Let's say I have 1 IP and fire a SA pistol. Second shot gives a -1 recoil penalty. Is this cumulative and will result in a -2 penalty for the first shot of the next turn?

No. It refreshes on each new initiative pass.

Ok. Thanks.

Mind you, not every combat turn, every initiative pass.

Also recoil is cumulative yes. But the actual mod is based on the number of bullets fired that pass -1. That's where those numbers on the chart come from.

First short burst 3 bullets -1 == 2 recoil.
Second short burst in pass. 6 bullets -1 == 5 recoil total.


It only gets complicated when you get people dual-wielding pistols and the like.

This gets ridiculous when carried to the logical extreme: One of my PC's is a troll adept with ambidexterity. He dual-wields high-velocity assault rifles, and he takes no recoil thanks to a mix of high strength, RC in the guns, and the recoil being split between 2 weapons. 2 long bursts a pass. Think about it O.o

I was under the impression that rifles could be fired one-handed at a penalty, but I thought that they couldn't be (officially) dual wielded.

Trolls can with... (-2 i think?)

Orks not. But hell, if he is a tough dude with a crapload of strength and body... i would allow it, no racism (metaspeciaism?) in my games *g*

so... have more than 3 targets for him... he's gona run out of ammo. Drones also make good opponents, and heck if he's tossing that much power maybe toss in a few armored vehicles and a few dudes with gunnery on heavy machine guns.

Is there a canon reference for this? Arsenal maybe? The rules for dual wielding in the BBB are pretty explicit- pistols and SMGs only.

Phew... let me look for it... hmmm. lets see...

EDIT: Ah there it is. Hm... i am of course a bit wrong. It is mentioned on Arsenal page 162 that a character can use a bigger weapon in one hand with -2 (-1 for trolls) This does not mention the use of two big weapons at the same time, sady... but since it is insane and cool i would be ok with that.

Second edit: What sick man wrote the entries for small target in firefights (page 161) anyway. Babies and Toddlers... HOLY... hehehe

I wondered if you left your reality filter on again, but sure enough, it's there. Wow.

As far as I'm concerned, if it can be fired with one hand, it can be dual wielded.

Hmmm. I definitely would not allow it. Firing a rifle one handed is possible, but its not effective. Dual wielding two rifles is just silly. Then again, so is using two handguns at the same time...

hmm...:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ

point is: You CAN do it... hitting stuff (or walking while doing it) is another point... also: MAGIC... and Trolls. If something weighs in at over 250 Kg and is about three to four times stronger than a highly trained man... let him have it. (I mean in a good way)

Ahhhhh... But firing two pistols at the same time (ala the Replacement Killers) is pretty cool looking indeed...

Keep the Faith

How many guns can a troll wield at the same time?

As many as he wants to (are you going to tell him he can't?)

Oh yeah, there's lots of magical stuff in SR that doesn't exist in RL... like game balance.

I know dual wielding pistols looks cool. And I can suspend my disbelief enough to stomach it. I'll even admit I've built me a gunslinger adept or two. I'm just saying that dual wielding pistols is not combat effective IRL and dual wielding rifles is just more than I can bear. Just my opinion (although I would point out that strictly speaking the RAW does not allow it either).

The ranged combat rules aren't realistic in the least anyways, so there's not much reason to debate wether firing two rifles at the same time is possible IRL.
Hey, in the real world no one would use even a perfectly normal pistol one-handed, if he can help it, because you cripple effective range and firing speed, yet there's nothing stopping you in SR.

Whaddya mean? Works just fine.






-karma

Followed up by this this, this and this.

Funny... they never seem to show the target? Oh wait...

Sorry to get on topic here, but since when does recoil stack for the second shot in an initiative pass? Recoil rules are clear that the second shot from the same gun in an IP gets exactly 1 extra recoil, regardless of what kind of burst you're firing or have fired before. So firing 2 short bursts in an IP means -2 recoil for the first shot and -3 recoil for the second, firing a short burst and then a long gives you a recoil of -6 for the long burst, firing a long burst and then a short burst gives you -3 for the short burst. If I'm wrong here please tell me because that interpretation seems rather different from the one I've been using.

Uncompensated recoil on duel wielding does stack, which sucks. Wielding 2 pistols with -1 uncompensated recoil each does indeed give you a -2 to firing both, after the dice pool has been split. So make sure the weapons you're duel wielding have full recoil comp or ouch.

Which i swhy 4 (or 6!) armed gun adepts are terrible.

I found them very viable... They just have to be really good, and the target shouldn't have much armor (if it is above the "golden line" of Weapon damage, there is a problem)... but then they can take a lot of things apart.

Let us just assume the shooter has two arms, two semi-automatic guns (loaded with apds or something), and recoil mods: customized grip and internal compensation 1, for free shooting without any penalties. He has Agility 7, skill 6 and a bonus die from somewhere... lets say a reflex recorder. He also has a specialization of course and the ambidexterity-quality:

his attack is now: 10/9 +10/9 dice. Not THAT much but very competent BUT the idea is is to get the reaction-dice of the target down. Say the defender is on full defense and has reaction 6 and dodge 5 =11 dice. That means he has 11/10/9/8 dice against this attack chain. It slowly degrades as the attack stays constant. If he got hit in one of the first attacks it is further reduced to the wound modifier and the "possible damage" is of course way beyond the damage of a single weapon.

And if you have a enemy where you need concentrated fire to get through the armor or where the situational penalties are higher than your prospective needed damage + reaction panalties to the enemy are higher: just use one gun and get the benefits of aiming/laserpointer/smartgun etc..

Point is: use it against less or same skilled oponents in close quarters, or against horrible bad people in large numbers. (the -2 for a new target put a dent in your ability to murder them).

The whole "going dual" only costs you maybe 5 BP and has the same build as other gunslingers. Carrying a second gun is cheap and under the right circumstances it is beneficial. (Also you can use it without reloading, which is good for example to use 2 Steyr- TMPs for 2 rounds of suppressive fire and still have 10 bullets in each of them - even without enhanced clips, Or to fire 2 Single-Shot revolvers with full dicepool each)

Back to the recoil: The only thing i really have problems with is the double uncompensated recoil for heavy weapons AND shotguns. It is a bit shoehorned in there, was in 3rd already. My point is that the effect is HUGE if you don't have some forms of combined recoilcompensation... and on high-velocity weapons it is so high that nothing can help you fire it without mounting it on a hardpoint. (I know that is the idea of it) I would like having it more gradualy. By having most heavy weapon have a internal recoil system compatible with all others, because of design, maybe 4-5 points, but somehow still have a slight recoil left, even if fully modded.

Ah well, it works good enough i guess.

Page 152 SR4a... "Weapons that fire more than one round IN AN ACTION PHASE suffer from an ESCALATING recoil modifier as the rounds leave the barrel"
Page 153 SR4a... "The first burst fired in AN ACTION PHASE inflicts a -2 recoil modifier, the second inflicts AN ADDITIONAL -3 recoil..."

Devs have stated directly in the past that recoil is CUMULATIVE across an initiative pass, or action phase... (why they do the switch up on terms is beyond me). Why they also didn't do something simple like say, recoil is number of bullets fired that pass -1. Sometimes I think they like to hear themselves speak/type. The devs have stated that the chart is based directly on that bullet count formula in the past.



EG: if I fire a long burst... that's -5 recoil (6bullets -1), if I then switch the gun to short bursts, and fire again, that's -3 ADDITIONAL. (9 bullets -1 == 8 cumulative).
EG: If I go john woo w/ 2 uncompensated pistols. Firing 2 shots in a single pass means -1 recoil (2 shots -1) on EACH pistol for the first simple action. Firing again nets -3 recoil (4shots -1) on each. (4 bullets total, no recoil comp). If I add 1point of RC to each pistol... now it's no mod for first shot (2 -1 -1RC), and -1 recoil penalty on both shots in second action (4-1-2RC).


It's not -5 for the first, and then -3 for the second as you seem to suggest. Nor is it -2 for short burst, then -3 for second, it's an additional -3 for -5 total.


Edit: Houserulewise... If it was me... I'd give MG's & HW no double recoil penalty... They're designed from the get go to be big, unwieldy, and not to suffer excessive recoil from automatic fire.
However shotguns and 'small arms' I'd sock w/ the double recoil penalty for burst fire. Then give a special to SMG's & machine pistols that if they're used 2-handed they only get single penalty so they have a niche advantage over assault rifles.

The way I read it, if you're firing your weapons with separate actions (for example, a simple long burst with 1 SMG and a simple short burst with the other), the recoil is tracked separately per weapon. Can anyone cite to the contrary?

Hmm, you're right. Still, it's weird they only mention that under the rules for short bursts and in the proceding example, which I apparently skipped over. You'd think they'd spell something like that out more clearly in the general rules for recoil.

This rule is included in the text for long bursts too in SR4A.

But what about firing two weapons with separate actions?

Even scarier when combined with a troll taking 4 initiative passes. Also, 5 recoil on a given assault rifle is not at all hard to compensate for without using strength. Gas vent III and personalized grip are quite cheap and effective.

He is taking 4 IP's. Adept with Improved Reflexes III & Combat Sense.

[Edit:] I cap max power ratings at (Magic/2, round down), so he's pure magic, no 'ware. His Strength is actually minimum for a troll (5 unagumented, explained away by the fact that he's Fomori and they're supposed to be smaller), but with Berserk that goes up to 6, giving him 1 stacking RC. Also, HV long bursts give more than 5 recoil IIRC (AFB atm).

Recoil is calculated per Action *Phase* (i.e. per pass since you get one action phase per initiative pass) not per action.

The question is recoil stacking from two-weapon combat, when you are using two separate actions to fire, opposed to the normal single-action split pool.

The answer is no, the recoil does not carry over to the second weapon. It only does so when the weapons are fired with the same action, and only for uncompensated recoil.

That's what I thought. Could you give me a citation or citations so I can answer this quickly in the future if it comes up again?

Thanks ^_^

You're thinking HV full-bursts, which are indeed more recoiley. Long bursts, on the other hand, are the same, HV or no. HV just spits them out "faster" so you can do 2 in a phase.

That's not what Tyro was looking for.

Here you go:
So if you use each weapon only once in the action phase, there is only the recoil for the first shot/burst. There is no overflow of recoil.
Two short burst would be -2 and -2. On short and one long would be -2 and -5 or the other way around. Unfortunately you cannot shoot two long bursts because the character and not the weapon is restricted to only one per IP.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation.



So I have weapon R in my right hand and weapon L in my left. I fire weapon R once with one simple action. If I were to fire weapon R again with a second simple action I would have a recoil modifier (i.e.- there is a recoil modifier applicable to weapon R). Why should that magically disappear if I fire weapon L?

That was answered:

If you would bother to read his posts, especially responses to mine, you would see that yes, it was.


Recoil from Weapon A only carries over to Weapon B (& vice-versa) if two conditions are met:
1) The recoil is uncompensated.
2) The weapons are fired with the same action.

The second point is what was asked, and a rules quote was provided.

I disagree.

The "firing both with a single Simple Action" line does not modify the line which states "recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon" or the text under the Recoil heading on page 152 which clearly states that recoil modifiers are cumulative from one simple action to the next.

If firing weapon R gives a recoil modifier that carries over from one simple action to the next, it will affect weapon L as well.

[edit] Dividing your attention between 2 hands and 2 different weapons by necessity requires you to shoot one handed which is less effective, never mind the fact that most peoples brains cannot do this efficiently. The cost of doing so should not be a bonus to recoil. If that doesn't set off your game balance alarm, I don't know what would.

So the "firing both in the same simple action" line doesn't modify the "split your dice pool" line either?

That's why Ambidexterity costs

Actually, for high-velocity weapons, a long burst can be treated as two short bursts at two different targets, so, with two long bursts per IP from two guns, the character could potentially engage 8 enemies per pass for 9DV minimum each. At four IPs, that makes 32 targets in a single 3 second combat round, all facing 9+ damage. That is, assuming he's got 60 rounds in each gun.

Speaking as the GM who taught the player in question this trick and now has to deal with it... Help?

maybe a bit late but i think the setup goes like this:

Start enforcing actual recoil regs on the character.

I sincerely doubt he has over 12 points of recoil comp. (and you're following the strict letter rules that only Pistols and SMG's can be dual'ed). 2 long bursts is 24 bullets in a pass... meaning he needs 23 points recoil comp...

Actually pay attention to the -2 dice PER additional target in an action phase which will further ravage a split pool. (IE: I shoot one guy w/ my heavy pistol, he goes down, I engage a new target w/ my second shot... that's a -2 penalty most people forget about). It's right there on p152.. multiple targets.


Pay attention to the rules having the attacker split the dice pool when splitting up fire like that on top of the split dice pool for multiple weapons.

Remember, those rules are not for engaging one target w/ 2 short bursts... but can only be applied against closely spaced targets. Against a single target he'd still need to treat it as a single long burst and not 2 short ones.




Generally, telling someone that, turnabout is fair play, and these will be used against them... generally tends to get people to understand when they're using a broken mechanic.

post prequel

Well, you should reduce his dice pool a good bit for spreading the pain around. First off, give him half the suggested STR RC for going guns akimbo. Remember also that the DP goes down by -2 for each successive target in an IP. So, DP/2 for using and stacking -2 per target should leave him on shaky ground when going full ballistic on a room full of dudes.

Also, if you allow specializations to add to the test after splitting the initial DP, well, don't. As written, it can be interpreted that way, but...

I thought it was clear that the base dice pool is NOT split, as he's firing each gun in a separate action. Other than that, thanks!