I'm already pretty generalized as it is. You'd have to give out some Karma if you wanted me to add it. Unless Vixen can add it to her new character looks like we'll be out.
Edit: Looks like we've got a pilot. Vixen was posted just as I was posting.
Full Version: Northern Gateway: smuggling, hunting
1. Are we going to be expected to fly some kind of aircraft beyond the capacities of the built in pilot?
2. Wow that was fast on the character... I think... how long ago did you start? I need to stop getting distracted and finish up my questions. One of them turned into a virtual novel and is already a full page and only about halfway done.
3. I think you messed up your essence costs on you're ware somewhere. You put tailored pheromones down as .2 essence and then a total bioware essence cost of .4 Not sure why you doubled it (Guessing you switched from R2 to R1 and forgot to adjust essence).
4. I shouldn't have gotten RW, now I want to make an animal adept or something similar
2. Wow that was fast on the character... I think... how long ago did you start? I need to stop getting distracted and finish up my questions. One of them turned into a virtual novel and is already a full page and only about halfway done.
3. I think you messed up your essence costs on you're ware somewhere. You put tailored pheromones down as .2 essence and then a total bioware essence cost of .4 Not sure why you doubled it (Guessing you switched from R2 to R1 and forgot to adjust essence).
4. I shouldn't have gotten RW, now I want to make an animal adept or something similar
After getting RW myself, I so wanted to Warform out the dogs for JD but I just couldn't work out the cash.
Don't worry about size, we can just strap him to the outside of the vehicle and de-ice him later.
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Jan 7 2010, 02:39 AM) 
After getting RW myself, I so wanted to Warform out the dogs for JD but I just couldn't work out the cash.
Really? Base dog is only 100 nuyen. Warform makes him 150 and each genemod thing you add only costs you an extra 30 nuyen. Seems like it'd be worth it to me if only to get that bonus to unarmed combat.
Also, why do you have them marked out as against instinct training? Basic pack training is basic, tracking is advanced, and hunting I would figure is anywhere from basic to maybe advanced, but most likely closer to basic (Is mostly just a form of fetch) or am I missreading what they are trained to do?
They are trained to the point that they will track prey and will immediately come back when called. I wanted them trained to resist attacking certain targets that they track or to be able to differentiate when a combatant is too tough or dangerous. I am using the training for combat training and not attacking threats. Remember JD is a paranormal critter hunter. I want the dogs trained to the hilt to track these big nasties but not attack because they would get wiped out.
Warforming these dogs would add at the minimum of 1000Y just to Warform tham then another 1000 for ever 50Y worth of qualities added. Yeah I could reduce it to one dog but I just like the idea of pack training.
Warforming these dogs would add at the minimum of 1000Y just to Warform tham then another 1000 for ever 50Y worth of qualities added. Yeah I could reduce it to one dog but I just like the idea of pack training.
Warform is 50% of base cost. Base cost of a dog is 100 nuyen. Warform qualities are 30% of base cost, so warform costs 50 nuyen and each warform quality costs 30 nuyen.
Remember that it says base cost. Training isn't included in base cost.
Remember that it says base cost. Training isn't included in base cost.
Yes but you then take the cost of the animal, which to my reading means those cost associated with making it a warform and use that with mulitpliers to find the final cost for the product. The way I see it is.
1. Determine cost of animal, includes base cost plus any additional warform or chimeric abilities.
2. Mulitply that figure by training values to determine actual cost.
That is my reading. Please prove me wrong. I would Warform the dogs in a heartbeat if you can provide me with a book reference stating otherwise. I will spend some time tonight rereading the rules myself. If I find that I am wrong then I want to let Pbagarth know now that I plan on doing some minor tweaks to my character's gear to breed these dogs better.
1. Determine cost of animal, includes base cost plus any additional warform or chimeric abilities.
2. Mulitply that figure by training values to determine actual cost.
That is my reading. Please prove me wrong. I would Warform the dogs in a heartbeat if you can provide me with a book reference stating otherwise. I will spend some time tonight rereading the rules myself. If I find that I am wrong then I want to let Pbagarth know now that I plan on doing some minor tweaks to my character's gear to breed these dogs better.
QUOTE
To calculate the trained price, multiply
the base cost of the critter by the training level
multiplier and then by the Willpower multiplier.
the base cost of the critter by the training level
multiplier and then by the Willpower multiplier.
[quote = "page 27"]Costs for Warforms are equal to double the base creature’s
cost plus 30 percent per genetic modification.[/quote
So, the costs for warforms are equal to double the base cost of the creature. And to calculate the trained price you multiply the base cost by the multipliers. So, there is a fairly distinct difference between how much something costs and its base cost on which things like training are based.
So, as I read it, the Total Cost of any creature is going to be (Base + (Base for warformed) + (base * .3 per warformed modification) + (Base*difficulty*willpower)). So, in short the Base is a constant and nothing ever changes it. Instead things change how much the final product costs, which doesn't affect how much other things (like training) cost.
Oh, and Basic Pack training is something that must be done separately, it is a trick on its own. Advanced Pack training however is an integral part of any other training for the whole pack and doesn't cost any extra multipliers.
OK I agree with the base cost. That was the wording that hadn't clicked. Like I said I wanted to be proven wrong. Now another thing that has me thinking and I will look into this myself I am just putting it out there. Is with you wording about training, are you saying that you believe that you must pay an additional cost to have pack training?
The way I am remembering (<-Focus Here) is that Basic Pack training is a Basic level of training for dogs, a animal that naturally forms packs. Since the dogs in question are trained to Against instinct level they are already trained to a level that exceeds Basic so it could include pack training at no additional costs. Am I missing anything here?
The way I am remembering (<-Focus Here) is that Basic Pack training is a Basic level of training for dogs, a animal that naturally forms packs. Since the dogs in question are trained to Against instinct level they are already trained to a level that exceeds Basic so it could include pack training at no additional costs. Am I missing anything here?
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Jan 7 2010, 10:57 PM)
OK I agree with the base cost. That was the wording that hadn't clicked. Like I said I wanted to be proven wrong. Now another thing that has me thinking and I will look into this myself I am just putting it out there. Is with you wording about training, are you saying that you believe that you must pay an additional cost to have pack training?
The way I am remembering (<-Focus Here) is that Basic Pack training is a Basic level of training for dogs, a animal that naturally forms packs. Since the dogs in question are trained to Against instinct level they are already trained to a level that exceeds Basic so it could include pack training at no additional costs. Am I missing anything here?
The way I am remembering (<-Focus Here) is that Basic Pack training is a Basic level of training for dogs, a animal that naturally forms packs. Since the dogs in question are trained to Against instinct level they are already trained to a level that exceeds Basic so it could include pack training at no additional costs. Am I missing anything here?
Well, what you've done is combine several things into one broad training. You've combined the pack training (Basic complexity for pack animals like dogs, and theoretically but not actually stated as a requirement for advanced pack training), tracking (advanced complexity for dogs) and "Don't attack a particular target." (which is basically a heel trick and thus basic).
So you have three separate tricks, one of which is going to be 100*7*2=1400 and the other two of which are going to be 100*2*2=400 for a total cost of 2200.
As an added benefit you can run the tracking trick with advanced pack training (By virtue of having done the basic pack training), which means that the dogs will all get a +3 bonus (Based on the size of the pack) on tracking and can do aid another on tracking tests (with each one getting the bonus). So you'd basically be rolling Int 3 + Tracking 2 + Keen Smell 2 (That's a guess) + Advanced Pack Training 3 = 10 dice, with two of the dogs rolling that and providing their hits as a DP bonus to the third dog, which should net you a total DP of around 16 or so on the actual tracking test.
It is somewhat confusing but important to remember that basic pack training is a trick that must be taught in order to get a group of animals to work together (Even animals that would naturally pack up need to be giving time to get used to each other and establish an alpha and such, and the training represents this with the handler picking the alpha and making sure the right animals are included in the group), while Advanced Pack Training is a training technique that teaches all the animals in a pack at the same time (sorta) and thus both speeds up the training (Which is why it doesn't cost extra) and gives them the ability to work together exceptionally well.
Oh, and warforming the dogs for increased int and tracking skill can easily add 4 dice to their individual tracking scores by increasing their int and tracking skill by two each. Also keep in mind that for moderate training (100*5*2=1000 extra nuyen each) you can increase a skill by 1 point. If tracking is their thing, it may be worthwhile, though you should already be throwing around 20 dice with your dogs aiding each other or throw 3 sets of 14ish dice and hope that one of them gets lucky.
OK I think I am following you here. But I have one thing on which we differ. By using the sidebar for buying pre-trained animals it states the cost of an animal trained up to a certain level. I see no wording saying that each "trick" must be purchased seperately.
Hmm... it does kinda seem that you're correct. I just figured that was the cost for each individual trick that you wanted the pet taught. Otherwise of course you can simply get X level of training and say that the pet is trained to do every trick of up to X complexity. This seems slightly off to me as buying a pet that is simply trained to shake is going to be less expensive than one that can shake, fetch, is housebroken, heel, stay, sit, and do a handful of other tricks.
If you're right though, it makes things generally alot cheaper for CG buying of extra cool pets. Do keep in mind though that none of the tricks they know (They will know individual tricks and not some big package thing like you have) are above advanced, and so you should be using the 7x cost multiplier instead of the 10x one (Unless you're including Combat Training with gunfire or not defending themselves or something similar, which you might be)
Also keep in mind that if you're interpretation is correct, then you can have all of their skills trained as much as you want for free because moderate training would be included in the 'package deal' reading. I figured it was something more like "Training an animal to do a trick of X complexity costs Y." and took that to be both an idea of how much to charge for a trained pet, as well as how much to charge for getting training for your pet.
Like I said though, you're interpretation does seem to be right by RAW, especially since the two examples had the final cost being only the multiplied cost instead of the multiplied cost + the base cost like I was figuring it out as.
If you're right though, it makes things generally alot cheaper for CG buying of extra cool pets. Do keep in mind though that none of the tricks they know (They will know individual tricks and not some big package thing like you have) are above advanced, and so you should be using the 7x cost multiplier instead of the 10x one (Unless you're including Combat Training with gunfire or not defending themselves or something similar, which you might be)
Also keep in mind that if you're interpretation is correct, then you can have all of their skills trained as much as you want for free because moderate training would be included in the 'package deal' reading. I figured it was something more like "Training an animal to do a trick of X complexity costs Y." and took that to be both an idea of how much to charge for a trained pet, as well as how much to charge for getting training for your pet.
Like I said though, you're interpretation does seem to be right by RAW, especially since the two examples had the final cost being only the multiplied cost instead of the multiplied cost + the base cost like I was figuring it out as.
I'm not saying I don't have the same misgivings that you do. I'm just trying to make sure my interpretaion is the closest to a consenus so I am accurate as possible when paying for the dogs. And as hunting dogs I am including Combat training with firearms.
Yeah, so if you're reading is right (Which it seems to be from what is written, but seems a bit off based on what you could do with it), the dogs would cost 2000 each and have basically any tricks you want them to have. Warforming them would still cost a pittance though... which once again seems a bit odd, but as I showed, is very much what RAW says.
I think we are kinda abusing the scale though with the dogs. Ar 100Y each a lot can be done for a pittance. Now take something like a Fenrir Wolf and warform it and give it the same level of training. That gets REAL expensive real fast.
I think it's time I piped in on the warform dog issue. I am hesitant to see warforms come in with JD unless, ravensoracle, you can give me a good reason why JD would have that done to his dogs. It's a massive retooling and twisting of an animal for one who is an Animal Lover (in his Lifestyle).
I was thinking not of genetic manipulation as more to the proper breeding lines. These dogs are 100% natural only of high breeding stock hense the extra cost.
Edit: Of course I can just leave them as is. Dice pools are still up there as Karoline pointed out.
Edit: Of course I can just leave them as is. Dice pools are still up there as Karoline pointed out.
Warform is something that happens pre-birth and in fact is the rough equivalent of a purebred dog. You can't warform a critter after birth because it is a genetic thing (I mean I guess you could get a genetweak, but that would likely be absurdly expensive compared to just getting a new animal). You also can't warform a paracritter because you can't mess with their genetics directly, you can't clone them, and they haven't been around long enough to create a good purebred sort of line (Dogs have been around for millennia and are plentiful for large breeding programs)
Edit: Oh, and the animal lover quality on his lifestyle is a reference to his landlord, not himself.
Edit: Oh, and the animal lover quality on his lifestyle is a reference to his landlord, not himself.
It doesn't matter anyway. I'm trying to overtweak the character. Guess I am just too excited about getting this game going.
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Jan 8 2010, 03:47 PM)
It doesn't matter anyway. I'm trying to overtweak the character. Guess I am just too excited about getting this game going.
If you are that excited, it might help to ... you know ... do it on your own once before the game starts. 
Alright -finally- got done with my 20 questions. The backstory took a bit longer than I expected. So, a few very minor changes to her CS. Changed her levels of different languages, changed one knowledge skill, and swapped a point of willpower to Strength. Also changed sensitive neural structure to big regret (Should make plenty of sense from the 20 questions.)
CS:
20 Questions: (Warning: 5 pages long)
CS:
[ Spoiler ]
20 Questions: (Warning: 5 pages long)
[ Spoiler ]
OK, I've got some reading for the weekend. I'll get back to all of you soon.
Alright, gang! Thanks for the marvelous writeups and character descriptions. I appreciate the work you all put into your PCs. Please give all of your characters 4 Karma points (not to be spent yet) for the effort you have expended in creating a rich background and source of hooks for me. We are really close to the opening chapter now.
Foxx, I have to give Vixen one more Karma point because you took Pilot Aircraft Skill and Gremlins Negative Quality and an EDG of 1. You know I won't be able to resist testing that combo!
There are a few points to consider for each of the characters:
Vixen: (Foxx)
She has Québec Politics Knowledge Skill, but I don't see in her bio that she has spent any time there, or is particularly interested in that country. How or why would she have this knowledge?
In her living space description, the garage is located under the house, where "she works on her weapons". Is this meant to be an armorer type of place, in which case I don't see the Skill or tools. If it's just strip and assemble, clean, and store, then I understand.
Foxx, could you flesh out the contacts besides Col. Mustard? Particulalry since Vixen is the de facto face of the group. The bartender, which if he ends up being in New Liskeard, would be really good for Vixen in the game intro.
Longshot: (Karoline)
I assume your Climate Adaptation is Arctic.
I'm not sure exactly where Longshot lives and where her contacts are based. I don't think she is in Ottawa any more, is she? This ties into her Local Geography Knowledge Skill. Where? Please let me know.
Old Wolf: (Trigger)
Given his background, I wonder why French isn't his Native tongue, and English at 3? I wouldn't require (though would have fun with) the occasional accented dialogue.
Think about it.
Could you localize the Smuggling Routes (eg. UCAS - Québec) a bit, please? Wilderness Refuges... maybe restrict to 'boreal forest'?
I'm not sure how I could believably poke at Old Wolf's Negative Quality of Nano Intolerance. If you are wedded to this Quality I will have to be very creative.
Is there something else that would work for you?
JD: (ravensoracle)
JD lives "45 minutes outside the nearest city". Toronto (where your fixer, Twist, is based) would probably be not a good choice, as 45 minutes from it would still be too built up for JD. How about Sudbury, or better yet North Bay?
Foxx, I have to give Vixen one more Karma point because you took Pilot Aircraft Skill and Gremlins Negative Quality and an EDG of 1. You know I won't be able to resist testing that combo!
There are a few points to consider for each of the characters:
Vixen: (Foxx)
She has Québec Politics Knowledge Skill, but I don't see in her bio that she has spent any time there, or is particularly interested in that country. How or why would she have this knowledge?
In her living space description, the garage is located under the house, where "she works on her weapons". Is this meant to be an armorer type of place, in which case I don't see the Skill or tools. If it's just strip and assemble, clean, and store, then I understand.
Foxx, could you flesh out the contacts besides Col. Mustard? Particulalry since Vixen is the de facto face of the group. The bartender, which if he ends up being in New Liskeard, would be really good for Vixen in the game intro.
Longshot: (Karoline)
I assume your Climate Adaptation is Arctic.
I'm not sure exactly where Longshot lives and where her contacts are based. I don't think she is in Ottawa any more, is she? This ties into her Local Geography Knowledge Skill. Where? Please let me know.
Old Wolf: (Trigger)
Given his background, I wonder why French isn't his Native tongue, and English at 3? I wouldn't require (though would have fun with) the occasional accented dialogue.
Think about it.Could you localize the Smuggling Routes (eg. UCAS - Québec) a bit, please? Wilderness Refuges... maybe restrict to 'boreal forest'?
I'm not sure how I could believably poke at Old Wolf's Negative Quality of Nano Intolerance. If you are wedded to this Quality I will have to be very creative.
Is there something else that would work for you?JD: (ravensoracle)
JD lives "45 minutes outside the nearest city". Toronto (where your fixer, Twist, is based) would probably be not a good choice, as 45 minutes from it would still be too built up for JD. How about Sudbury, or better yet North Bay?
A cabin somewhere remote around North Bay would work out just fine. I was just thinking of a place off the beaten path.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 13 2010, 01:41 AM)
Old Wolf: (Trigger)
Given his background, I wonder why French isn't his Native tongue, and English at 3? I wouldn't require (though would have fun with) the occasional accented dialogue. Think about it.
Could you localize the Smuggling Routes (eg. UCAS - Québec) a bit, please? Wilderness Refuges... maybe restrict to 'boreal forest'?
I'm not sure how I could believably poke at Old Wolf's Negative Quality of Nano Intolerance. If you are wedded to this Quality I will have to be very creative. Is there something else that would work for you?
Given his background, I wonder why French isn't his Native tongue, and English at 3? I wouldn't require (though would have fun with) the occasional accented dialogue.
Think about it.Could you localize the Smuggling Routes (eg. UCAS - Québec) a bit, please? Wilderness Refuges... maybe restrict to 'boreal forest'?
I'm not sure how I could believably poke at Old Wolf's Negative Quality of Nano Intolerance. If you are wedded to this Quality I will have to be very creative.
Is there something else that would work for you?Alright, so I have changed a few things around on my sheet again for this one.
Firstly, I dropped my Edge to 2 to free up some points. I spent 5 of those to buy the quality Bilingual, making Elyas fluent in both French and English, raising his knowledge of Algonquian, refining the parameters of those other knowledge skills, and taking Whittling as a knowledge skill. I turned Nano-Intolerance into a Mild Addiction to Betel. I raised my weapon focus to Force 2, and changed some of my equipment a little (getting a smart pack, an aztechnology crawler with olfactory sensors, and changing his armor from a Armor Jacket to a Lined Coat and Half Suit FFBA combo).
Here is the new sheet:
[ Spoiler ]
She uses the area in her garage to strip and clean her weapons gear. On the Quebec Politics I've broken it down to three extra knowledge skills to round her out her social chameleon skills. Also fleshed out her contacts.
[ Spoiler ]
Yes, arctic of course Forgot to specify that.
She lives a bit NW of JD actually, in that area called Timiskaming Unorganized, East Part. It's fairly close to the Indian Reservation where she grew up, and is a big reason that she is so familiar with it. While she doesn't live in Ottawa any more, it is where her Bounty contact is (They don't meet face to face too often). Her smuggler contact is based in Kirkland lake, roughly WNW from JD's place.
Forgot to specify that.She lives a bit NW of JD actually, in that area called Timiskaming Unorganized, East Part. It's fairly close to the Indian Reservation where she grew up, and is a big reason that she is so familiar with it. While she doesn't live in Ottawa any more, it is where her Bounty contact is (They don't meet face to face too often). Her smuggler contact is based in Kirkland lake, roughly WNW from JD's place.
Considering the similarities between the two characters. At the bare minimum that they seem to share job circles, I was wondering if JD and Longshot should at least know of each other. Perhaps even worked together or competed in taking down some of the nasty paracritters in the area. If they have been acquainted before, with Longshot's icy demeanor with men, I can see JD jokingly calling her "Kitty" just to get under her skin. Though it would be lighthearted fun not a hurtful jab. What do you think?
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Jan 14 2010, 08:00 PM)
Considering the similarities between the two characters. At the bare minimum that they seem to share job circles, I was wondering if JD and Longshot should at least know of each other. Perhaps even worked together or competed in taking down some of the nasty paracritters in the area. If they have been acquainted before, with Longshot's icy demeanor with men, I can see JD jokingly calling her "Kitty" just to get under her skin. Though it would be lighthearted fun not a hurtful jab. What do you think?
I was kinda thinking that a bit too. I don't see why they wouldn't have worked together or against each other at one point or another in the past. He wouldn't have much reason to call her "Kitty" though because he wouldn't have seen her without her gear on (At least very unlikely) and so wouldn't know she was a changeling beyond her tail, which she explains as being cybernetic if anyone asks. He might guess I suppose, but it would be a fairly out there guess.
Otherwise, like I said, no problem with our characters having met in some way before.
ok, If she keeps it hidden. I can understand that. I would lean more toward respected acquaintances than rivals. Maybe they have worked together and have also been at odds with each other but it has always been business not personal. Each respects the other for their skills and professionalism.
What the hey... the two of them can list each other as contacts, for free.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jan 15 2010, 01:39 AM)
What the hey... the two of them can list each other as contacts, for free.
Bah... players working together during character creation.... Where did the real Shadowrun go?
So, what, no one knows the cranky old man in the woods? That's just fine with me! Back in my day, shadowrunners didn't know each other before the run, and they had to walk to meet, uphill, both ways, in the snow, running from ghouls, and corp sec, and........ Stupid kids....
Well, Longshot will at least be going through the snow, and it will even likely be uphill both ways. Actually, if I got the location for the J's house right, it is something like 100 miles from JD's and my place. Being chased by paracritters is totally up to the GM, though 'chased' is unlikely to be the right word.
I think Longshot would be Loyalty 1 Connections 3 roughly... maybe only Connections 2.
I think Longshot would be Loyalty 1 Connections 3 roughly... maybe only Connections 2.
*chews on people.*
QUOTE (Foxx @ Jan 19 2010, 01:57 PM)
*chews on people.*
*Gnaws back*
Looks at the two chewing on each other. Thinks 'gotta be infected,' and takes aim.
Sooo...
Been a while, whats the good word with this? If there anything else we need to do, get ready, etc?
Been a while, whats the good word with this? If there anything else we need to do, get ready, etc?
We need to learn to make and use a lasso and get our GM
Sorry, I actually got some work the last few days. I will start the ball rolling in a day or so.
Alright, let's move over to the OOC and IC threads for Northern Gateway. Good hunting!
Space has opened up if anyone is interested.
I'm still around.
Yup, I've got Foxx, Karoline and Critias still enlisted. Looking for one or two more. New PCs can join you in Attawapiskat. I might use Chase as some kind of link. (He's been an awfully useful tool for the GM!)
I'll have a char written up in a couple of days
I'm travelling across the continent to Ontario over the next week or so, so my internet connections will be spotty. I'll try to keep in touch. No hurry therefore.
Just bought a motorcycle today. If that doesn't make me wanna run my driver, I dunno what will!
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