I'd go for some ettiquitte, con and negotiation (Influence skill group). Your charisma being a 6 it would make a very good secondary role for you with not much effort. If you want to go the Techno-rigger route you could do that as well-but my thought here is to let the machine sprites carry the load (for a while) and gradually build up skills (a rating 2 should be a sufficient start, just remember to add gunnery to your list as well).

Rotordrones with assault rifles make great backup if you can afford them, and they don't really require you to be a drone specialist in order to be effective. If you can score 15,500 you can get a robotic bodyguard with a really impressive set of combat stats, which means you can keep your meat safely hidden and still have someone to play in gunfights.

Making an effective drone is kind of a long process - Pick your base model, Upgrade it, Arm it, Install Sensors, and Load Autosofts. The MCT Rotordrone is 2,000. Upgrade it to Hardened Armor 9 for 1800. Install a basic weapon mount and AK-97 (with bolt-on Smartlink), 2400. Make sure you install R6 sensors in each of the six slots to upgrade the overall sensor package to Rating 6; I managed to spend 7,500 on a visual, audio, chemical and radio package. Load in Clearsight, Defense, and Automatics softs at R3 for a total of 1800.

This guy will get three IPs to attack with a pool of 8, enough armor to make him really hard to stop, roll 12 dice on visual perception tests, detect hidden ammunition and explosives via chemsniffer, detect invisible via Ultrasound sensors, and perform electronic warfare tests like a Sniffer 6. Also, it can fly.

As an upgrade, you might consider swapping the AK-97 for an Ares HVAR with the Safe Target mod. The High-Velocity upgrade means you can fire up to two long bursts a round, and depending on which rules your GM is using about recoil on Drones you'll have either six points of Recoil Compensation or won't suffer any recoil at all. Safe Target ensures that anyone who spoofs or hacks it won't be able to fire its weapon at you or your team.

For sheer firepower, this is 15k well spent. It's an incredibly effective anti-personel weapon that's all but immune to small arms fire, and if it does get blown up, it's expendable. Any round the opposition spends shooting at the drone is a round they aren't shooting at you, after all. Best of all, this doesn't cost you one point of Karma - you can keep upgrading your other skills while you weld your new sidekick together.

Currently you have the matrix aspect handled (What is the BP/karma level of your characters BTW?), but not much else.

How much karma/money does your char have available/earn per session?

3/6 of our first characters died in a final blaze of glory, so three of us are starting from scratch with either 400BP or 750 Karma if we're using a modded karmagen (Which I am). Instead of a cost of new attribute rating x3 karma cost, we use new attribute rating x5. The other three characters are 400BP and have a total of 25 Karma or so. We also have an adept that throws things (anything, really) for base 5P with an absolutely ridiculous dicepool, a troll mechanic with a bow, a face with some pistol skills, a magician based on mind control, a doc/battle magician, and a mundane hacker who is not very good at hacking.

We now get anywhere from 3 karma for easy missions, to 7 or 8 for ones that are likely to kill us (And many of them are).

I really like that drone idea, especially one loaded with a registered machine sprite with the appropriate skillsofts.

I guess my main question would be: Is it better to become a matrix juggernaut or to branch out into other roles that may not already be fulfilled by your party? Or should it be run entirely off of your character's personality? Even then, what're good secondary roles for a squishy, squishy hacker to take?

(Also, if a mod sees this, could you remove the extra O in the title? It's reeeeally bothering me. I get OCD about these things.)

You only really need to start branching out when you're hitting ceilings on your core abilities. Your matrix abilities are pretty good at a glance. As an elf TM however you would be remiss to not consider getting some secondary face (Influence) skills.

- J.

I'm of the opposite opinion. You should branch out as much as possible to fill holes in your groups capabilities. The key thing here is the diminishing returns for those extra dice and to keep in mind that a skill of 3 is a professional level skill. I would also strongly suggest talking to your GM as to what his/her expectations are regarding competency. Some seem to think that you need an UBER dice pool to do anything (15+).

Assuming an attribute of 3, going from a 4 to a 5 in a skill increases you capability by 14%, going from 0 to 2 increases the capability by 250% (consider that if you defaulted there is a -1DP).

Elf Face is generally a good idea, but personally I prefer my Hacker and my Face to be two separate people...if only for the reason that you get a -2 penalty to hack the Johnson's commlink while you're talking and trying to get more money out of him. I firmly believe that ou need to maximize your original role before you branch out too much. You're being hired to be an exceptional hacker, not to be a half-assed face.

That being said, every character should have the Influence skill group, IMO, and branching out into a Face type of role would be a (relatively) small investment in points for your character.

So if you feel your hacking skills are good enough, then with a small investment, you can be a secondary face as well. If your game is getting more and more high powered, and you feel your primary hacking skills are falling behind the curve, then power up those skills.

I play a Technomancer in my game. He is averaging 14 dice for all matrix stuff (around 20 for matrix perception, and around 15 or so for cyber combat). Since I routinely spoof my lifestyle, I am finding that I have a ton of cash available. Since Karma is my big need, I hate to spend it on things that I can get some other way. I acquired the echo biowire, and have been systematically buying every active soft I can find. This does two things, one it spends the cash, and two in a pinch I can roll 7 or 8 dice for almost any skill I need. If I find that I am using it a lot, I buy the skill as a complex form, and don't need to sustain it any more. I also decided to take the Drone path for combat. I am suffering from an agility of 3 weapon skill of 3. I am not going to seriously affect the average combat in the slightest. Rather than waste Karma trying to become mediocre at best, I bought some drones. Sensor 6 coupled with my gunnery skill wire of 4 makes me better than average (though still not approaching the samurai teammates).

You never know who will be on your team on a given day. Branch out as much as possible. (And leave space for the hacker. A hacker can´t really reach the kind of matrix power your char has.)

Fight by proxy via drones is a good plan. I consider it best to support drone autopilots with sprite powers and intellect. Long-term you might want to get all the skills for jumping in, short-term Dodge and Perception are a must - as they are useful for the meat body, too.

And put one more vote down for Influence 1, please.

There are a lot of opportunities for the technomancer. If you have Unwired, I invite you to take a look at the Echos described in there. With them, technomancers can pull some impressive feats.

For example, there's an echo that let you force people into VR just by touching them, which can be very convenient when combined with a threaded Blackhammer+Psychotropic IC.
You can also get a combination of echoes that will let you learn new skills just by touching skillsofts.
You can also act as fast as a street samurai in the meat world WHILE doing matrix actions at the same time.

Here's my suggestions (it's what has worked for me).

First off, Influence = good. I agree. So work on that by all means.
Second, there's a MILLION things a Technomancer would spend Karma on. Here's a list of what I personally think is important for your team:

TacSoft. Buy it! Learn it as a CF via Emulation rules in Unwired. It is bar none one of THE most important things for the group's hacker/techno to have. You get +1 die per sensor in the group (or so, look it up) for damned near ALL tests (perception, firearms, dodge, ect...) up to a rating of the software (so a TacSoft rating 4 would be +4 dice with a full team and a drone or two). Get that!

Submersion: See if you can't talk your GM into allowing you to buy optional Echos per Submersion level (again, Unwired). For a pretty cheap cost (like 15 Karma or so) you get another Echo for each Submersion level you achieve. I would recommend taking Biowire (cause, DUH) and then Acceleration. Buy Acceleration again at Sub 2 and again as an optional Echo and you've got 4 IPs in meatspace from which to do whatever you want. I use this to hack from AR without dealing with Black Ice (only hurts you in VR).
If you don't like that idea, one of my favorite Echos is Skinlink. Hack a Maglock by touching it, who needs passkeys and your dice pool WILL be better.
Widgets. These are neat little things that you should try to get into using. They might seem Overpowered to your average GM, but remember they only last for blah time (per widget, again Unwired).

Money-wise, if you got Biowire, you'll have a TON of stuff to buy. Activesofts are great when learned with Biowire and then learned as a CF. They NEVER degrade. Ever.
Look into getting a kick ass lifestyle. There are a TON of neat options for the Technomancer with a customized Lifestyle (think Resonance Well + In Tune). Summon high ranking Sprites at home and bind them with almost no fading issues (thanks to bonuses).

I highly recommend TacSoft, influence and the submersion echos above all else though. If you don't know what to spend Karma/Money on, then you need to go buy Unwired. you'll be SCREAMING for more Nuyen and Karma.

Why would you install assault rifles in drones? The standard weapon mount can use LMGs as well. Also, unless you mod the weapon to accept ammo belts, which is impossible by RAW AFAIK, you are stuck with the normal ammunition capacity. Greater range and penetration is nothing to scoff at either. Safe targeting us a good idea.

Ask your GM What happens to the drone's Autosofts, if a Sprite is controlling it. Can it use them?

Agree on the gun part. Why use an AK when there's an Ingram White Knight?

As to the Autosoft question, as far as I can tell, the Sprite's Rating and skills provide the actual dice pool, so the autosofts are a waste of money for a Technomancer (unless he's actually using a pilot program, but what Technomancer would want to do that? Sprites are better and free at that...).

If I recall correctly, a Rating 6 Machine Sprite would roll 12 dice (basic) for all tests. If the drone is modded, then it would roll more, but it's just Rating x2 for tests with a Droned Machine Sprite (unless there's something in the book like Pilot = R+1 or something in which case it'd be R x2 +1 for the Piloting checks).

I've never seen a need for adding autosofts to a drone for a Technomancer. If an opponent Rigger/Hacker takes control of your drone, then you're giving him extra dice to hurt you with (unless I'm wrong). If you use Sprites, then he takes over the drone and is limited to what he personally has in his commlink. Upgrade the drone, yeah, but Techno's should never put cash into autosofts (again, unless I'm way mistaken).

No the Sprite's Dicepool is Rating. So the Rating 6 Sprit would have 6 in all actions. The Machine Sprite can have an Autosoft as an optional Power. Only on tests with this program does he get 2*Rating.

I'd rather spend some ¥ than risk drain and be limited in services. With enough money you can get a drone to a DP of 10 for all actions, unless I'm mistaken.

1) why put an assault rifle into a drone instead of a machinegun? cost. you can afford to throw away a drone that cost you a couple grand if the run goes south. you can even afford to lose two or three if it's really important. it will still be painful financially, but for almost as much performance you lose a lot less. the ak-97 is a dirt cheap gun that you put into a dirt cheap drone and use when you can't afford to send something more expensive. this is especially true if you're looking at ~3k for a drone as compared to 6k or more... meaning you can have twice as many.

2) machine sprites are really not all that when it comes to drone piloting until around rating 9. ideally, rating 12. you can only get 1 autosoft per 3 rating points. it is not even the least bit improbable that for a given drone you will want clearsight, targeting (once or twice, depending on if you have a second weapon), defense, maneuver, and the stealth one (can't recall it's name offhand). additionally, it is worth remembering that you may very well want to have multiple types of drones, and multiples of each type. it is completely possible to start with 3 steel lynxes, a few LEBD-1s, and a couple of manservant-1 drones. that's at least 3 different autosofts needed for maneuver, not to mention possible different weapons (you may want one that has a taser, one that has an SMG or LMG, for example) and then let's not forget that simply operating all of those drones at once with sprites only would need at least 7 sprites. and let's not forget that you also need sprites for sustaining threading, support operation, and possibly other powers. granted, if it's a purely rigger-focused TM, you'll probably be fine with nothing but machine sprites. but if you're a hacking TM, you're going to need different types of sprites, with different abilities, for different situations. not to mention, even if you have a whole bunch of machine sprites... registering a rating 12 or even a rating 9 sprite is no small feat. it will be difficult.
for all those reasons, it is my opinion that having autosofts at hand and even upgrading certain drones is not inherently a bad idea for a technomancer. especially since you have limited sprites available, and you may very well have a lot of money available for this project.

Well, the main reason was that a LMG is 1,500Y more - I plain didn't have the cash to equip all my drones with them during my first build. However, if I were going to defend the build as not completely goofy, I would point out that the IWK has the same fire modes, AP and damage output as the AK-97. The AK-97 is also 4R vs 12F - not a dealbreaker, but it is kind of cool that they're so easy to get. The ammo problem could be solved by upgrading to an ammo drum, or just manually popping a new magazine in between skirmishes - the AK is definitely an entry-level weapon. That said, even a 500y weapon on a drone is lethal.

The Knight does win on recoil compensation (if you're applying recoil to mounted weapons per the optional rule, as I am) with 5 points, meaning that you'd have much better odds that your full burst is going to saw a dude in half instead of just 'put the fear in him'. As you pointed out, if you intend to burn through a lot of ammo, the stock beltfeed is going to be a real advantage, and the better range category raises your 'no penalty' reach from 50m to 75m.

One more reason to go LMG would be grenade launchers - if you were to bolt an underbarrel grenade launcher onto your LMG, you could use the same Heavy Weapons autosoft for both systems.

Jaid reminded me about the LEBD-1. The LEBD-1 is a great drone as well, if you're looking for a more flexible base - the stock model includes a weapon mount and a mechanical arm, which is 5,500y in upgrades to the 2,000y stock Rotordrone - you get it for 4,500y. That means you're not just getting a deal on those mods, but you don't lose modification slots to them either.

and the shock cuffs, which imo could reasonably provide a built-in stun melee attack. i think it also has a bit more in a couple other areas (armor a little higher or something? too lazy to check =P )

@Targeting: Why would you need different Targeting Autosofts? IMHO the only drone weapons you would ever need is an LMG with the additional clip mod (for lethal/non-lethal ammo) and a grenade launcher (possibly as underbarrel weapon to the LMG). For that setup you only need Targeting (Heavy weapons). For the other softs it is true, you need one per drone type.

@Throwaway drones: If you go that route this is true. I prefer to build good drones to make sure they don't get blown up too often. Also left behind drones are additional evidence to capture you.

@RC: According to the Arsenal Errata the by the book optional rule applies to LMGs on small drones and HMGs on medium drones. Medium drones with LMgs should be fine, everything else is a house rule.

Regarding 'Expendable' drones, you have to accept that every drone is to some degree expendable - a 7k LEBD with Armor 9 and a cheap gun isn't really that much less survivable then a 20k LEBD with Armor 9 and lots of cool gear. If you know some tricks for making them more survivable, I'll be in the front row taking notes.

I looked up the recoil thing, and the Errata quote comes from this section:



Which means the Errata was just making the example more outrageous (I keep picturing a sneaker-sized Ferret with a Looney-Tunes style Vindicator Minigun popping out the top.) It's an optional rule anyway, so I don't see any reason to debate it, but the idea of Mass=RC appeals to me. I volunteered to abide by it with my PC. The stock RAW (or your alternative reading of the optional rule) would be that my Ares HVAR can fire a full-auto burst with a +11 DV with no penalty - that's a little overpowered, and I'd feel guilty about using it. It's all personal preference, at the end of the day.

Lots of interesting ideas in this thread. While biowire would be something amazing in a pinch, our GM told me that the more I use skillsofts the less karma I'll get, since the skills I'm using aren't technically mine. So while that would be useful, I'm still kind of wary.

I like fight-by-proxy, but expendable is not something I'd do, since in a large group money can get kind of tight and I'm super paranoid about leaving traces of any kind. So I'm thinking that a heavily modded LEBD-1 with plenty of armor, an LMG, and some upgraded sensors looks like the best bet for me, but instead of autosofts I'll try and find a resonance well where I can register machine sprites with less fading.

I was also thinking about raising my resonance, but I'm worried about those diminishing returns. What is everybody's opinion on raising resonance above 7? I've submerged 3 times, and is raising my resonance too worth it? Or would influence, and/or better complex forms be a better bet?

I'd ask the GM if the Street Sam gets less Karma if he uses looted weapons or ammo since technically they aren't his either Then I'd point to the Karma section of the book. Only one category actually talks about skills specifically and makes no distinction between learned or slotted skills. So the most you could lose is 1 Karma point.

resonance for a technomancer is actually a pretty good investment. not only does it improve your rolls for assorted resonance-based activities, it also improves your fading rolls, which is ultimately going to be the real limitation. i wouldn't necessarily place it as high priority (i would say submersion until you feel your submersion grade is high enough - don't forget to reduce costs with groups and ordeals - followed by the echoes you would like at 15 karma each (or, of course, if submersion is cheaper than 15 karma, keep doing that), followed by resonance, in terms of becoming better at technomancer stuff.

as far as branching out, grabbing at least some social skills strikes me as being a really, really good idea.

and i have to agree that getting less karma because you're using stuff that you paid for is just silly. would you get punished as a rigger if you actually use drones? does the hacker get punished for having botnets and malware and agents and IC to support him? does the magician get less karma when his spirits help? how about if someone uses combat drugs in desperate situations, do they lose the karma from that combat? it's a rule that arbitrarily punishes one behaviour while leaving all other related behaviours at full strength. i would argue that you're actually far more likely to improve by using a skillsoft than a magician would be likely to improve by having a spirit do something.

How much armour can you stick on an LEBD-1 without it being overloaded?

I'd suggest an Assault Rifle, like an AK-98, so that you have two different weapons loaded on it. Modify the gun to accept a Drum or Belt feed, buy the Autosoft for Grenade Launchers (and an Airburst Link/Smartgun accessory) and you're set.

Gives you flexibility.


And booshwah on that less karma thing! The point is the action, not how well you did it. Does he award karma after each successful roll or something? Then I don't see how that'd even apply.

Biowires cost karma enough. Getting the skillsoft costs quite a bit of nuyen too. Then to make them permanent you still have to expend more karma. It's unfair and I suggest bringing that up with your GM.

You only quoted the un-errataed lines after the correction it should say:
"For example it is possible to install a weapon mount with HMG on a compact drone with a body rating of 3 (humansized) and suffering no recoil effects from full auto fire, where a normal human would have trouble holding the weapon let alone successfully hitting anything."
Bod 2 drones cannot have any a weapon mount since it is a Standard Modification. Those can only go into medium drones and larger.

So a medium drone with a reinforced mount (and appropriate weapon) suffers recoil but gets 3 RC. Large drones and normal vehicles don't get recoil. It is simple and it works. BTW this rule only forces the rigger to spend a couple of ¥ to make the weapons recoilless.

@Ares HVAR: not more overpowered than a full burst form a White knight. It gets a lot better if you mod a real Assault Rifle like the Ares Alpha to High Velocity.

maximum armor for drones is 3xbod. in the case of the LEBD-1, i believe that makes it 9.

I read that section differently, errata or no. Here's the entire section on vehicle weapons and recoil, for clarity:



You're focusing on the details given in the example as a guideline for when the GM should apply the rule, while I am reading the example (in both cases) as simply a way to illustrate that an eight ounce bird cannot carry a three pound coconut. You're reading it as 'once this threshold is crossed' while I'm reading it as 'any time it sounds like an absurd amount of free recoil compensation'. Since it's an optional rule in the first place, I'm willing to just say we're both equally right and move on.



Something else you said I did want to get clarification on, though: "Bod 2 drones cannot have any weapon mount since it is a Standard Modification." I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that...the sections I find relating to potentially mounting a weapon on a small drone are:

"Arsenal, Pg 129: Vehicles have a slot maximum value of 4 or their Body Attribute, whichever is higher."
Which means that even a Bod 2 drone has enough slots to support almost any weapon mount (e.g. A normal-concealed-fixed-remote is 4 slots; normal-external-turret-remote is also 4.)

"Arsenal, Pg 146: As a general rule, one weapon mount can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of Body it has, rounded up."
The 'rounded up' bit means that you count 1, 2, and 3 all as 3, or one weapon max.

Finally, consider the Ares Sentinel "R" Series raildrone - it's a Body 2 unit that comes stock with a Weapon Mount.

What do you mean when you say 'Standard Modification'? I assume I'm missing something.



When you say 'make the weapon recoilless', how exactly are you doing that? In the examples we're throwing around, you're looking at a recoil penalty of -9 or -11, and maybe 3 points of drone Body-based RC. How do you generally get up to completely recoilless on your drones? I don't see the trick you're using in the book, but I bet it's in there.


I do appreciate any insight you can give me here - I'm still pretty new, and I know it's a complex rulesystem.

Again you quote the un-errataed version.



I just assume that a human-sized drone is more massive than a real human. As such it should not have problems with LMGs. Otherwise I agree. A cat sized drone should not be able to mount a LMG. Assault rifles, and regular rifles and shotguns should be impossible as well.

No I was missing something. I was under the impression that Bod 2 drones (cat-sized) where minidrones. Minidrones cannot have standard modifications (Arsenal p. 131). They are small drones however.

Woops my bad. I thought that the gyro-link had the same properties as the gyrostabilization unit, which it should since it is the same technology. I guess the developers just thought vehicles do not need RC.
On a human with a HV modded Ares Alpha however this works, too bad you can't mod the White Knight for HV. You can even halve the running modifier with Gas-Vent 3, Personalized Grip/Electronic Firing, Gyrostabilization Unit. On standard velocity HMG without special gimmicks you can even fire a full burst while running without any penalty if you add an underbarrel weight.

"Iz dis 'nuff Dakka, Boss?"
"Naa, we can neva have enuff Dakka! Now make it more shooty or stabby, ya runty squig!
Squig adds bayonet mount

Yo, Johnny's GM here.

My ruling on the karma loss for the skill and bio wires is more about the inherent nature of what karma is.

As according to the descriptions of both, characters who use it are essentially willingly becoming limited meat puppets when they use them, IMO. Becoming a temporary bunruku puppet is not good for the soul. I'm not talking huge amounts here either, it's only a little bit of karma loss from what the player would have gotten.

And now, I don't penalize for looting a gun or something, but excessive looting is also bad karma. The group picks the bodies over like vultures they lose a tiny bit of karma for it. They chop off all the cyber and sell the corpses to organleggers then they might lose a bit more.

It's just part of the style with witch I GM, but partly also an attempt to keep things somewhat sane for ME. We have eight players in our group and everyone shows up. If every player can ALSO be a sammie in addition to their regular role, then the amount of resistance I have to throw at them just to make things slightly challenging and interesting becomes simply absurd. It's a relatively small restriction that helps keep things more fun for the group as a whole.

and once again: how does it benefit the rigger's soul when he tells a drone to go do something? do you punish that player with lost karma? how about when a magician sends a spirit to go do something? clearly, the magician isn't doing that something, do you penalise the magician with lost karma? having cyberware is clearly much worse for you mystically speaking than having biowires. do you punish the street sam for having wired reflexes 2? do you punish the face for making use of contacts? after all, the face isn't doing the work themselves, they're having someone else do it. how is that going to affect the face in the slightest?

punishing people for acting within their specialty is just silly. if you're going to play it like that, then i guess everyone would be best off playing unarmed adepts (can't take cyberware, that's bad for your soul! and you can't play a magician, because only doing stuff yourself directly counts, and looting is bad for your soul, also). seems like a cheapshot to just nerf every archetype possible.

if you want to discourage looting, then do it within the system. they take the time to loot? guess what, the enemy can afford 10 times as many drones as you can. and there's also an HTRT on the way, because you just wasted a bunch of time looting a corpse to (if you're *lucky*) get 30% of the value of a few pistols/SMGs and commlinks (armor should take way longer, and isn't going to have much value when it's shot full of holes). enjoy your 500 bonus (split 8 ways), if you're even willing to spend the time selling them (you are making them actually arrange for a fence if they want to fence stuff, right? because that's how it works... you actually have to arrange a meeting with a fence. specifically, a fence who has the time to actually do something with the stuff you looted, which probably isn't worth much). not to mention the nuisance of dealing with tracking devices and such from the people you looted the gear off of.

also, having skillwires/biowires doesn't make you a street sam. and if it makes someone the equal of your group's street sam, then your group doesn't actually have a street sam, just some wannabe who claims to be one. pistols at 4 (no specialisation) will not cut it, especially not without a lot of stat/skill boosting 'ware to accompany it. and that ignores the fact that the street sam should also be good at stealth and dodging, most likely, plus damage soaking (for which you need a lot of gear and 'ware) and who knows what else? (probably he's also an unarmed/martial arts expert, which skillwires/biowires can't do, for example), and let's not forget that minor detail of edge (which, if you're using skillwires/biowires, are in a best case scenario going to cost a lot of nuyen to get even *limited* use of edge, assuming the technomancer somehow can actually afford as much edge as the samurai). but hey, let's not forget, the street sam should probably be good with automatics and heavy weaponry or at least thrown weaponry (for grenades) as well.

if your street sam is in danger of being rendered obsolete by skillwires... that's not a street sam. because if the player actually spent all their BP/karma on being a street sam, there is no way skillwires would come even *close* to replacing the character. skillwires can make you a passable second-stringer. they will not make you the equal of a specialist.

[edit: oh, and about the 'not a lot of karma lost' line... ummmm... how's your math? 1 karma subtracted from 8 (i mean, 1 karma is kinda the lowest amount you can subtract) is actually over a 10% difference. 1 karma from 3 (the low end of what we've been told you award) is an extremely large difference there. even a 4-6 karma run (a presumed middle ground, since easy is 3 and life-threatening is 7-8... all of which are incidentally already lower than the default rate) loses between 15 and 25% karma. imagine you're writing a test, and you got 66% and the guy next to you got 100%... that's not a small difference. even the difference between 75% and 100% is pretty big, and yes, even 90% vs 100% is a pretty visible difference (though both would be pretty good on a test). this isn't exactly a system where subtracting non-significant amounts of experience is possible. ]

Don't forget that Biowire is essentially useless, since you can't buy and use mundane active softs, unless you also buy another Echo (Emulation). That's 29 Karma down the drain to have rating two skillwires, woohoo.

I totally agree with Jaid.

Emulation is not an Echo. It's an alternate use of Threading. When you get Biowire, you can use Threading to emulate a skillsoft as a complex form (in fact, that's the ONLY way you can use Skillsofts). It does allow you to "buy" skills for cheap, except that you couldn't use Edge on the rolls.

The very fact that you can't use Edge on skillsofts makes them a severe gamble anyway (no safety net). There's ware that allows you to use Edge to reroll failures, of course (Skillwire Expert System, Augmentation p 42). I wouldn't penalize KARMA for using skillwires, since they are so limited. It's the Personafix chips that makes you a "meat puppet" anyway, which is clearly documented in various sourcebooks.

First off, I didn't say I thought it was fair either. I don't even like my own ruling on it and will likely do away with it before too long.

Right now though I have about 6 hours of time a week I can devote to planning missions and making NPCs, and general planning. I just don't have the time to scale everything to the team properly like I know I should, and I hate GMing completely on the fly. This and a few other little things I just let me keep a semblance of character ability without forcing anyone to do or not do anything.

If either of you have had experience GMing an 8 member team and would like to share your ideas about how to simplify scaling things to make a fun and challenging run with the amount of time I can commit, I could really use the input. If you do, please contact me via PM.

Ideally I don't want to do these things either, but for now these little tricks have saved me from ripping up hours worth of planning more then once already.

I'd appreciate it if we could just re-rail this thread a little bit and move it back to technomancer tips and tricks. Tagz is a good GM and I understand where he's coming from, but if you would like to argue about karma gains, etc. I'd appreciate it if you could make another thread or just keep it to PMs.

One thing I've noticed is that the skinlink echo is a pretty big waste of karma, unless your character for some reason is operating without a commlink. And let's be real, even technomancers have commlinks just to stay under the radar if nothing else. If the future 'trix works like the internet does today, you should be able to rout your connection through the commlink for when you need to hack something So why would you bother wasting 15 karma on skinlink when you can just get one for your commlink for some measly nuyen?

I've also just had my eyes opened to the importance of drone surveillance. Does anybody know how the autosoft optional CFs work for sprites? Do they get the autosoft at their rating, and is there a limit to the rating of an autosoft they can have? For instance, can a rating 7 sprite have a rating 7 autosoft, or is it limited to rating 6? Even then, does anybody know if there are rules for sensor ratings, and how many sensors you can cram into a microtapper bug or a spyfly?

Did you read the description? Here's Unwired p147: "A technomancer with this echo gains the ability to use his skin as connection to other devices, similar to an integral skinlink (p. 318, SR4). The technomancer can use this link to hack any device he touches, even if wireless signals are jammed. Note that the device does not need to have skinlink adaptation. Two technomancers with this echo may mentally communicate with each other simply by touching."

The important part is in bold, and you CAN'T do that with just a commlink. It is a powerful Echo, as it allows you to hack a lot of things that are supposedly "hack-proof" because they don't have a wireless adaptation. You can just touch an object, and it's yours for the taking. Many "offline" resources are protected only by the fact that they are disconnected from the Wireless Matrix, and Skinlink allows you to touch them to break into them. I once used this on my current technomancer character to hack into a helicopter that I was holding onto from the outside (don't ask) and take over the brains. It did not end well for anyone, but that's another story.

In fact, I use the Skinlink Echo nearly every run. It's so much easier to "reach out and touch someone", especially since most of the "secure" things that you need to hack are generally taken off the grid for safety. Not to mention shenanigans like taking over vehicles, taking over vending machines, etc. Maglocks are easily hacked without making a Hardware test to remove the casing (and risk an Anti-Tamper roll).

Autosofts are traditionally limited to a rating 4, maximum (p330, SR4 20th Anniversary Edition), just like Active Skillsofts. I'm not sure if Sprites are limited to the same rating in RAW, but in my game, they are capped at 4 as well.

Sensor packages can be modified. Look on the table of p334, SR4 20th Anniversary Edition for starters. Micro drones have 1 Capacity and 2 Signal, Minidrones have 3 Capacity and 3 Signal, Small Drones have 5 Capacity and 4 Signal, etc. There should be a similar table in the original SR4 book somewhere. The generic Sensor rating is also listed along with the drone (usually 1 to 3), or you can use the average of the ratings of all of the Sensors in the drone.

just as spirit and sprite skills are not limited at 6, sprite autosofts (for those few sprites that can actually get them) are not limited to 4.

and yeah, skinlink is actually pretty good for getting at stuff that you otherwise could not... especially for stuff that is slaved, which requires a direct physical connection to hack directly...

Fantastic. So your "solution" is to gimp anyone who chooses to play a TM and pick Biowire because it is "unbalancing" (in your view). Do you penalise magicians who can summon Task spirits and use just about any skill? Any character with skillwires?

Oh... you don't? I guess he should just make a troll voudoun shaman and get possessed by Force 8+ Great Spirits and go to town.

Go you.

- J.

PS: How in the hell does Biowire impose more time constraints as you as a GM?

as i understand it, the argument is that greater versatility for the players makes it harder for the GM to plan a challenging shadowrun.

Like I said, this is a thread about Technomancers, not how to award karma. Please take that elsewhere. Thank you.

The "few" include Machine Sprites, which are fairly common. Where in the rules does it say that Sprite autosofts are not limited to rating 4? They aren't skills OR attributes. They are complex forms that emulate a real world autosoft. While it does say "All skills and complex forms are possessed at a rating equal to the sprite's rating" (SR4 20th Anniversary edition, p 242), it doesn't say what happens if you possess an autosoft that is above the max rating of 4. Or a skill above the maximum rating of 7, for that matter. Would a drone be able to translate something that high? I mean, obviously you'd need a Pilot higher than 4 to do so (since program ratings are limited by the System/Pilot), but is there any hardware in the world that's designed to process an autosoft that goes above the acceptable limit of its firmware/hardware/whatever?

I'm wondering what the devs think about this particular conundrum. In our game, autosofts are capped to 4, even as a Complex Form by a Sprite.

Holy crap, that's incredible! Isolating a system from the network is usually the bulletproof system security measure - imagine telling drones to disable their radios for two minutes when they get a bad logon attempt, or something similar. Suddenly your Technomancer laughs at such mundane security, and hacks it anyway!

Remind me to start flying higher.

Again, Johnny, check out the Toys for Riggers link earlier in this thread for a good flyspy build. The short version is that minidrones like the flyspy have three sensor slots, and you can load any sensors you like in there. If all three are Rating 6, then the sensor package is Rating 6.

Well, considering that the Stealth program is Capped at 6 for normal access and 7 or so for Elite Cutting Edge Military Grade Programming, and yet my Technomancer generally runs into a node with no less than an Stealth rating of 12....I'd say the answer is fairly obvious. Sprites aren't Agents. They aren't limited to 4s or 6s. A Technomancer with a few grades of Submersion can summon a Sprite at rating 9 with little to no issues, giving it an effective dice pool of 18 to do what it's designed to do (i.e. drive a car). I see no issues with this personally.

As to the Karma vs. Biowire thing.... I'm sorry, but I also disagree. Here's why.

First the Technomancer has to Submerge, not an easy thing (or shouldn't be anyway)
Second, they need to spend MONEY to get the skillwire (assuming it's not pirated or whatever).
Third they need to Emulate the software (requiring a roll, which shouldn't be too hard, but we digress)
Fourth they are limited to their Submersion level, meaning that if they're level 1, then they can only learn level 1 (or at least USE level 1)
Next they need to spend Karma if they want to KEEP the CF on a permanent basis.

So a Technomancer using Biowire ends up costing them both NuYen AND Karma to use it, AND it's limited to their submersion level (which doesn't sound like it's going to be that high from what I can tell from your Karma awarding mentality).

A street sam using skillwires is MUCH easier than a Technomancer. AND cheaper. We're talking a HUGE Karma investment to be able to use them in the first place.

As to Skinlink, YES, I end up using it A LOT in my game. (our first game we had nobody with a maglock passkey and were stuck at the fucking door on a B&E job because of it. Now I have Skinlink and that's NEVER a problem). And it's not limited to maglocks either, With a bit of Unarmed (if that's your flavor) you can potentially shut down a street sam via TOUCH and a really easy dice roll (most cyber is a target 6 or 8 best case to hack, any technomancer worth his salt can do with his eyes closed).

You could still get regular skillwires implanted, which seems to be a far better deal than Biowire. Rating 4 skillwires cost one point of Resonance and 8000 , compared to 4 submersions.



Since I am also playing my first Technomancer ATM (primarily hacker, with some rigging for better real world performance), what echo would you guys take for the first submersion? Right now I'm considering:
- Skinlink, for the 101*10^x ways to drive my GM mad
- Widget crafing
- Overcloking, helps with both hacking and rigging
- Immersion, also because it allows Mind Over Machine later on

Any suggestions?

Well, it lets you use autosofts up to your submersion grade. So if you already have three other echoes because you've submerged three times already, if you take biowire in your fourth submersion you can use autosofts at rating 4. Alternatively, you could take biowire at the beginning, and use skillwires at higher ratings each time you submerge. And you'd have to play at least 18 karma to get back that 1 point of resonance (providing you're at 6), so I think biowire is definitely a better deal.

And for the echoes you're considering taking, it really depends on what you want to do. I like overclocking (4IPs) and advanced overclocking (5IPs) because I like the idea of being a horrifically precise and speedy hacker. Alternatively if you're going dronomancer for more real-world applications (also useful for surveilance, which you will probably need at some point, as well as fight-by-proxy things) immersion and mind over machine. Widget crafting is nifty, but they cause fading and dissapear within 8 hours, so unless you have access to a resonance well or have a ton of dice to resist fading, I am not a fan.

And now I do see how useful skinlink is. Waaaaaaant.



Dear god, rating 12? How do you manage that? I'm guessing either a combination of increased system and cerebral boosters, or just crazy threading?

huh... i take it you haven't read the description of the 'support operation' registered sprite service very closely, have you?

oh, and the threading rules, of course, but that probably won't get you all the way there.

Oh, I just assumed that the sprite would have to be in the node with you to do that, which would defeat the purpose. But now that I think about it, in the Netcat/Slamm-O! aside in the SR4 book the sprite doesn't have to be.

According to RAW, they do have to stay with you. Look at p241 SR4 20th Anniversary Edition:
"Sprites must remain with the technomancer. Sprites can be temporarily dismissed at any time and called back at a later point (within that 8-hour period); both requiring a Simple Action. Sprites can only access other nodes if they are accompanying or called by the techno-
mancer, or if they are sent on a remote task."
This being said, I think they mean the Sprite has to stay resident in the Technomancer's "home node" or living persona, and provide their services from there. Thus, unless your GM is pulling out their hair, most folks interpret this to mean that the Sprite isn't an entity that a remote node (anything you are connected to) can detect unless it's being sent on a remote task to that node (the next paragraph describes this).

Also note that Assist Operation (on the same page) only works if you have a registered sprite.

Actually I have. I have about the same time constraints on running a campaign too given I have a full time job and a 7 month old girl.

Tactics I use to focus my time:
- Take PLENTY of notes. I track core player stats so I can track strengths/weaknesses so if I have to improvise on the fly and create challenges, I can.
- Do a post-mortem of about an hour after every session.
- Create NPC, locations and subplot files I use to track various ideas and concepts.
- Use pre-generated modules (Ghost Cartels at present).

In keeping the game balanced and challenging I am a fan of applying time constraints on the PCs and clever use of red herrings and double crosses.

You will not that not one of these involves penalising a player for use of a RAW ability.

If I felt so strongly about that ability, I would have suggested either banning the ability outright, having a chat to the player and allowing the player to rebuild his character accordingly to the same total karma being mindful of the fact he might have invested significant time and effort in getting to that point.

- J.

the sprite must be in the same node as the technomancer, yes. however, a technomancer can easily be in multiple nodes anyways, just like any other persona. admittedly, only one will be active, but that doesn't mean you aren't there. if someone hit you with an attack program, you would take damage after all.