anyone ever come up with stats for the wonderful battle rifles like the m1 garand and the m14? or perhaps british empire double rifles that were used on dangerous game like the lion, cape buffalo or elephants?

I know something similar to the british double rifles is in Arsenal. The M1 Garand is over 150 years old at this point and would be a museum piece. Ditto the m14, which while coming back in service now is still obsolete, and really has no place in SR4 outside a museum. Don't get me wrong, I especially love the M1 Garand, but this is 2070.

The book More Guns by BTRC had all the major past, present and future weapons modeled to Shadowrun 3 edition (or was it 2nd, I don't remember).

More than you need to know about boomsticks there.

Eh, my first inclination is to answer PCs requests with "Yes, but..." I'd certainly allow them to get ahold of one, but like you said, it's a museum piece and in SR ballistics research for a .30-06 cased ammo is going to raise a few eyebrows.

As to stats, I'd go with the Ruger 100 in the core. It's a semi auto sport rifle, which would be in the same vauge ballpark. The availability and price would have to be up to your discretion.

I think that's open to interpretation. IIRC SR4 only states that caseless ammo is more common. Old calibers die hard and isn't the .30-06 quite common in America as a hunting cartridge? I can easily imagine cased ammunition still being popular with parts of the hunting/sports shooting market, since I think loading your own ammo and experimenting with different charges and bullets would be easier than with caseless ammo. Maybe someone with more knowledge of firearms can comment on that, but wouldn't cased ammo also be preferable in break-action guns like those double rifles for sealing the breech?

The Ruger 100 might actually be a .30-06 rifle since SR doesn't mention calibers.

If you're going to make a battle rifle, the best starting point I've found is the "rifle" configuration of the Steyr AUG-CSL; 7/-1, 20 round clip, and better range than an assault rifle. You can also spend 4 mod points to make it SA/FA, and burn up a whole magazine to do suppressive fire. It doesn't need to be a museum piece, either... carrying around a ShrikeTech CT "Hard Fall" in 8.2x47mm Caseless means you've got a cutting-edge weapon that, in a balls-out firefight, fits into essentially the same niche a 120 year old battle rifle would in 2070.


The M1 Garand in particular I don't really see sticking around, but that's solely due to it having an obsolete and somewhat bizarre loading mechanism. The M1911 is coming up on its 100th birthday, and is still one of the most common designs of handgun made today. The one in my safe is from World War 1, still functions without issues, and I can buy ammo for it pretty much anywhere. There's a lot of small detail differences between what John Browning drew up in the early 1900s and what you can get built into a "racegun" 1911 now, but the basic working elements of the gun are the same.

The vast majority of Shadowrun's basic (i.e. non-Exotic) firearms are, in practical terms, identical to firearms you can buy today; once you get over the whole caseless ammo thing, the only ones that really stand out are the amphibious Water Carbine, the Ares Alpha's magic recoil-soaking chamber design, and the Thunderstruck rail gun. M14/AR-10/FAL/G3-type battle rifles all function pretty much the same way a 2070's M23 does... pick up the rifle, magazine goes in here, bolt cycles to load the round, bullet goes out the front, bolt cycles again, repeat ad emptium, ad reloadium, or add-more-bullets-to-'im. When people figure out that a particular cartridge/design/mechanism works, it sticks around.

The DSA-SA58C in my safe is a jet black carbine that's just a few years old. It's a muzzle-braked, rail-covered, foregripped and scoped monstrosity a buddy nicknamed the FrankenFAL, and most of the shooters I've met aren't able to guess what it started out as unless they spot the classic FAL carrying handle I just couldn't bear to remove. The bolt could be replaced with one from a half-century old Argentinian surplus rifle in about fifteen seconds. KelTec just started producing their RFB, which despite being a bullpup that spits the empties out the front end is still, in practical terms, the same type of rifle as the FAL that Saive and Vervier thought up 60 years ago; it can also share magazines with one. Bolt-action "sport rifles" exist in SR, and I'm willing to bet an awful lot of them have an action based on the late-1800s Mauser bolt, just like many built today.

The M4 and M16 rifles US troops carry today are descendants of the AR-15s that Stoner built over 50 years ago; some of the then-18-year-olds who carried them in Vietnam have grandchildren carrying the same basic rifle in Afghanistan. The M2HB and variants has been in use with the US military for about 75 years. The flintlock Land Pattern Musket was the standard issue rifle for the British Army for 116 years with the only significant modification being that they shortened the barrel a bit as time went on.

2070 is only about 60 years away. "No place outside a museum" just indicates a short attention span.

Perhaps there is a link to Raygun's work somewhere? Looks pretty decent job to me

Unless it's a replica. Muskets are even older but they still exist, mainly for things like reenactments. (Maybe the runners will be hired to kill someone at a WWII reenactment. Why not?) I statted out most of the WWII weapons in SR3 for my Shadowrun 1942 game, but I just kept them pretty close to the existing weapons in the book.

The weapon tables are by necessity pretty generic. I would just pick the closest one to what you are going for (the M1 I would treat as a Sport Rifle with an odd loading mechanism) and go with that.

the LeMat Revolver would be excelent for a Troll Char
http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/lemat.htm

HokaHey
Medicineman

musium only? shucks after coming up with how to do the m1 and m14 I looked at how to do a double rifle for large game; charging Elephants or trolls I'd like the same gun on the same premis 2 rounds better kill em. Unfortunetly it looked like SR3 did not have rules that would support such a rifle, at least in the custom rifle building section of cannon companion. So I was hopeing someone else though it would be a wonderful idea to have a short ranged rifle that can do base 14-16S with a fast followup round availible and found a way to do it.

Museum piece my ass, that thing still functions better then most rifles out there on the market today. The M1 and the M14 battle rifles form the bases for a good number of our sniper and designated marksman rifles, the SEALs still trust the M14 and they are damn picky about what they will use. The AK97 still looks and functions like its great great great great great grandfather did when it was conceived by a wounded officer, so is the AK97 not fit for the battlefield? The only draw back of the M14 is in automatic fire mode where it shoots all over the place, but nothing like heavy 7.62mm NATO to keep those slags hiding behind heavy cover. You would have to be a moron now and then to put off the M14 as a obsolete museum piece.

who would WANT to fire a m14 in full auto? that is a big round and a light gun to do more than one at a time. I know my groups go from all in the black when I fire at a sane rate to barely on the paper when I fire close to full auto; and I have no barrel rise either (I love springfield muzzle brakes) it just jumps around a fair amount.

Part of the problem with the M14 design is the amount of recoil... out of the "big 4" battle rifles (M14/FAL/G3/AR-10) only the G3 seems to kick harder, and I'm not sure why that is... might be layout, balance, weight distribution, or just the way the action works. But, as for who would want to fire it on full auto... there's a big difference between fighting at 100 yards and fighting inside a house.

In all honesty, the whole "is 5.56mm enough bullet for a combat weapon?" debate has been going on for decades, without conclusive evidence that it is, in fact, enough bullet. And that's before some humans goblinized into 10 foot tall, dermal-armored headstompers. I'm pretty sure battle rifles will still be in use in a lot of places.

And, again... if a player wants an M14, is it really such a big deal? It's a cinch to build a SA/FA, 20c, 7/-1 sport rifle... who cares if it's a modded AUG or an actual century-plus-old M14? On paper and with the dice, it'll be the same rifle.

Someone with Gremlins.

I'm not sure the Gremlins care how old the rifle is

Yeah, it shouldn't really matter. Again, guns are a pretty stable technology at this point. Barring the addition of a smartlink, an AUG should be no more vulnerable to Gremlins than an M14. The book says Gremlins applies to "moderately sophisticated devices (late 20th century technology or later)," so you could make a case for an age cut off, but it'd be a pretty thin one considering that many old designs are still in service. By the same logic things like the F-4 Phantom II or Harriers would be immune.

Actually, by that wording, I'd probably allow most of the firearms in the book to avoid the problems with Gremlins. A smartgun link would make them susceptible to it, but something like a scoped, vented M23 with a foregrip on it is still pretty similar to weapons people were knocking together back in the early 1900s.

Yeah, that was kind of my point.

Does anyone else remember the FN-HAR being a bigger hitter than the other assault rifles? I distinctly do, but I looked back through my stuff, and it has been just another assault rifle at least as far back as 2nd ed. Was it different in 1st ed?

I distinctly remember the FN-HAR being a repaint of the FN-FAL, just like the AK-97, the M-23 and Ingram Smartgun are repaints.

In 1st ed we had the FN HAR and the AK97/98, and the stats were...pretty much the same. Same damage, and weight (FN HAR is like 1.5 times the size of the AK97). AK's were naked though, with no accessories and the FN HAR had laser sight and recoil2. FN HAR (1200) cost about about double the AK97(700). I guess that most people took them on that strength alone, because adding those same features to an AK97 would add 950 for a total of 1650. Ahhhhh the year 2050. Many 1st ed. players had strong character concepts even before the Street Samurai Catalog, so FN HAR's kind of became ubiquitous with many merc type characters.

I repeat things sometimes. Sorry 'bout that

Raygun probably has some stuff. I think Snow_fox also has some early 20th centruy weapons done up. I can prod her to post here. As for old weapons in service, my husband and one brother do WW1 re-enactments and say people have working MG's and keep them in service with making/buying spare parts and not fully loading the mag's so they do not strain the springs.
For repo's I bet there are lots of movie props. The Brad Pitt WW2 film and band of Brothers have period weapons being fired and I doubt they are authentic MP40's.

Why wouldn't they be authentic MP40s? That war was only about 60 years ago, and there were over a million MP40s made. Hollywood's been making movies about that war since the days when it was still going on... there's probably a pretty good stockpile of surplus weapons floating around in various armorers lockups just waiting for another war movie to get made.

Do you want to risk Brad Pitt's face on metal fatigue on a nearly 70 year old weapon?
That and from my brother and husband I know they make repro machine gun weapons.

Good point.

I dont know, I have a rifle that is over a hundred years old and it works just fine... gotta clean it more and take care of it better, but it still fires, and pretty darn accurately too...

Keep the Faith

I think good designs get recycled.

Sure it might be caseless and made of newer materials but a good design is a good design. Like some one mentioned the 1911 pistol and ak47/ak98 designs. I find it hard to believe Glocks will be gone 60 years from now.

Isn't the M1 the basis for a Ruger designed carbine ranch gun? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_Police_Carbine
Now make it mostly composite materials and caseless.

There's also the Mini-14, which is very derivative of the M-14.

Bottom line, guns are a pretty stable technology and the basic designs are pretty derivative for a reason. Gas operation and rotating bolts just plain work. The Fubuki is really the only weapon in SR4 that really deviates from modern weapons, smartlink aside.


Personally, I don't fuss much about it if one of my players wants to adapt a specific weapon to the game. I may make them jump through more hoops to get their hands on an "antique" M-14 or M-14 derivative than if they had simply gone to Weapons World and bought something current, but at the end of the day, all they'd really be asking for is a sport or sniper rifle with little in the way of bells and whistles. If they got a hold of one that was converted into a designated marksman or sniper weapon, congratulations, you get the sniper rifle ranges, otherwise, you're looking at a sport rifle. Either way I'd just toss them a 7P -1AP damage code and call it good.

I asked my husband about these and he said some WW1 smg's are period, others, like Chauchats are remakes. The big, heavy metal is fine but the finer details, like springs, tend to break down.

He asked an ATF agent if they had a problem with guys who had the weapons and was told "No, you guys want to show off your toys and know what you are doing. We re afraid of the guy hiding in his basement with this stuff."

One of my Characters carries a .600 Nitro Express, we just used the Elehpant Gun out of the SR Book.

IRL i have a Peacemaker and a Sharps .50 that both fuction fine.

The .600 Gibbs Nitro Express is a sweet weapon...

Keep the Faith

It is fun to have
Standard Ammo Scary
APDS Ammo
Gell Rounds: I once killed a Gaurd with one of them
Recently Kovu bought one of the 2070 versons and Took the Short Barrel, and Folding Stock, eat your hart out Mad Max.

FYI Raygun's work is IMO the authoritas on this subject.

My 2

I haven't been able to get that link to work in a while, so that site is probably long dead.

However, some two years ago I worked with Raygun to get a PDF version of his site put together. I still have it, and I believe that Kagentenshi was hosting it on his web page (don't have the link handy).

I'm leaving for the holidays, but when I get back, I'd be more than happy to send the PDF of Raygun's site to anyone who is willing to post it.

Granted, much of the info is SR3, but it's pretty easy to convert. I know I've done it for my SR4 games.

Lets not forget about these guns effectivness against 2072 body armor.

That's correct (link doesn't work yet), but I understood from Raygun he was working on getting the site back up at the same url. Might take a month, but at least he was working on it (the quote is from a thread on the Dumpshock dev forum)

love that gun, been wanting to buy one.here

wildest non-normal gun I ever owned was a Mataba, too damn large to carry easily but maybe for a troll...

I assume you mean the Mateba Grifone?
They also make sane 4"-6" sized auto-revolvers.

A 6" revolver isn't really a good carry weapon for most folks, and the applications where I do see them carried (usually as back-country Bear Guns) are situations where my personal choice would be something along the lines of a short shotgun or a .45-70 carbine on a sling. YMMV, of course.

Actually it's based on a pistol version of the Metal Storm weapons.

Did they actually have a sidearm version of their stuff when SR4 hit? I thought they just had artillery pieces then. Anyway, swap "modern" with "conventional" and you get the idea. Metal Storm's been brought up roughly a billion times around here, tbh, although I've never really bothered looking into it much. I'm not really all that into guns.

Not sure, they had a pistol version on Future Weapons that I think was on before 4e came out but I have never seen it for sale. Not even on their website. It was probably just a prototype. It looked really bizarre with 4 barrels.

Uniquia 6 I think. 6" or 8" barrell. wonderfully accurate, amazing light in the hand because the action absorbed all the recoil but too honking big to carry concelled or even openely in a holster where it would be secure, and jambed up real easy at any grit.

All the early prototypes were 9mm, and the first attempt at a pre-production unit was the O'Dwyer VLE, a 4 barrel MS design with several large caliber, low velocity barrels, and several small caliber, high velocity barrels. A police officer would have the option of firing something like paintballs filled with pepper spray before escalating to real bullets.

It turned out that nobody showed much interest until the 40mm MS systems came out.