Um... Have you even seen the Device Rating chart on page 214, SR4? It clearly lists drones at DR 3, and Military Vehicles (which you can argue milspec drones are) at DR 5.

And Security at DR4. System is then equal to Pilot, and Response and Signal can be upgraded, although I'm not sure where the rules are for it.

I thought that only applied when using the special vehicle pursuit combat / tactical combat rules. If you jump into an anthroform drone and walk around with your buddies, and then get into a gunfight using normal combat rules, does the rule still apply? If you do crash, what happens?

If this is the case, I guess its a decent limitation to the IPs drone get, and creates a nice consequence for trying to grab an extra one.


So, as a side question, how many IPS would a Bio-Drone get if a rigger jumped into it? This requires the critter to have a Stirrup Interface, which basically is a MBW system, and comes in 3 different levels just like MBW. If the level 1 stirrup interface and the level 3 both do the same thing when you jump in, why blow the money (and the critter's essence) on level 3? (Assuming you DO plan on jumping in). Also, if you do give a critter with SI 1 a pilot program, does it get 3 IPs when controlled by the pilot program?

yes and those are a) guidelines and b) still not internally consistent with the rest of the rules (hence houserule territory) and c) sometimes actively insane (see retconning re: credsticks.) - the table results in inconsistent and contradictory rulings so I doubt many tables actually use it.


in any case, all drones in SR4 core have pilot 3(=system 3) so the only deviation that our table happens to take is that we don't immediately assume that all drones regardless of size and complexity have the same broadcast range.

all the rest of it is perfectly consistent with RAW and would have happily been solved by giving all drone entries an explicit device or response/signal rating.

Credstick just require suspension of disbelief. It would break part of the game if they could be hacked; it'd be ridiculous to use them as subprocessors. It works better if you don't look too closely; it's the only way you'll get lightweight cash to pay for illegal things.

credsticks require deviation from the table (as do other things) but that was pretty much the extent of my point: the table requires houseruling so we're still in houserule territory either way - while 3's are less ridiculous the idea that all drones would have firewalls of merely 3 strains credibility just as much as the idea that device rating 6 is somehow appropriate under basebook RAW. (or that unwired and arsenal don't bother to fix the issue for drones like they did for credsticks... )

Well, standard OS (Novatech Navi) also has only Firewall 3 out of the box, so...

It's a matter of perspective; a rating 3 hacking program is supposed to be fairly good already; the higher ratings are supposed to be exceptional.

Maybe it's a shame that the scale of availability of a lot of things is still Rating*2, so that you really have no reason not to buy the best right at the beginning.

I really see it as a matter of scale (or perspective if you will)... yes, 3's are good and 4's are very good... yes, I think that the availabilities are too low in a lot of cases for programs and other pieces of technology, because you are right, there really is no reason not to obtain the best you can get at chargen (or very soon after)... and in a lot of cases, they are fairly cheap as well (if you take into account the optional rules for Cracked Software and Custom Built Hardware)... which compounds the problem a bunch...

If you think about it though, the cost and availabilities keep the average man from ever obtaining these things... I mean really, 3000 Nuyen for system software (Rated 6) and then on top of that spending substantial amounts of money for top of the line hacking programs (6,000 Nuyen a pop)... 15 programs for hacking (main book only) and that is going to run you a cool 90,000 Nuyen by themselves... not to mention the 3,000+ Nuyen for the Common Programs... what computer nerd in their right mind is really spending that kind of money? Really...

The core of the issue is that Starting Characters can start out near maxed in Hacking if they so choose to do so, and then there are complaints that the systems are difficult to hack... Look at it this way... if the street hacker can start at the top of his league with 150,000 Nuyen (or less) or so, how much more sophisticated are the Megacorps going to be when they can spend 10's of Millions on the infrastructure alone?

Looking at The Guidelines for Device ratings, they are not all that bad...

Typical: Device Rating 3
Security: Device Rating 4
Military: Device Rating 5
SOTA: Device Rating 6
Bleeding Edge: Device Rating 7+

Keeping that in mind, then you look at the average operator (Hacker/Rigger) by Fluff...

Skill Comparisons of the Professional with "Typical" Gear/Equipment

Professional: Skill 3, Equipment Ratings 3, Programs 3 (Base DP of 6, not including Specializations)
Veteran: Skill 4, Equipment Ratings 3-4, Programs 3-4 (Base DP of 7-8, not including Specializations)
Expert: Skill 5, Equipment Ratings 4-5, Programs 4-5 (Base DP of 9-10, not including Specializations)
Elite: Skill 6, Equipment Ratings 5-6, Programs 5+ (Base DP of 11+, not including Specializations)

Seems to work out pretty well for me in my book...

The problem overall is that Beginning Shadowrunners can start at the Elite level in their Specialty if they so choose, which will throw the game out of whack in comparison to the Fluff (Hell you can actually start above that if you care to without too much difficulty)... And a LOT of people like to play that way... it is not a problem with the system, it is a problem with the way the game is approached...

If you are going to have Ice Cold Elite Professionals, expect the opposition to not stand up unless they too are of the same caliber...

I probably ranted there a bit Ascalaphus, but in the end I am agreeing that is indeed a matter of perspective...

Keep the Faith

I agree. I like things to start at "good, better than the common hacker, but not yet elite". Opposition will be a fair match; AAA's are usually out of reach in the beginning. Unless Mr. Johnson happens to have information about a backdoor into the system, perhaps...

However, mom & pop corps really only have security software in the 2-3 range, so a starting hacker can do some things quite well already.

There is one aspect of the device rating (and general hacking difficulty) that I keep having problems understanding.

By device rating, cars have a rating 3. Expensive cars would probably have a device rating of 4.
But, for an extra 3,000 Nuyen I can slap a Firewall 6 on there. And for 900 (less than 1,000) nuyen, I can slap in an analyze 6, optimize 3 (so it will run on the car, even if the car has rating 3.)
So why wouldn't everyone protect anything worth more than 40,000 nuyen with that sort of protection.

And wouldn't almost all corporate facilities have at least that much? It's dirt cheap.
While there is some fluff about firewall taking up resources, in fact Firewall is not even limited by system or response. And does not count against the programs running.

Yes, this shifts the odds of fast hacking. And is not what the fluff seems to say.
But I can not for the life of me build a mental model where that is not normal.

(I am deliberately staying away from the encrypted node debate. That is a whole different can of worms.)

Yours,
Joel

There almost needs to be varying costs for Firewall and System based on the kind of Node that is being run. Maybe Firewall is much more expensive for those big corporate mainframes.

Well... Those big mainframes and Nexi most probably have multiple nodes involved, so the cost for firewall will be incremental based upon the number of actual nodes that are involved...

Keep the faith

Still, Joel's right: it's just too easy to hack most Shadowrun off-the-rack devices, even for normal people, and the costs for increased protection are low enough as to suggest many more devices would have such increased protection.

I was thinking about this issue of 5 IPs vs. 3 and jumping in.

As per p. 245 from SR4a, one uses the Rigger's initiative and the drones attributes.

This would make me think one uses the response from the drone to determine the rigger's initiative and not the response from his commlink.

The logic then follows that you'd be stuck with 3 IPs, not 5.

How wrong am I?

Well, wrong. Response is not IPs. Also, IPs and initiative are pretty tied up together; if you use the rigger's initiative, it's logical to use the rigger's IPs. (And this is the case.)

I was up in the air about it but your comments made me re-evaluate. Of course response and initiative aren't the same, but matrix initiative is response+intuition+1(in hot VR). Generally, of course, response is your commlinks response (and thus, 5 IP for your matrix actions).

Since one uses the Drone's response for most tests, why wouldn't one use the drone's response for initiative? This is hypothetical, I agree that one should use their commlink's response for your matrix initiative, but it does make some sense that since one uses the drones stats for most everything when jumped in, why not use the drone's response for initiative? The flavor text is that you enbody the drone, using its sensors for your senses, etc.

I guess I'm trying to understand how jumping in works in terms of normal matrix topography. I was thinking of jumping in very similar to the way an agent uses the response of the node he's in for his matrix actions and initiative.

I agree with you though, RAW says use the rigger's initiative, and that's going to depend on his commlink.