I was wondering about an edge that would help Orcs and Trolls overcome thier mental stat penalties, the idea being that Goblinization causes these horrible changes resulting in mental and social troubles. (I doubt an orc in the underground gets treated terribly by the rest of the underground.) Of course the idea here is that Goblinized people are still penalized, but that people born that way are not. Racism will still affect them, but they are better equiped against it. As mana grows this will be more common, possibly resulting in a higher cost for each of the races. Anyways here goes

Edge: Born Meta Human
For an Orc this is a five point edge, for Trolls it is a 10 point edge. Being born as a Meta removes the mental penalties for your race, +5 body, -1 Quickness, +4 strength, -0 charisma, -0 int ... etc.

What do you all think about this?

Umm... no one goblinizes anymore. Or if it does happen, its very rare. The stat modifications arent the result of goblinization trauma... its just that some metatypes arent as, shall we say, quick on the draw as others. Nowadays, orks are born orks and trolls are born trolls.

goblinization still happens fairly frequently, but not nearly as often as normal meta births (orks especially are noted for bearing multiple kids at a time). i'd switch it from Born Meta to Goblinized, to make more sense.

What makes a 'natural' ork smarter than the goblinized ork sitting next to him in the Barrens? Both had teachers that put them down as having 'learning disabilities' just to get them on the short bus and out of their classroom. Both had to deal with the same crappy attitudes from social workers and the media. Both lived in sub-standard housing full of toxins proven to retard mental development, etc.

The effects of racism go far beyond mere damage to self-esteem.

Okay, so most people are born meta's which I knew, but I couldnt think of a better name for the edge, The point being that, I dont think they are really that much slower (maybe with perception, sure, then again I dont like to link smarts with Int anyways) than anyone else. The big problem with me is charisma, which seems more force of personality than looks (most of the really charismatic people i know are not the most attractive people i know) and the idea that being an orc or a toll automatically makes you bland socialy I dont really like. They already face racisism from nearly everyone in the world, taking such a permenant hit to thier mental stats seems cruel. This just allows an out for them.

Anyways, it does depend on gm who decideds goblinization. A runner in 2060 might be 30 years old in which case there is a fair chance he did goblinize.

A more or less reasonable thing to do if its really bothering you would be to ignore charisma penalties for those races that possess them when dealing with members of your same race. To balance this out, races that possess charisma bonuses would ignore those when dealing with members of their own race.

i'll have to look it up, but i'm 99% sure it still happens.

Can't remember the book but it was the one with the troll bodyguard that had goblinized he didn't have the metal deficeits that all trolls have but he still got the bonuses to str, bod etc. So you could have a edge called goblinized and not have the racial penalties but you would have the bonuses.

I'll start looking.

It was one of the first shadowrun books (paperback) that came out...i'll look for you too.


Edit: Found it Changeling (Shadowrun, No 5) by Chris Kubasik

He goblinizes into a troll but doesnt lose his mental abilities.

Well supposedly the trauma of golblinization leaves people disoriented etc, because they are not used to the changes in thier bodies, thus the lower mental attributes. You might also claim racism causes this (which is possible, they might be less charasmatic because they value themselves less, they might be less intelligent because they have had less training in that department) But I cannot see how being discriminated against affects how well your perception works (unlike being nearsighted or such) I can still understand the physical penalties (id even argue that elves need -1 bod) but mental ones need a workaround, hopefully one that seems to be reasonable.

(One can always explain that fomori's magical background causes them to be more charismatic, as its needed for summoning spirits, but in general, I dont think that makes them look better as well)

Unfortunately, that's the drawback of rolling several issues into one stat.

A reasonable scenario that depletes one wouldn't reasonably impact the others: mental trauma, perception, for example.

It's tough to juggle the proper number of attributes between playability and mechanical realism.

SR has deigned to use these attributes that cover these topics. Operating within the suggested parameters, Trolls suffer penalties to their Intelligence. I recall the line suggesting such penalties were due to the shock of goblinizing -- why naturally born trolls continue to suffer the penalty doesn't make sense.

Unless the hypothesis regarding the mental ability being reduced because of the act of goblinization was incorrect and goblinoids simply have limited mental abilities at birth.

-Siege

Trolls and orcs are just dumber.

That's how I've always played it, although I do have to agree with Siege's statement about the issues of rolling several functions into one. Ah, SPECIAL, how I miss you...

Heh, I don't know if I'm any substantially happier with the SPECIAL attribute system.

For those of you who don't know:

Strength
Perception
Endurance
Charisma
Intelligence
Agility
Luck

-Siege

Well for trolls you could explain it as the dermal depposts crushing parts of the brain, Don't know how for orks though.

Besides there is always exceptional and bonus attribute edges.

Luck? Is Karma pool not good enough?

I once toyed with the idea of splitting each attribute into two subattributes.. but in the end I didnt feel that it would improve the game sufficiently to be worth the complexification.

As this board has demonstrated repeatedly, there is always a way to justify, rationalize or explain a particular mechanic, event or scenario.

I just take it at face value that goblinoids suffer these penalties.

Although, I have this bizarre urge to play a goblin demolitions specialist for some reason...

-Siege

How about their brain just isn't as physically efficient. period.

Why cant you have preety Trolls? I mean honest. Why cant the have like a charisma of 6 and that be because they look GOOD?

It's entirely possible, just less likely. That's what the exceptional attribute edge is for.

Remember that the 6+- racial mods is only the limit for a new character without an exceptional attribute. 6 at build = 9 maximum without cyber or magic.

I fail to see the need for this. His social skills are not limited in any way by his Charisma except in terms of how much Karma they cost to raise. At worst, and orc or troll has to work a little harder to be as effective in social situations. This seems reasonable to me.

Besides, the changes suggested would lead to a large game imbalance. Trolls with none of the negatives and all of the bonuses have no place in my games!

As for the character in Changeling, he did indeed lose some of his mental facilities. He had to work quite hard to retain what he could, and even improve upon his former knowledge.

In that book his int was definitely affected. He found it was like "Thinking through gauze" and in the beginning of the book worked hard reading books and doing other things to raise his Int back up, Representing him spending karma to make his Int an exceptionally high attribute.

In reference to Changeling: A genius of any other race is still a genius. However he was still working a lot harder than he ever had before he Goblinized.

In reference to a troll/ork's general stats: These guys are physical monsters. Expect to pay some penalties in fairness to your fellow roleplayers. You may not have your cake and eat it too.

About skills: The only limit on how high anyone's skill may be is equal to twice it's related attribute. Sure it may be karma expensive but thems the breaks.

About charisma: It is not force of personality, that is willpower, and ork/trolls have no restrictions on that att. Charisma is about knowing what, when, and how to communicate. It rates your relative gift in this area.

Ex: Bill Clinton was not a pretty boy. He was kinda chubby and his dialect could be confusing. However, he had a tremendous ability to size up a crowd and say the right thing. One's charisma usually overcomes your physical first impression. Either improving or worsening it.

Without citing the description from the BBB verbatim, Charisma is a "nebulous" attribute and covers the whole range of positive self-esteem.

The paragraph says "more than just looks", which to me implies it covers a certain amount of physical beauty as well as poise, social ability and so on.

Is it possible to have a Charisma of 1 and be a gorgeous super model? I suppose so -- although the SR system doesn't reflect it as such. (Maybe a secondary stat: Attr that gets altered by scars, improved by plastic surgery and so forth)

I wonder what that description implies about elves...

-Siege

I've always seen the decreased mental stats as being caused by a combination of factors. First being a larger size. Second, higher levels of testosterone, and third, a shorter childhood.

1) Really this might just be my misunderstanding of biology, but I am almost certain I read some thing where they found a correlation of gigantism and lower brain function. I could be wrong. Something about decreased blood flow to the brain. More energy goes into physical development than mental.

2) I distinctly remember that in shadowrun they mention that orks and trolls have much higher levels of testosterone. This could lead to more impulsive, aggressive behavior, and less ability to focus. Think about some of the people you've seen on steroids or people on the atkins diet for an extended period of time(I have personal experience with this one). It wold also lower levels of serotonin in the brain as well.

3) Most of what you learn, most of learning how to learn as well, and development of the brain, is done before puberty. If the time before puberty is shortened then the capacity is lowered.


And thats my psusoscience.

-The Eggman

Possibly -- or big people aren't challenged mentally as often as short people. As bad as that may sound, if you aren't forced to think or react quickly in a mental arena, odds are you won't develop the same ability as someone forced to think on the fly and respond accordingly.

What are you implying about people on the Atkins diet? They manifest more levels of testosterone than people who aren't?

As for the shortened period of puberty -- very possible. Although it could be suggested that Nature would compensate with the brain's ability to develop as well as assimilate information on the same scale as the physical changes associated with the time in hell we call puberty.

-Siege

I do remember the difference now about those that Goblinize vs those born Meta. If you goblinize you live your full life cycle i.e. human norm 70 years. If your born Orc or troll you only get the lower number of years to live

Entirely unrelated topic, but sorta relevant to this thread:

I've always pictured thermo vision working more or less like "Predator" or "RoboCop" -- warm and cold signatures, but being unable to distinguish fine detail or features.

Which means, one thermal blob looks much like another, yes?

Is it possible to create a means of identifying between two humanoid shapes? A patch that flickered different wavelengths of UV -- "blinking", as it were?

-Siege

Fascinating.

I haven't heard or read anything about increased testosterone levels, but you could also attribute those factors to withdrawal symptoms.

People trying to quit smoking, for example, can be a royal pain.

Really, trying to adhere to any radical change in lifestyle can be stressful, causing similar reactions.

-Siege

I think that a very reasonable 1 point Edge would be Goblinized, as afore mentioned. The only benefit would be the longer life span, though. I never thought of that being an edge before this thread, but it seems reasonable to me, yeah?

This is what charisma includes in SR3: Looks, personal aura, self-image, ego, willingness to find out what other people want and give it to them, ability to recognize what he can and can't get out of people. (and more)

One reason for orks and trolls to have lower charisma would be the self-image part - if you live in a world and society who says you are stupid, ugly, and scary, you won't have as good a base for thinking highly of yourself. If you have to buy clothes, furniture, phones, etc in 'special' stores, and most things in your daily surroundings are just too small for you to use effectively, chances are this will bump your ego and self-image abit too.

Add to this that your brain and body works abit differently, and maybe slower or less effective in some situations, an that you had a shorter childhood and more volatile puberty (or a rearranging of your brain during puberty, as the case may be) this may reduce your capabilities for social interacting with others.

That said, orks at least, should probably get bonuses interacting with other orks in an ork-type community, but this can't be determined by set rules - that is where roleplaying comes in. It can be argued that roleplaying should portray these effects all the time, but besides game balance it is easier to make the average effects into rules, and deviate in roleplaying when necessary.

Do I make sense?

Yeah I geuss it makes a lot more sence to me now. Although then it makes Elves look like upperclass citizens, because that plus 2 charisma makes them seem like everyone loves them, and that they get treated extra special nice because they are elves. Anyways, seeing it more as a social situation makes a heck of a lot more sence.

The only issue for some of the societal influence stuff is that trolls and orcs from the German nation expressly for them would have normal charisma, neh?

Only Formori (sp?) don't get the charisma penalty, and they're celtic.

1: Game Balance

When ever you give someo one positives you have to give them negatives. Otherwise it isn't balanced.

2: Trolls and Orks are either born to Troll and Ork parents or they goblinize. Human parents do not have troll and ork babies.

3: Elves and Dwarves can be born to human parents and other elves and dwarves. Elves and Dwarves never goblinize. Ever. They can only be born.

I have seen people submit characters with histories about goblinizing into an elf, or being born to human parents as a Troll and I thought I would take this time to clear up any confusion.

Umm? What?

Any human can change into anything. It's less and less common that metatypes are having children of another type, but it still occurs. SR3 says as much.

Human parents *can* have troll, ork, dwarf, or elf babies, but its exceedingly rare unless one of the parents is of another race. Trolls, orks, dwarves and elves can also have human babies, but this is also rare unless one of the parents is human. The only way for an ork to have an elf, dwarf, or troll baby is to have sex with an elf, dwarf or troll, respectively... otherwise the ork has two options as far as babies are concerned: human or ork, with human being rare. This same rule applies to each race except humans. Humans do not *ever* goblinize into elves or dwarves... all elves and dwarves are born as such.

I understand the concept of game blanance, I figure someone playing a ton for an edge that would get rid of penalties is game balance. Its sort of like paying five buildpoints to be a meta so you can be a Fomori and not have a charisma penalty.

No they can't.

I will have to pour through my books when I get home, but I am certain that Trolls and Orks are only born to troll and ork parents, or they goblinize.
And I am positive elves and dwarves are only born to human or their own kind of parents. Trolls don't have elves as children.

If you have a canon reference that says otherwise please post it.