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PatB
I've got an idea for a Street Doc contact who happens to be a ghoul, and I'm looking for a picture that I can associate to him. Anyone has one to share ??

Thanks a bunch
Prime Mover
could google up a zombie pic in a pinch.
Headshot_Joe
This work?
PatB
QUOTE (Headshot_Joe @ Nov 27 2009, 02:58 PM) *

Great !!! Like it. Thanks
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Headshot_Joe @ Nov 27 2009, 02:58 PM) *
That's a picture of a Ghoul from Fallout 3 (I think that's Gob from Megaton). I think any picture of a Ghoul from Fallout 3 would work well. There are plenty of NPC Ghouls in Fallout 3 that you can talk to. There's even a Ghoul doctor in the Ghoul Underworld.
Mercer
I get a lot of my stuff from deviantart.com.


Vampiric Apothecary

Doctor of the Dead
Headshot_Joe
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Nov 27 2009, 12:04 PM) *
That's a picture of a Ghoul from Fallout 3 (I think that's Gob from Megaton). I think any picture of a Ghoul from Fallout 3 would work well. There are plenty of NPC Ghouls in Fallout 3 that you can talk to. There's even a Ghoul doctor in the Ghoul Underworld.

Yeah, but Doctor Barrows lacks a clipboard, and has blood on his shirt...makes him look more threatening, and less likely to be trusted...
Dahrken
Well, I guess the vast majority of his customers are ghouls too, or will be sooner or later...
Jack Kain
I actually think a ghoul street doc would be very likely to have had facial surgery and cybereyes so his ghoul condition would be more subtle. Would your runner really feel comfortable with a ghoul docter performing surgery (say for bullets) while your pasted out and sedated. Aside from the fear of having one of your organs eaten you'd be at a very high risk of infection.
Lok1 :)
On a related note, I am currently playing in a game where we have dealings with a ghoulish streetdoc called Docter Stone. He ran his bussiness out of a taco shop, after spending a week in his care one of my character developed a phobia of Taco's and Ghouls.
He's great though, sometimes he'll give you a cyberlimb at a discount if he gets to eat the original. We think he might be part of Tamanous as well as running his bussiness.
(Great if you need some ware dug out of a dead boddy)
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Nov 27 2009, 05:46 PM) *
I actually think a ghoul street doc would be very likely to have had facial surgery and cybereyes so his ghoul condition would be more subtle. Would your runner really feel comfortable with a ghoul docter performing surgery (say for bullets) while your pasted out and sedated. Aside from the fear of having one of your organs eaten you'd be at a very high risk of infection.


My first thought exactly. I would NEVER visit a doctor that has the potential to see me as his midnight snack.
Mercer
On the other hand, all street docs are compromised in some way (otherwise they'd just be called "docs"). You might be worried the ghouls is going to eat you, but the human could just as easily sell you for parts. If you trust a street doc enough to be laying on their table, either it's because of a personal or fiscal relationship (in which case, it doesn't matter what they are-- the devil you know is better than the devil you don't) or because you're simply out of options and bleeding to death on a Tuesday night.

I could see it playing out either way.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 27 2009, 07:08 PM) *
On the other hand, all street docs are compromised in some way (otherwise they'd just be called "docs"). You might be worried the ghouls is going to eat you, but the human could just as easily sell you for parts. If you trust a street doc enough to be laying on their table, either it's because of a personal or fiscal relationship (in which case, it doesn't matter what they are-- the devil you know is better than the devil you don't) or because you're simply out of options and bleeding to death on a Tuesday night.

I could see it playing out either way.


Even if you trust the ghoul to put everything back the way its suppose to be. All strains of HMHVV (among them the one that makes ghouls) are blood born. Would you really want someone with a blood born disease poking around your insides.
Tachi
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Nov 27 2009, 08:50 PM) *
Even if you trust the ghoul to put everything back the way its suppose to be. All strains of HMHVV (among them the one that makes ghouls) are blood born. Would you really want someone with a blood born disease poking around your insides.

Especially since the Kreiger (ghoul) strain is transmitted by contact. If he so much as broke a rubber glove...




(and yes, we all know that the reality of the Kreiger strain being contact vector ends in a world full of ghouls, lets not argue it yet again, people.)
Mercer
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Nov 28 2009, 03:50 AM) *
Even if you trust the ghoul to put everything back the way its suppose to be. All strains of HMHVV (among them the one that makes ghouls) are blood born. Would you really want someone with a blood born disease poking around your insides.


Hey, at least it's a blood borne disease you know about.

The point is, when it comes to people poking around in your insides, a street doc is rarely going to top the list. If I was seriously hurt, I'd want a John Hopkins motherfucker, I'd want to see diplomas from Harvard or U Penn. But if I'm going to a street doc, that train has already sailed. And if I'm hurt, I'm going to take what I can get.
Tsuul
"Oh, Business! Great, I'm staved."

"Finger lickin' good..."

"Mmmmm"

"We need more suction. Flexi-straw, stat!"

"It's my own cocktail of local with just a hint of cinnamon ...er, uh... -aminicain, yeah cinnamonaminicain. Bleeding edge stuff here..."

"Need a hand? Let's see what's in the fridge."

"Prop him on the table in the kitchen."

"We may need to go back in. I'm missing a fork. ... Kidding"

Mercer
"I get a little nervous when you start salivating, doc."

"I'm not going to eat you, you're the only customer I got that pays on time."
Stingray
QUOTE (Tachi @ Nov 28 2009, 06:30 AM) *
Especially since the Kreiger (ghoul) strain is transmitted by contact. If he so much as broke a rubber glove...




(and yes, we all know that the reality of the Kreiger strain being contact vector ends in a world full of ghouls, lets not argue it yet again, people.)

..give Doc. Ghoul a Infertile Infected- quality (Runner's Companion pg. 82) and problem is solved.. biggrin.gif
The Jake
QUOTE (PatB @ Nov 27 2009, 08:49 PM) *
I've got an idea for a Street Doc contact who happens to be a ghoul, and I'm looking for a picture that I can associate to him. Anyone has one to share ??

Thanks a bunch


Same here. I got a ghoul NPC street doc, biosculpted to look (relatively) normal.

- J.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stingray @ Nov 28 2009, 02:53 AM) *
..give Doc. Ghoul a Infertile Infected- quality (Runner's Companion pg. 82) and problem is solved.. biggrin.gif


Elegant Solution Indeed...

Keep the Faith
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Stingray @ Nov 28 2009, 05:53 AM) *
..give Doc. Ghoul a Infertile Infected- quality (Runner's Companion pg. 82) and problem is solved.. biggrin.gif
It's solved from a mechanics standpoint, but not solved from a roleplaying standpoint. People will still think he's infectious, even with ample evidence to the contrary, simply because he's a Ghoul. He can even have the equivalent training to understand and explain why he's not infectious, and people won't believe him. Because he's a Ghoul. It's just how (meta)human nature works.
Octopiii
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Nov 28 2009, 01:59 PM) *
It's solved from a mechanics standpoint, but not solved from a roleplaying standpoint. People will still think he's infectious, even with ample evidence to the contrary, simply because he's a Ghoul. He can even have the equivalent training to understand and explain why he's not infectious, and people won't believe him. Because he's a Ghoul. It's just how (meta)human nature works.


Which explains why he's a street doc and not a regular doc. He had to go to medschool at some point, and I doubt they allow ghouls in. In fact, such a character would probably bend over backwards to get a good reputation, simply because his condition makes him even less trusted than your normal unlicensed hack. He would likely be an NPC that would need PC help quite a bit, just to keep his infected ass from being summarily executed for the bounty on ghouls.
Mercer
I don't think there is a bounty on ghouls, although there was one mentioned for Quebec. (Who knows though, this is the sort of thing that changes every now and again.)

Octopii makes a good point; the guy could have been a very promising surgeon (the John Hopkins motherfucker I was referring to earlier), then he got scratched by the wrong Infected patient and there goes his practice and his license, his pretty fiance and his deluxe apartment in the sky. But he's still got a ton of skill ranks in Biotech.

He gets depressed, moves into the sewers and falls in with a bunch of ghouls who have an arrangement with a local gang-- they eat the bodies the gang needs them to get rid of, and in return the gang doesn't go into the ghoul tunnels with flamethrowers. Other than being the best ghoul in the world at chopping bodies up, and sewing the occasional hurt ghoul back together, the doctor thing doesn't come up very much.

Then one day, there's a bad fight in the barrens which is a good day for the ghouls. The gang drops off a pile of bodies and the ghoul doc-- now more of a chef-- starts taking them apart. Except one of the bodies, one of the gangers, he ain't quite dead yet. He still has a little bit of a heartbeat.

The training takes over. The ghoul remembers the oath he took. He might have squared it with his conscience to eat a dead body, but he can't end a life just to feed. The training takes over, and he patches the body up. He's working blind, but now he can see the patient's soul.

The body gets better. A couple of days later he walks out of the ghoul tunnels. Nobody can believe it, they think he's probably a ghoul, or a vampire, or a shedim, or a free spirit or a skinwalker or a space alien. Anything's more believable than "one of the ghouls patched me up". The gang chalks it up to one of those barrens miracles.

Except next time it's a bad day in the barrens, it's the gang leaders kid sister who gets dropped. He doesn't have many options, but he knows a place a miracle happened this one time. So he takes his sister down into those tunnels, and he says to the ghouls, "I know you know how to fix people. Fix her, or I'll make your world nothing but fire."

So the ghoul doc steps up, says, "I can help her."

Granted, I can buy the argument that no one would choose to go to a ghoul doc (except other ghouls), but I think that's missing the essential point that if you're going to a street doc, you're probably not choosing it. You're going to a street doc because you don't have anywhere else to go, because you're chock full of illegal cyberware and ER's have to report bullet wounds to the Star.

It's also worth noting that if you've already houseruled the infection rules for ghouls, this is even less of a factor.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 28 2009, 08:09 PM) *
I don't think there is a bounty on ghouls, although there was one mentioned for Quebec. (Who knows though, this is the sort of thing that changes every now and again.)
Yeah, the bounty on ghouls is only in very specific areas, and those areas probably have their own indigenous ghouls that hunters will go for. It certainly doesn't exist anymore in the UCAS or Seattle. This doesn't mean that ghouls could operate publicly or semi-publicly (I'm sure there are folks who hunt ghouls for fun rather than profit, mostly because there are no legal repercussions for doing so), but the bounty isn't going to be a big issue depending on where you run.

QUOTE
Granted, I can buy the argument that no one would choose to go to a ghoul doc (except other ghouls), but I think that's missing the essential point that if you're going to a street doc, you're probably not choosing it. You're going to a street doc because you don't have anywhere else to go, because you're chock full of illegal cyberware and ER's have to report bullet wounds to the Star.
Except that there are plenty of street docs, and the Sixth World even has mages with healing spells that work better than street docs. Part of being a shadowrunner is getting a reliable street doc contact, and it's not like there's absolutely no other choice in the matter (Street Docs are supposedly more common than MAGES, and we all know how many mages you run into in an average SR campaign).

ERs also don't have to report bullet wounds to the Star unless they are public hospitals in specific jurisdictions (laws vary according to region, just like the bounty listed above).

Look, it's an interesting NPC. There's a lot of depth you can plumb there. But you'll have to suspend a lot of disbelief to weave a story like that, or at least be able to explain the basic problems of the character. It would make sense that a Ghoul Street Doc would mostly treat other Ghouls. He might even catch some flak from Ghouls for "playing with the food".
Mercer
QUOTE
Except that there are plenty of street docs, and the Sixth World even has mages with healing spells that work better than street docs.


Yes, but.

I think suspension of disbelief to say that street docs are like oil change places-- if you don't like one you just go to the one across the street. They're illegal, or they're located in places where law don't go. It's all pretty shady. A reputable street doc is (almost) an oxymoron; if they were reputable, they wouldn't be street.

The Sixth World is a big place. I don't think a ghoul street doc is that big a stretch.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 28 2009, 08:06 PM) *
Yes, but.

I think suspension of disbelief to say that street docs are like oil change places-- if you don't like one you just go to the one across the street. They're illegal, or they're located in places where law don't go. It's all pretty shady. A reputable street doc is (almost) an oxymoron; if they were reputable, they wouldn't be street.

The Sixth World is a big place. I don't think a ghoul street doc is that big a stretch.
On the other hand, unless you are running in some obscure location devoid of street docs, I find it hard to believe that your players' collective doc options are so limited that you have to go to a ghoul for treatment. That's absurd. It would depend on the setting, though (Ghoul Docs in Asamando is par for the course!), and what kind of connections the runners have. Any runner with a Fixer (and traditionally, most runners have a good Fixer contact) in the city they are running should be able to get the name of a good non-Ghoul doc. If the fixer recommends a Ghoul doc, as a character I would probably flat out refuse initially (depending on background) and as a player I'd know that the GM was trying to foist a NPC onto us that he/she feels is interesting rather than the typical and practical choice.
Mercer
I think this is a case of either you can think of reasons to do it, or think of reasons not to do it.

This reminds me of the old "Yes, and" rule of improv. That is, when someone introduces something in an improv, the other people in the scene agree to the premise and then build on it. Table top isn't exactly improv, but it has improv elements and as a general rule (and hey, there are exceptions to every rule), I think it's better to think of reasons to do things than it is to think of reasons not to.

That is, if my character needs a doc and the GM (in the guise of the fixer NPC) points me to a ghoul, I can either make up reasons why my character is desperate enough to go through that door, or make reasons why I'm not. It doesn't cost me any more mental energy either way. The game just tends to be more interesting when it's about going through doors than it is when it's about closing them.
hahnsoo
Heh. As far as contrasting RPGs and improv, in RPGs, you have a real choice to say yes or no (at least in the RPGs that I've played), and the ability to slow down the flow of the game to explore the choices. For improv, in the meager experience that I've had in undergrad and high school, the flow is everything, and you can't just stop and shrug your shoulders for several minutes. There are some RPGs that explore this concept (like Dogs in the Vineyard, in which it works well), but Shadowrun isn't one of them. As a GM, you should be flexible enough for your players to say "No". "No" to accepting a run, "No" to seeing a ghoul doctor, whatever. But this is way way off-topic. nyahnyah.gif

I have a feeling this is a case of a GM making a throwaway NPC for single run, rather than a recurring character anyway.
Mercer
As a GM, you should be flexible enough to say "no".

As a player, you should be flexible enough to say "yes".

Ultimately, everything in the game falls under the heading of "shit we make up".
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 28 2009, 09:40 PM) *
As a GM, you should be flexible enough to say "no".

As a player, you should be flexible enough to say "yes".

Ultimately, everything in the game falls under the heading of "shit we make up".
But that doesn't mean we can't argue about it at length. This is, after all, Shadowrun and Dumpshock! Arguments about the viability of ghoul docs in the Sixth World are the norm and not the exception. *grin*
The Jake
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 01:09 AM) *
I don't think there is a bounty on ghouls, although there was one mentioned for Quebec. (Who knows though, this is the sort of thing that changes every now and again.)

Octopii makes a good point; the guy could have been a very promising surgeon (the John Hopkins motherfucker I was referring to earlier), then he got scratched by the wrong Infected patient and there goes his practice and his license, his pretty fiance and his deluxe apartment in the sky. But he's still got a ton of skill ranks in Biotech.

He gets depressed, moves into the sewers and falls in with a bunch of ghouls who have an arrangement with a local gang-- they eat the bodies the gang needs them to get rid of, and in return the gang doesn't go into the ghoul tunnels with flamethrowers. Other than being the best ghoul in the world at chopping bodies up, and sewing the occasional hurt ghoul back together, the doctor thing doesn't come up very much.

Then one day, there's a bad fight in the barrens which is a good day for the ghouls. The gang drops off a pile of bodies and the ghoul doc-- now more of a chef-- starts taking them apart. Except one of the bodies, one of the gangers, he ain't quite dead yet. He still has a little bit of a heartbeat.

The training takes over. The ghoul remembers the oath he took. He might have squared it with his conscience to eat a dead body, but he can't end a life just to feed. The training takes over, and he patches the body up. He's working blind, but now he can see the patient's soul.

The body gets better. A couple of days later he walks out of the ghoul tunnels. Nobody can believe it, they think he's probably a ghoul, or a vampire, or a shedim, or a free spirit or a skinwalker or a space alien. Anything's more believable than "one of the ghouls patched me up". The gang chalks it up to one of those barrens miracles.

Except next time it's a bad day in the barrens, it's the gang leaders kid sister who gets dropped. He doesn't have many options, but he knows a place a miracle happened this one time. So he takes his sister down into those tunnels, and he says to the ghouls, "I know you know how to fix people. Fix her, or I'll make your world nothing but fire."

So the ghoul doc steps up, says, "I can help her."

Granted, I can buy the argument that no one would choose to go to a ghoul doc (except other ghouls), but I think that's missing the essential point that if you're going to a street doc, you're probably not choosing it. You're going to a street doc because you don't have anywhere else to go, because you're chock full of illegal cyberware and ER's have to report bullet wounds to the Star.

It's also worth noting that if you've already houseruled the infection rules for ghouls, this is even less of a factor.


Similar backstory with my NPC. My NPC instead managed to setup a shadowclinic. Because he happened to have money, he was able to facilitate his migration somewhat easier - establishing a shadow clinic and a legit clinic together. Basically if you know who to chat to and what to ask you can get what you want. Basically he runs an upper class private clinic in Bellevue, with other docs running the public clinic, he runs the back. He gets a lot of business from shadowrunners and people wanting to avoid public scrutiny with their enhancements.

- J.
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 28 2009, 06:09 PM) *
You're going to a street doc because you don't have anywhere else to go, because you're chock full of illegal cyberware and ER's have to report bullet wounds to the Star.

Then go to DocWagon, they're on there own corp territory and aren't required to support !@#$! all they want is your nuyen, and while a contract is required for pickup services, there is no reason they wouldn't take a walk in if the nuyen is good.

QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 28 2009, 06:09 PM) *
It's also worth noting that if you've already houseruled the infection rules for ghouls, this is even less of a factor.


Doesn't take care of the RP factor. A GM could tell the players they will never be infected by HMHVV because it disrupt the gameplay to much, but a good roleplayer should still act like he's afraid of ghoulification.
Mercer
Yeah, afraid of ghoulification, afraid of being organlegged, afraid of having his cyberware stolen, afraid of waking up in a room full of cops... there's all sorts of things to be afraid of when you go to a street doc. Which is why I think someone would choose a ghoul they trusted over a human they didn't.

Who's to say the ghoul is trustworthy? Well, since we're making it all up anyway, we are.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 09:21 AM) *
Yeah, afraid of ghoulification, afraid of being organlegged, afraid of having his cyberware stolen, afraid of waking up in a room full of cops... there's all sorts of things to be afraid of when you go to a street doc. Which is why I think someone would choose a ghoul they trusted over a human they didn't.

Who's to say the ghoul is trustworthy? Well, since we're making it all up anyway, we are.



QFT...

Keep the Faith
Grinder
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Nov 29 2009, 01:29 AM) *
Yeah, the bounty on ghouls is only in very specific areas, and those areas probably have their own indigenous ghouls that hunters will go for. It certainly doesn't exist anymore in the UCAS or Seattle. This doesn't mean that ghouls could operate publicly or semi-publicly (I'm sure there are folks who hunt ghouls for fun rather than profit, mostly because there are no legal repercussions for doing so), but the bounty isn't going to be a big issue depending on where you run.

Except that there are plenty of street docs, and the Sixth World even has mages with healing spells that work better than street docs. Part of being a shadowrunner is getting a reliable street doc contact, and it's not like there's absolutely no other choice in the matter (Street Docs are supposedly more common than MAGES, and we all know how many mages you run into in an average SR campaign).


A street doc might offer a lower price for his service than a mage - and a ghoul street doc might even offer the lowest price.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 29 2009, 11:07 AM) *
A street doc might offer a lower price for his service than a mage - and a ghoul street doc might even offer the lowest price.



Always a bonus when money is tight...

Keep the Faith
Mercer
"Why do you keep going to that guy?"

"He only charges me half price since that time his finger came off inside me! I can't pass up a deal like that!"
hahnsoo
The obvious solution wasn't even mentioned by anyone. He could simply do all of his work behind a Valkyrie module and virtual interface. Valkyrie modules are actually quite cheap by RAW (2000 nuyen, 10 Avail). If the ghoul really is a "good doctor", I'd imagine he's also self-conscious about his condition and does not want to infect his patients, so he would keep his distance by his own volition.

Also, I just read in Running Wild that the Ghoul bounty DOES still exist in UCAS and CAS (1,500 nuyen baby!), but it's not enforced in many states anymore (I'd imagine that it would be a drain on state budgets).
Mercer
Bounties are back? Oy vey.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 05:28 PM) *
Bounties are back? Oy vey.
They never left, actually. They are the same bounties from before, but most UCAS jurisdictions don't enforce them.
Mercer
Previous editions, the only bounties I can recall were early (SR1 or maybe 2), and mentioned specifically Quebec as the only place that had bounties on ghouls. It's been a couple of years since I brought it up, but the old topic is here.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 08:06 PM) *
Previous editions, the only bounties I can recall were early (SR1 or maybe 2), and mentioned specifically Quebec as the only place that had bounties on ghouls. It's been a couple of years since I brought it up, but the old topic is here.
This is what it says in Running Wild p 63:"There are 35 countries in the world that recognize the Infected as something other than wild animals which need to be controlled. Ours (the CAS) is not one of those countries, and neither is the UCAS. Both still carry laws on the books establishing bounties for the Infected, though those laws are seldom enforced these days. Many Infected are eligible to acquire criminal SINs and live as second-class citizens, at the expense of being monitored 24 hours a day. Ghouls have made enormous headway in the UCAS in search of their civil rights, but technically they could still be killed for the bounty. This is beginning to change, as some groundbreaking legislation has been introduced in the UCAS Senate to strike down the bounties on ghouls and loup-garou and offer them a path to citizenship. Similar legislation is expected in the CAS sometime this year."

Also, the next page has a table that lists the numerical bounties on the Infected in the CAS and UCAS, both of which list ghouls as 1500 nuyen. *shrugs*
Mercer
I'm not disputing the text in Running Wild, I'm just saying that the bounties weren't always there. They might be written as always having been there, but in previous editions-- as near as I can tell-- the only bounty was in Quebec.

Speaking as someone who started playing SR in the mid-90's, mechanical changes are relatively easy to adopt. It's fluff changes that I find annoying.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mercer @ Nov 29 2009, 07:29 PM) *
I'm not disputing the text in Running Wild, I'm just saying that the bounties weren't always there. They might be written as always having been there, but in previous editions-- as near as I can tell-- the only bounty was in Quebec.

Speaking as someone who started playing SR in the mid-90's, mechanical changes are relatively easy to adopt. It's fluff changes that I find annoying.



I seem to recall cashing in on the bounty in Seattle in 2nd Edition... not sure if it was a conon thing or home campaign though...

Keep the Faith
Method
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