Pick the most obscene character build using the 400bp and see how with equivalent karma build.

Negative qualities must be balanced with equal number of positive.
No more than 20 points in contacts
Usual limits for the build
All metatypes/races acceptable
5x attribute cost

Good luck

Easy. Pick a metavariant troll, max his strength (using the SURGE, Exceptional, and genetweak qualities for extra maximums). Then max out his skills the same way.

This will very easily make the karma limit look small due to the fact that in BP the 10th point of strength costs....10 BP. In karma it costs 50.

ok so what does it come out as the karma equivalent total?

I got 995 karma.

Pick a troll mage. 55 BP -> 110 karma
Surge class I for metagenetic Str. Worthless negative qualities = 10 meta and 70 regular. -20bp -> -40 karma
Bod, Str, Cha, Log and Int all softmaxed. Will and Mag softmaxed as well. 240BP -> 575 karma
Edge maxed 65BP -> 100 karma
One language at 6. Four languages at 4. One at 2 0BP -> 70 karma
Buy five lvl 2 power focuses 50BP -> 100 karma
Bind five lvl 2 powerfocues 10BP -> 80 karma

BP 240+65+55+50+10-20 = 400
Karma 575+110+100+100+80+70-40 = 995

Probably could have done better if I'd taken the In Debt quality, hardmaxed magic instead of egde and used the exra 45k nuyen to buy another focus to bind. That was a real karma sink.

EDIT: Changed to Fomori w/ In Debt lvl6 and bought/bound a level 2 spellcasting focus. dropped Cha by 1 pt.

Total karma 1024.

Qualities should not factor into the equation. They should be cost neutral so positive15 qualities should balance with 15 negative points.

Did the karma generation use anything for metavariant/types? I thought that would have been 0.

This may drop your total down a bit.

Karma cost for metatype is equal to the BP cost for the metatype. Let me see what I can figure up. I know reasonably well how to get the most BP from a Karma build and the most karma from a BP build.

Is that a house rule, or is there errata now for RC ?

Metavariants, like Formori, cost 2XBP in karma.
Certain qualities will change the character's base stats like the metagenetic strength making the softmax for a troll 10 instead of 9. This means instead of buying from 5-9 you're buying from 6-10 which costs 5 more karma per point or 20 more karma. The net change in bp is null.
The In Debt quality gives 30,000 more nuyen which can be used to buy another foci which is far more expensive to bind with karma than bp.

Edit: I did just realize that if I switch the Metagentic Improvement to Logic, I get 5 less karma from stats, but can get 9 more karma from free knowledge skills.. Net gain of 4 karma.

New High Score!
1028 karma

There is not an errata yet that I am aware of, but the German edition has been changed and the changes reported to us. Who knows if it will ever hit the English version and if it does will there be any differences.

It is in SR4A or so I keep hearing. It is also definitely in the German version of RC.


I've never heard this from anywhere.

Anyway, here you have it, the ultimate karma sink.


BP cost is 400. Karma cost is 1278.

Could have gotten a few more karma out of it if I had spent that last 50k on another Centering and Masking Foci, but decided not to for the sake of not having redundant foci. If you really want every last karma, change that out and you make the total cost go down by 8 karma then back up by 24, which brings the final cost up to 1294 karma. Hmm, and if you -really- wanted to you could trade the power focus in for a third set, and drop some more contact points and it would net you up to 1298 karma. Could also trade in the two weapon foci for two more masking foci to bring it up to 1302 karma, but then you've got 8 foci which are all of only two types which you can't use. I figure with the way I did it you at least have a marginally viable character (Though with basically no skills). Actually depending on the powers you get, running into this character could be -really- scary.

Build Point Conversions
For Karma-based character conversion, the costs for metatype
(or other character options, such as shapeshifters, free spirits,
AIs, etc.) and qualities are equal to twice the standard Build Point
cost (BP x 2) in Karma. When buying gear, each point of Karma
can be traded for 2,500 nuyen.

RC p42

That's probably where the confusion comes from..

Yeah, especially because under the actual rules for the karmagen system, it says that metatype doesn't cost anything.

Well, it is an 80 karma swing in either direction, meaning my build gets anywhere from about 1200 to about 1400 karma out of 400 BP, depending on if you go with no karma cost, regular karma cost, or double karma cost for metatype.

I don't have my book with me, but Karoline with genetic optimization couldn't you get that strength to 13 as you aren't maxing out the attribute?

Oh, yeah, should be able to hit 13 soft maxing it, kept loosing track of what was maxed to what. Okay, so add a point of Str to bring it up to 13 for a cost of 50/315 and take off 9/18 points from contact (making it a 1/1) and 1/2 points from equipment. Net gain of 45 karma, bringing it up to 1323 karma.

Edit: Now for fun I'm going to do the reverse and try to make a character that gets as much BP as possible out of the karma system

Okay, so looks like the best you can do is 750 BP from a 750 Karma character. I couldn't find anything that cost more BP than Karma. Start with human, raise all stats to 2, then grab every skill in the book (and chemistry and arcana, but no magic or resonance skills) which is 60 skills, and raise them all to 2 and spec them (minus exotic weapon and exotic vehicle), that brings you up to 676 karma spent at 1:1 ratio. Then you just grab more exotic weapon and vehicle skills at 2 until you reach 750. Drop a spec somewhere if you need to even the stuff out for 750 points.

Doesn't play well at all of course, but you do have a truest of true jack of all trades, with a DP of 4 in everything and alot of 6s floating around from specs.

I'm sure you could easily hit around 600 BP from a character that you'd actually play.

Conversation with a friend of mine, we tried to do the reverse of the OP: least karma needed for a 400 BP build. Which as it turns out is 400 karma equivalent. 2 in all stats, 1 + spec in all skills.

So, it looks like BP is more open to abuse. Sounds like a winning judgment for karmagen.

Well, not exactly. Remember that going from 400 BP to 750 BP is a 87.5% increase Going from 750 karma to 1323 karma is a 76.4% increase.

So in a way the karmagen system is more open to 'abuse' but it should be noted that the Max Karma character was far more viable in play than the Max BP character was. I'm not sure if you could quite manage at 76.4% increase of the BP cost of a character and still come up with a viable character. That'd be something like stats at 3s and a ton of skills speced at 3s. 6s for everything and spec'ed 8s just doesn't sound like it would cut it to me.

I figure as the numbers approach normal you start getting into your more viable characters. I'd imagine you could maintain around a 50% increase in the other system's max and create viable characters, and that would go either way. It is just one would always be a character with a bunch of maxed out stuff, and the other would always be a very rounded character, as can be seen from taking it to the extremes.

So it looks like karmagen produces more viable characters. Sounds like a winning judgment for karmagen.

Both systems are incredibly abusable, depending on how much book-fu you have. One encourages specialization, and getting the little shit with karma. The other encourages strength through diversity.

The thing that makes karmagen superior for me is that it produces more -flavorful- characters. In karmagen, getting 1 level of unarmed combat because you grew up with siblings unarmed combat is 4 karma, or 0.005% of your total. In BPgen, the same skill is four build points, or 0.01% of your total. Or a potential twenty thousand nuyen. Its even worse with with specializations, because they cost the same amount of points in both chargen systems.

Now ask yourself "Do I want to be able to punch my brother?" or "Do i want a car/bike with guns on it?".

Yeah. Given the type of players shadowrun attracts, that's why bp gen characters are min-maxed like hell.

Karma gen tend to produce characters that do not have minimal numbers. That does not mean that they are actually viable. Moderate numbers in all aspects is a sure way of dying last, but not a good way of making sure you are the last man standing. Sounds like a no-win judgement for karmagen

I agree very much. It is the fact that you can take those small oddball skills without worrying about it too much. You percentages are off though. It is 1% of your total for BP, and .53% for Karma. But more than the fact that it is half price in karma, is the fact that the same 1% BP expenditure could instead be raising a skill to 6, which would cost far more karma. BP is set up to encourage you to max out anything that you increase, because increasing it to max and from min are the same cost under BP, but much more expensive in Karma. Like you said, BP encourages you to 'get all the little shit' with karma after the game starts. This means you'll have a nice well rounded character about 50 karma into the game.



Karmagen certainly encourages more general spreading of your skills, but it certainly doesn't disallow being good at something. Keep in mind that getting a skill to 6 costs 24 BP or 44 Karma, which is slightly better than the 'golden' 2:1 BP:Karma ratio. Same thing occurs with stats unless you have a troll or something. Elf soft maxing charisma from 3 to 7 costs 40 BP or 110 Karma. That's worse than the 2:1 ratio, but still doable, especially since being an elf in the first place didn't cost as much.

What karmagen really discourages is trolls and bear shifters, and generally going over about 7 in any stat.

44/24 =1.8
750/400=1.875

It is only very slightly better than the actual BP:karma ratio. That is for skill.

110/40=2.75, in addition to the fixed exchange rate of 2:1 for race (if you charge for race). In both attribute and race, the BP:karma ratio is worse than the actual 1.875.

Karmagen does not disallow being good at something, but it does discourage you from being really good at something. To me being good is necessary to get you to the point where you can make use of what you are really good at. But if you got nothing you really good at, simply just being good doesn't cut it.

Hmmm, I thought karmagen didn't give free knowledge skills?

Free knowledge in BP => more karma "spent" in karmagen.

I find that the overall amount of points influences my choices more than the build system (although I play to a build system's strengths). I will get what I need in order to make my concept work, and then flesh it out with extras. If I had 500 build points, I would probably have a character with some quirks (for example, if he is a knife-throwing adept, maybe I will give him the artisan/woodcarving skill). If I had 600 Karma, the same character would probably have a more bare-bones assortment of skills.

With that said, Karmagen does encourage taking a rating: 1 skill or so. First, because it is cheaper, and second, because usually you will have a small amount of points left over, so you might as well get a low-rated skill or two. Not sure if this necessarily means the character is more "well-rounded", though, since those low-rated skills could just as easily be "get it at rating: 1 so I don't default" choices.

First off, race is only charged as equal to BP cost, not double, so you have a 1:1 ratio there.

Skills of 2 or less and specs have a 1:1 ratio.

Also, you can only get a single skill at 6. Skills of 4 have a 16 BP/22 Karma cost, which is much better than the 1.875 observed ratio.

Stats of 5 or less have a 2:1 ratio, and lower have better.

So really, the only place you see a worse than 1.875:1 ratio is high end stats, equipment, contacts, and qualities. Qualities doesn't really matter because that will generally be nilled out anyway, and if you're talking net negative, then you are talking an advantage for karmagen. Basically unless the book enforces a 2:1 ratio, then it'll usually be better than that in favor of karma.

I'm guessing you have alot of BP characters laying around. Try converting some of them to karmagen and see what you come up with as far as how much karma it cost you. Check before and after taking knowledge skills into account. I'm guessing you'll generally come up with a slightly higher karma cost, especially for non-human characters, but that will depend on if you focus on maxing stats and skill when building your BP characters, or try and balance them out more.

That isn't where the 'well rounded' comes from. Where it comes from is, in BP, you have two options. You can spend 4 BP to get a skill from 5 to 6, or you can spend 4 BP to get a skill from 1 to 2. In karmagen however, you can spend 12 karma to get from 5 to 6, or you can spend 4 karma to get from 1 to 2. This means that you can get a larger total skill rating by getting a good number of 2-4 grade skills. BP however has the same total skill rating by getting a ton of rating 1 skills, or a 6 and a few 4s.

Also keep in mind that if you spend the 4BP to increase a skill from 5 to 6, you save yourself 12 karma once gameplay starts, but if you raise a skill from 1 to 2, you only save 4 karma. Basically the system is entirely designed to get you to either not get something, or max it out. Anything inbetween is going to cost you in the long run. With karma though, you're always using karma, so there is no 'it'll cost you down the road'.

Ah, so race is at 1:1?

Elements in favor of karmagen: Race, skills and attributes below 5.
Elements in favor of BP: Skills and attributes above 5, equipment, contacts and qualities.

I am not disputing that there are characters that cost more in karmagen than in BP or vice versa. I am saying that if you want to have a higher certainty of success in a chosen field, then BP is better. Viability of a character lies both in having a good foundation as well as being able to reach higher than other people.


Yet in BP, due to defaulting, you will buy skill at 1 because if you do not, it becomes spend 10BP in attribute and have nothing to show for it due to defaulting or spend 4BPs in a skill or 10BPs in a skillgroup. You have to get something, you cannot not get it.

Well, when talking about getting skills above 5, I think you might be inappropriately pluralizing...

Especially because a skill of 6 is still slightly in favor of karmagen. Skills of 4 are also in favor of karmagen. Lower skills are even more in favor of karmagen. Really what you have is 6+ attributes, equipment, contacts, and net cost on qualities are in favor of BP. Everything else is in favor of Karmagen. And even those things which are in favor of BP are mostly not very much so, with the exception of particularly high attributes.

So, unless you want to make a troll with maxed strength and body, you're likely to end up better off with karmagen.

Just for fun, I grabbed one of my own characters I'd made with BP and converted it to Karma.



So, as you can see, despite the fact that she has several 5s in her stats, a skill at 6, and alot of skills at 4, and even paying for the knowledge skills, she comes out almost 100 karma cheaper. I think you're going to see this for any human. Like I keep saying, only in extreme examples and cases of maxing out a troll do you really run into BP being better.

Please remember..

According to the RAW in RC...

Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
First you must choose metatype or other alternative character
concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there is no
associated cost for metatype or race in Karma-based character
generation, but the BP cost should be noted as it is important
for Step 3, below. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and
p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new
character races in this book provide your character’s starting and
maximum attribute ratings.


-- There is no cost in the Karma system chargen for a metatype character.

There is *only* a cost if you are converting FROM the BP system to a Karma system (such as bringing in another character from another game, or decide to switch in the middle, etc).

If you read it carefully it states:

For Karma-based character conversion, the costs for metatype
(or other character options, such as shapeshifters, free spirits,
AIs, etc.) and qualities are equal to twice the standard Build Point
cost (BP x 2) in Karma. When buying gear, each point of Karma
can be traded for 2,500 nuyen.


Anything else is just a house rule.

Also if you look closely at the errata it states:

• Th e Karma Awards Table has been adjusted slightly as follows:
• Th e Karma cost of increasing Attributes has been raised from
(New Rating) x3 to (New Rating) x5

-- You will notice its karma awards, not karma generation.

And as of the last developer chat from Shadowrun Runner's Companion:

Tycho: Will the Karma Generation Rules will get an errata, because under current rules this "no BP for race" cause a little trouble.
Peter Taylor: The Karma Gen rules take into account the fact that raising Attributes with Karma means that it is prohibitively costly for
metahumans to raise certain Attributes to the levels possible with the BP system. The lack of racial cost does not affect
the fact that racial minimums and maximums are set and that only half your points may be spent on Attributes. That
said it is likely that a couple of other aspects of Karma Gen will be errata'd.

Rotbart_van_Dainig: What aspects of karma gen will be errata'd? Is is really intended that meta-variants, AIs, Free Spirits and sapient critters are free, too?
Peter Taylor: No the advanced character options will be given a "rarity" cost.

AdamJury Says:
December 30th, 2008 at 22:54:35
Omenowl: Unless Peter has changed his mind since the last time we talked, the point costs in Runner’s Companion are all correct.


-- So basically I am taking this as gold. Until I hear otherwise from the developers, anything else to me is just a house rule.

Okay, so the karmagen system is even more favorable than the BP system then if there is 0 cost for race. I was simply going off what I've been told several times appears in the german RC which was produced later and would thus have anything they'd intended to errata in it.

I'm also not sure what it says in SR4A, but was under the impression that it also called for the 1x cost in karmagen.

If you, or anyone else can link me to the german RC errata, I have 6 people at work here who speak perfect German and can translate, and I can then post the results 100% for the dumpshock forums.

But also, please be aware, that to my knowledge, the German rulebook is put out by a different company. Its either FanPro or WizKids. Its not Catalyst that does it for the other language.

So be aware, when you are reading errata in other languages, it is not coming from Catalyst possibly, but another maker/publisher that had recieved the rights to publish it in another language/country.

Given that the people who have told me that that is what it says in the German RC book live in Germany, and speak German as their native language, I'm willing to believe that they are able to comprehend a book written in German. And it isn't an errata, it is what is actually printed in the book itself.

I still can't pin down what it says in SR4A, as no one has come out and said "Yes, that is what SR4A says" or "No, that isn't what SR4A says" when I say "I think it says 1x race cost in SR4A".

I have just searched the SR4A PDF for the words "Karma", at no place in this edition does it state Karma generation costs, or the cost of buying race cost.

Now I could be mistaken, but the PDF search came up with like 72 instances of the word karma, and none were related to races. So unless this has been errata'd, is just hearsay unless I missed it.

I'm roughly 99% positive that SR4A has karmagen rules, because it changed them from the RC rules. How about actually reading through the Karmagen rules instead of doing a search for the keyword karma and then scanning to see if the word race appears next to it? It has to mention something about the karma cost for race, be that free, 1:1, or 2:1 or whatever. It has to say something.

They have not given us the errata the English version yet. While the German version is more recent, I think even post SR4A there is no proof to say they are going to use those rules in the English version. As I understand it there have been small differences before and there probably will be differences in the future.

Well, personally it is a rule I rather like, the 1:1 karma cost for race. It makes it cheaper to compensate for the increased price of raising stats, but it doesn't make it so that people pick high cost races just to get a bunch of free stats. After all, if you're not charging for race, there isn't much reason to not play either an elf or troll.

So, I've got SR4A IN MY HANDS and there are NO rules for Karmagen in it. Not in the index, not under Creating a Shadowrunner. I'll even double check, again....

Edit: Just finished going through it again, and there's no mention of even the Karmagen system, let alone changes to the rules.

Really? Weird, everything I'd heard seemed to indicate that they'd made changes to the karmagen system in SR4A. And I figured that meant more than just changing the karma advancement from attributes being 3x to 5x.

I think you're remember the SR4 -> SR4A changes that obviously impacted karmagen.

I am sure it was playtested, but it is not in the core 4A book. There have been talks of 4A errata that should be forthcoming for street magic, companion, and other books.

Except for the fact that BP is precisely for builds with such specialised performance, nobody denies that Karmagen is better for generalist builds.

My character with virtually nothing but maxed out skills/stats is a generalist? My character, who is a sniper specialist, is a generalist? I should also point out that under karmagen she would be even more specialized because she would have gotten the sniper rifle specialty, as well as several others, thus karmagen would have made her more specialized and less generalized.

Like I keep saying, BP is good at making trolls with maxed out body and strength, and that is about it, otherwise Karmagen is likely to give you the same character for a smaller price.

Even the enforcer archetype, with a Body and Strength of 9, comes out to about 749 in Karmagen*, and that is the German version (pay base racial cost in Karma points, Attributes use the x 5 multiplier). Karmagen has its limits, but you have to be maxing out more than one thing before you hit them.

*I gave him social skills for normal cost despite the Uncouth flaw, but only to keep it fair, since the BP version does that.

Edge, Will and Reaction aren't soft-maxed, with points allocated to Strength and Cha.

However, I would admit it seems that karmagen remains the powergame build system of choice. Interesting.

Okay, there is a difference between specialist, and min/maxed munchkin. And soft maxed edge isn't needed for either of those. Only thing a soft maxed edge does is push a build slightly in favor of the BP system.

Yes, there is a difference, but what I mentioned is not that. A min-maxed specialist is not a munchkin. A munchkin breaks the rules, a min-maxed character stays within the rules. A soft maxed edge helps to confirm the shot.