Arsenal clears that up. While the weapon has both modifications only one can be used for any shot.

Another great example of the designers not having a good understanding of how this stuff really works.

(A good silencer will actually have exactly the same effect as a Gas Vent system)

Can you elaborate a bit on this one ?

If I'm not mistaken gas vents work by redirecting a part of the high-velocity / high pressure gases at the mouth of the gun upward to reduce the muzzle jump caused by recoil - and possibly some of it backward to reduce recoil like the muzzle brake of an artillery piece.

Granted, the silencer's weight at the front of the gun is likely to help the same way an underbarel weight does, but since a silencer works by trapping/slowing/cooling those same gases, I fail to see how it could at the same time silence and work as a gas vent.

Have a look here.

I linked a number of interesting sources and articles. In particular the OPS cans that use destructive interference to cancel the noise absolutely rock.

I have read the same thing about suppressors making firearms more controllable.

A significant part of the recoil impulse is from that moment where the high pressure gas rushes past the bullet just as it exits the barrel. In a way, it forms a tiny rocket motor for a fraction of a second. A suppressor stretched this rush of gas over a longer period, which makes it less intense. So, it has the same effect as a gas vent, just through a different mechanism.

Regarding switching between gas vents and accessory suppressors, generally the suppressor just covers up the vent. Perfect example is the modern M16 rifle. The flash hider also functions as a gas vent. Many M16 suppressors clamp right on to the flash hider.

Lots of people are running out the back. The one that has a gun in his hand is the one that gets shot by the cops. The people that the patrol car's "cyberware scanner" (which do a lot more than scan for cyberware) spot packing have a greatly increased chance of getting shot or stopped.

It's the standard Mafia hit trick, you shoot the guy with a gun that isn't yours or traceable to someone you know, then you drop it on the scene and immediately walk out before anyone figures out what happened. If you are stopped you don't have a gun, there is no way it can be traced to you and ballistics will agree that yes, this is the gun that shot the bullet that killed Vito.


You can create symbolic links to objects. See the Sympathetic Linking metamagic description on p28, particularly the word "thing".

The question is, once a bullet has been fired and fragmented to hell, is it still a bullet? Or has the nature of the thing changed so much that it is now just a lump of metal, like ashes to a tree. After all, metal fragments stuck into a wall are not an integral part of a gun. Same with shell casings. If you're sloppy enough to be just dropping clips everywhere, that's an easy enough sell for material links.

Do you REALLY want a spinning monofilament chainsaw that gets knocked free of your hand to be freely swinging by a short cord attached to your wrist?

lol lol lol lol lol

My kids are looking at me funny now...

Incidentally, I didn't think lanyard stacked with Gecko Grip anyway.

According to Arsenal, they don't.

They don't stack, but that doesn't mean you can't have both. Gecko grips only work when they are turned on. A lanyard always works.

However, a lanyard really only keeps you from losing your weapon if you drop it. Someone can still take your gun and use it, as long as they use it within a few feet of you.

The point was not to get disarmed in the first place.





This is a house rule, and should be explained to your GM as such. That would not fly as far as I could throw a Sakura Fubuki IRL in any of my games, as it has no real basis in the rules at all.

That said, don't forget that Pepper Punch Gas Grenades are fairly cheap, easy to come by, effective, and street legal. So is a Super Squirt filled with Pepper Punch, which is a redeeming quality of having to take an Exotic Weapon for it.

My GM thought it was clever and as my character is an armorer he said that I could have it, as long as i dont abuse it too much. I thought it was an ingenious way to use the weapon.

What it sounds like you're wanting to do with it is take a standard Burst Fire pistol that has a 30 round clip and attach an underbarrel pistol with a 10 round clip to it, and that is covered within the rules. What you're doing is something akin to taking an assault rifle, putting 3/4th the ammo as Ex-Ex and the remaining quarter as gel ammo and wanting to be able to choose which you shoot with.

It's not akin to that at all. It's more like an assault rifle with 3 Additional Clip mods on it. The gun has 4 barrels stacked with 10 bullets to each barrel. That means 10x3 round bursts with 10 bullets left unfired. Why would a 4 barrel gun fire 3 round bursts anyway?
Though, you could just take a mod slot and 250 nuyen to drop an ammo skip system into the gun and treat each barrel like it was a revolver cylinder, but that seems pretty silly considering that the gun is entirely electronic from the start so it wouldn't require any physical modification. Really, there is no other gun like it in game. Maybe make it a 250 nuyen firmware upgrade?

Why would a 4 barrel gun fire 3 round bursts anyway?
because its a Metal Storm Weapon !
Each Barrel is able to Fire the Burst (Thats why You can only fire Narrow Burst and thats why its perfectly Ok to load each and every Barrel with different ammo.You only have to make shure that you don'nt mix the Ammo in a burst(which can happen if You Shoot Bullet#1 from Barrel A together with Bullets #1 and 2 from Barrel B or Bullets #9 and 10 from Barrel B with Bullet #1 from Barrel C .)
so the easiest whay (if you dont enlarge the Barrel to 12 Shots per each one )ist to have the same Ammo in 3 Barrels and load the fourth with different Ammo

Really, there is no other gun like it in game.
Well there are a Lot of Unique Weapons
Ares Viper Slivergun
Ares Alpha Combatgun
Maybe even the Ingram Smart X
(And No, I will not mention the SR3 German Weapons.They're Evil and Munchkinny !!)

with 4 different Dances
Medicineman

I am not a big fan of the Metalstorm-style action from a practical standpoint, but I am a big fan from a technical standpoint.

Since the Sakura has a solid state action, you have the potential for a very smart smartgun. Picture a smartgun with a cyberware scanner attached. In a microsecond, it can detect whether the target has a dense surface (armor) or not, and choose between an APDS round from one tube or a EX-EX round in another. It could even be programmed to automatically fire a burst if the target is large enough.

My big criticism of the Sakura is that every "magazine" carries the dead weight and bulk of 4 barrels. It's all fine and good if you know you will only need 20 rounds (like most of the general public, to be honest), but what shadowrunner does that? Your 20-round reload is probably the bulk and weight of 3-4 predator mags.

(I also hate the art for the weapon. Look up the Metal Storm O'Dwyer prototype for a much more compact design.)

Ammo skip system could be a decent approximate rule to use.

As for sidearms though, I have to go with:

Bloodhawk
Modified Ruger Super Warhawk
Base: 250¥
Modifications:
• Internal Smartgun System; 1C, 250¥
• Improved Range Finder, 1C, 1,000¥
• Ammo Skip System; 1C, 250¥
• Firing Selection Change, Small, SS to SA; 1C, 300¥
• Increased Cylinder; 1C, 500¥
• Personalized Grip; 1C, 100¥
Statline
Weapon Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Max Avail Cost
Bloodhawk 6P -2 SA 1 8(cy) 8R 2,650¥

Raptor
Modifed Ares Predator IV
Base: 350¥
Modifications:
• Silencer; 2C, 400¥
• Electronic Firing; 2C, 1,000¥
• Easy Breakdown, Powered; 2C, 550¥
Statline
Weapon Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Max Avail Cost
Raptor 5P -1 SA - 15(c ) 10R 2,300¥

And I like to trick out my Ares as follows

Imperator
Modified Ares Alpha
Base: 1,700¥
Modifications:
• Improved Range Finder; 1C, 1,000¥
• Airburst Link; 0C, 500¥
• Gas-Vent 3 System Accessory; Barrel, 400¥
• Foregrip; 1C, 50¥
• Personalized Grip; 1C, 100¥
• Sling; 0C, 10¥
• Extended Clip; 1C, 500¥
• High Velocity; 2C, 3,400¥
Statline
Weapon Damage AP Mode RC Ammo Max Avail Cost
Imperator 6P -1 SA/BF/FA 8 50 (c ) 12F 7,710¥
Grenade Launcher As Grenade - SS 4 8(c )

@Imperator: Sling and Shock Pad are not cumulative. I'd remove the HV mod. It's not worth it IMHO.

Ah, missed that. Though it seemed like an unreasonable typo anyways. I mean, how do you brace with a sling AND a stock? For that matter, why is a sling exactly equivalent to the hip pad bracing system, which includes a sling, at a price of 190 extra nuyen?

I like the high velocity. The only other thing to do is to make the grenade clip extended, and make the Rifle's clip a 100 round drum. HV is just fun with a 6P weapon because that makes it better than the stock HVAR weapon..

Ask any marine, he will show you.

It isn't for recoil though. It's for shooting you in the face at 400m.

I found a dice pool mod for aimed fire, but nothing for having a particularly steady firing position. This implies thet SR4 thinks shooting standing up is just as accurate as shooting prone with a bipod. This isn't so.

The game needs a DP mod for bracing your weapon on something. A bipod is ideal for this (which is why nearly every RL sniper rifle will have one.), but even resting your rifle on a broken cinderblock will make a big difference. I really think +2 dice would be appropriate. You take a complex action to get settled into a stable position, then you are immobile, but you get a +2 until you have to move.

The point I am getting around to is that a military-style sling can be rigged so that it rigidly straps the weapon to your body, giving you the same bonus as a bipod. Anyone with 2+ points in Longarms or Firearms would know how.

People, please stop and consider a moment WHY the Ares Alpha is best. Because it is made by a weapons manufacturer able to put in all the best features as a standard feature without jacking the price up too severely. Everything you can make it do you can make another weapon do just as well. Ares was just the first company to do it, considering their focus that is realistic, it is also realistic for another company to "file off the numbers" and repackage the same basic gun as their own design. It's what happened, after a fashion, to the Colt 1911 after all.

Fair enough point on both accounts.

I think the reason that this is not the case is because sniping/long range shooting is already effective enough in game.

Crazy effective....

I am not exactly sure what that is supposed to mean. I mean, from a rules standpoint, that is wrong. The Ares Alpha just has recoil compensation for superior design; no other assault rifle can match its capabilities in this respect. It also has a superior clip size. That means that even with modifications, the Alpha is going to have superior round capacity unless it is modified for drum clips, in which case, it is equal. It has an under-barrel mounted grenade launcher standard. It has a built in internal smartgun system.

Unmatched Recoil. Otherwise, it takes 3-6 mod slots to make another assault rifle a match.

... Can you modify the underbarrel grenade launcher of the Alpha to accept a drum clip?

Probably, it's a detachable box magazine (though the picture only shows the rifle mag) notated as: 6( c ), should be no problem, I'd take it off the Alpha's available slots though, I don't count built in underbarrel weapons as having separate slot totals, add-on underbarrel accessories I do count as separate. As to the advisability, well, that's between you and your GM (or you and the player).

Well it's an underbarrel weapon right? You can use the rules for Underbarrel Weapons which would halve the drum capacity to 25. And if you can talk your GM into it, mod the GL for SA/BF fire too... Might as well put the drum to good use.

No.

Drum clips are available only to smg's and assault rifles. Grenade launchers are grenade launchers no matter what they are slapped on. An underbarrel weapon does not open additional options for modification, it rather restricts them due to the general level of compactness and miniaturization required for a weapon of that type.

Besides, that would be 25 rounds that are at an absolute minimum 20mm microgrenades, which means that even a half sized drum would be pretty fraggin huge.

And for that matter, if you are in a situation where you have to fire off more than six grenades, you probably 1: Did something very wrong, and 2: Would have been better off with a missile launcher.

Yeah, I looked, overcanon is right, by RAW drums are SMG and AR only. Though I have to say that this is another of those firearm rules that I totally disagree with. I don't think that drums or extended magazine should cost ANY slots for a weapon that takes external box magazines, pistols, shotguns, SMG, AR or otherwise. I have a 100rnd betamag for my AR-10. The entire 'modification' to use it was to remove the magazine, and insert the betamag, i.e. reload. But then again, I'm a gunsmith, so what would I know about it... I'm definately house ruling that one...

@overcannon
Somehow I think a grenade launcher with a big ass drum mag would be more handy than a four foot long missle launcher, plus you could fire faster and spread the love (destruction) around a little more (though in smaller packets), but hey, that's just me...

Yeah just read it over too. Funny, it doesn't mention Longarms so Shotguns can't get drums which is silly.

Well, it says they're for SMGs and ARs only, but yeah, even some shotguns take external box mags, but even a shotgun with a tubular mag or an internal mag bolt action rifle could be modified to use a drum magazine IRL, though in some cases (the tubular mag shotgun) you would almost be completely redesigning the loading mechanism, which is what the description of the drum modification pretty much says you're doing anyway. A bolt action rifle would be easy, remove the base plate, build a magazine retainer and release system into the internal magazine and use it as a mag well, then find or build a drum that fit, the actual loading mechanism (hehe, the bolt strips off a new round just like a slide, just remove the retainer lip from the internal magazine because the drum would have it's own) wouldn't require any real modification. Of course, now I'm sitting here wondering why in hell anyone would put a drum on a bolt action rifle, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

I realize some of this is to technical for some people who know nothing about guns, but just saying that anything that's not a breech, muzzle loader, or has a cylinder can be modded for a drum would fix that. Plus, like I said, anything that takes external box mags shouldn't need any modification at all, even semi-auto pistols. Hell, there are combat shotguns on the market now that take box mags and have aftermarket drums available.

I think his point was, that alltought the weapons don't have the similar models lists in the book like vehicles have, doesn't mean that similar weapons don't excist from other manufacturers.

I just wish that Ares Arms would make their own version of AA-16 (only Gas-vent 2 when Gas-vent 3 exist..)
their version would be certainly MUCH better..maybe version would include:
1)Internal Smartgun System
2)Internal Gas-vent 3
3)Shock pad
i would not mind if they drop ammo capasity to 20-24 rounds and made it clip fed..
..and it would be nice that price stays under 10K yen..

Pretty much, I admit to missing the thing about recoil but it is a valid point. All in all, yes, the Ares Alpha is a superior design, but if recoil is a major concern for you consistently something is wrong. Shadowrunners are sneaky, the bang-bang is for when the excrement has hit the fan, but if y ou need it, it is there and you can bet Ares' competitors are working on something to rival the Alpha. Even if it is a knockoff with a few new tricks.

What about the existing grenade launcher that's drum fed? Besides, I was not looking for compactness or the level of attraction this gun would bring. This is also theoretical, by the way.


Due to the wording of the first paragraph and the first sentence of the second paragraph, this leads me to believe that you take a weapon and (as an illustration) glue/weld it onto the other weapon. So that underbarrel grenade launcher the Alpha has has 6 mod slots itself, separate of the assault rifle.

If you were to say, take some other rile, and attach said drum fed GL to it as an underbarrel weapon, that is allowed, but the existence of a drum fed gl does not make that an acceptable RAW modification.

The same goes for shotguns.



Here is where things get really tricky and sort of f***ed up as RAW contains enough gaps, errors and omissions to cause a whole lot of problems that aren't even touched upon in the errata.

Underbarrel Bolas, Flamethrower and grapple guns take up the under accessory slot.

The underbarrel modification does not mention the under accessory slot, so it is possible to have up to three underbarrel weapons (Ex. An Ares Alpha with a built in GL, Underbarrel Flamethrower accessory and an underbarrel shotgun modification) by RAW.

Now, weapons have 6 modification slot, and the Ares Alpha is one weapon, so I don't see the GL as having any independent slots.

The real problem comes with where the modification slots for a modified underbarrel weapon. There are tthree reals solutions; neither are endorsed or denied by RAW.

1. Both the base weapon and the underbarrel weapon spend 3 modification slots on the process. This makes the most sense to me.

2. The underbarrel weapon is the one being modified, and as such expends 3 mod slots. The base weapon still has its full six unused. I think this is a little broken

3. The base weapon is the one being modified, and as such spend 3 mod slots. The underbarrel weapon still has its full six unused. This is completely jacked up.

Seems fine. I'd ask whether you are going to provide dedicated fire support, because then a LMG of some sort might be worth looking into, but just get a bipod for your modified Ares Alpha and you're fine.



I'd say the knife, heh, anyone see you coming with all that kit and they will probably decide to shoot you before you get within throwing or striking range

Also, I'd advice against the bola launcher on account of range and freeing up the space for a more versatile mod. Buy yourself a parashield dart weapon with narcojet darts, or slap some CS gas in the grenade launcher. If you feel the need to stun people with your firearms you can always fill it with gel rounds and whack people silly, then drag them off when they pass out.



Depends on your role. Mortars, LMG and explosives are all useful. I think perhaps an SMG with quick draw holsters or mods would be a nice touch. You can even buy an SMG made from stealth materials and load it up with Hi-C plastic rounds, then wade through scanners and mow people down!

AA-16?

Is that related to the AA-12?

Yup. But don't think too much about the numbers. I hope the 16 does not represent 16 gauge.

You know that 16 isn't as scary as 12, right? Besides, it's best to be worried about 10 gauge.

OK. So the real question is: can I fit a drum on a Missile launcher?

I do not see the AA-16 as 16-Guage... it is just a designation... Like the Colt AR-15, MP5, the M4, or the Colt 1911... just a designation...

Keep the Faith

Probably not...

Keep the Faith

It already has one. That's how you select the ammo.

I don't think so, but you could take an assault cannon with an underbarrel missile launcher.

I don't think so. I doubt that a missile launcher, especially one with a magazine, is smaller than an assault cannon. This is is the condition to qualify as underbarrel weapon.

OK. Then a missile launcher with an underbarrel assault cannon it is. Missile launchers do not accept accessories, but there is nothing against mods

Backblast is a bitch... Do so and expect to die a horrible, messy death...

Keep the Faith

Not necessarily.