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SincereAgape
Okay. So on Sunday, was able to PC during a live session of Shadowrun in North New Jersey. Didn't have chance to roll a character, so I played a character who I had killed in a different game. This character was a elven face with Wired Reflexes level 3, and skilled with the sniper rifle and a mono whip. The character was made entirely from the BBB.

We start playing the game. The run consisted of hijacking a truck shipment in the middle of "Spike" territory. So right away, for no reason the other PC's started housing the elven character. For some reason they did not like him. It's funny, because I didn't play him as an elite snob as I usually do. The group was planning on talking to the Spikes before the shipment arrived, to try and negotiate a deal with them so they wouldn't attack us while we hijack the truck. Yes, it's a bad idea for a high life styled elf to try and deal with a bunch of Troll gangers, but dammit the players started making fun of the elf for even the thought nyahnyah.gif.

Now to the point. Elves seems like the most polarizing race in Shadowrun. You either love them a lot, or hate them a lot. In the past Elves have been associated with Gary Stu or Mary Sue, often being an 'idealized race' with really no point or distinguishing character flaws. They are 'perfect' or 'idealistic' in some way, which often makes the stereotypical elf one-dimensional. "Perfect" characters are not interesting in my opinion.

As a former HOMER of Elves, I am beginning to come with the gripes that elves aren't as "Cool" as I thought they were. Honestly, the past few PC sessions I have been playing, I have made all elves. They have not been fun characters to play. In future, I am planning on trying a dwarf and a ork with human elements to them, and see how that goes.

I want to get a general consensus. Want to form a survey or a research study on this topic.

Elves. Do you love them, hate them, or apathetic? And if so, why? What are your feelings and opinions on Shadowrun elves?
Weaver95
Neither really.

Alhtough the vampire player in my current campaign is starting to see the downsides to playing a bloodsucking hellbeast.
Ravor
Well personally I figure that alot of the "bad rap" that elves get are because of the way people have routinely played them, even you mentioned that you ussually play the character as an elitist snob anf I've found that is how many people play elves.

However with that said, in most general backgrounds elves are the "most magical" and hence "most advanced" but yet their civilazation is always in decline when based off the actual rules they should still be amongst the ruling class.
tete
What about the troll always being stupid wink.gif
SincereAgape
QUOTE (tete @ Oct 27 2009, 06:19 PM) *
What about the troll always being stupid wink.gif


The troll bouncer, bodyguard, or tough guy is getting cliche too.

Although :thumbs up to Kaz Yakumara from Ghost Cartels:
The Jake
I don't like their stat bonuses in SR4. Sure they're costly but if you're going to play another race, mechanically they are the most superior - which I dislike. Sure Orks get free points but this only matters if you're playing a physical character. Dwarves need much more love IMHO.

- J.
Chrysalis
I don't normally play the metahumans, but when I do it is elves. I think the inherent betterness should be turned into a kind of speciesism. Still, most elves in the older books really peed honey and had dandelions coming out of their asses. They also glittered in the sunlight.

But then again Shadowrun is a gamist universe, so elves are a social element, while trolls and orks are bruisers.
SincereAgape
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Oct 27 2009, 07:32 PM) *
I don't normally play the metahumans, but when I do it is elves. I think the inherent betterness should be turned into a kind of speciesism. Still, most elves in the older books really peed honey and had dandelions coming out of their asses. They also glittered in the sunlight.

But then again Shadowrun is a gamist universe, so elves are a social element, while trolls and orks are bruisers.


Forgot to point out that Elven Females have always been portrayed a lot differently then a Male Elf. Elf Females are the exotic "Hot" Femme Fatale. They are the object of most men's lustful desires in Shadowrun stories. From a stereotypical standpoint, elven females suffer from the Women in the Refrigerator syndrome. Meaning they are used as plot devices to make the lead male antagonist 'look' better or eventually become their main squeeze. Perhaps this fulfills the average male gamer's fantasy.

Popular Shadowrun Fiction examples.

1. Sam Verner and Hart.
2. Ryan Mercury and Nadja Daviar.
3. Jack Skater and Archangel.
Not of this World
I love them, but the way they've been covered has been ... spotty.

In earlier editions their stats sucked. Now the stats are getting too good.

The idea that Immortal Elves have been hiding around quietly manipulating things is awesome the first few times for new players. The idea that Immortal Elves are an Illuminati conspiracy responsible for everything really, really sucks.

A lot of fun with any of the metahuman races though comes from clashing stereotypes. Hence the Elven Decker in SR1-2

Try these as well:
Dwarven Supremacist
Mrs. Manners (Goblinized)
Elven Street Bum (I'm too pretty to work)
Dwarven pickpocket (just the right height)
Ork Child Prodigy (but you won't live long enough for the SINners to care)
Troll Diplomat (Talk Quietly and carry a LARGE stick)
crash2029
Personally, since within SR elves are just a subspecies of humanity (Homo Sapiens Nobilis), I see elves as psychologically human. Imagine a human. Imagine that human with the inherent physical qualities of the nobilis metatype. Factor in societal issues and pressures.

Long story short: Elves are human. Just like trolls, orks, dwarfs, changelings, vampires and lawyers. The only way elves are psychcologically different from humans is the same way whites, blacks, asians, latins, christians, atheists, buddhusts, teenagers, skaters and nerds are from each other. The only lines that divide us are the ones we draw.

Just my 0.02 nuyen.gif
Tachi
Well, you can call me Minimist Maximus if you like, but I usually choose metatype based on what gives me the best deal on the character concept I'm using. If I'm building a spirit heavy mage, I definitely go for the elf. On the other hand, I once played a troll face with a PhD in communications... so, uh, yeah.

I don't hate elves, don't particularly like them either. As others mentioned above, I dislike tendencies to overwork the clichés, the 'haughty' elf is actually one of my bigger pet peeves, right behind the 'big dumb troll'. Normally I like or dislike characters as individuals, though I sometimes actually come to dislike players due to their lack of imagination when it comes to character attitudes and behavior.

I have, occasionally, found myself being automatically hostile to elven characters before they give me a reason, though. I don't mean to, just making subconscious assumptions based on past observations most likely. Since I noticed it the first time, I've tried to avoid it. Doesn't always work though. As was also mentioned above, I think it's most likely a consequence of how others have always played elves. When ninety percent of the elves you encounter are arrogant assholes itching to prove how much better they are than the 'inferior races', there's bound to be a negative backlash.

QUOTE (Crash2029)
Long story short: Elves are human. Just like trolls, orks, dwarfs, changelings, vampires and lawyers.


I don't care what you say, lawyers are NOT human, their humanity was surgically removed during law school, especially trial attorneys.
Orcus Blackweather
This seems a good venue. I was at Gencon a couple of years ago, and I saw a T-Shirt I really wanted. The shirt showed an Elf that was cowering and looked thoroughly miserable. The caption said "Have you spat on an elf today?"

Does anyone know where to find that t-shirt, or the art that went on it?
Chrysalis
Ask him: http://greymalkindesigns.com/phpBB3/viewto...f=26&p=1701
Orcus Blackweather
No link to purchase a shirt, I will investigate that site some more. Thanks for the tip.
Kerenshara
Every race has certain plusses and minuses.

Saw a picture once, a spoof on SuccessoriesTM, where it shows somebody dodging bullets while returning fire and doing base jumping. The caption was "With enough Edge, who needs skill?" That extra free point is pretty wiz, chummers, if you're a human. Humans are still dominant worldwide, so predjudice is still in their favor after all this time.

Trolls, due as much to their lower caps (thank heavens they aren't LOST points any more) in the mental areas as anything else, tend to drift to seriously physical endeavors where they can trully excell. Stereotypes exist for a reason: they are usually based to one extent or another on fact and common perception.

Orcs, while physically tough, are still fairly close to baseline homo sapiens sapiens. You can do a lot with them, though the predjudice against them is extremely strong. That's a significant drawback.

Dwarves... well, they don't lose much (yes, I know the elves don't lose ANYTHING, but what they gain isn't quite as ... central), and they get something unique, special, and REALLY important for several reasons: a point of WILlpower. That helps against most spells, it's critical if you worry about Drain or Fading, it can mean an extra point of Stun on your damage track, and it helps when defending in social situations. Discount the "halfers" at your peril. Oh, and extra body and strength, plus that resistance of theirs.

Finally, Elves. Yadda yadda super efete whatever. They get Charisma which is nice for a "social" character, and very nice if you're in a "Charisma" tradition, magically. And a whole point of AGIlity, one of the EASIEST stats to increase with 'ware. And lowlight vision, which does nothing when you rip out your orbs and stuff in chrome. They live a long time. That's why the gods created Leonization for the "lesser" races. Oh, and all three "lesser" metahuman races tend to view them as "dandelion eaters". And that smug superiority of theirs rubs a LOT of people the wrong way, meaning their inherent "prettyness" tends to hit a solid barrier of "I don't give a drek WHAT you look like, stretch".

Each race has a place, and I don't think any is worse than the others. But that's just MY opinion.
Ayeohx
Elves are known to be manipulative. They tend to be pretty and people idolize them because of this. That's why you had a bunch of elf posers running amuck. And then people learned that there may be immortal elves running around, well, that's just going to up the mistrust a bit. Conspiracy nuts would go crazy. And rightfully so.
the_real_elwood
I don't hate elves per se. I hate people that love elves. And then what usually happens is, those people make me hate elves, at least in that particular circumstances.

But I think that elves in Shadowrun are particularly well done. Sure, they like to think they're superior, but Tir Tairngire sure ain't no paradise. Tir na Nog isn't either. And really, neither of the "elven homelands" are major players in world affairs. So there's really not a whole lot there for me to get all worked up about.
Ayeohx
Ya know, I'm going to step on a few toes here, but I'm going to spew it.

Cliches tend to come around for a reason. Society, and in these cases, genetics, play a role in shaping an individual. It takes an exceptional being and the right circumstances to throw off the shackles of the norm and forge themselves into something much different than what everything says they should be.

If someone wants to play "the stupid troll" or "angry ork" in your game work with them to develop the character's personality and background. Go through the 20 questions and give them karma rewards for filling it out. It's partially the gamemaster's fault for not having interesting PCs in his campaign. If you've got character sheets with little more than "surely dwarf" and "uppity elf" at your table maybe you need to invest a bit more time in working with your gamers and the development of their characters.
BlueMax
Social and Plotline:Apathetic
Mechanically: Hate them. The way shadowrun 4A is played near me, Elves are the most advantageous race.

BlueMax
Khyron
It depends on the character personality to me. If you're playing a character in the shadows, that's a whole culture unto itself and the the pretty fop elf face is no different then the pretty fop ork face because it's the job, not the race the defines them.

I don't believe the metas have been around long enough for any serious racial organization, and I don't believe the Tirs should even exist, not yet anyways, and after all the VITAS crap, there shouldn't of been a united elf population large enough to sustain it anyways without dedicated baby factories.

But I am currently playing an Elf gunner who firmly believes the Tirs are full of Larpers who lost touch with reality.
Brazilian_Shinobi
I had made a looooooooooooong post talking about loving/hating elves but a 1 second loss of power made me lose everything... mad.gif
Anyways, from a OOC perspective, I would blame Tolkien and D&D for any prejudice or lack of against elves, specially the movies (which, in my not so humble opinion were awful, both LotR and the D&D movies).

I like to play as Elves, whenever I had the chance of actually be a player instead of the GM in a game where Elves exist I played as an Elf (if anyone cares, the only happened 3 times, every other time I was the GM).

Currently, in our 3-months-with-no-game-Shadowrun-campaign I've been playing as an Elf, a japanese one by the way, with the Human looking quality (which were a series of surgeries during his teens). The campaign is in Denver, and so far, I hated every Elf I've met with the exception of one. I always tell them: hey, chummer, you think that Trolls and Orks are marginalized? Go to Japan and walk outside for a while, those pointy ears and your beautiful bone structure will look even better after being beaten the crap out of you...
Glyph
Mechanics-wise, elves are pricey, but you are paying for the specific set of advantages they have. So while some people find them overpriced, I find them to be overall balanced.

Fluff-wise, I unabashedly love how Shadowrun has depicted elves, both playing up the stereotypes and turning them on their ear, and also showing everyday, average elves who have to deal with all of the baggage that comes from being an elf.

The only things I didn't like were how immortal elves were handled (a bunch of overpowered Gary Stu's who took the places of too many important historical figures), and how the Tirs were handled (like the JIS, they should have had the totalitarianism turned down a few notches - they could have been great, atmospheric places to run, instead of a headache to run).
LurkerOutThere
As a matter of choice race I don't mind elves at all, I don't find them mechanically problematic at all. But then again I always play either trolls who tear things apart or humans who edge things into a fine mist.

From a cultural standpoint: I don't mind normal elves. I HATE the idea of secret elven overlords who were awake during the down cycle and running things. I HATE "purebreed" nations equally as much whether it's Nazi elves, Nazi Native American's or anyone else.

KCKitsune
QUOTE (crash2029 @ Oct 27 2009, 08:17 PM) *
Long story short: Elves are human. Just like trolls, orks, dwarfs, changelings, vampires and lawyers.


Crash, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Lawyers are not human. They are a form of diseased scum that bubbles out from the darkest pits of Hell to inflict pain and suffering on the rest of humanity. silly.gif
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Khyron @ Oct 27 2009, 06:53 PM) *
But I am currently playing an Elf gunner who firmly believes the Tirs are full of Larpers who lost touch with reality.


Awesome.

I think it was one of the earlier editions of Shadowrun that really sold me on Elves being alright as PCs - they had a sample character, a contact or archtype, which was an elven decker just trying to make ends meet. Her short bio was to the effect of: Some people say elves are magic and beauty and power, but you must have never gotten your invite to that party. You don't have magic, you don't know any CEOs or senators, and you can't schmooze your way out of a traffic ticket. You're damn good with a cyberdeck, though, and doing the best you can to make a living with it.

I despise 'the pretty people' on general principles, but that write up made me realize that in Shadowrun, Elves are just as screwed as the rest of us. They might not be as marginalized as orcs and trolls, but nobody goes around muttering 'never trust a troll' like it's deep wisdom, either. I'll give elves the same shot I give anybody else, which ain't all that much of a favor, but it'll have to do.
Megu
My players started to hate them, I think, after the elf PC in our group stabbed everyone in the back in a way that totally fit the stereotype of the haughty, scheming Tir elf. Then everyone rolled Irish anti-elven militant, an anti-meta Islamic jihadist and a Welsh troll hacker who hates elves because his elven father abandoned him. Not to mention the surviving PC who's still chasing down the elf somewhere in Laos.

I personally think elves are an interesting vehicle to think about the lifespan and the aging process, if nothing else. And I mean, come on, at some point I think everyone wants to play a glamorous bishounen, even in a cyberpunk game. That said, I think a lot of the stuff with the Tirs has been pretty interesting and well thought out.
Cthulhudreams
Elves are bad because they are so suboptimal wink.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (The Jake @ Oct 27 2009, 06:31 PM) *
Sure Orks get free points but this only matters if you're playing a physical character.

- J.



I've never agreed with this notion, to be honest. It's not just free points, it's free points that aren't counted under the 200 bp attribute cap! Being an ork means you can use Body as a virtual dump stat without being doomed to fail stabilization tests; it's the dump stat that frankly nobody really wants to dump. If you want a character with decent across the board stats and can live with losing a die or two on Logic/Charisma tests then "weak" ork with a minimum invested in Strength/Body is your man. Heck, a lot of the time you won't even really miss the Logic/Charisma dice because the sheer cost effectiveness of orks makes it easy to shore it up those tests in other ways.
Fuchs
Given leonization being cheaper in 4E than in earlier editions the long lives are not anything special anymore.
Saint Sithney
In a climate where racial discrimination and class warfare are at the forefront of a lot of plot and action, it's easy to hate elves. They're the beneficiaries of prejudice, the pretty privileged ones, who exist on a different level from the common man. It makes it really easy to hate them, as virtual symbols of aristocracy, with their private little clubs in Oregon and Ireland, fortunate sons and daughters all.

But how is that prejudice different than any other? That backlash against the elite, the not-so-subtle homophobia of the term "effete," the dismissal of environmental concerns, as if their environment is not your environment, is all just more minority bashing. It's just the suits in charge using people against each other in order to keep them off their own backs. It's the same trap it ever was, and it's always a shame when another foot steps into it. Truth is, elf or not, you should never trust anyone in the shadows. Hell, I don't even trust myself.
Orcus Blackweather
As they are written, the fluff surrounding them, elves suck. I have played several of them myself, and I treat them as just another guy. None of them speak sperethiel, and and they all pretty much think it would suck to be a peasant in the Tir. All of the meta-human races are basically the same. They had rough childhoods from all of the bigot humans, they all know that there is a not so glass ceiling over their heads, and they all know that life sucks when you are down. Seems like a tailor made background for a shadowrunner.
Stahlseele
I have nothing against elves. There should be one hanging from every Tree!
There are many elves in my life. And i only have a predator!

Yes, i do VERY MUCH hate them. Because of how they are portrayed most of the time.
ALSO because of how people tend to play them.
Every last single one of my characters gets the racist stigma against elves for free.
Aside from the proof of concept elf characters i made just to show that i can, indeed, make a viable elven character despite me hating their guts.
Only reason i don't like playing dwarves is because of all the short jokes and the small plays on words.
Give me a Troll or Ork any day. I LOVE playing an Intelligence 5 Troll as the big dumb strong-man, while being a machiavellian sheming backstabbing mastermind behind the scenes.
Nobody expects the 3m big muscle packet that runs screaming into every fight to be the brains behind anything ^^
Humans are just too bland for me.
I have, right now, a very big problem with one of my buddies and sometimes GM, because he is actually playing an elven character and playing him so that i am starting to like him too x.x
nezumi
I've never been a big fan of elves. In fact, I specifically dislike them. And here's why...


Basically since LotR, elves have been portrayed as snooty and superior. This got worse with D&D, since apparently Gygax loved wizards and elves at the exclusion of all else, and elves were pretty super compared to most other races. Ask anyone outside of the SR family what they imagine an elf like, and they have an image of someone tall, elegant, beautiful, strong, well-spoken, intelligent, forever young, technologically superior - in a word, perfect.

In Shadowrun, some of that carries over. In some ways, SR handled elves very well - everyone expects them to be beautiful, yadda yadda, but they aren't always, and they have to eat soy just like the rest of us. Some elves are haughty because of their background, some aren't. But they're all still guys who get kicked in the head by the cyberpunk universe. In some cases they aren't handled well - immortal elves apparently invented and did everything worth mention, and really are super. Leonardo Da Vinci was an elf. So was Richard the Lion-hearted. If it's worth noticing, it was done by an elf.

Stat-wise, elves really were super. Elves were the only race with the all-important bonus to Quickness (which fed into every firearm skill, combat pool, reaction, rigging pool and so on) and the only race with no penalties (aside from humans). 1st and 2nd edition, they were the all-around best. Other races were good at their specialization, but elves were good at EVERYTHING and bad at nothing. And they still didn't age, so there was no reason why, in 50 years, elves shouldn't be the CEO of everything (and were still beautiful and were feeling distinctly not cyberpunk).

A major result of the first and last point was elves were the favorite race of munchkins, newbies, and people who wanted to play batman - i.e. all of the most irritating players. Remembering back, 80% of my least favorite players played elves. It was irritating and stupid. The number of elf lone wolves, elf lesbian ice queens/sluts, elf super mages ... It got old.


Elves were a little more balanced in SR3, but you only realized it if you sat down and did the math (which most of these people didn't). I understand it's more balanced in SR4, which is good. But all of those pre-concieved notions about elves being awesome (or munchie) still linger.
Blade
Elves are the Sixth World Jews.
'Nuff Said.
Zak
Love 'em or Hate 'em ?

Where is the Shoot 'em option?
Prime Mover
My impression of elves come a player I had during first edition. An aloof Elven Street Sami by the street name of Gee. He just played him so well, aloof without being an ass and holding to a strict code of honor that he upheld without causing team conflict. Professional, confident and calculating.
SincereAgape
QUOTE (nezumi @ Oct 28 2009, 10:44 AM) *
I've never been a big fan of elves. In fact, I specifically dislike them. And here's why...


Basically since LotR, elves have been portrayed as snooty and superior. This got worse with D&D, since apparently Gygax loved wizards and elves at the exclusion of all else, and elves were pretty super compared to most other races. Ask anyone outside of the SR family what they imagine an elf like, and they have an image of someone tall, elegant, beautiful, strong, well-spoken, intelligent, forever young, technologically superior - in a word, perfect.

In Shadowrun, some of that carries over. In some ways, SR handled elves very well - everyone expects them to be beautiful, yadda yadda, but they aren't always, and they have to eat soy just like the rest of us. Some elves are haughty because of their background, some aren't. But they're all still guys who get kicked in the head by the cyberpunk universe. In some cases they aren't handled well - immortal elves apparently invented and did everything worth mention, and really are super. Leonardo Da Vinci was an elf. So was Richard the Lion-hearted. If it's worth noticing, it was done by an elf.

Stat-wise, elves really were super. Elves were the only race with the all-important bonus to Quickness (which fed into every firearm skill, combat pool, reaction, rigging pool and so on) and the only race with no penalties (aside from humans). 1st and 2nd edition, they were the all-around best. Other races were good at their specialization, but elves were good at EVERYTHING and bad at nothing. And they still didn't age, so there was no reason why, in 50 years, elves shouldn't be the CEO of everything (and were still beautiful and were feeling distinctly not cyberpunk).

A major result of the first and last point was elves were the favorite race of munchkins, newbies, and people who wanted to play batman - i.e. all of the most irritating players. Remembering back, 80% of my least favorite players played elves. It was irritating and stupid. The number of elf lone wolves, elf lesbian ice queens/sluts, elf super mages ... It got old.


Elves were a little more balanced in SR3, but you only realized it if you sat down and did the math (which most of these people didn't). I understand it's more balanced in SR4, which is good. But all of those pre-concieved notions about elves being awesome (or munchie) still linger.


Well put Nezumi.

-Not so much pointing out the character concepts of Elves. Shadowrun does do a better job then D&D of allowing players to create the A-typical D&D type of elf.

-Given character concepts; anyone who is stuck up, haughty, arrogant, racist of any metarace of cultural race will not be liked by most people. There are neat Elven characters such as the SR1 Decker trying to meet ends meet, etc.

But in some cases there is still the stigma of "Elf." they have to break through or face when interacting with most NPCs or PCs for the first time. My question is centering around the elf race in general (mechanically, sterotypically, what they represent etc.) So far it seems most people support the fact that elves are disliked or even hated by players.

I for one love elves because of their elitist attitudes, improved benefits, and physical appereance superority they have over the other races. This is changing though the more and more I play the race.
Stahlseele
Addendum: in SR3, because it was linked to quickness, Elves could wear more armor than humans, dwarves, orks and trolls . . without problem . .
darthmord
I always liked Humans, Elves, and Trolls. I have never played a dwarf or ork. Why? Anything a dwarf could do, a troll could do better IMO. Orks? Eww, I'm not playing a stinky stupid ork.

Oddly enough, all my players when I used to GM SR1 & SR2 all played humans, elves, and trolls (in order of preference, though we always did have at least 1 troll in the party).
Semerkhet
Totally independently, all of the players in my recently started game created elves. Being an all-elf group presents some advantages and disadvantages, many of which have already been covered in this topic. They slide into human/elf-dominated high society easier, but need to work extra hard to make connections to some other metahuman communities. I just apply the appropriate social test modifiers and let them go at it.

One of the things I like about Shadowrun elves is that there is a lot of diversity.
In my group you have:
-the ethnically Japanese elf who grew up middle class in the Renraku arcology and survived the shutdown as a teenager.
-the elf that grew up poor in Redmond and ran the streets with the Ancients.
-the elf from the Tir whose parents gave him an awful Tolkien'esque name and immersed him in the Tir's "elven culture."
-the elf also from the Tir, but from an upper-class corporate upbringing and who couldn't care less about "elven culture."

End result is that even in a group composed exclusively of elves, there can be a lot of diversity in background and personality.
crash2029
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 28 2009, 10:14 AM) *
I have, right now, a very big problem with one of my buddies and sometimes GM, because he is actually playing an elven character and playing him so that i am starting to like him too x.x

You poor bastard.

I am playing an elf face in a game and his personality is kind of a composite Neal Caffrey/Templeton Peck/Patrick Jane thing.

I remember GM'ing back in SR1 for my dad. Goddamn I hated his elves. It was, and is, pretty much all he plays. I remember telling him that his elf shaman, who had never even been to the Tir, did NOT speak elvish. And his "I brush my hair back over my ear" got really old. He was the damn posterchild for the Tolkien elf wannabe. Gah. I consider it a personal victory that I can still keep an open mind about elves. At least when he is playing elves he isn't playing shapers, SURGE'd animal-things, and bizarre metavarients. I still treasure the look on his face when he was told that for a certain D&D game he had to play a human fighter. Good times. Good times.
Sixgun_Sage
They're people, shaped by their circumstances just like anybody else, that being said, I rarely play them and kinda find them annoying. Eventually every position of power inside corporations will be held by elves and dwarves in SR because of their long natural lifespans and Leonization treatments. It doesn't matter if they don't start out the best, they can just wait you out. That means that elves will tend to control politics, after all, if you are an elven CEO and are thinking of backing a candidate inside your political party who is more likely to represent your interests, the human, or the fellow elf? Fund Raising tends to predict victors in politics.
Ascalaphus
I expect particularly the elves are likely to take over. They have more Charisma than everyone else, and no mental drawbacks. Combined with their lifespan, they'll be most succesful in places when you get more power the longer you stay around and the better you can talk. In short, politics and bussiness (and perhaps institutionalized magic.)

But there's an "upside": people will see it coming. And they'll fear it, and try to do something about it. You'll see people raving about the "elvish conspiracy" and the "elven world order" like conspiracy nuts will talk about zionist plots do now. Except that they'll be vastly more plausible...

In many games with my friends I'm the one they all agitate against because they think I'm plotting against them, and because I win often. I do enjoy the challenge of trying to maneuver people against each other who want to team up against me. They know better, but I can often keep them from acting on it. Hence I do enjoy elves in SR wink.gif
Saint Sithney
I'd be more than happy to have the people who control major business trends be the long-lived long view types. It's better than a bunch of guys who don't care about what happens 50 years from now, because they'll be dead. In fact, I see that as a major detriment for elves in the business world. To be a corporate raider, you have to be thinking about "How much money can I make before next Thursday?" It seems to me that a 100-year span of thinking that, and only that, each and every day, without the approaching promise of retirement, well, I figure that would drive anyone insane. The shorter-lived races have the impetus needed to be savage business types, because they are short lived. Besides, we all know that, when it comes down to it, a person is just a person, and profit always comes before people, no matter how pretty they are.
Cheshyr
Our current gaming group is 2 dwarves, an orc, and a troll. Elves and humans are boring, IMO. Playing a human might be fun, for the challenge. I can't really find a reason to play an elf... ok, ok, if you need charisma for casting or social situations... or if that extra agility is really that important. From a backstory angle, elves are just too... remote. I guess I should give it some more thought, but except for game mechanic reasons, I'm not terribly inclined to play an elf.
darthmord
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Nov 2 2009, 02:24 PM) *
I'd be more than happy to have the people who control major business trends be the long-lived long view types. It's better than a bunch of guys who don't care about what happens 50 years from now, because they'll be dead. In fact, I see that as a major detriment for elves in the business world. To be a corporate raider, you have to be thinking about "How much money can I make before next Thursday?" It seems to me that a 100-year span of thinking that, and only that, each and every day, without the approaching promise of retirement, well, I figure that would drive anyone insane. The shorter-lived races have the impetus needed to be savage business types, because they are short lived. Besides, we all know that, when it comes down to it, a person is just a person, and profit always comes before people, no matter how pretty they are.


Yet an Elf who has that rapacious short-term view coupled with the long-term view is a dangerous SOB. In the end, that sort of outlook isn't that different than Dragons and Great Dragons.

Could look at H. He's bored. He's tired of the long-view. He craves excitement and adventure. Those happen to be short-term view things. Even the long-viewed want to have fun.
Whipstitch
Keep in mind that elves live in a culture that is in many ways defined by the shorter lived races, whereas dragons are haughty and have their own culture and traditions to fall back on. I'm not so sure the "long view" is really as natural to the elves as some people here are implying. If nothing else, the majority of elves would be conditioned by a society that doesn't think in such terms and has defined what success means long ago. Plus, there's the li'l sticky issue that taking a truly long view on things is damned near impossible. Change is always on the way. Great Dragons and IEs manage to pull it off, but that's mostly because they're ridiculous creatures that are powered by plot. Their ages and intellects are just the handwavium that lets it happen.
Ayeohx
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Oct 30 2009, 10:55 AM) *
They're people, shaped by their circumstances just like anybody else, that being said, I rarely play them and kinda find them annoying. Eventually every position of power inside corporations will be held by elves and dwarves in SR because of their long natural lifespans and Leonization treatments. It doesn't matter if they don't start out the best, they can just wait you out. That means that elves will tend to control politics, after all, if you are an elven CEO and are thinking of backing a candidate inside your political party who is more likely to represent your interests, the human, or the fellow elf? Fund Raising tends to predict victors in politics.


I think that was mentioned in a Shadowrun ministory somewhere, about people being suspicious of their elven coworkers who take management positions and then never retire because of their lifespans. In fact, I think that every shadowrunner should have a run that involves knocking off some elf manager so a human can take his job. May even be the next game I run...
Whipstitch
Yeah, that's actually a concept that the writers have explicitly mentioned before, just not when dealing with corporate culture. The Ancients have been traditionally too well-equipped and too well-connected to suffer much attrition from other gangs, and the old guard isn't old, at least not physically. So according to Runner Havens, some of the young guns are thinking of spreading their wings a bit since the only way to rise through the ranks is when something "unfortunate" happens.
Ironworker
If you are going to have the "Tolkein" races in any game setting you pretty much have to have elves. However I have little sympathy for people who play mostly or only elves because they tend to be munchkins. Even if they think they aren't they really are munchkins and min maxers. That's because Elves are always the best race for that type of play. Shadowrun is no different.

Elves also tend to be played by people who forget that Shadowrunners are mercenary and criminal scumbags working for pay. Perhaps 1 out of 10 players play an unique elf. Playing stereotypes doesn't really bother me if the player is playing it up and doing a good job but elf players usually think they are great roleplayers too even when they are playing the worst kind of stereotype.

Right now I'm playing a kinda stereotypical angry Orc street sam. He hates everyone not an Orc and Elves most of all. He only tolerates the elves he works with because they are good at their end of the job. I play him as an unabashed bigot criminal scumbag. The very point of the character is that he is not unique but I don't pretend that he is. Our group is actually made up pretty much only of Orcs and Elves so it's a lot of fun to play the over the top Orc rights activist.

Someone else said it. Elves are always the "fortunate sons". Just accept it and don't take in game crap personally.
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