Because the Blood Magic page isn't done yet and you need a fix:
Uncle Ancient's Annotated Aztlan Annotations
Full Version: The Ancient Files: Filler
*gasp* *pant* Oh my god. It was good, in an almost orgasmic kind of way... 
Great going, AH. I enjoyed it.
Great going, AH. I enjoyed it.
| QUOTE |
| Umsondo the Watcher. Very quiet, and given a measure of respect. The only hints to Umsondo's origin is his/her name, which is presumably African; and thus presumably a representative of the Zulu Confedertion and/or Heavenherds of Azania. It is unlikely Umsondo serves/represents Mujaji the Rain Queen, as a later comment on her ellicits an odd response. |
Umsondo is s specific skin color of a breed of cattle of the Ngumi tribe. Umsondo is, well, it's this color. The Nguni are a Bantu people, described in a definiton as:
| QUOTE |
1. A member of a group of peoples of southern and southeast Africa, including the Swazi, Ndebele, Xhosa, and Zulu. 2. Any of the Bantu languages of the Nguni. |
Umsondo would almost assuredly be Zulu, and specifically of the heavenherds more likely than almost anything else (esp. someone connected to Mujaji). However, the context of the Watcher could be anything from an Archaeoastronomy historical context of shamanism (Gee, you think he{?} might be magical?), or he could be someone charged with protecting the nation (viz. watching Mujaji), or a global context of watching on the activities of the other immortals.
Viewing the page shows me how little I actually know about the sixth world and the events leading up to it.
Seattle suddenly looks one hell of alot smaller and insignificant.
Seattle suddenly looks one hell of alot smaller and insignificant.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| this color. |
Are you implying that Usmundo is a cow shifter (were-cow for the traditionalists)?
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Feb 1 2004, 11:49 PM) |
| or a global context of watching on the activities of the other immortals. |
Nice work. Perhaps the Watcher is a spy, or an organisation of spies, created as a result of some sort of ancient cold war?
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Are you implying that Usmundo is a cow shifter (were-cow for the traditionalists)? |
Gives new meaning to the phrase "Were's the beef?"
No. I'm implying that Umsondo is a reflection of his identity--regionally, and possibly, how should I put this, as a reflection of his nature.
I have been thinking two things, reading this document.
1. I am leaning more towards Juan Atzcapotzalco (hah. No looking.) being a bound spirt, and
2. he was bound by Dunkelzahn to serve as a conduit and actor in the rise of Aztlan's religious-magical practices and the attempt to focus blood magic as a weapon. Dunk's bequest to Juan was his pardon.
I think Dunkelzahn was ultimately responsible for the effective creation of Aztlaner blood magic. It has been said over and over and over again, that dragon's motives are far different than ours. And their perspectices are much longer-term, and focused on the complext interplay of action-reaction-and counterreaction. I think that Dunk believed that crisis precipitates change, and he needed a crisis to move them off their asses. He was "encouraging" them with no real subtlety to deal with the Corruption and the threats that would emerge.
I also think about this in the context of an admitted sense of grief at the demise of faith, and of the fact that he did appear to acknowledge that he saw the world differently in the Sixth World than the Fourth--and was more hollistic and ready to accept his place in the Universe. How curious a 10,000 year-old Great Dragon--greatest of his kind--could lament the loss of faith and the idea that there is some greater purpose than even himself and his ideas.
He provoked a crisis, and he did it by taking a culture that practiced what has been considered for 500 years as a vile practice, but which reflected Old Practices (no doubt related to the Old Practices themselves) and manipulating a state religion and magical practice to effectively force a response.
And I also consider this in the context of the Will. I learned that 65-75% of Americans die without wills. But yet a 10,000 year-old Great Dragon was not only so fascinated with humanity that he created a Anglo-American will, but that he kept it constantly up to date (Which begs the question, who the Hell signs off on a Great Dragon's holographic will to make it official? Daviar didn't seem to be one.), and did it because he had created the Dragonheart and was probably plotting his demise for years--if not decades. A document which itself would have, and did, provoke a Hell of a lot of reactions that did indeed shake the world. I also want to mention that as a practice for my Wills & Trusts class I did what should be unthinkable, and wrote one. It's an interesting feeling to sit there and create something that is, as he stated himself, an instrument of, "encouragement and revenge." Especially for a self-described sentimental creature.
I have been thinking two things, reading this document.
1. I am leaning more towards Juan Atzcapotzalco (hah. No looking.) being a bound spirt, and
2. he was bound by Dunkelzahn to serve as a conduit and actor in the rise of Aztlan's religious-magical practices and the attempt to focus blood magic as a weapon. Dunk's bequest to Juan was his pardon.
I think Dunkelzahn was ultimately responsible for the effective creation of Aztlaner blood magic. It has been said over and over and over again, that dragon's motives are far different than ours. And their perspectices are much longer-term, and focused on the complext interplay of action-reaction-and counterreaction. I think that Dunk believed that crisis precipitates change, and he needed a crisis to move them off their asses. He was "encouraging" them with no real subtlety to deal with the Corruption and the threats that would emerge.
I also think about this in the context of an admitted sense of grief at the demise of faith, and of the fact that he did appear to acknowledge that he saw the world differently in the Sixth World than the Fourth--and was more hollistic and ready to accept his place in the Universe. How curious a 10,000 year-old Great Dragon--greatest of his kind--could lament the loss of faith and the idea that there is some greater purpose than even himself and his ideas.
He provoked a crisis, and he did it by taking a culture that practiced what has been considered for 500 years as a vile practice, but which reflected Old Practices (no doubt related to the Old Practices themselves) and manipulating a state religion and magical practice to effectively force a response.
And I also consider this in the context of the Will. I learned that 65-75% of Americans die without wills. But yet a 10,000 year-old Great Dragon was not only so fascinated with humanity that he created a Anglo-American will, but that he kept it constantly up to date (Which begs the question, who the Hell signs off on a Great Dragon's holographic will to make it official? Daviar didn't seem to be one.), and did it because he had created the Dragonheart and was probably plotting his demise for years--if not decades. A document which itself would have, and did, provoke a Hell of a lot of reactions that did indeed shake the world. I also want to mention that as a practice for my Wills & Trusts class I did what should be unthinkable, and wrote one. It's an interesting feeling to sit there and create something that is, as he stated himself, an instrument of, "encouragement and revenge." Especially for a self-described sentimental creature.
| QUOTE |
I have been compiling and updating this document off and on for many years, always striving to make my will accurately represent … well, my will. (My understanding is that most humans use their wills as instruments of encouragement and revenge, and it seemed like an excellent idea.) If I appear to have missed the mark, then please view my efforts charitably, and keep in mind that I take the very long view of things. In addition to designating specific recipients for the many things I have accumulated that will serve a better purpose in other hands, I have made bequests that I hope will foster the development of some of my favorite metahuman characteristics. |
No doubt Faith is among them, somewhere.
He had been plotting this for a long time. Create the Aztlaner blood rite, uncover the Locus (funny isn't it, that the Locus was in present-day Texas? You don't think that nationalist pride was the only reason why southern Texas was reconquered, and kept?), create the Dragonheart, and power it when the blood magic had reached a precipitous point in the construction of two bridges at roughly the same time, in order to make sure that--in fact--it was a kick in the ass, but not a axe to face.
And that makes Dunkelzahn, by my own definition of the word, about as Evil a being as I can think of.
| QUOTE |
| Just for the record, the New Jesuits are one of those groups of Awakened Catholics. Brightlight might have interest as Leonardo is very interested in the Church, espeically magical groups related to it. |
But didn't the Aztlan SB also suggest that the New Jesuits were explicitly NOT Awakened. They know a lot about magic, but none are magically active for their own safety.
| QUOTE | ||
This singular reference points to Jungle Cat as a were-jaguar, or other form of shape-shifter. Umsondo's comment may mean that Umsondo is a were-lion, explaining that poster's Azanian interests...but the evidence is too scanty for sureties. |
One of the interesting things over the years has been how "Awakened jaguar" has always--or at least more consistently than any other--to be substituted as a Were-jaguar. Whatever happened to all of the references to "our leonine friends"--the Awakened lions in ED that could harm a Horror with their gaze (IIRC)? Might it not be so simple to suggest that Awakened jaguar==American eqv. to these lions?
| QUOTE | ||
Not incredibly important, I think. |
Given the original context of the conflict, I think it is an tragic disregard of the circumstances.
| QUOTE |
::::[WORDSMYTH] I trust we shall be enlightened regarding this enigmatic exchange. For my part I already see steps must be taken. I have underestimated Aztechnology. :::::[THE BIG 'D'] You will note that, from the information here, it does not appear that Lofwyr has made that mistake. I am surprised he has not told you more of his plans. |
The Jewel of Memory is rather grand, isn't it?
| QUOTE |
| :::::[LADY OF THE COURT] Lofwyr has nuclear weapons? :::::[THE BIG 'D'] Of course. Wonderful irony, isn't it? |
It's interesting how willingly he accepts and exploits the toxics. This also brings up an interesting point. Aztechnology and Aztlan share their home ground in one of the most toxic cities on Earth. Perhaps it is telling that the Giant Evil Conspiracy of Doom was not headquartered in a remote, environmentally-neutral/good locale.
I also like the idea of Hecate being Aina. Even more reason for her to be on the DF Board of Directors, than to reign in her arrogance and keep her under his control.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| He provoked a crisis, and he did it by taking a culture that practiced what has been considered for 500 years as a vile practice, but which reflected Old Practices (no doubt related to the Old Practices themselves) and manipulating a state religion and magical practice to effectively force a response. He had been plotting this for a long time. Create the Aztlaner blood rite, uncover the Locus (funny isn't it, that the Locus was in present-day Texas? You don't think that nationalist pride was the only reason why southern Texas was reconquered, and kept?), create the Dragonheart, and power it when the blood magic had reached a precipitous point in the construction of two bridges at roughly the same time, in order to make sure that--in fact--it was a kick in the ass, but not a axe to face. And that makes Dunkelzahn, by my own definition of the word, about as Evil a being as I can think of. |
You might want to add crazy and suicidal and half a dozen things to your description of D since he sacrificed himself to power the Dragonheart.
Evil guys to my knowledge usually have a pretty good sense of self preservation. Unless they are betting on the afterlife.
| QUOTE (Buzzed) | ||
Nice work. Perhaps the Watcher is a spy, or an organisation of spies, created as a result of some sort of ancient cold war? |
Well, yes, the Watchers are a secret global organization that watches and records the activities of immortals but never interfere...
...Because in the end there can be only one!
This is me wishing my ISP didn't hate geocities...
To the first party to determine what lies behind the door of room 1835 in the Renraku Arcology in Seattle and report their findings to the Draco Foundation, I leave 5 million nuyen. -Dunkie's Will
Ancient History, I've just read Arcology Shutdown. It turns out that the Draco Foundation upped the reward to 8 million! You need to keep up with the SOTA more often!
Ancient History, I've just read Arcology Shutdown. It turns out that the Draco Foundation upped the reward to 8 million! You need to keep up with the SOTA more often!
Yes, yes. I'll get there.
Good work on Umsondo, though. Must write that down.
Good work on Umsondo, though. Must write that down.
| QUOTE |
| But didn't the Aztlan SB also suggest that the New Jesuits were explicitly NOT Awakened. They know a lot about magic, but none are magically active for their own safety. |
See Harlequin's pun on the subject.
| QUOTE |
| One of the interesting things over the years has been how "Awakened jaguar" has always--or at least more consistently than any other--to be substituted as a Were-jaguar. Whatever happened to all of the references to "our leonine friends"--the Awakened lions in ED that could harm a Horror with their gaze (IIRC)? Might it not be so simple to suggest that Awakened jaguar==American eqv. to these lions? |
Said critters were not sentient back then, but we know Mujaji protects a family of were-lions nowadays. Lofwyr tried to take 'em in the Rite of SUccession.
| QUOTE |
| Given the original context of the conflict, I think it is an tragic disregard of the circumstances. |
If ye would elaborate, I'd be more than happy to revise that section.
| QUOTE |
| The Jewel of Memory is rather grand, isn't it? |
Aye, but I have no idea why ye mention it in this context.
The New Jesuit says that the New Jesuits in Aztlan are not Awakened, although they know quite a bit about it. This does not prevent other New Jesuits from being Awakened.
It would expose them to "unacceptable risks", whatever that means.
Big D is the only good dragon. Well, except for maybe Masaru.
I highly doubt he taught anyone blood magic.
It would expose them to "unacceptable risks", whatever that means.
Big D is the only good dragon. Well, except for maybe Masaru.
I highly doubt he taught anyone blood magic.
Sirrurg is the only good dragon.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Sirrurg is the only good dragon. ~J |
Ummm....
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Sirrurg is the only good dragon. ~J |
Come on now... you can't make a claim like that and *not* back it up with a huge sermon/rant. I'm disappointed.
Ok, that's the first time I've read a lot of those.
While a lot of comments to Hecate make contextual sense if it were Aina (references that could be conjuring/dealing with a Horror), I would, from what I've read in WWE and such, be surprised if Big D and Laughing Man were to take that tone with Aina, whereas I can totally see them taking the tone they do with Alachia.
While a lot of comments to Hecate make contextual sense if it were Aina (references that could be conjuring/dealing with a Horror), I would, from what I've read in WWE and such, be surprised if Big D and Laughing Man were to take that tone with Aina, whereas I can totally see them taking the tone they do with Alachia.
Why, exactly, was Dunkelzahn the "good" dragon?
Because he claimed to be working towards humanity's best interest? Eh, I'm probably not alone in thinking that is incredibly naive.
But the other problem is, he was playing games with them. He seemed to have a remarkable grasp of what was going on, and did everything short of saying, "HEY! DO SOMETHING! STOP THEM!" but he did not.
Crisis preciptates change.
As for the responses:
The NJs can be, fine. It was my understanding from Aztlan that they weren't. At least, not the ones in Aztlan. I wasn't sure of H's comment, frankly.
I did not suggest that this Awakened Jaguar was sentient, nor did I suggest that's what Jungle Cat was. I just thought it was interesting that what used to be clever note X years ago when Aztlan was first released has not been mentioned for a while. I specifically do not think that Jungle Cat is said creature. I think he/it/other is a dragon, a free spirit, or something else.
Finally, I only mention the Jewel of Memory to suggest that Dunk had more insight into Lofwyr's plans, and was probably working around them... one way or another.
I still stand by my assertion about Dunkelzahn. Hell, I am beginning to think that there are in increasing number of allusions between Dunkelzahn and Quetzalcoatl himself.
Because he claimed to be working towards humanity's best interest? Eh, I'm probably not alone in thinking that is incredibly naive.
But the other problem is, he was playing games with them. He seemed to have a remarkable grasp of what was going on, and did everything short of saying, "HEY! DO SOMETHING! STOP THEM!" but he did not.
Crisis preciptates change.
As for the responses:
The NJs can be, fine. It was my understanding from Aztlan that they weren't. At least, not the ones in Aztlan. I wasn't sure of H's comment, frankly.
I did not suggest that this Awakened Jaguar was sentient, nor did I suggest that's what Jungle Cat was. I just thought it was interesting that what used to be clever note X years ago when Aztlan was first released has not been mentioned for a while. I specifically do not think that Jungle Cat is said creature. I think he/it/other is a dragon, a free spirit, or something else.
Finally, I only mention the Jewel of Memory to suggest that Dunk had more insight into Lofwyr's plans, and was probably working around them... one way or another.
I still stand by my assertion about Dunkelzahn. Hell, I am beginning to think that there are in increasing number of allusions between Dunkelzahn and Quetzalcoatl himself.
He kills off the IEs involved in the downtime hunting, and so far as we know doesn't concern himself with the doings of the other races. In other words, he minds his own business.
~J
~J
Good?Evil?What do you call good?What do you call evil?These ideas are oddly not even wholly formed in the fifth world.Many part parts of the world did not have good or evil until, some europens came over and tought them these ideals.
And who is to say that all dragons aren't good?Just that some are less good than others?After all what is is best for the whole is often best for the part.Hestby,may wish to change people by force, but she also wishes to make the world a better place.Then in the end,isn't that the goal of everyone.Take the Humanis,they wish to make the world a better place..They simply wish to do in a way,that many think is wrong.Does that make them evil?NO it makes them different.
And who is to say that all dragons aren't good?Just that some are less good than others?After all what is is best for the whole is often best for the part.Hestby,may wish to change people by force, but she also wishes to make the world a better place.Then in the end,isn't that the goal of everyone.Take the Humanis,they wish to make the world a better place..They simply wish to do in a way,that many think is wrong.Does that make them evil?NO it makes them different.
Exactly. Shadowrun isn't about Good vs. Evil, but about the shades of grey.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| He kills off the IEs involved in the downtime hunting, and so far as we know doesn't concern himself with the doings of the other races. In other words, he minds his own business. ~J |
Who does?
I always kinda thought of Dunkie as that annoying "older brother" who knows everything. I could see him starting stuff (like Aztlan) as a way of teliing everyone what he wanted to tell them without saying a damn thing and having to face the combined might of lots of immortals who are angry that he gave away their advantage. Also, what better teacher than experience. The invae gave a whole lot of ractical experience in dealing with planar beings. Why not experience in blood magic to show everyone the dangers?
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| And that makes Dunkelzahn, by my own definition of the word, about as Evil a being as I can think of. |
I think it makes him more of a 'Hari Seldon' than anything evil... after all sacrifices must be made for the good of the many.
| QUOTE |
| Big D is the only good dragon. Well, except for maybe Masaru. |
What about Hestaby?
@ Playing Games; you make my space bar sad
@ Playing Games; you make my space bar sad
| QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys) | ||
Who does? |
Sirrurg.
Don't forget Aden. If there was ever a good dragon, it's him.
Note: lying.
Note: lying.
| QUOTE (Aztlan) |
| :::::[LADY OF THE COURT] Lofwyr has nuclear weapons? :::::[THE BIG 'D'] Of course. Wonderful irony, isn't it? |
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Dunkelzahn's last statement might refer to the fact that dragons like Lofwyr now have access to weapons of mass destruction (instead of the previous age, where the highest military technology was a giant flying stone battleship, three of which together were capable of taking down a Great Dragon). |
Never got the occasion to read Aztlan, so just thought, the irony here might be Lofwyr having nukes while Alamais/Winternight spares no effort to acquire some.
| QUOTE (Aztlan) |
| :::::[LADY OF THE COURT] I still say we should have killed Coleman. :::::[WORDSMYTH] I do not seem to remember you being part of, or even caring about, such things then. Besides, the outcome was required. :::::[THE BIG 'D'] But it did not need to happen that way. :::::[WORDSMYTH] True. |
"The outcome was required..." And Dunkelzahn to agree. Woah... First interpretation, it's about the mana spike. At least, I don't think Harlequin understand this, or he would react in some way, considering what it forced him to do. As said above, Dunkelzahn might want to teach humanity a lesson through example, but even that is a bit harsh. It cause more trouble than it would solve. Crimsondude might love it as a part of his theory on Dunkelzahn behind Aztlan (and Ehran would know ? hmmm). But why Ehran would brig that ?
Second interpretation, tearing the US apart. From Ehran point of view, the obvious interest was the creation of Tir Tairngire, giving control of of a nation's pattern including Crater Lake. Why does Dunkelzahn agree ? International affairs balance ? Destroy a nation's pattern that linked way too much mana singularities (Crater Lake, Texan Locus, Denver spirit, the Anasazi ruins...) ? Could be argued many European countries have their shitload of power sites as well, but afterall they're supposed to split in many nation-states as well. Big disgression to do here. Again, Crimsondude might appreciate how the various secession made Texas vulnerable to Aztlan aggression, putting the locus in their hand.
| QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Feb 2 2004, 03:17 PM) | ||
Who does? |
Sirrug.
/edit/ jerk
/edit/Well, Masaru just seems to be interested in the Philipenes and helping the natives. Granted, he may be trying to take it over, but that will be more difficult with a democracy than a Ghostwalker-type dominion.
And the stuff in DotSW makes me really wonder about Hestaby, even given the posters angle.
Artist's rendition of Hestaby, Spawn of Evil.
Reproduced here by permission of the Humanis Policlub Archives.
~J
Reproduced here by permission of the Humanis Policlub Archives.
~J
I didn't say I thought she was evil.
I am just more suspicious.
Although I should have been, ever since she joined the Tir Princes...
I am just more suspicious.
Although I should have been, ever since she joined the Tir Princes...
| QUOTE |
:::::[HECATE] Was this a personal message, or was there some deper meaning? :::::[THE BIG 'D'] Nearly as big as they come, but not for Atzcapotzalco... A mad cultist brought a warm, squishy and above-all fresh elf heart to Juan's office. No, I have no idea what Dunkelzahn's comment means, unless it was to tell the power behind Juan/AZT something. |
Lars J. Matthews?
----
Crimsondude's theroy might explain why Jungle Cat doesn't recongnize the Aztec style of Blood Magic.
| QUOTE (Shanshu Freeman) | ||
I think it makes him more of a 'Hari Seldon' than anything evil... after all sacrifices must be made for the good of the many. |
I take that back. I just realized that he only meets one part of my two part test.
| QUOTE (Nath) | ||
Never got the occasion to read Aztlan, so just thought, the irony here might be Lofwyr having nukes while Alamais/Winternight spares no effort to acquire some. |
That's hilarious!
| QUOTE | ||
"The outcome was required..." And Dunkelzahn to agree. Woah... First interpretation, it's about the mana spike. At least, I don't think Harlequin understand this, or he would react in some way, considering what it forced him to do. As said above, Dunkelzahn might want to teach humanity a lesson through example, but even that is a bit harsh. It cause more trouble than it would solve. Crimsondude might love it as a part of his theory on Dunkelzahn behind Aztlan (and Ehran would know ? hmmm). But why Ehran would brig that ? Second interpretation, tearing the US apart. From Ehran point of view, the obvious interest was the creation of Tir Tairngire, giving control of of a nation's pattern including Crater Lake. Why does Dunkelzahn agree ? International affairs balance ? Destroy a nation's pattern that linked way too much mana singularities (Crater Lake, Texan Locus, Denver spirit, the Anasazi ruins...) ? Could be argued many European countries have their shitload of power sites as well, but afterall they're supposed to split in many nation-states as well. Big disgression to do here. Again, Crimsondude might appreciate how the various secession made Texas vulnerable to Aztlan aggression, putting the locus in their hand. |
I had thought that this had been settled for some time now towards the second theory, but the first definitely looks more and more likely. The big question is, could there have been multiple purposes behind provoking the GGD? Geopolitically, it did help fracture the U.S. and make it easier for TT to form and Aztlan to take over southern Texas. The revelation to Coleman, however, also led to the release of the Native Americans who were interned and participated in the GGD. Perhaps Ehran sees it as leading to #2, but Dunk also intended it to instigate #1.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||
Lars J. Matthews? |
I could have sworn that it was, ostensibly, an offering. Why not take it at face value and then assume dragons think elf is the tastiest meat?
| QUOTE |
:::::[HECATE] Truth or not? :::::[WORDSMYTH] I suppose that's to me. We are not unsympathetic to the plight of the rebels. :::::[HECATE] And you, Lady of the Court? :::::[LADY OF THE COURT] I'm afraid I'm in no position to comment on our political dealings. :::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] Yeah, right. Are Watchful eyes et in this direction? :::::[UMSONDO] My gaze is cast in all directions. Laughing Man knows assistance is subtle and indirect when given. I follow the Lady's wisdom. This is in regards to what other nations are helping the rebels: Wordsmyth confirms Tir Tairngire provides limited aid while Umsondo does the same when Lady of the Court tries to stonewall. It is interesting that Hecate asks this, because if she were Alachia then her knowledge of inner politics in both Tirs should preclude her asking the question. |
What if Hecate is Alachria and Sheila Blatavaska, but not Sósan Naerain? What if both Sósan and Jenna are her daughters? That would explain the lack of knowing. What evidence do we have that it is Alachria that was coaching Lady Brane Deigh in Tir na nÓg and not another of her daughters?
| QUOTE |
| :::::[LADY OF THE COURT] How odd. Why would they do that when it would be so simple just to create a simulacrum or surragate of some kind? :::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] Personal experience again? |
Very telling, but not too much.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| What evidence do we have that it is Alachria that was coaching Lady Brane Deigh in Tir na nÓg and not another of her daughters? |
IIRC, she was with Lady Brane Deigh when Aina and H visited her in Worlds Without End.
Aina kept finding that she was popping up in all manner of uncomfortable places.
Aina kept finding that she was popping up in all manner of uncomfortable places.
Right, appropriate first round of corrections and ammendments made. Please tell me if'n ye note anything else, anywhere.
Dunk's decker might also be Gracie Friel.
Dunk's reference, "each of you is here because of who you are and in most cases who you represent, be it country or other interests" is curious insofar as determining that if Azania would merit a representative, Umsondo's allegiance might not be an issue.
Dunk's reference, "each of you is here because of who you are and in most cases who you represent, be it country or other interests" is curious insofar as determining that if Azania would merit a representative, Umsondo's allegiance might not be an issue.
| QUOTE |
This is in regards to the feathered serpent leading the Yucatan rebels, Pobre. Dunkelzahn believes him to be an adult dragon (that is a Lesser as opposed to a Great Dragon). Umsondo's comment is cryptic, but can either mean that Pobre is not a lesser dragon as believed, is a different lesser dragon, or perhaps that his actions are a mask for his intentions. Laughing Man simply makes a bad joke. |
What if he's just a pawn for Hualpa or another Great?
| QUOTE (Ancient History) | ||||||
If ye would elaborate, I'd be more than happy to revise that section. |
Well, this goes back to a long-running discussion (Which was probably a username or two ago. One which I'll admit in hindsight, I was arguing from in such a manner as to prolong a discussion in which we were closer than it seemed) about the politics, and specifically the racial politics of Mexico, and subsequently Aztlan. The conflict in the country was rekindled (assuming it ever went away, but was provoked by the Cold War) in native peoples and the castellanos who run the country diverging politically, economically, and eventually it led to the conflict in Chiapas (which is mentioned in the book). The thing is, many of the native peoples in the Yucatan and southern Mexico are descended from, amongst others, the Mayans, whereas the Aztecs had influence in central and northern Mexico. Northern and southern Mexico, and the Yucatan would more likely be with southern Mexico, are different. They're different like the North and south U.S. were before the Civil War. This conflict escalated significantly in Mexico during the 'oughts and teens which do reflect that there is a conflict between Spanish and pseudo-Aztec influences, and the Mayan peoples who still live in Mexico.
But this is not the point. The point is that there was a great amount of suggestion that most, if not all, of the crises were manufactured. That's not surprising, especially given the innuendoes coming out of SR products a decade ago. The provocation of cultural differences and conflicts did help spark the Yucatan conflict; perhaps not outright, but they've been there. And there is an irony that the descendants of the peoples who created the calendar which we (and IC they) use to plot the worlds are, at its base, fighting a war of survival against this manufactured, not altogether ironic social creation which has been focused into the manipulation of circumstances to reflect the Mayan and Aztec beliefs, and corrupt the latter into something for their own purposes.
It's an interesting footnote, and one of a couple of items (this and an actual breakdown of why I likened Dunk to Quetzalcoatl) I will try to address more thoroughly, but not now.
| QUOTE |
| :::::[HECATE] You mean beyond sending them a polite little warning about being careful what hey call up? |
| QUOTE |
| :::::<Then lkeave our conversation in, but delete the Names. Let them wonder.> |
In the last part, the otaku mentions /the/ dragon. Seems to indicate that only one dragon was present and that other was not a dragon.
I guess either Brightlight or Denairastas
It never gets done, y'know?
Speaking of which, any more Ancients work K-10?
Speaking of which, any more Ancients work K-10?
| QUOTE |
| Ancient History It never gets done, y'know? |
Yeah, I know. That's half the fun!
| QUOTE |
| Ancient History Speaking of which, any more Ancients work K-10? |
Yes and no. Nothing worth posting so much. But I have come to realize that Lucifer is not an idiot, as much as I hate to admit it. He didn't take Jenna's deal without a back-up plan.
| QUOTE |
| :::::[HECATE] What is an "Awakened jaguar"?? :::::[JUNGLE CAT] That would be me. :::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] <chuckle> :::::[UMSONDO] And he is hardly alone. :::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] Ah, our leonine friends. perhaps I should take a closer interest in such matters. :::::[UMSONDO] Perhaps you should. This singular reference points to Jungle Cat as a were-jaguar, or other form of shape-shifter. Umsondo's comment may mean that Umsondo is a were-lion, explaining that poster's Azanian interests...but the evidence is too scanty for sureties. |
What if, instead of creating Drakes, the Feathers Serpents made were-creatures? And then, by extension, what if Jungle Cat is a surviving were-jaguar from the previous age. He certainly sounds "worldly" as it were (PUN).
Why wouldn't Hecate, being either Alachia or Aina, ask this question? Both of them should already know the answer.
I'm going to vote also that Jungle Cat is not a dragon. By the rules for draconic discourse we see in the dragons pdf and in Dragons of the Sixth World, the following line would not have been acceptable:
| QUOTE |
| :::::[JUNGLE CAT] Thank you, dragon. My eyes did not need opening, but I have seen more today. You will be hearing from me. |
At least, so it seems to me. And this:
| QUOTE |
| :::::[JUNGLE CAT] No. There are plenty of spirits in Amazonia. I recognize their taste, as it were. :::::[THE LAUGHING MAN] Yes, I'm sure "as it were." Indeed. <chuckle> |
would lead me to suspect that he might be a free spirit after all, though there are other comments that make me less sure.
| QUOTE |
| This is an interesting scene between Hecate and Laughing Man. It works much better if Hecate is Aina, who was the paramour of a Horror and a lover of Harlequin's for centuries; but it works almost as well for Alachia, who as Queen of the Blood Wood. |
Also, the Blood Wood book says that it's rumored that Caimbuoul is sharing Alachia's bed, so either one could be an ex-lover. Not for as long, of course.
As for the compact they refer to a few times... I've been operating on the assumption that it was the result of the conflict between IEs and Dragons at the end of the 4th world. But, there's no evidence for that.
I've always thought the 'compact' was an agreement made between the various immortals sometime after the start of the 6th world... to prevent the IE's trying to take out the Dragons and to stop the Dragons trying to take revenge for the downcycle hunting. Seems to make sense... stops them all argueing whilst the Horrors show up and kill everyone!
Now, on the subject of Big D's decker chums setting up this meeting... I never bothered to point this out before, but surely the vast majority of participants in this meeting are running on 'trodes or tortoises - Harlequin doesn't have a datajack for a start, and any free-spirits/shapeshifters/dragons are unlikely to have one either! So at the start they aren't really at the Dragon's mercy as suggested... they could just pull the plug, still, I'm glad they hang around!
Now, on the subject of Big D's decker chums setting up this meeting... I never bothered to point this out before, but surely the vast majority of participants in this meeting are running on 'trodes or tortoises - Harlequin doesn't have a datajack for a start, and any free-spirits/shapeshifters/dragons are unlikely to have one either! So at the start they aren't really at the Dragon's mercy as suggested... they could just pull the plug, still, I'm glad they hang around!
| QUOTE |
| :::::[JUNGLE CAT] The obvious is such a potent weapon. A comment following a poster trying to discern the location of the Yucatan rebel's camps from their names. If you can find hidden meaning in it, you're a better man than I, Charlie Brown. |
I always read this as a simple "don't believe these locations!" from Jungle Cat. As in, the camps were named in such a way that locations could be easily guessed at, and then put somewhere else. Making a code that seems easy to crack is a great means of misdirection.
| QUOTE (LouP @ Jan 27 2004, 11:25 AM) |
On an unrelated note, I saw some discussion about the true identity of Hecate. Though this may have changed at some point after I left FASA, when she was first introduced, the intention was that Hecate (and possibly Sheila Blats(whatever)) was Alachia. I know there are some spots in some books (most notably Tir Tairngire I think) that suggest that this is not the case, but that was the original idea. |
Figures.
But it would have been so much cooler had it not been so blatant.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| But it would have been so much cooler had it not been so blatant. |
It can't have been too blatant if Hecate's identity has been up in the air this long.
Well, confirmation was lacking, but ... yeah.
You know - I dislike the whole ED/SR crossover stuff generally, but the more I read it all (especially AH's stuff) the more I get into it. It's actually all quite clever the way it's tied up with Dunk's will...
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