Hey there, another newbie question.
Why does Titanium Bone Lacing do so much damage? I mean, it's okay that it does more than a bog standard hand strike, but it's actually better than most melee weapons! Is there any justification for that?

It seems like they kept the old damage codes, which were a bit more balanced in past editions because reach (provided by most melee weapons) was so useful. It does seem a bit silly to me that it does so much dmage, and physcial damage to boot. Clubs do stun damage- so a steak wrapped around an alimumum baseball bat does stun, right? And yet aluminum bone lacing does (more) physcial damage? No mater how tough your bones are, punching something like a vehicle is gonna wreck the flesh on your hand before it does much to the vehicle.

There is reach in SR4 too. It may not be that much of a fight decider but it is still there.
In SR4 Clubs do Physical damage. As do cyberlimbs since SR4A.That you can no longer do Stun damage besides by subduing is more of a problem IMHO.
Yeah and you should have hit locations and more realistic diving rules etc. Those are just considerations to make the game more playable and fun at the expense of "realism".

BTW What Edition are you talking about?

Sorry, I was talking about SR4 and for my char it's a problem to NOT kill an opponent.

That you can do with bare hands as well. Just punch him until both Condition Monitors are full

My assumption is that it involves striking using the strong bone points - the places you see martial artists using to break boards. Hand-edges. Elbows. Palm-heels. Heels. Knees. Etc. If regular (trained) humans can break cinderblocks with unaugmented bones, without seriously damaging their skin, it makes perfect sense to me that an augmented one can break through tougher stuff the same way.

A finger jab with titanium laced bones would be pretty terrifying. The main reason people don't use their fingers in hand to hand combat is due to the ease of breaking them. Without that risk, they're very useful damage delivery systems. You can focus your energy and momentum into a very small point and do a lot of damage that way since the force is not going to be diffused as much as say a punch with a closed fist.

At Strength 9 you should be dealing what, 7~8 P? Oh, right - net hits.

Ask your GM to allow you to 'pull' your punches and strike with less then your maximum Strength. I can't see any logical or game balance reason why that wouldn't be allowed.

Alternately, you could talk to your GM about allowing you to use a Called Shot to deal Stun instead of Physical - this is bending the rules a little more, but if you can take a penalty to deal more damage with a Called Shot, it seems plausible that the reverse might be true.

Barring an agreeable GM, though, it looks like you may have built a guy who just rips people apart. As build errors go, that's pretty hilarious. I like that your guy gets more dangerous when he drops his gun.

Wow... Maybe I should consider that tactic with my next PhysAd. Then again, my friend had a physad, and if she didn't want to kill you, she'd use her shotgun. xD

Unless the PhysAd has bone lacing he can do stun damage anytime. he can even use most of the damage enhancing powers.

eh Ti bones wouldnt help too much without muscle to back it up in the fingers. the bone in most peoples fingers is plenty strong enough to survive a hefty blow, the problem most people have is not breaking them, but huring the connective tissue and muscles in them. I'm not sure what that should mean in game terms, just throwen it out there.

Have you considered just picking up some Shock Gloves? Those do stun, and use your unarmed skill, and since you're not really punching with them as much as just touchtazing them, I'm pretty sure the bone lacing won't affect those attacks.

That's actually the first explanation I've ever seen that makes sense, regarding the extra damage of bone lacing. I've broken bones in my hands during a fistfight (some of the thicker parts of the skull are not good things to punch), and now I'm imagining that same hit backed with metal. Might have changed the results a bit... skull fractures are hard to shake off. Also a good way to end up in jail...

just curious but which bones? the ones that line up with the big knuckles? or the 2 that line up with the little knuckles (the pinky and the one next to it)?

Actually, that's just what happened. This is my first venture into Shadowrun and I wanted a big strong Troll that knocks people out. What I got was a big strong Troll that CRUSHES PEOPLE'S HEADS. My GM and I agreed that Farmboy could have padded training gloves that would turn his hand damage into stun, but sometimes there's just noch enough time to put them on or I simply forget to do so.
Oh, and I do 10P + net hits...
I like the idea with the called shot! Let's see what my GM says to that.

You could also use shock gloves and leave them on (no fingerprints) or wear clothing with those ridiculous shock frills. Subdual is also an option as it always does Stun damage but this takes time.

Pulling punches is a good idea IMHO. Maybe -1 die for each +1 the bone lacing confers. If the bonus is reduced to 0 the whole damage is considered stun.

The first level of bone enhancements confers no bonus, but just turns damage into P.

Then maybe -1 per level of bone density/bone lacing?
So it can be -1 for cyberlimbs as well.

And on this note (and I apologize for the thread-jacking, but it seems like a good place to ask) why the heck are bone lacings F on availability? A smartlink system (only used for shooting guns) is R, but bone lacing, which a lot of people would have perfectly legal and legitimate uses for (athletes for example), is F????????

Second question, does the above question end with too many question marks?

Another idea would be to allow each net hit to either Add or Subtract a point of damage.

Probably doesn't go a far as you like, but it might be in the right direction.

(But I agree; just wear shock gloves. Touch (e) attacks ftw.)

I dunno about those shock gloves. A huge lumbering Troll should be punching, not shocking...

Why do athletes have perfectly legal and legitimate uses for crushing each other's bones?

You don't end up with accidental broken bones in sports, when you're impersonating Wolverine.

Just deaths from internal bleeding from all the Physical damage.

You mean from running into people with Bone Lacing? Yup. Pads of the future aren't meant to protect you; they are meant to protect others from you. (So actually not all that different than today.)

Don't forget: athletes of the future will be better, more restrained individuals. (Because punching a guy out will be assualt with a deadly weapon.)

Physical damage causing aside (which lets face it, is a game mechanic and not a reality thing as noted above) the lacing would protect your bones from being broken. Modern football players, soccer players, hockey players... they'd all love to get this stuff. That leaves aside the boxers, MMAers, etc. Not to mention those in professions where bone breaks are a frequent occurrence. Security companies, police forces, military personnel, hell, construction workers!

In 2072, Urban Brawl players, Combat Bike players... etc.

There are a lot of people that would love to not have such breakable bones. Yet their modification is illegal (you can't even get a license for it), while the combat targeting system that helps you shoot people better is available with a permit. Yes, you can punch someone to do physical damage. Sure, that makes sense. But a Club (which was noted above also does Physical damage) is - - availability. You can get a permit for an AK-97, or a FN-HAR assault rifle... but you can't get one for your bones???

Just seems a very odd design decision.

Conversely, sports of the future will be much less restrained. Urban Brawl, anyone?

The Smartlink makes sense to me - It's a dangerous place out there, and anybody who doesn't carry a pistol in Shadowrun is nuts...or a Mage. Lots of security-types that need it, and it's an extremely tried-and-true mod that's been around for 20 years. Most of the firearms lighter then a machine gun are legal with permits, and it looks like gunplay has been kind of accepted.

I do agree that bone lacing doesn't seem dangerous enough to set off security alerts. It's a defensive technology, and perfectly legal cyberarms do physical damage as well. I would rule in my game that the forbidden part is the implantation process; it's either proprietary or dangerous, and anyone outside of the megacorps that try to do it are in a lot of trouble. If a security scanner spots it, it will generate some attention, simply because it's so rare and it does peg you as a professionally combat-modded individual, but unless security was looking for a reason to hassle you I wouldn't make it a dealbreaker. Remember that most places in Shadowrun get to make their own judgement calls about what gets in the door - just because your Shuriken are legal, doesn't mean the bouncer is obliged to let you bring them in to the meet.

why is bone lacing illegal? SR is a dystopia so its govts are screwed up. So your body is not your temple but their property and they dont think its needed in their property.

While a great idea from a dystopian viewpoint, it doesn't appear to be true for citizens of (most) nations. Citizens still appear to have a (variable) number of rights. If goverments owned the people litterally, they could steal your organs legally for transplants.

well you did say most... otherwise I'd have to point at Aztlan. So are you suggesting that SR should not be a dystopian setting? Or just saying they havent established a legal ownership over a SINer's body?

To make my point a little more clear; it is a dystopian setting so laws don't have to quite make sense. Yes they have to somewhat logical, but keeping in mind the dystopian part isn't it ok if the legal/legislative system has some flaws? Shucks if I was writing the books I'd purposely put in such discrepencies.

What is even weirder is the fact that Bone Density Bioware isn't even Restricted, anyone can get without a permit if they have the nuyen, and it is just a lethal as Bone Lacing to the person you are punching.

Oh, it's dystopian (though moving towards future imperfect). Just not to the point that the goverment can round you up off the streets (in most countries) and steal your organs (at least as a legal citizen). That is pretty hardcore, and means people aren't considered people anymore. That is the corps stance, but they need people to work and spend money, so they have traditionally been fairly sneaky about it (humans are resources that must be managed). Now the theme in SR appears to be heading in the direction (at least here on Dumpshock) of corps not being complete masters, in the tradition of 3rd world dictators (if your people seriously won't listen to you, regardless of what you do to them, you aren't and can't rule).

With regards to Bonelacing specifically, Trigger makes an excellent point. Either it's a rather crazy "keep the little guy down" by legalizing Bioware Bone Density but disallowing Bone Lacing (which is relatively affordable to the little guy), or it's just a mistake in the books. Since you can get hardcore combat mods, like Wired Reflexes, alot easier than you can a simple thing like Bone Lacing (which has been shown to have many positive benefits, that people today would like to have), it probably is just an oversight on part of the mods.

I sure hope it doesnt go to future imperfect. that would eliminate alot of the charm.

isnt "keep the little guy down" kinda the thing for totalitarian regimes? I assume SR is supposed to at least be rampant with those right? I just hope noone starts argueing that SR govts and corps are really just trying to help and really do love their subjects.

The 5th metacarpals (the bone that line up with the pinky) in each hand, on seperate occasions, and the 4th metacarpal in my right hand on yet another occasion. They actually call this a "boxer's fracture"... they aren't large bones, and they are not well supported when you hit something hard with a glancing blow. I've also broken the 2nd metacarpal (lines up with the index finger) in my left hand, but that was from landing on it, not punching someone.

Breaking the radius and ulna in my left arm (maybe a centimeter proximal of the wrist) took putting my arm up reflexively and locking the elbow when an exterior wall of a building collapsed on me. The impact sheared the bones so cleanly that it looked like they'd been separated with a jigsaw... they then displaced outwards and back in a classic "silver fork" fracture, which also tore the nerves apart at the site, leaving me with no sensation and an incredibly painful burning feeling in that hand for six months while they regrew. Taking the hit to the arm also flung me clear of the wall, rather than having it crash down onto my head and back, so that's a break I'm willing to take in trade. The fractures were reduced under sedation without surgery, and two years of PT and taking up rowing got the ROM and strength back. Now I only remember the break when I'm doing something active, and realize the left side's a little stiff from bone scars.

If I could get bone lacing today, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I've had enough broken bones for one lifetime, thanks. In the meantime, the thought that bone lacing might be illegal because it's "combat 'ware," but you can buy an assault rifle with a permit does raise the question of who, exactly, is thinking these things up? The number of medicinal and practical uses for bone lacing are huge.

Wolverine scares people when he makes his angry face. An enterprising politician decided that it'd look good on his record if he pushed through a bill that made Wolverine illegal.


What, they're a legitimate reason for something to be arbitrarily banned. Politicians, that is.

It may also be a concealability issue. Shock gloves and hands are restricted whereas tasers are freely available.

But that doesn't account for Bone Density Bioware, which doesn't even need a permit, but allows you to deal as much damage as Titanium Bone Lacing at the top end.

True

However, if a bone *were* to break with bone lacing (any metal), I could see the metal bending and making healing damned near impossible without having the 'ware uninstalled and then re-installed later. Bone density doesn't have that problem, in my mind.... just my two

They probably use the same solution as dermal plating - repair nanites.

The Bone Density Bioware can be used for Medical Purposes.
Glass-Bones and the such. Healing broken Bones too.

So can Bone Lacing, and for much cheaper.

Yup yup. And its reasons like that which have lead to me houseruling the legality and availability of Bone Lacing. Done and done.

I can understand a certain degree of control over an item like this. But when one factors in that it is really a defensive item, as opposed to a "home defence" assault rifle (for which one can get a permit), it makes zero sense that it would be an illegal item.

Well, people today who have a certain degree of progress in martial arts are allways considered armed and under intent because their limbs are regarded as lethal weapons . . might be something like that . .
Still the question why this is not the case with bio bones . . probably because it's frigging impossible to really see that stuff, aside from cutting out a part of the bone or something similar . .

I've watched people punch through several 1" thick layers of cement blocks... and the only damage to their hands is a slight reddening of the skin where they made contact with the cement.

Hell, I've punched & broken boards (when I used to take martial arts) and the worst damage I got was a skinned knuckle when I punched the board wrong. Punching it right gives me no damage at all.

It is not hard to punch things harder than your skin and take no damage. It merely takes skill.

Not really. It's not any more different than the US' view of sex vice violence. Violence is okay in the US. Plenty of it on TV.

Heaven forbid if someone *might* be able to glimpse a boob or vagina.

The 5th world has screwed up priorities. Not a stretch to assume the 6th World has equally screwed up priorities.

I hadn't really notice that bone lacing is forbidden while bone density doesn't have any restriction (and has always the same availability value no mater the rating...
I could understand the reason for both being restricted (where only people who work in certain hazardous jobs or people with glass bone are allowed to have one. But forbidden? Yeah, ok, bone lacing would make a metal detector scream, but the 6th world has MAD scanners, ANY cyber would make one of those scream...

I really dislike those items where the Availability is not related to the Rating.

That said, uneven laws allowing cyber-this but not bioware-that and vice versa do fit the setting.



Does anyone have a neat flowchart that lists all the normal means of detecting stuff, and how hard everything is to find?

Not the Plastic, Kevlar and Ceramic Variants.