He's a reeeeeal classy lad

I'd like to register my interest in this game, possibly jumping into (not as in rigging) Lurker's grave, if there's a space free. I like the idea of a someone who specializes in wireless comms and interception, etc. I also had an idea about how technomancers are banned, what about latent or wild ones? Also, about this "you're not a team" thing, are we shadowrunners? As in, 'meet with Johnson, do the job'? Or will we be doing hacks on a whim? Lastly, how important will meaty skills like Athletics group be in this game?

While I'm not going to throw in the towel completely as Lurker did, at least not just yet, I do agree with a lot of the issues he raised, there seems to be a lot of contradictions in what we're being told, so would love for Troll Bouncer to give some kind of clarification here. I'll list just a few of the contradictions.

This is a Matrix centric game, but meatspace will be an aspect as well. Despite meatspace coming into play, there's no specific geographic location for us, so theoretically we could all be in different countries on different sides of the planet, and yet meatspace is going to be a part of this game somehow.

We're not a team, but somehow we're going to have common enough goals to play in some sort of form. Are we supposed to be working together on some kind of great hack on like a Renraku node, or are we just going to be sitting around shooting the shit about our latest code and warez? What is going to unify this group of normally antisocial types beyond just a love of hacking?

You talk about there being some form of Rep system, but don't elaborate if this is just some Matrix version of Notoriety/Street Cred/Public Awareness or if it's going to be more akin to the Rep Scores we see mentioned in JackPoint fluff, or what?

You state this is about exploring all the sides of hacker culture that often get swept under the rug by non-Matrix centric groups and that we're all supposed to be individualists, but I don't sense anything beyond "hey, let's go to hacker bars and bullshit about coding and warez and the like". I get the feeling you have this grand idea of what you want, and it's mostly the fluff stuff, but there's not much reason for our characters to have anything to do with the others. Hate to say it, but this sounds a lot like Daikatana: hyped up to be a lot of awesomeness, but bound to fall flat on its face because it lacks heavily in one major area - gameplay.

Care to help address these concerns, Troll Bouncer?

Could we just chill for a minute and try to give the first willing GM we've seen in two months a bit of breathing space here?

Want to have the players be geographically close?

Might I suggest talking to the other players and working something out?

If you want a bit more solidity in plot, aims and goals make some of your own. I'm sure Troll-bouncer has some concrete plans, whether or not he wants to share them or wants to have us create characters that aren't specifically tailored to the plot in question is up to him and being confrontational certainly isn't helping to encourage him to persist.

I'm looking for clarification on all the contradictions. I'm not sure how any of this is going to work, and I'm not the first to point it out, so asking for some answers.

I think the concept for this campaign is unusual (and interesting) enough that I can understand people wanting more specific details, but I'm with crizh on this. I've seen a lot of games pop up on these boards, and a lot of GMs recruiting players who never mentioned their plans for the plot even once. I've also seen games ban concepts (such as TMs), with a lot less explanation than we've received. Basically, if TB wants to expand on what he has planned, I'm sure people would be eager to get more clues, but I don't think he owes us any more explanations. New games are infrequent enough that if this game doesn't sound like fun to someone, there are probably a dozen other people who would disagree and love to get a chance to play.

I agree with crizh, let's just agree on what we want to get out of this game? I, personally, like the idea of being an all-hacker shadowrunner team in the same geographical locale, with this Rep system coming into play after the run, where we go brag in hacker bars about crashing x nodes at the same time. Making a name in the 'trix and scoring rep sounds awwwwwright to me. Of course, if that's not what trollbouncer has in mind, I'm up for anything.

Here's what I see:

I see Troll Bouncer, who i'm sure is a fine person and all, but basically posted something on his first day on the boards about running a game. He didn't have a very good idea in his head what he wanted other then he wants it to be a matrix game and he really doesn't like TM's. That's fine however Shadowrun like most settings has a default set of assumptions that help people set expectations when building characters. The default is, you are a criminal, who does some form of crime for money, and you likely live in Seattle. Troll has given us just enough information that suggest that very little of the defaults apply without filling anything in their place

Another consideration, being as this is a message board devoted entirely to shadowrun you have people that are dialed in to the setting and the system way more then if it was just a pick up group at a convention or game store. Because of that your going to get pinged on a lot of granular details about characters and setting that normally you could just hand wave with "It's 7PM, in seattle and your pregen characters comlink rings".

Then there is the ugly truth, and granted I really really don't want to sound elitist as I havn't been here all that long myself but on his first day on the board he posted a suggestion of a new game with a vague idea in his head, completely misunderstanding the amoutn or response, and more importantly. WORK involved in runing such a venture. Since that time he's posted a half dozen times but hasn't done anything that actually clears the air or sets expectations.

At this point from someone looking in it looks like you've got players putting way more effort in then the GM, and to the GM in me that strikes as wrong.

Again, why don't we all agree on what we, as players, want, and see if trollbouncer will accomodate it?

Troll Bouncer hasn't posted since the 3rd, maybe we scared him away. I hope that isn't the case.

It certainly seems to be the case and frankly I'm a bit PO'd about it.

I've never seen a new poster or a potential GM treated with such casual contempt. I'm shocked that any potential player in a PbP game would have the gall to speak to a GM the way certain posters have in this thread.

I do not know how many hours anybody else has spent crafting potential characters for this game but it was a substantial amount of my valuable (IM-not-so-HO) time pissed up against a wall.

I've kept my mouth shut up until this point but as it seems the game is dead and the time I invested is wasted it won't happen again.

In future anyone 'thread-crapping' in a game I'm interested in will be immediately reported to the mod's.

My advice is, if you don't like the look of a game, shut up and sod off.

Get off your high horse, crizh, he posted after Lurker's initial comment. And if you'd taken the time to look at his profile, you'd see he hasn't even logged in since that post on the third, which is more indicative of something going on in his RL, such as loss of internet, death in the family, extra work keeping him from the internet, etc. So either one person completely chased him away from the Dumpshock forums, as you suggest, or there's something preventing him from logging in. Which do you think is the more likely possibility?

quick question: with all of this hostility, is the game even going to survive if it does go any further?

Seriously?

You repeated Lurker's offences after he had left the thread and eventually managed to drag him back into it to give the GM another good kicking after he had declared that he wasn't going to play.

Neither of you are the sort of people I want to game with.

You are both badly in need of learning some manners.

Troll Bouncer's initial post clearly indicated that he was a PnP GM of at least a decades experience who has only just joined DS.

Within a dozen posts two barely 'Moving Targets' have been unforgivably rude and hostile to him and critical of his GM'ing style, bizarrely he hasn't logged in since.

I imagine that once he found himself a bit under the weather he thought; 'Frak this, I can't be bothered with this drek.'

I asked for clarification, pointing out some contradictions. And just because I wasn't a regular PbP poster here doesn't mean I haven't been on Dumpshock longer than you yourself crizh. I didn't need to be PbP, I had 2 groups in the flesh and came here more for the information. Now, just because you play in several PbP games and thus have made a lot of posts, you think you know all the answers and jump down people's throats? Like I said, calm down, think reasonably, and quit accusing people. If, as you say, Troll Bouncer WAS chased off by Lurker's one post (which says a lot about his character if that is the case, and says a lot about you that you assume such of him), then my request for clarification didn't chase him off, he was already gone.

As I said, it's far more likely he's just got something going on IRL and hasn't been able to login for a few days. It happens. Forgot to pay the internet bill? Maybe. Lives in a fairly rural area and the power lines are down so he has no power? Happens. Death in the family? Happens. Having to work a lot of extra hours to fill in for someone who just up and quit? Happens. So why don't you calm down, quit assuming the worst of everyone (including Troll Bouncer), and stop accusing people of things.

No, you came across as hostile, holier-than-thou, smart-arsed and just not generally very pleasant to hold any sort of discussion with let alone enter into a long term on-line exercise that might involve months or years of investing time, effort and creativity with.

Not a word of the contracted rant above could in any way be construed as conciliatory or respectful.

If you'd been on DS longer than me you would know what PbP meant and you might be a lot politer to one of the very few people willing to make the effort to GM.

I didn't jump down anyone's throat. I waited patiently for nearly a week to see what would result from Troll Bouncer's shabby treatment and then I let you know my opinion of your behaviour.

If you were paying attention you would have noticed Troll Bouncer saying he was unwell so your speculation as to why he might not be posting is irrelevant, he flat-out told you already.

Question is, will he be back?

I would not blame him if the answer was no.

Some would make the argument that part of manners is not making general statements about people you've never met before and barely know, but I digress.



I went looking for this post and couldn't find it, because it doesn't exist. His initial post was about gathering for a matrix specific, only after I started requesting more details did he drop hints about his gaming experience beyond his experience as a decker player and obviously the very large axe he had to grind over something that happene din the past or what was currently happening in his gaming group. But if you believe otherwise who am I to try and dissuade you from your custom reality, the search tools are all I need.


I had presumed he was either sick or had lost interest, in the case of the former, no blood no foul in the case of the latter maybe my so called rudeness did you a favor as if it is the case he likely wouldn't have stuck with things long enough to keep the game running. GM's have to be made of stern stuff I'm given to believe.


Good luck with that as I'm sure the moderators want to be the "feelings" police and make sure and distinguish thread crapping from requests for clarification.

So lets review shall we, your obviously very upset as you'd pinned your hopes on this game. I get that, I was actually looking forward to the chance to play vs GM for a change and the Matrix side of the game, both Hackers and otherwise have always held a special place in my heart going back to snowcrash. Having said that even if I am guilty of the offenses you accuse me of your anger is misdirected as anyone who trots out "roleplay vs rollplay" because their being asked to fill in background information that will allow me to make the background that will drive the number crunching part of the process strikes me as the sort of person who is too temperamental and fragile to GM a game in any medium, let alone online which has it's own unique challenges.

Final thought: I hope Troll does come back and runs and I hope he and you have the wonderfull game it was to be in your mind, but the preponderance of evidence was he never had the follow through to begin with and any colors to the contrary are strictly in your own head. His best picture he could paint was some combination of Hackers the movie and either some baggage from his home game or some problem I've never suffered. I'm not going to get into who posts for how long, because it's all relative and trivial anyway.

It's been nearly a week since you 'respectfully' (snort) bowed out of this game. Might I suggest that you shut up and butt out already?

Yeah, I'm gonna say no, it's probably not going to survive...

You can certainly suggest it but considering your the one that also suggested I learn manners you have only yourself to blame for the fact that I'm here. Evidently everyone's aggressive and hostile but you,

OOOOOH, I can do that too.


You see, when you cut out big chunks of what someone says to paint your own picture, it makes them look like a complete @$$ whether they are one or not, and whether they intended to be or not. The difference is, I didn't need to do it to you, your hostility is evident to everyone. Again, calm down and give it some time. Maybe he's still sick, maybe it got worse and he had to go to the hospital. But since you automatically consider that he is so cowardly as to be chased off by a little criticism from one person who respectfully said he didn't understand and was leaving (to which Troll Bouncer himself replied and wished the player luck), what does that say about what you think of him? You obviously don't think much of Troll Bouncer to assume such of him, but considering your penchant for jumping down the throats of every player here, I think it's more a matter of your disrespect for people as a whole.

As for your comment about my having been here longer and not knowing what PBP meant, let me point something out to you. Look to the left, under the avatar photo. There's a little section that says "Joined Date" and says when you created your account on Dumpshock. Notice mine is a good 8 months before your own. So I obviously joined before you did, so why would I not know what PBP means? Simple, I'm used to in person or chat based roleplaying, the last month or so is the first time I've done forums. So again, get off your high horse, quit being so elitist to the other players, and calm down. I'm sure Troll will be back.

OK, here's a good example of why you are worthless in a debate.

You have worn the phrase 'jumping down peoples throats' down to transparency you have used it so often.

I have countered that it took me nearly a week to make any sort of critical statement about your behaviour.

You have failed to address this argument.

Yet you once again accuse me of jumping down your throat.

This is indicative of your entire pattern of debate.

If you want to defend your position defend it.

Simply restating it more and more offensively is not winning the debate, it is lying on the floor of the supermarket screaming and thrashing your limbs.

Yes my posts have been hostile, I do not deny it.

They use exactly the same sort of language you used in your initial posts. Posts which you continue to pretend were completely innocent.

Pot, kettle, black. In all honesty, I've stated several times I was looking for clarification, not trying to be hostile. If I came across as such, it was not intended, but since only you have said such about my comments, I'm left to assume only you felt them hostile. What more can I say to defend that I was asking for clarification? You on the other hand have been nothing but a hostile git from the get go, and so, with that, I'm ending here. If Troll Bouncer comes back, I'll be glad to play in his game if he clarifies the contradictions, if not, oh well. But you, crizch, are nothing more than the internet version of the schoolyard bully, berating anyone who you dislike or disagree with, and seeing only hostility where there is none. I could go the Freudian route and wonder if you're trying to compensate for something, or go the more modern route and wonder if you're lashing out at people because of your own insecurity with yourself. Whatever the case may be, I say again, calm down.

Is anyone else actually interested in playing the game here? I literally cannot be arsed to spend my time wading through flamewars, trying to find some semblance of civility. All I can see is people constantly defending themselves and justifying pointless insults in an argument that DOES NOT MATTER. Holy shit, I've caught it too. Anyway, let's all play nice and, hopefully, play Shadowrun.

Hiya!

If Troll Bouncer comes back and clarifies the contradicting information, I might, depending on what the answers are.

I've PMed the GM. I now have an urge to speak in two-letter acronyms that rhyme with PM, but I can't think of any!

BM
CM
DM
EM
TM
VM

AM & PM (well, the other PM)

AM doesn't rhyme though.

Now this is much more productive than flaming! I can only see EM and TM being relevant though. (Electromagnetic Technomancer!)

VM = Virtual Machine, CM = countermeasure, and unless you're an AI or have a full immersion lifestyle, BM might be a bit relevant

Breakfast Machine!

Close enough.

What is it?

Body Mass