rebuttal of your "High Fantasy" claim or clarify what you mean, I will have to do more inference from your latest statement. It seems to me that you think that Shadowrun started out as being far more "fantastic" than it was. The sourcebooks on the two Tirs did not try to make them out to be some kind of Elfland out of Lord Dunsany. You seem to be disappointed that Southwest Asia was not developed as a magical land a la Arabian Nights. If you want a setting full of magical wonderlands unconnected to the real world, then run with it. The setting material is the easiest part of this game to ignore. Judging the actual rules system is an entirely different issue.

I wonder how many games were on the market in 1989 that featured "corporate states?" Not many at all, IIRC. This aspect has become more common in RPGs since then. Even then, I don't think it's cliche. Quite the contrary, in fact. The theme of Corporatocracy is just as topical as it ever was.

re: the more "modern" setting. That's what the original authors were doing; they connected to their modern day of the late 1980s. If you got your wish and Bob Charette were brought back to help with SR4 I don't think you'd get anything much different from what we got. The only reasons you could think that SR1 was not connected to it's own "modern day", just as 4th edition is, is that you are either too young to remember the 80s or you are old enough, but have lost perspective.


I think the SR4 matrix rules are noticeably better than any previous edition, in that I'm actually using them in a game I'm running. I never had a PC decker previously; I just hand-waved all the Matrix stuff away with NPCs. This is all my opinion, and if you like a previous edition's rules better, then great. I like SR1, SR2, and SR3. I like SR4 better yet. I don't think the setting is more blase at all. I think that your problem is that as the setting has been expanded and detailed over time it hasn't conformed to your "High Fantasy" ideal, however you're choosing to define it.

I have to agree here about the Matrix Rules... SR4 MAtrix rules are actually playable, where earlier editions were not... in no game prior to 4th edition was a Decker allowed as a player character in any of the groups that I played... Deckers were people that you went to to get information and it was always run in the background... they are actually very playable now... who cares if the MAtrix as portrayed in 4th is not as realistic as the real world... that is not a concern, it is a staple of Cyberpunk Genre and it works...

Keep the Faith

Judging by the number of threads no-one actually plays the SR4 matrix the same. So what the rules are is something that people can use to get close enough to a solution that works based on what they read.

Keeping the thread on topic, I would make the following changes to Shadowrun to reboot it:

1. Change the "Japan menace" to the "China menace".
2. Balkanization via multiculturalism run rampant (cf The Diamond Age)
3. World Cyberwar II to redraw the lines of political states +
4. Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations spreads across the world and sets the stage for:
5. Global megacorporations as final guarantors of community safety

Throw in dragons, elves, etc. as per usual, but emphasize zombies as a global factor as they're now a popular public trope.

Oh, and thanks to Ravor for having the most knowledge and wisdom in this thread.

China vs Japanese menance doesn't work if you want to include balkanisation. China has to balkanise if anywhere else does. If china collapses, there is no menace.

Lest we forget, China has already Balkanised...

Neither here nor there, just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Oh yeah, but we're taking about rebooting, so I'm assuming things 'unhappen'

Well... That's true, forgot about the Undoing bit...

Keep the Faith

Balkanization does not mean collapse. A region could be economically and culturally dynamic/predatory without being politically united. Think of the Asian Tigers during the 70s and 80s, except with China the economic/cultural effect could potentially be a magnitude greater. Japan happens to be a strong unitary state, but a feuding Chinese confederation could potentially be a much greater menace in economic and other non-military terms.

Interesting Idea...

Keep the Faith

Cyberpunk 2013 (1988), Rifts (1990), SLA Industries (1992), Cyberspace (1989), Traveller (1977)... There were more in the early 90s but thats what I played.



I really hate this statement, because the 4e matrix rules are 1e matrix with more skills (boo!) and less nodes/complications (hurray!)... If you can play the 4e matrix you would have no trouble playing 1e matrix. You may need to have everyone get a pizza but the mechanics are very similar. If you had gone to a 1e GM and said, I want a single node matrix rule set with a fixed TN you would have ended up with 4e...

[edit] In my 1e/2e pre VR 2.0 days the GM would just have the decker run against the CPU. If you beat the CPU you beat the system, no pizza break needed. I will also argue that since VR 2.0 the pizza break decker was unneeded. Its no more a mini game than the face having a conversation with a security guard and just takes normal PC rotation skills.

Sorry, did you think yourself entitled to a response? I respond to who I choose to, and a big Wall-O-Text is a big turnoff.



No, I don't think you paid attention to what I wrote closely. A lot of people call Shadowrun a mix of Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but its origin (the writing has gone many places over the years) was nothing so generic.

It is a mix of Cyberpunk and High Fantasy. Specifically a mixture of Tolkien-esque high fantasy and traditional folk tales ala Francis James Childe and traditional Native American legends & folk tales. The High Fantasy was thrown under the bus with 2nd edition to fit the new paradigm of creating the Earthdawn setting and somehow selling it as a prequel game to Shadowrun.



Actually I'm disappointed that the cradle of civilization with thousands of years of interesting history was rendered down to "Its all one big Pan Arab-Muslim empire" ... kind of like today. There are so many things that could have been done with it and they simply went with the most boring and non-controversial one.



LOL, where were you in the late 80s and early 90s? This was the height of Cyberpunk! Most games and many movies dealt with "Evil Corporations taking over" tm It is hard to think of many futuristic works that didn't have the "Evil Corporations take over" motif.




You should talk to the original authors sometime or listen to them in their own words. We can expect to see Weismann's (one of the original authors) take on it in the next few years I expect. The fact that he hired Mike Mulvihill to work on the project should say something about it though.



Maybe you should have tried it. I never found it to be a problem and there were a lot of ways to avoid the "pizza run" Decker situation.

Anyways don't expect too many replies simply because it bores me. I've participated in a lot of different edition discussions over the years and I don't expect much to change. CGL is simply way too wedded to the reboot Fanpro came up with and the current level of sales is enough for them.

In a lot of ways you are right... howeverm teh instance that i played in SR1 with a player Decker (Never again after that mind you) who was optimized to be the baddest thing in the matrix, the interplay between the GM and the Decker took almost 5 hours, the rest of us just listened and ate... And yes, it was indeed Pizza...

Keep the Faith

ummm non-controversial is what everyone tries to do with the Muslim world (please leave out you anti-American rhetoric...its old and not pertainant to the subject). Do you know what happens when you offend the Muslim population? a small percentage become enraged and they do things......bad things. Cartoon of The Prophet published in newspaper= riot and newspaper offices burned after being stormed. Making a film of the inequitencies of women in some Muslim communities= the film maker, a decendant of Van Gogh being murdered. Boring is safe when you consider the real risks of cheesing off that very small (again a reminder its very small) percentage of overzealous believers (who in all likelihood are only looking for a reason)

Really, it is that small percentage that give Muslims a bad name... In fact, ALL of the Muslims that I know have bad things to say about that small percentage, because even they know that they are viewed through their lens...

Keep the Faith

Exactly my point, it is that small percentage that gives them a bad rap. Most people regardless of race, religion or socio-economic class conduct their lives in a 'moderate' fashion.

Ah to reboot shadowrun.

Well I would probably get rid of the whole native american angle. It doesn't add anything to the story and really just seems silly. It was a major turnoff when I first saw it.

I would cause a pandemic virus that kills about 75% of the people off. As despair reigns then massive release of psychic energy caused by the deaths opens the metaphysical world. This triggers the goblinization, infected, etc. In this post apocalyptic world the nations sort of balkanize just due to the massive loss of people. Cities become more like city states with a relative no man's land between them inhabited by thugs, ruffians and awakened creatures. Strong countries still exist, but their power is much diminished and corporations begin to dominate as the threat of moving your industrial facilities could spell doom for a city.

Massive armies and navies disappear because the infrastructure to support them is gone. Instead regiments and battalions are the norm rather than divisions. Decdicated combat ships are more along the lines of coast guard cutters rather than the super carriers of years past. Merchant ships now the largest ships carry guns and marines to protect themselves from pirates.

Agriculture is in shambles. The massive farms that once existed now require large numbers of people to protect them from juggernauts, raiders and wild animals.

The infrastructure for the matrix and vehicles still exists, but is beginning to crumble.

Ah kind of like Thor Meets Captain America?

I would like to see shadowrun become more of a framework, and have more community based source material. Forget the metaplot stuff and concentrate on sourcebooks that let you expand the genre like, post-apocalyptic, steampunk, waterworld, alien races/stargate scenario, animal chimeras (not furries). Shadowrun has such a great base to build on.


Could have sourcebooks for whatever course of history your reboot setting you wish. Reboot at will.

There are so many generic RPGs out there you can do this with, I don't think SR would benefit with such a treatment. It really is solid in its niche. I think this would hurt the game IMO. This coming from a generic system freak.

It's really hard to get mad at the devs for keeping the game Eurocentric. It's still just entertainment for profit, and you've got to play to your audience.

If you want to do some poli-sci speculation and create some unofficial source materials though, you're in the right place. I'd love to bring Dubai into the 6th world.

As a poli-sci major (international relations and comparitive politics tract) with minors in Economics, History and World Culture Studies I'd love to work on some stuff.

So, now i'm back after a few days away...
How's the reboot going for everyone ??

Anything constructive ??

Do you really have to ask, this is Dumpshock!

wasn't my posting about the corp war enough?

LOL, define Eurocentric?

The game was originally centered around Seattle and heavily involved resurgent Native American culture. It did well for the then even though I agree they've made the game more Euro-Centric (and I'm not saying it is all bad either).

I like the challenge though. I'd love to bring Ethiopia, Sudan, Egypt, and Lebanon into the 6th world. I've got some material I could use too as one of my player groups once wanted an Egyptian involved adventure. Beware the Taxi Drivers!

Shadowrun's strength has always been the meta-story. (The game system, whichever version, meh.) Those original writers took pieces and parts from disparate universes and synthesized them into something unique. Gestalt.

Thus I'm genuinely surprised at the lack of appreciation being expressed for the NAN, because to me the Great Ghost Dance and Awakening giving power to the disenfranchised tribes is a brilliant example of the authors taking Cyberpunk sensibilities and using them to ground magic in a modern setting.

I agree that Shadowrun really isn't in need of a "reboot". Yes, their are many things that could be downplayed or emphasized to bring it more in line with how modern politics/technology/etc. are aligning…but why? Who cares if the real Japan is losing influence if the Japanese influences in SR are just plain cool? Who cares if augmented reality if more likely than the take-over-your-brain VR matrix…the VR Matrix is a limitless fictional universe to play in?

Shadowrun has *never* (thank God) been High Fantasy sandwiched with Cyberpunk. Shadowrun is Shadowrun. Long live Shadowrun.

Hail Shadowrun...

OT



I sadly have to agree. I am Italian and finding something about Italy in this kind of games is always difficult (I'm coming from the oWoD, and pretty new to SR). Even Shadows of Europe doesn't say all that much about Italy. If anyone could point out the sourcebooks of informations regarding Italy and Europe I'd really appreciate that.

BTW, I have been writing a few ideas for the Italy of 2072, taking into account Shadows of Europe only partly.
For example I think that a New Pontifical State is mandatory, but I also liked the idea of resurgent druidism in England, and wanted to implement it in northern Italy, which will be caught between Rome and the ultraconservative German Catholic Church.
If anyone cares to know more and wants to help, I can open a thread.

Bye
Marco

Find who was working on it for the Euro SB.

Italy IIRC was one of the sections for which we got a good amount of player material. Some countries people totally didn't come through and do their part, but for others there was a huge amount of material produced for the Euro SB which had to be trimmed down for Shadows of Europe.

There is a little mention of the Vatican in books here and there and all over of course. Corporate Downloads, Threats 2, Aztlan, Tir na nOg, Paranormal Animals of Europe, etc all have little bits tying to Italy.

I too would be interested in a Vatican that had a lot more power as well as a lot more opportunities for Shadow Business. There is no way a major religious organization like the Vatican and the Catholic church couldn't be of interest to Shadowrunners.

Heh, I probably should have said Anglo-centric.

But the Vatican angle is just like the Islamic angle. You start involving the Pope in intrigues or start talking about Mecca at all, and you invite problems.

At least, with all the mafia talk in core SR, it's not going to take much imagination to flesh out Sicily.

I think the backstory of Shadowrun will continue to work... until it doesn't. Like for instance, it was something of an anachronism in previous editions that the future of the internet was supposed to be a Virtual Reality internet. As time went on, it became increasingly obvious that the internet would probably be wireless first. But, of course we didn't know that in the 80's.

I think that it is inevitable that, as time goes on past the point where SR's timeline and ours diverged, that the disconnect between our world and SR is going to be so great that it will have to face facts and, eventually, reboot. I don't think that time is now, or necessarily soon... but I think it will inevitably happen.

I think it is also worth mentioning that SR got a mini-reboot in the xbox/PC game. Teleportation, anyone?

I don't think that that will happen at all... Shadowrun is its own unique entity, it will go through changes, sure, but I don't see a reboot happening... Just my opinion, though...

Keep the Faith

Nimblegrund you might have a point if the devs were ever stupid enough to declare that the video game was actually canon or even possible to recreate in the true Shadowrun.

Well since you specified in print. I'd say Hero, and hackmaster spank it soundly.

Most in print games seem to be trending towards streamlining there rules to the point that they remove all interesting elements from the game. They are the Budweiser's of RPGs, lets remove all objectionable flavors so we wont drive away anyone in the market.

I want games to be full of flavor and the trick is finding the one that suits your taste.

I have to say that I do like HERO Games (Champions anyone?)

But my favorite is Feng Shui... Lots of Flavor and a great system to boot... And Very Customizeable indeed...

What an incredibly subjective thing to say.

Best in what way - faster, easier, more intuitive, more flexible ??
How better than World of Darkness, since they are almost identical ??
Really better than any of the 2d10, 3d6 or d% systems out there ??

Straight off, SR v4 isn't as flexible as HERO or GURPS or FUZION...
...or d20, if it comes to that.

<IMHO>SR has always been a better game than others. The game encourages roleplaying over gunfighting (via a very deadly combat system). You can still take out a great dragon with a light pistol (matmatically at least, probability is etremely low though!!! ). For modern combat it does a decent job of simulating damage, without being overly complex. The magic system is unique, and adds a lot of flavor to the game. The other aspects rigging/hacking are decent though not the best parts of the game. That being said information warfare/electronic warfare is a very complex thing to model.

D20-great for heroic fantasy, however the combat system breaks down at higher levels as there are too many abilities to keep track of.
Gurps-not much experience on my end (not since HS 15+ years ago), but I'll agree it is a flexible system.
Hero-never played hero, did do Rifts-thought it was too complex (combat and PC creation wise though).
Twilight 2000-Complexity up the wazoo, the only thing more complex is possibly Pheonix command (which I have not played).
Savage tides-Combat while easy was to bland (I have similar feelings towards the current edition of the game that causes cancer)
Star Wars (west-end version not the D20 version)-The closest to SR in terms of combat, however PC's start at a very low skillset, which makes it hard to be heroic (a theme of the game).

</IMHO>

I Like Twilight 2000 As well... but it is a very different game than Shadowrun...

Keep the Faith

SR4 was for all intents and purposes. Yes the timeline was kept, but the rest was dramatically "rebooted".

The last video game was a complete reboot. The NES video game was practically as well. Based on who is being hired for the new Shadowrun game I'll be surprised if it (hopeful that it isn't?) based on SR4.

This is where I would disagree... it was not a reboot, it moved forward and included a great deal of technology upgrades that we have already in our current society... not a reboot, just an upgrade...

Keep the Faith

A friend of mine actually looked into how to make a teleport spell for Shadowrun. If you wanted it to be an actual teleport as in you disappear and reappear, it could be done as a mix of an invisibility spell and a levitate/fling type spell that 'throws' you in a direction. You wouldn't be able to go through walls, but it would look as if you did teleport.

if you could physically shift to the astral (lightbringers from earthdawn) to a mundane you could appear to be 'teleporting' for short distances of teleport.

to anyone astrally active it'd be obvious what you were up to though.