I hope you are as happy with dealing with my force 12 mana bolt that kills the tank on pass one. Deal with that! If you spend all of that to be indestructible i hope you are as happy when you are full bursted with stick and shock rounds 15S plus successes Electric with ap half your 40 armor to 20. Or narcoed with darts only takes 2 successes for 10 stun each no armor.
Ok I delt with it...

Jakephillips, who are you arguing against? Stahlseele's point is precisely that bullet-immune isn't the same as everything-immune. He agrees with your manabolt. He's not 'bragging' about 'his' troll tank.

I, on the other hand, don't agree that a bullet-immune character is balanced just because magic or toxins could hurt him. It *could* really skew the game, because the game expects bullets to be a threat. It's not automatically destroying every possible game, but it does distort things and force the GM to specifically compensate. That's all.

Though any none bullet threat to the tank is an equal threat the rest of the team they tend not to be overly picky. Manabolt will kill most things and toxins are a nice leveler unless one PC is immune to some.

Yeah, there isn't many reasons for a security team to use bullets, when mix of pepper punch and a neurostun gas grenades will take out the intruders no matter how much armor their wearing, unless they're wearing gas mask they will go down for the count. If you wanna make extra sure, just add a breath taker gas grenade in to the mix.

Yes, the problem is, to me, those measures are rather extreme when applied to the rest of the characters. They do not provide the same smooth damage/disabilty curve as standard firearms. And it is not like the security guards would switch to their pistols when attacking the unarmored characters. They're not going to knowingly do somthing less effective.

I feel like throwing pepper punch, neurostun, and breath taker at the PCs is a sure way to get them caught or dead. In the campaign I've been running in the past two years, which has spanned only three players but about a dozen characters, no one has taken any filtration, gas mask, chemical seal, or similar options unless I've specifically thrust it upon them. From this sample, and chatter I've seen online, I feel that these chemical protection systems are not common character options. And if the PCs do survive long enough to learn they need this stuff, than the guards are right back to using regular weapons which make the hypothetical trank (troll tank) unstoppable.

If I just add Stick'nShock it means the trank will take SOME damage. It also still has the problem of making the other PCs go down PROPORTIONALLY faster, which is even worse than the gas option (where everyone goes down and loses right away).

Of course, the fact that the trank is not even close to being a valid starting character build, requiring five availability twenty items, makes this much less of a practical concern for me. The chance that a brick type character (played straight) would survive/succeed long enough to install all that 'ware in my campaign is pretty slim. But in the realm of hypotheticals, I think that the character with 40 points of armor provides a serious game balance problem.

It is not solved by gas/toxins because they will kill (KO obviously equals kill-or-worse in a Zero Zone type environment) EVERYONE just as fast OR they will just be immune to it, with very little middle ground and no damage curve.
It is not solved by Stick'n'Shock because it will kill NON-TRANK PCs even FASTER.

Depends on campaign and players, I've been in some games where every player had some form of chemical seal or protection.

I know, but the presence of that also doesn't solve the problem because then everyone is just immune to toxins.

With toxins there is extremely little middle-ground between 'immune' and 'dead' and hence it provides a very bad damage CURVE. Unless the GM wants to go crazy with house rules and say something like "Toxin Extractors and Tracheal Filter are allowed but Chemical Seal, Gas Mask, Internal Air Tank, etc. are not". (Further sidenote: I just noticed how overpriced Toxin Extractor and especially Tracheal Filter are.)

Again, the fact that countermeasures exist doesn't make the armor-tank any less powerful in comparison to normal PCs. It's not like he's extra-vulnerable to magic (besides, he's an Astral Hazing Fomori, right?), or extra-vulnerable to toxins, or extra-vulnerable to SnS. He's equal to 'normals', plus physical-immune.

This can absolutely mess up a game, unless the GM is very careful, and puts forth significant extra effort. This is true for any hyper-powered character, and I'm certainly not saying the armor-tank build is unique in that way.

Yerameyahu has succinctly summed up what I was saying, with less reliance on individual examples.

You know, it occurs to me that one of the places you technically can see cyberarmor is on vehicles possessing mechanical arms.

It wouldn't be hardened, though, which I guess could cause a rules oddity. I suppose if you wanted to allow the cyberarmor it would just work normally, save that only the vehicular armor rating would be used when checking to see if the round "bounces" from the hardened armor effect.




-k

That really surprises me, since a rebreather-gas mask is an excellent way to break facial recognition software, plus it has an added benefit of being there when the runners use said gasses.

So, the next question is whether it's too cheap (in Nuyen, Essence, BP, etc.) to do this kind of cyber-armor tank. It's annoying to make the GM simply disallow things ('no, that cyber-tank would seriously imbalance the group') when you can build the trade-off right into the rules: 'no, that build would use up too much of my character resources to be attractive'.

Obviously, getting 4 (5, 6, … 12?) cyberlimbs isn't the easiest thing to do, so there *is* that trade-off already in place. Is cyber-armor too cheap? Should the GM simply enforce encumbrance on cyber-armor (although, that's what the Troll's Body is for)? Etc. I know this has been discussed a fair bit before, but since we're already here…

Seriously, Doc Chase. In a world with microscopic cameras everywhere and rampant air pollution, why *wouldn't* you wear a mask?

KarmaInferno, I'd just rule that adding an armored limb doesn't make the original vehicle any more armored. If anything, it adds a new weaker spot. You're right that it's another one of those not-really-considered rules interactions.

"Because to the breeders we all look the same anyway . . "
And for the first time in shadowrun history, cyber-limbs are VIABLE!

Because you have nothing to hide, right?

Right?

Except that it makes you stand out like a sore thumb on the way to/from the job in question, is incompatible with social infiltration/social engineering/just fucking lying-through-your-teeth-to-get-in, and you have to actually remember the step of putting it on/taking it off on the way in/out, but still, it is a pretty sweet piece of gear.

Incidentally, I am not saying cyberlimb armor is too cheap. I think the costs are FAIRLY balanced. I think the problem is that when it is achieved, it is totally balance-fucking because you have one player who is functionally immune to all firearms/melee damage and the rest who aren't.

Does it? SR 2072 is a place where color-changing mohawks, programmable tattoos and cosmetic body mods make one fit in rather than stand out.

In Mexico City Azzieland, they make varied and wonderful looking rebreathers, since the smog is so thick it's served with a side of pico de gallo. The same can quite nearly be said for any major SR city. You and I may not typically play it up, but rebreathers are more mainstream in SR than we really realize.

One can always carry it in their duffel/purse/trenchcoat and pop it on before wandering inside, too.

It depends on what the mask looks like. And again, pollution. (Ack, ninja'd by Doc, I'm so slow. )

I always assumed that the standard ('Oh shit seattle's air is toxic') civilian rebreather was much more like this whereas a full hardcore gas mask was much more like this. Of course I run campaigns where subtlety and raw effectiveness are usually inversely related, and you have to find the sweet spot on the curve.

*shrug*

YMMV.

Given the miniaturization of 2070, the Respirator may well be a thin mouth/nose cover, but the Gas Mask does specify 'full face'.

I see rebreather masks about that size, but with little filters on each end near the edge of the mouth to get rid of those icky gases. Gas mask is dead on, though.

Well actually that works perfectly with my 'subtlety vs. brute force' curve because the respirator and gas mask are very different devices.

Runners always wearing respirators is much more believable than runners always wearing this.

Depends on the runner. They're already wearing FFBA, PPP, supergoggles, radar/all sensors, chameleon suits, and have emotitoys on their shoulders.

It would be fun to play with a team that was anything like that, but my players are really really far from the optimization/max. efficiency/crunch side of the spectrum, as it happens.

Anyway, /derail.

Could not agree more, but for some reason in the world of shadowrun they still use guns... must be some fluff reason why multi billion corps use guns if they don't work on most pros.

I agree with you just "deal with it" defense of all RAR rubs me the wrong way. I just don't see how someone who spends all of that time engeneering the most armored guy ever is going to have fun laying on his back because of a dart gun or squirt that double taps stun damage.

That's why he buys full-chemseal milspec armor.
No Astral-hazing Fomori cybertank should be without it!

I do think full cyborg armor changes the balance of the game. But it doesn't have to wreck the game.

By the time the tank is getting complete, the other characters will have increased in power as well. Some may have gone for defense, others for offense, ultra-stealth etc. Mages will have initiated a couple of times and are summoning big spirits.

Quite simply, by that time the team is ready to play big leagues.

None of my campaigns have ever reached that level of power (mostly due to not getting to play that often) so we are now firmly outside my realm of expertise.

No player should be without Neraph's ™ Brand Survival Gear!


Also, don't forget your Elite Evo HEL suit!


Also, I always figured respirators to look like this, or possibly this.

As an old boy scout i salute your list. But I really hope your characters don't really carry all that around in the back of their car.

Um... Do you know a better location for it?

Actually, the most likely stuff to be used is in the trunk, the rest of it is in the Lifestyle.

EDIT: By the by, it's the best gear 2 BP can buy. Well, best survival gear 2 BP can buy.

I agree on the 2nd set, on the 1st I prefer armor with a little more armor to it. But i'm down with the concept, sadly you need milspec to get close to that kind of capacity. Well baring layer I'm sure you could do it that way.

Form-Fitting Body Armor full suit + Armor Jacket + SecurTech PPP = 45 armor modification slots.

Mostly due to the stupid "minimum 6 slots per armor piece" rule.

30 slots if you do the sane thing and count the PPP armor as a single suit.

Either way, it allows you to pretty much duplicate anything the environmental armors have, plus more.

And all this can look like ordinary clothing, with an armor rating of 16/14.

Encumbrance can be a factor, though.



-k

With FFBA Full armor , Evo HEL suit, and vitals protector, you have 11/9 armor treated as 8/8 for encumberance. Is that better?

EDIT: And since it's all skin tight you should be able to wear it under most baggy clothes.

Maybe according to the rules, but not in my campaign. : )

(I have no problem with combining FFBA and anything but the idea of someone putting a trenchcoat or whatever on over a (tricked out) environmental suit and a bulky cod-piece is very silly to me. I mean, you put a 1-HOUR AIR SUPPLY in the HEL suit. It is not skin tight any more.)

You can put more than 1 hour of air supply in your body. In a suit it is still skintight.

Besides, the Ninja Turtles could wear trenchcoats and hats and their shells were waaaaay more bulky than Shadowrun armor.

Rule of cool wins here.

Your body actually has more room than a skintight suit.

Also I don't know about black leather vs. pink mohawk but Shadowrun is definitely NOT heroes in a halfshell.

The TMNT would actually work very well under Shadowrun rules, especially the original Eastman/Laird versions.



-k

It is a 3000 yen jumpsuit. That's pretty high tech right there, and it's got 5 slots which suggests less room for extra bits than even a bullet-proof vest, which the fluff says is easily concealed under the clothes. I'd let the PJs fit about as well as thermals. It's not like it would stack with a longcoat or anything like traditional FFBA funderware.

Though I wouldn't allow a person to increase an existing armor mod like Neraph's done. Everywhere else in SR, you have to buy up from the ground. You want to increase the armor on your GMC Bulldog from 8 to 9, you can't buy 1 armor and nail it to the side. You have to buy 9, strip the mother and replace everything. Gun comes with GV2, you have to buy a GV3, you can't buy a GV++.

Wait, what? Are you saying it's impossible to buy Fire Protection 6 for something that has Fire Protection 4? If you notice I did pay the whole price for each full upgrade, including the difference in slots.

Now, vehicles and drones state that you don't get slots back for removing modifications, but armor doesn't state that.

Very true also capaoisty in all armor even milspec is an OPTIONAL rule so slots don't matter by RAW.

General mod rules say it.



Just saying, I choose to. I also allow commlinks to be modified with stuff like "Modular electronics" and "fuzzy logic."

Personal choice is all. No reflection on your game, just most people who play with limits on armor mods specifically do so to nix the +6 resist to everything shenanigans that exist without mod rules. If you want to just go around that, then just don't use mod limits. No biggie. Personally imposing limits just so that you can try and find a loophole around them seems kind of a waste of your mental energies..

If you want to house rule cyberlimb armor (i.e. limit armor rating by coverage) and do not want to gimp partial-cyberlimbs by having to pay more capacity for the same effect, then why not simply modify the MAX ratings accordingly?

Full cyberlimbs (incl. cyberskull and -torso) can have 4 points of armor installed max (cybertorso should actually offer more protection, if anything, but that's another topic)
Partial cyberlimbs can have 2 points of armor installed max
Cyberhands / -feet can have 1 point of armor installed max

Bye
Thanee

That seems the sanest approach.

You don't get slots back for removing STANDARD upgrades, meaning stuff that the vehicle comes stock with.

You can certainly add a user modification and later remove it and get the slot back.




-k