Does armor on cyberlimbs protect against attacks that don't specifically target that cyberlimb? If so, where does it say so?

I have always found this area of the rules kind of confusing. If for instance a Cyberarm only uses its Agility with tasks that specifically involve that arm, wouldn't it only use its Armor against attacks that target the arm? That makes sense to me, but I've seen talk on these forums that suggests otherwise.

Cyberlimb armor is averaged across all limbs (incuding cybertorso and cyberskull if applicable) and then added to worn armor to determine total armor. Called shots against a specific limb only use that limb's armor, I believe.

By RAW, it's not averaged, and it's not limited to specific attacks. It really is *that* much 'free' extra armor. Called shots are resolved as normal, which means your options are -4DP/+4DV, or -(Character's total armor)DP/Ignore armor.

Your GM may alter things with house rules.

Under SR3, it's averaged.
Under SR4, it all stacks.
deal with it.

Oh Stahlseele, you're just like that guy on The Guild, hehehe.

Who on the what now? @.@

He punctuates his sentences with 'Deal with it!' for no reason. It's a web TV show.

No offense meant, it just made me laugh when I read it.

Ah, i guess this is one of those american TV references i just don't get ^^
I am not easily offended ^^

What.

It....stacks......does not computer...does not compute.

I didn't know if it even COUNTED. Now you're telling me it STACKS? Does it stack with logically impossible things like Bone Lacing and Dermal Plating too for maximum ridiculousness?

The rules (almost) definitely don't specify. Is this clarified in an FAQ somewhere?

Yup. Definitely stacks, definitely no encumbrance, and yes, even with things that would be 'replaced' by the limb (no hit locations, you see).
These are specifically about half-limbs, but it's still clear. The GM-option to apply to 'direct tests' is a partial-limb rule, not a cyber-armor rule (and, of course, optional).

Some people choose to interpret the Encumbrance rules as applying to total armor, instead of just worn armor: "If either of a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that his Body x 2 is exceeded."

AFAIK, this is a house rule; the RAW seems to clearly refer to worn armor in context. *shrug* I prefer it myself, but I can't argue that it's RAW. It's certainly been debated here before, though. Remember that there's nothing wrong with house rules.

Repeat after me:
EVERYTHING GIVING ARMOR STACKS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE!
Deal with it.
Yes, Bonelacing and/or Bone Denisty stack with natural Dermal Plates, Bioware-Skin-Armor and Cyber-Limb-Armor, even when the complete Body has been replaced by Machine-Parts afterwards.
Deal with it.
And then comes worn Armor. Additionally.
Deal with it.

Yes, this allows people to do such silly things as BRICK the Troll that has 60 dice for amage Resistance.
As long as it's physical Trauma and not Magical or chemical or biological or something like that.

That is really dumb.

Thank goodness there is no one forcing me to follow those rules at my table.



Those two aren't even possible to combine champ. : P

Likewise between Bone Lacing and Bone Density it has to be an or, not an and. Those can't be combined either.

You forgot one word there.
NATURAL Dermal Plates.
Troll-Skin. Surge-Skin.
Only the advanced surge skin armor options differ.
SR3 had actually rules for this. They got scrapped in the transition to SR4 in the name of streamlining.
As for the Bone-Stuff:
That has never really been cleared up either, as far as i know.
And which Bonus counts in what case wasn't either i think . .

AFAIK, it's because there are no hit locations. Bone mods affect you as a whole, giving the bonus. Cyber-armor affects you as a whole, giving the bonus. Etc. There's no question of, 'did the bullet hit my cyberarm, so it only gets the cyber bonus?' The bullet hit 'you'. :/

Now, the easy fix is to use the rule-interpretation I mentioned: Encumbrance kicks in when your total armor exceeds Body*2, ignore sources. 'Armor' spell explicitly is an exception to this, which seems fine. You can also allow other exceptions, as you and your group prefer: Troll/SURGE dermal deposits, etc.

I thought it was for called shots. Cyberlimb armor. I thought it was just for called shots. : /

Okay, I don't have a reference for this and I am almost sure I don't have time to get one but I am 90% sure that canonical 4th Edition NPCs from published adventures DO NOT have their cyberlimb armor totaled this way.



If you are talking about Bone Lacing and Bone Density how they stack is irrelevant because they cannot be combined.

No, they're talking about stacking bone mods with cyberlimbs; the idea is, there's no bone inside the cyberlimb.

I'm of the opinion that stat blocks are totally untrustworthy.

Yes, there is no bone inside the cyberlimb. Hence attacks that target the cyberlimb or that just target 'you' should get either the bone bonus or the cyberlimb bonus, not both. Maybe whichever's higher. Maybe average them. But not BOTH.

Common sense, right?




Ohhh......

It doesn't exactly measure up as common sense if you unabstract an absract armor system for one specifig think.

It's easier if you think of it 'fairly': attacks targeting your foot get the armor bonus from your helmet, while attacks on your stomach get the armor bonus from your bone augmentations. Your armor jacket blocks bullets hitting your mouth, and your cyberarm resists bullets that hit your chest.

There is no hit location system. Called Shots do very specific things, unless the GM invents new ones. Adding +4DV or avoiding armor is the *abstract* no-location system of hitting weak spots.

Yeah, everybody will shoot at eyes, mouth, nose and ears otherwise . .

That's okay, I got the Protective Covers on my eyes. Sigh.

You can, of course, work with the GM to do specific things: kneecap someone, etc. There are perfectly good roleplaying reasons for this, and the GM should work out a fair way to do it. But the shot will still be against their whole-body armor rating.

It helps if you stop thinking in terms of bodies and locations.

It's a modifier of your total armor rating.




-karma

Yes, i know this.

Armor and such is all abstracted. It's about removing vulnerability. You've got an arm that's made with an inch thick coating of military-grade composite armor, then that's over 9% of the body which can completely shrug off small arms fire.
Something like coating your skeleton with metal might still matter in the fact that the cybertorso is just a shell so the metal rib and spine cage should still be doing about as much good as they ever could. I mean, you're not really expecting a bullet to tear through your leg, hit the bone and bounce off harmlessly. It's still tearing through you leg. Damage is done. So, the added protection of having vertebrae which won't shatter and ribs which won't crack still matters, just like the massive essence loss you took to acquire such benefits still matters.

Now, you might ask yourself why it is that game designers would let someone get these massive armor bonuses from cyber replacements, and to that I can only shake my head.

Robocop. It's because Robocop is fucking awesome.
If you make a cyberpunk game and you can't build Robocop in it, then you have been derelict.

That's another point, Saint Sithney, that Stahlseele alluded to: you pay full Essence and Nuyen for the Bone Lacing, so you get full benefit. In SR3, you paid reduced costs, but you reduced the benefit (IIRC) when factoring out cyberlimbs.

HAHAH! Awsome.

In other news: it should be noted that partial limbs' armor only adds 1/2 the rating to actual armor. It's a moot point, but it's a point.

Only if you're using the Changes Document, but *not* the FAQ, which specifically addresses that line in the Changes Document. Sigh.

Urm.. Would you mind clarifying? That sounds confusing, and I'm sure I don't have at least some of that information available to myself.

I dunno if I can clarify further. Your statement is true, but only if you're using the Changes while also *not* using the FAQ; the FAQ specifically negates that rule in the Changes.

So they add full rating?

I'm going to play a 6-armed ork with 6 partial arm replacements, 2 partial leg replacements, a chest and a head, all with R4 Armor.

40 armor. Then I can wear armor in addition. Make it a troll for another +1. And so on.

Well, FAQ are NOT Erratta and these FAQs have been proven wrong on several other Points
In my 3 Groups we're also using the 1/2limb=1/2Armor Rule

with Half a Dance
Medicineman

Do what makes you happy. I was only pointing out the mess, not endorsing it.

Shure I do and its good that somebody is pointing that out.
But because the Cyberarmorrules could be Brocken if Misused, its better to use the
1/2Limb=1/2Armor Rule (ImO)

HokaHey
Medicineman

How much essence is that?
And remember, i have gone there way before you.
Remember Binky ^^
And how in the 9 Hells is high Armor broken?
Armor does shit to guard you from Gas.
Or poison. Or magical damage.
Like from the broken stun spells . .

Luckily there no need to use the FAQ, as that crappy rule isn't anywhere in the actual SR4A book.

And how in the 9 Hells is high Armor broken?
Broken if misused !!

He who dances in 9 Hells
Medicineman

i ask again:
HOW is it broken?
So you have someone who is inpervious to bullets and being hit . .
so you don't try to do that. There's so many ways to take out something like that.
Also, with the Cost, especially in essence, it is even LESS broken . .

Of course half-limbs don't have the value of armor mods. They simply have only half as much capacity with which to buy armor.

Bones in cyberlimbs: that does seem odd. On the other hand, a cybertorso doesn't mean your internal organs get cyberfied either, so there's some grey territory there..

Actually cyborgs are somewhat screwed in that regard; they're only a brain in a jar, but at 0.1 Essence they can't even buy Cerebral Boosters anymore!

Why not?
Biocompatibility and other such jokes should let them do some stuff with that.
Type-O System too, and then there's Nano and Gene-Tech options available.

Doesn't change the fact that they STILL only have less than 0.1 Essence to put more implants in. Even at maximum Essence Cost Reduction, how much can be crammed into 0.09 Essence?

Technically, I suppose you might be able to cram as much headware into the brain as possible BEFORE you perform the CCU conversion surgery - the cyborging process isn't a set Essence cost, it just sets your Essence rating to 0.1 from whatever it was before.

Still, compare that to a Deltaware samurai. The sammie will be able to cram a TON more augmentation in than a cyborg.

It's counter-intuitive, but true.



-k

What IS counter-intuitive is the simple fact, that a single brain in a jar STILL has 0,1Essence LEFT to begin with . .
Try and do that going with cyber-replacement only . . see when you come into negative essence numbers.
And then compare what's really there . .

Stahlseele, I've never said that high armor was broken. If you remember, I helped Ragewind stack up near the 300's for armor.

Also, depending on certain factors, a full-replacement will actually have more Essence than a cyborg. Full delta-grade, Suite, Adapsin, Biocompatability. You'd still have a decent chunk left.

No you did not say that.
I never claimed you did ^^

I really think borgs should have more essance or they should have special rules regarding head ware and the CCU. I mean you could always have a cyborg cyberzombie and with all the head ware in the books could likely make it quite good at rigging ect but it seams a little extrema though it would be a massive "FUCK YOU!" to mages background count and no mana spells and armoured out of the arse.

Unless the GM is specifically being forced to counteract your minmaxing (or whatever you like to call it) by increasing their prevalence, gas, toxins, and even magic are all going to come up much less often than simply being shot at or bludgeoned. I think IMMUNITY TO PHYSICAL DAMAGE is fairly broken in any game setting.

In fact, Armor should just cap at 20 for PCs. The end. Maximum armor is 20.

(We are no longer discussing RAW, I know, and have entered into the realm of opinion.)

Ok, just making sure. Somehow I gained that impression by your posts.

Um... The Ares Super-Squirt is completely legal, fairly easy to get, and only deals toxins. Gas grenades are extremely prevalent, and cheaper and more effective than bullets - not to mention more PR-friendly. Splash Grenades follow the same concept.

Just because your table resorts to bloody violence more frequently than logical Pepper Punch/Narcoject gas grenades does not mean that other tables don't use the rules as presented to the fullest.

Also, if Max Armor = 20, then getting into most vehicles will cap your armor immediately. In fact, why would you ever get out of your Horseman with a Rigger's Coccoon?

Especially considering that pepper punch grenades are completdly legal, so you can walk around the city with pile of them in your pockets and have no worry about cops.

COMPLETE IMMUNITY TO PHYSICAL DAMAGE is only Broken in a Game where there is only Physical Damage.
In Shadowrun, there are more kinds of Damage between heaven and earth than you can shake a stick at.
Furthermore, even if you have that damn much dice you have, you are still likely to take stun damage, when the ammount is big enough.
Especially due to more stun damage coming your way, when your armor is that damn high to begin with.

Given that the actual 4A rulebook does not have this change anywhere, I'd assume the FAQ is correct


Just out of curiosity, how much does a helmet add?