Okay, I can see that, but I have a problem with the comparison here... If I want to shoot someone in the head and ignore their armor (they have no head armor) then Why would there be a greater penalty to that than just shooting them in the head... can you answer me that one... because it quickly becomes logically inconsistent... IF there is no armor on the head, my called shot using option 4 (lets give it a -4 to hit shall we) is easier than using option 1 (with that annoying -8 for the Armored Jacket)... this should be consistent, and yet it is not... on one of those shots (option 4), I will have to contend with armor (Soaks with Body + Armor), even though there is no armor protecting the head; on the other option, Same basic scenario remember, I will incur a penalty to hit the unarmored head, and not have to contend with the non-existent armor in the soak test (Body Only)... this is logically incompatible as in both cases, there is no armor protecting the head...

If you ONLY use option 4 for "incidental" secondary effects (I know, there is that word again) and then option 1 for actual targeting of the head for damage, you will never run into this inconsistency, the only time that it will become more difficult is when the target is actually wearing protective covering on the head itself... Thsi leads to better playability as then people will not game the system... the options will then stand out as tactical choices that are relevant...

You may not agree, but there it is...

Keep the Faith

You may not like it, and the rules may seem inconsistent to you (and they SHOULD!), but for what it's worth, that's what the rules say as written. They really didn't care about internal consistency when making the SR4 rules, at least for the Called Shots section. They were just trying to come up with nWoD equivalents of existing Shadowrun rules, and then paint it with a coat of "The GM's Discretion" so they didn't have to debug their text and mechanics. The devs weren't looking for an internally consistent and balanced game... they were trying to make an awkward retrofit work.

To flip it around, why should there be an absurd 11 dice pool penalty to bypass 11 points of armor (an easy to get value which doesn't protect the head) when a simple targeted unarmored headshot would suffice? Someone who is an expert at using a Rifle and has above average skill (4 + 4, so 8 base dice pool) could not achieve a headshot, even though someone of that skill level should be able to do it at least 25% of the time. This is against a NON-MOVING target, by the way. Not to mention Natural Armor, Mystic Armor, Dermal Plating, Dermal Sheathing, Troll's dermal calcifications, etc.

The problem isn't with the Called Shot rules. It's with the Armor rules, really. Abstracted Armor rules that don't take into account hit locations make for a very disjointed abstract system (especially for an abstract system that ALLOWS targeted hits). It's fine for Dungeons and Dragons and GURPS, I guess, but not fine in a game that wants to model modern firearms combat.

You know... both D&D and GURPS do "model modern firearms combat".

They do indeed...

The reason that they abstracted such rules in Shadowrun is for Speed of Play... sure, you could go out and make a simulationist approach to modern combat, but your game would rapidly grind to a halt in the minutia...

I have no problem with the scale that Shadowrun uses, and the framework provided works, as long as you remember that it is abstract... once you forget (or ignore) that fact, then you start to have problems as you have described... I am perfectly okay with taking that -11 to the target for the headshot due to the non-armor issue... because it is an abstraction... and that works for me...

What does not work for me is the attempts to find every loophole that can be discovered to thwart the rule system... which occurrs a great deal on Dumpshock, you have to admit... The rules are failry simple, and yet, for some reason, everyone tries to make them more complex than they really need to be...

The Called Shot argument is a good example... 4 perfectly explained options, and yet many people can not agree on exactly what they mean, because they are expecting more realism than is really there...

It's all good in the end, it is just sometimes annoying...

keep the Faith

They don't model it well (especially DnD/d20. I once got shot 10 times with an assault rifle without even being close to death in d20 Modern). Neither does SR4. One Roll Engine simulates firearms combat better than SR4, and it's a VASTLY simpler system.

Shooting at the head without using the "ignore armor" rule for called shots isn't a loophole. The GM still has to set a penalty, or the player has to propose a penalty for the GM to allow or veto. And I'm willing to bet that most GMs will allow you to do the headshot, but will still prorate some armor for the target because you didn't use the "bypass armor" portion of the called shot rules. If it's an abstraction, then there really can't be logical loopholes, because it's all academic. Besides, if you want to talk about ridiculous loopholes, let's talk about the ability to stack ridiculous amounts of armor dice (more than some drones and vehicles can have) without protecting a vital organ (the head). THAT is a loophole.

With this I am in agreement... But then again, many security organizations/job postings (Including the Militrary in some cases) have exceptional body armor and no head protection, even in real life, the reason is because it is not as easy as people think to pull of a headshot in actual combat... Most people are going to shoot for center mass to possibly obtain a hit, which most of the time is not that lethal...

Now, outsie of combat... headshots are a mite easier, depending upon the range and the awareness of the target in question... far enough away, with an oblivious target, and it is not quite that hard...

I like Shadowrun for their quick combat... there are other systems that are a lot more detailed (That take excessive timing to resolve) and there are systems that are far simpler (Which lack that something that makes it dull, at least to me)... Shadowrun has a good blend of playability, option and speed that I really like...

Personal Preference I know...

Keep the Faith...

But, with sufficient armor (headshot without helmet, in this case), it could be impossible for even an expert shot to do. Which is one reason why I believe the "Kitchen Sink -All Armor for - Armor Rating dice" is a worse abstract rule versus a "-Some Armor for -Some Dice". At the very least, in the second case, you can model a more appropriate modifier instead of setting up shots that are possible in real life but impossible to do in Shadowrun. In some absurd cases, you can even fail to hit someone in the head (or otherwise unarmored locations) at point blank range. At the very least, it should be modeled after the Cover modifiers.

But even then, Rules As Written, we are talking about your ideal case ("People should use the Armor modifier for called shots") and my ideal case ("People should use the specific effect for called shots"), and BOTH are abstractly supported by the rules. It's just a question of a GM's judgment... but something as silly as this should really not be placed as a burden on the GM's shoulders. I don't know about you, but when we play games, we like our rules to be consistent (and ideally they would be fair as well, but we all know that's not going to happen). Having a Full Cover modifier apply less penalty than a person standing out in the open at point blank range with 20+ armor isn't really consistent, but it's no more consistent than having two separate Called Shot rules that are contradictory to accomplish essentially the same action (hitting the god damn head).

Shadowrun really doesn't have quick combat. You may feel that it's quick due to familiarity (we can process combat relatively quickly at our table, with computer-assisted dice rolls as well, but we've been playing for almost 15 years), but there are faster systems with complex and fulfilling mechanics out there. The dice pool system slows tabletop games down, you have three dice rolls (rolling a whole dice pool each) to determine how much damage a particular attack will deal, and you have asynchronous turn resolution (in other words, you can act 1, 2, 3, 4, or even 5 times in a round, and this doesn't necessarily match up with how everyone else will resolve their actions). Each dice roll per attack has their own set of modifiers, too.

Here's an interesting angle on the Binding power - consider a Jurassic Park mission. This would be a fun game to run and play, and the science is all there - the dinos could be cloned, engineered, or chimerical. I don't think I could run it for my group, however, since the only real threat there would be the swarms of Compys and the Spitters. All the large dinos, including the T-Rex, would be locked down by the Earth Spirits. I love Raptors as much as the next guy, but Jurassic Park without a T-Rex is just sad. Anybody got any way to make this work?

Well, consider that most of the predator dinos are going to sneak up on the group. Binding is much less effective if the group starts in melee range of the dinos. You are certainly within your right as GM to have the t-rex able to make the check as a free/non action (He is after all massive, it won't be likely to slow him down any). As Dr. F pointed out, there is that line about "Feel free to adjust these guidelines as you like." Tell your group that you are going to make breaking free of binding a free action. Or perhaps have it be a complex action that is downgraded by net hits. So if you just barely win or lose it is complex. One net hit makes it a simple action, two is a free action, and 3+ is a non-action, the binding just wasn't strong enough to slow down such a strong/massive opponent.

Since there are no canon writeups for dinos, you could give them any qualities you wanted like astral hazing, magic resistance...

Of Course... All very good points...

As for quick combat... I would Place Shadowrun in the middle for ease of play and speed... yes, there are extremems on both ends... like I said earlier, I do like some complexity, but do not want the game to bog down too much either... Shadowrun works well for me in that regard...

Keep the Faith

one simple baddy is an easy kill in any system; in DND the players will flank and the rogue will own, in 7th sea someone will use Corps-à-corps and everyone else will then turn the baddie to sashimi. now as said before a smart and skilled baddy can be interesting.

Interesting Indeed, and often entertaining...

Keep the Faith