Lets say you are on a run, and for some reason you've fought some enemy drones-- but are not on any sort of time constraint (unlikely, I know). If they are simply disabled and not outright blown up, would a person skilled in mechanics and electronics be able to salvage some of the more expensive components to sell later? Are there any rules for this, or has anyone come across it in their game?

Also, say you are a rigger who is in combat versus some security drones on a run. If you manage to hack access to the drone.. can you just keep it? Even after the run? Assuming you do more than just spoof a command. Is this unlikely to happen?

Sure. Take their carcass with you, just like the bodies of all the cybers you've killed.

As for taking over the drone, remember to send it a deactivate command before jumping out and wipe its memory systems before taking it home. And pray it doesn't have a homing beacon on its own system.

Haha, awesome!

Enjoy your Stealth and Security RFID-tag ridden drones while you have them though.

Or Security RFID's which problably has. Most of the time, a drone carcass is just worth if it is the objective of the run, most of the time, taking it is just asking for problems.
Edit: Hah, neraph posted while I was reading another thread.

Is there a decent way to take care of the Stealth and Security RFID tags and such? I remember reading about an RFID Tag Eraser. Couldn't I bring one of those with me?

RFID Tag Erasers do not work on Security Tags, but you could look for them and remove them... functionally, they are -6 to the perception roll to locate... and using a Radio Scanner, you should be able to locate them anyway... Stealth tags are harder to locate (You need exact frequencies to locate), but are susceptible to erasure, as they are not security tags...

Surround them with a jamming signal until you have them where you want them (in a place with WI-FI inhibition preferrably), and then erase/remove the RFID's, change the Acess ID, and you have yourself a functional drone

Keep the Faith

RFIDs have a standard Signal rating of 0; that's a piece of cake to jam. A jammer set to rating 1 should cover it most of the time and not cause enough disruption to local data traffic to draw major attention. When you've got the carcass back at your workshop, you just spend plenty of time making sure you found them all.

Exactly...

Keep the Faith

Of course, this assumes that they don't have anti-handling charges set. It doesn't take a lot of explosives to ruin your weekend when your head is 6 inches from the charge.

My team is putting in rating seven WI-fi inhibiting paint around the inside of the back end of our truck. (the hacker and technomancer will have to ride up front or in another vehicle) So we can just throw stuff right in the back and drive off. The garage where we store the vehicle is also getting the same treatment.However going though going over every centimeter of a large size drone with a tag eraser would take many many hours, even if you programed a microdrone to carry the eraser and do the job. You'd probably have to strip a large drone down to the basic components to be sure you got to the stealth tag.

The pulse spell could easily burn out any RFID tags in the area but may damage the goods your trying to rip off.
Of course that may depend on where the GM puts a Stealth Tag on the object resistance test. If its below that of a drone the mage could burn out the chip and leave the drone unharmed.

Ah, the glories of the chop shop!

You could always just purchase a vehicle tag eraser that is immobile and part of your chop shop... hook it up and walla, tags (except security) are now gone...

Keep the Faith

The easiest way to deal with tags will always be magic. Its basically one giant easy button. Captured drones are also good if you have extra time for recon. As an example we had a week to scout a facility before hitting it so we downed a drone with some quick hacking, i put a sprite in it, and for a few days we enjoyed the fruits of our labor. We had so much info that we were able to do the run in record time and had enough extra time to get a load of pay data. I freaking love my sprites.

Better hope the enemy Rigger doesn't use Dead Man's Switches.

And how would those possibly do anything. First of all a deadman switch traditionally turns the device off once the human operator in this case the rigger is no longer in control. Like how on a boat the key is attached to the driver by a leash. If the drone shuts off when the rigger is knocked out that just makes stealing it easier if the rigger isn't around when the hacker or technomancer spoofs it ID. If its the kind that blows the drone up, well then it would blow up before we even got the chance to steel it, OR we'd have already spoofed the drone so now its under our control and the deadman switch is useless because the switch believes one of us is the owner. We'd have to steal the drone without spoofing the access ID, destroying it through combat damage while the Rigger is still conscious to do something about it. In which case I'd have to ask how we managed to steel it to begin with.

OK, Dead Man's Switches IRL tend to deactivate things. In Fiction, where Riggers live, they tend to blow things up. One way to implement that is to install a button on your account that says "Don't blow up for X hours". Another is "Don't blow up as long as you're connected to the Matrix", which would activate when you took it into the shielded van or garage.

I covered exploding deadman switches in my post, I just wanted to cover all my bases.

If you've spoofed ownership of the drone you'd have free access to its capabilities and could find and deactivate any deadman switch with ease. Such a task would be necessary for stealing any drone if you plan on keeping or selling it unless you plan to strip it for parts your going to have to spoof ownership wipe its memory and all that so it doesn't call up its original owner or execute an automated return command.

What you really meant was overly complicated trap designed to screw the players but realistically should have blown up in the riggers face a dozen times over before he even met the group. Which is basically the trap your describing. Most of the barrens are dead zones and jammers are cheap effective anti-rigger equipment. That kind of trap is almost as bad as the super villain who has the red self-destruction button in his lair. Any kind of automated self-destruct on a drone is asking for trouble. If a PC had such a deadman switch on his own drone he'd be very likely to blow his own drone up on accident and possibly himself along with it.

The best way is to have 20 or so stealth and security tags shoved all over your drone, the tags could be buried deep in the drone where tag scanner can't reach without taking it apart, the things have be brought with in a centimeter of the tag in order to burn it out. The larger the drone the more places to hide the tags and the more difficult to find them all. You could also program the security tags to say only be active a couple hours a day. Otherwise they wouldn't transmit. That mean the thief would have to be looking with his radio signal scanner at the right time to find it.

My group we really don't bother stealing large non-run devices like a drone it just take to much work to search every square centimeter to find all the tags. However guns, armor, clips of ammunition and other such goods are much easier to search thorough for tags and we could fence them in small batches.

well, that depends. the popular favorite is the direct AOE spell to destroy RFIDs, but this only works on RFIDS that you have LOS to.

now, *technically* it is entirely possible to have an indirect AOE spell with no element attached that targets only RFIDs (by which i mean, the rules don't specifically disallow it). however, the concept is so absurd that if your GM thinks about it at all i don't think it's likely to get past your GM at all... (and if you don't think it's absurd, what non-elemental damaging force are you conjuring that will target only RFIDs and nothing else? oh, and it also has to pass through the rest of the drone body if you're not going to take the entire thing apart, forgot that bit).

so, overall... i'm not particularly convinced direct combat spells (or indirect combat spells, for that matter) are the appropriate weapon... what you want is the *detection* spells, if you're going magic, (which will at least let you know if there's an RFID to be found, and possibly where, what it looks like, etc) otherwise, you want e-sensing as a technomancer or changeling (if you can reliably get 5 hits, that is). overall, it's not an easy thing to track down stealth RFIDs. security RFIDs should be easy to find, they just need a little extra work to destroy is all (you have to physically destroy them, can't use a tag eraser)

I dunno, wiring it to explode seems crude. Adding a line to the basic scripts to the effect of '...and if you ever lose signal from the Renraku wireless grid, reset Administrator access to the alternate ID only; return to base; consider anyone preventing you from accomplishing directives #1 and #2 to be hostile.'

It seems like having the drone take action if being jammed is pretty reasonable; drone-jacking has got to be pretty lucrative, and so I would expect some countermeasures. At the very least, I make sure everything I put into play has the Safe Fire system, for instance.

Heh...of course, you could just spoof a command to empty it's weapons into a fire hydrant and then wrassle it into your trunk once it's harmless. "What's it doing?" "...maybe the hydrant is possessed?"

Faraday Cage. Much cheaper

- J.

Not to mention if the GM says a RFID tag counts as a highly processed object like a drone your pulse spell could fry the drone to.

Pulse is a environmental Manipulation spell. The target is the environment like the spell ice sheet or mist. Anything in that changed environment is affected. So if you pulse the area a drone is in. Any tags it carries may be affected based on the object resistance test. It is not listed as a direct or indirect spell so it is neither. For example pulse effects radio and matrix connections despite those being invisible to the magician.

A range of LOS simply means you must be able to see the area the spell will be centered on, direct, indirect and environmental, tags determine if sight is required on those it effects

It's perfectly possible to build a system designed to keep someone from stealing a drone, perhaps a system to find out who is stealing your drones.

For example, a multi-system arming. One fairly obvious idea is the drone being moved by an outside force. This is pretty common for anti-theft systems. If it also can't get contact it starts some sort of timer and then at the end of this it does something.

Don't we have Wifi inhibiting paint in SR? Should be fairly easy to I don't know paint a tarp and wrap a drone with it. Or yes, use a low rating jammer.

If there are any protocols that would be triggered if the Drone lost connection to the matrix and so on, then take it as a GM plot device and roll with it. Unless the game's trying to be Grand Theft Drono does this really pop up that often?

Correct. The problem is that the only spells which require LOS solely at the center of the area are Indirect Combat Spells. By RAW all other spells will only affect those valid targets in LOS. This makes the Sterilize Spell pretty useless.

A tag zapper indirect spell would be a much better alternative. I don't see why you shouldn't allow that spell.

Wrong, Dakka Dakka no where in the rules is that stated as a blanket.
By your logic a barrier spell(mana or physical) wouldn't work on targets the mage can't see, and the pulse spell wouldn't affect radio or matrix connections despite it explicitly saying it does. Or a darkness spell would fail automatically when it made the magician unable to see the targets inside the darkness.

From street magic,
"Environmental Manipulation Spells affect the elements and physical properties of an area"

If the mage casts 'ice sheet' the environment of the area is covered in slippery ice. Everyone in there is affected, it doesn't matter if the mage sees them or not because the magic was directed at the environment it altered it. This is because the mage used magic to alter the environment not anyone with in the environment.
Pulse is no different it is an environmental spell. The target is the area within it manifests.

You misunderstand me. I'm talking about the target of the spell, not everything that may suffer effects.
The target of the barrier spell is the space where the barrier is to be placed. If the mage does not see that place he can't cast it there. Whether he sees people running into the barrier does not matter.

Same goes for the pulse spell. Its effect only takes place in the space the mage can see and is limited by the normal area restrictions (Sphere of Force m radius).

The target of the darkness and ice sheet spells are areas in space as well so the same rules apply. Invisible people will still slip on the ice but blinding the mage will effectively end the spell.

Lastly only visible targets are affected by all spells but indirect combat spells:
This means that the effective area of the Pulse spell is only that part of the Sphere (radius Force m) that the caster can see. Anything behind cover, but in the area is not affected.

An indricet combat spell version would be much more effective.

There's quite a few things wrong in your posts, but I just want to comment on one in particular.


Uhm, no. Sustaining a spell is not the same as spellcasting. You need to fulfill the Range (typically LOS) of a spell only when casting it. Once it's cast, it remains until you stop sustaining it regardless of where you're looking or where you go. You can cast Ice Sheet on a street in Seattle, then fly to Timbuktu. As long as you keep sustaining it, the effect will remain and anyone who comes into contact with it will be affected.

Don't believe me? Then explain how Invisibility works when you cast it on someone else?

You just contradicted yourself,
Pulse says shuts down matrix and radio activity in the area. yet those things can't be seen. Explain that.
Your little quote also does not say ONLY, simply all. For example if your friend is in melee with ten ghouls you could manaball the area however because you can see your friend you can't exclude him from the area because all visible targets are affected. That is what its talking about. If it meant only visible targets were affected then it say only.

If we take your quote of Area to mean what you say it means, then fireball would only affect targets the magician can see. But we know that is not true don't we. You could walk through a physical barrier spell by simply turning invisible. Once again we know this isn't true.

How can sheet of ice an area spell affect targets the mage can't see, yet pulse can't? they both manipulate the area. The thing about the darkness spell is it generates darkness in an area. The same is of ice sheet it generates slippery ice on the ground. No one was targeted other then the area. Now if someone happens to be in that area they'd be affected as a secondary matter. If you walk into a darkness spell's area your not a target of the spell you simply in the area the spell is active.

This is because an environmental spell targets the area and nothing else it changes the environment and the environment acts upon those its in. It is by nature an indirect spell but that term is only used for combat spells



Actually ice sheet isn't sustained at all, it creates ice over the ground that remains until it melts. Its instantaneous.

Then I'm even more bewildered by his statement. XD

Well you thought sheet of ice was a sustained spell so he could have to.

So does a HERF rifle or EMP grenade.

But electronics are easier to get than the hard parts, anyway.

@Dr. Funkenstein: You are absolutely right about sustaining spells, that was my bad. I should know better.
Actually the Pulse spell erases the tags in the area and fries other electronics. The emitted waves have nothing to do with it. But only those electronics in the area that the caster can see, can be affected. I know this makes the spell a lot less useful than you thought, but by RAW this is correct. More about that below.
Then I shall point you to an earlier passage on the same page:I know this sentence is missing an "only" as well but, if you interpret it in the way you did with the other passage, the concept of line of sight becomes meaningless.

That's only true because indirect combat spells are the exception to the rule. You cannot affect anyone you can't see with a manaball.
I never said that. The target of the barrier spell is a point in space. If the caster can't see that point he can't cast the spell there.

That is correct but besides the point. The actually affected area is not the sphere around a point in space, but only those parts of the sphere that the caster can see. If for example any spell but an Indirect Combat Spell is centered around a point on a wall, only any valid target in the area in front of the wall can be affected because anything behind it can't be seen and thus is not a valid target.

So is ANY ENVIRONMENTAL SPELL! they target a point in space not targets with in that space.
What part of environmental spells target a point in space are you unable to grasp

There's plenty of spells where you don't see what's being affected, only the location where they're being affected. Here's a quick list off the top of my head:

• Alter Temperature (how exactly do you "see" the temperature again?)
• Antidote (must have some good eyes to see the toxins in their bodies)
• Cure Disease (ditto)
• Detox (ditto)
• Detect Enemies (specifically detects hidden enemies preparing an ambush or surprise attack)
• Mana Barrier
• Mana Static
• Purge
• Sterilize (I personally can't see all of the bacteria, virii and other things affected by this spell)

The list just keeps going, too.

I'm not talking about what is affected in some way but about the target of the spell.

• Alter Temperature (how exactly do you "see" the temperature again?)
  You don't need to see the temperature, but the area which you want to affect. Anything that is behind a wall but within the Sphere of Force meters radius remains at exactly the same temperature.
• Antidote (must have some good eyes to see the toxins in their bodies)
  The target is not the toxin but the person that is affected by the toxin. IIRC this is a touch spell anyway, so LOS does not apply.
• Cure Disease (ditto)
  as above
• Detox (ditto)
  as above
• Detect Enemies (specifically detects hidden enemies preparing an ambush or surprise attack)
  Here the target is the person who is supposed to detect the enemies, not the enemies themselves. And it is a touch spell. If the enemies were the target of this spell, it would be pretty useless.
• Mana Barrier
  For the third time, anywhere the mage can see he can put the wall, but it won't extend beyond natural walls even if the spell would allow a larger barrier.
• Mana Static
  as above
• Purge
  Can't find this spell, so I can't comment. Please tell me where you found this spell.
• Sterilize (I personally can't see all of the bacteria, virii and other things affected by this spell)
  But you can see the surfaces where the germs may be on. Any surface/space you can't see will not be affected.

P.S. Can a moderator please cut this discussion to put in another thread. We got carried away and it has nothing to do with the original question.

Purge was a typo of Pulse.

You also just gave your own counter-arguments because Pulse works the same way as all of those spells do. Sterilize is effectively the biological version of it. Pulse affects an area, and all valid targets in that area are affected by it whether you can see it or not. If it was a targeted spell with which you had to specifically aim at the RFID tags (which it specifically states) or other electronics.

You're casting the spell on the area, not the RFID tags and electronics therein. Read the description of it again. "Pulse sends out a brief, highly-charged burst of electromagnetic energy." The spell basically duplicates a HERF Grenade or whatever it's called.

It does not work in practice: Indirect spells do not need LoS, but as any physical damage medium they cannot bypass a barrier without breaking through. If your tag is encased in something else (let's say the drone hull), then it is completely shielded from the spell that cannot damage the barrier.

You are right if the target (a point in space) is beyond the barrier. The rules neither say what happens to targets behind a barrier if you target a point in front of a barrier nor if an indirect combat spell with a restricted target can pass through barriers.

If Indirect combat spells with an area effect (blast, fireball, ball lightning etc.) did bloom from the center to the outer limit of the sphere, then they should get the chunky salsa rule, which they don't. As such I assume that once the targeted point is reached the whole area is uniformly affected by the damaging magic.

The vector the tags use to contact the outside world is the same vector used to fry them. No? In other words, if they were completely shielded, they couldn't do their jobs. So there has to be a way to get at them.

They are shielded from the spell only, because that spell has a restriction so that it can fry the RFID without frying the drone. My point is that the spider can use this restriction to his advantage.

But anyway, contrary to physical objects, electromagnetic waves have no problem penetrating through barriers without having to destroy them. Otherwise scanners would kill the patient The RFID does not need to be outside the drone to work. But the description of indirect combat spells is clear: they need a physical access to the target to work and kick off at the first barrier they encounter on their way.


Chunky salsa is not related to AoE, but to Blast effects. It does not work for a splash grenade, for example. Strangely, the Blast elemental effect is not stated as benefiting from this.

How about this then...

Just use an Indirect Elemental (Sound) damaging effect that only targets the RFID (Restricted Target)... by the rules, this will work, as ANYTHING within the area, regardless of Armor protections (this would include any of the interior of a drone or vehicle, and their occupants), Must resist the damage... even if you cannot actually perceive it... and since it is targeting ONLY RFID's, then the other sensitive equipment will remain undamaged...

In my mind, that should end the argument... Of course, you may not agree... but there it is...
In this case, you take a drone to a facility with a pit to house the drone/vehicle, you then encase the drone/vehicle in your modified RFID destroying spell (Take the Wreck Spell as an indicator of a restricted example) and there you go... viola, no more RFID tags...

Anyway...

Keep the Faith

I vaguely recall some discussion about this Visible-AoE; the end result that you just need to see the center, and have a clear path to it for elemental effects. Why?

Otherwise you just hold your fingers in front of your eyes so you can only see the people you want to hit.

I totally agree with you, Tymeaus Jalynsfein.

I cannot remember that this consensus was achieved.

Why shouldn't you be allowed to do that? There are no rules against it. Using glasses and an image link would be more stylish, but the finger could work as well.

It is always nice when you can get confirmation for an idea...
Glad to be of service there Dakka Dakka

Keep the Faith

Because it's ridiculous? If you use AoE spells you should be prepared to hit friendlies or use better tactics.

If I remember my vehicle repair rules correctly, repairing a vehicle damaged to Deadly damage costs about half the cost of the vehicle. That implies that half of the value of parts is still there in most cases (maybe not working perfectly, but well enough to work for six months until it's shot up again). So in my game, I allow people to take vehicles shot to D level and turn it into parts - providing up to 25% of the cost of parts for an IDENTICAL model vehicle. Two broken drones = 50% cost of parts (and I cap it there - there are still parts that need to be replaced regularly or are used up during the repair). This means if you had say five identical roto-drones, you could use two of them to largely defray the costs of repairing the third. Failing that, you can remove the weapons and stuff and after a brief visit to the gun shop, they'll be working fine (unless they were specifically targeted - the weapons are generally internal on drones, and as likely to be hit or damaged as the other bits).

If the drones are not fully broken down, of course this is a bonus. The problem here is tracking stuff. You can't properly demagnetize them without causing serious damage to sensitive components like sensors (but fortunately, most of the vehicle computers are still safe, being optical). So it would make more sense to stash them somewhere secure, leave them for a month and see if they draw any heat, then pull parts out slowly, flashing them for chips and such and selling them off that way. Alternatively, find a chop shop which will be better equiped to handle them.

You do run the risk of a deadman's switch - if disconnected from the Matrix, blow up. But you're not likely to see this on low-level drones. It hurts the owner more than it helps (a hiccup in service ruins the drone, and even a stolen drone may be recovered. A destroyed one helps no one.) If it's a high-value drone, I'd probably leave it alone. I know, it's good cash, but being greedy gets you in trouble. Don't steal stuff you couldn't afford to buy yourself.

Just as ridiculous as wearing flame resistant clothing, when you use a flamethrower, or adding the non-conductivity upgrade if you expect your opposition to use SnS or Stunbatons?
It is a smart idea, but I doubt it works as well as you think, since any change in who is visible is at least a Free Action and reassigning Counterspelling to your mates is as well. So either you won't be casting a lot or your mates will be defenseless at least temporarily.

Checking for a deadman's switch is easy; just jam for a few moments before packing it into your car.

Regular matrix access? Use jammers and ECCM to make sure any signals to the drone are routed through your systems and observe what it tries to do. Analyze and profit.

Here's why it's ridiculous: A Mage wearing AR contacts can program them to autopixelate their friends' images and poof - you'll never accidentally hit your friends with a spell again. That ability should cost more than 75¥.