That's because each of the new powers is restricted to a particular Way. So one could argue that it's already discounted, or maybe it represents some advanced power of the Way, or whatever.

I believe the first option is the correct one.



As long as you spend the same amount of points in the end, you're getting exactly the same benefit. Choosing to discount powers you don't intend to spend a lot on is a bad bargain, but it's not the system's fault .

You're so wrong. I explained it earlier: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1065413
a Warrior (and Artisan) can discount his Imp Reflex III to save one full powerpoint (cost reduced from 4 to 3), no one else can even slightly get so much in return. The best thing an Athlete for example can do, is get Pain Resistance 6 for 6*0.5*0.75=2.25 instead of 3 points cost

Isn't it usually assumed that you add the percentages up before substrating them from the total?
So not 100%-25% and then 75(now the new 100%)-25%=56,25% left but 100%-50%?

I'd rule that the "Way Bonus" is, effectively, a specialized version of Geas and not allow them to stack. Same with the Biocompatbility from Burnout and from Edges -- they should not stack. I'm not sure if that's RAW, since I didn't see anything about it specifically in the PDF.

It's less "perfect" math but easier and makes easy numbers

But your two examples have you spending different amounts of points in each case, don't they? Adept A gets a 4-point power and pays 3. Adept B got a 3-point power and paid 2.25. If he had gotten a 3 point power and another 1-point power, he'd save the same amount, paying 3 on the lot. Proportionally, they saved exactly the same amount - 25%. If they spend the same, they'd have "saved" exactly the same amount. It's how percentages work .

Also, don't look at the powers in isolation. I figure any adept whose player bothers to pay for this supplement is going to have enough Magic to get a discount on multiple powers. Mr. Athlete is bound to be able to sink the same amount of points in his favored powers as the others can sink into theirs (and why would an Artisan need increased reflexes for, anyway?).

we have to "look at the powers in isolation" as there is a realistic cap of 3 discountable powers in total as Magic 8 is not really worth discussing here. Although 2 is more reasonable, as many adepts start with Magic 5. SO while the percentage is ofc the same, no one is interested in it. What you want is a good absolute discount.

example:
A Warrior with Magic 5 can get ImpReflex3 and Combat Sense 5 for 4.875 instead of the original cost 6.5. That's 1.625 powerpoints saved.
My Invisible One, can only discount Traceless Walk and Improved Ability Infiltration 3 for a total saving of 0.4325 powerpoints.
If both increase their Magic to 6, the Warrior can increase Combat Sense to 6 and get Killing Hands for another 0.25 points saved and a total of 1.875. While my Invisible One can get and discount Rush and Great Leap 1, for a new total saving of 0.6825


Artisan includes Driver-Adepts, they need imp refl for Meatpiloting.

It is hard to compare the point discount for the Warrior's Way with that of any other Way, since no other Way can spend so many Magic points in so few powers. For example, Improved Reflexes costs 1.5/2.5/4 points, and no other power matches that cost for so few levels. Improved Ability is .5/level for combat skills (Warrior's Way) and .25/level for anything else. Remember also, "The maximum level an adept may have in any power is equal to the adept’s Magic attribute" (SR4A, p. 195), so it's hard for any other Way to stack up the points in a single power to get the same savings that the Warrior's Way does.

A Warrior with 4 Magic can conceivably start with 5.25 Magic worth of powers (there's no .33-cost power) or, as your example gives, a Warrior with 5 Magic can start with 6.5 Magic worth of powers.
Most other Ways with 4 Magic can start with 4.5 Magic worth of powers (two level-4 powers at .25/level, discounted to .75 each), or with 5 Magic can start with 5.625 Magic worth of powers (two level-5 powers at .25/level).

It's interesting that of all the Ways, only the Totem's Way has a different BP cost (15 instead of 10). I wonder if they meant to make Warrior's Way cost 15 BP as well...and perhaps they should. Or instead of the discount, raise the maximum level allowed for list powers normally capped at (Magic) to (Magic x 1.25), but give less or no discount.

I'm also surprised they left Improved Physical Attribute (Agility) off of the Invisible Way's list, since so many of its relevant skills are Agility-based. I can see the point of trying to make lists unique, but IPA (Reaction) is on the Artisan's list, and IPA (any) is on the Athlete's list.

I guess the discounts are pretty good. An adept with 6 magic can get up to 7.75 power points out of it, as long as he only spends 0.75 PP outside his way.

Then again, that's only .75 PP you can spend outside your way if you want to maximize the benefit.

I haven't been able to get the book yet, can someone fill me in on what, in general at least, is "the Totems way"? Is that another term for "The Shamanic Way" from Street Magic?

That seems to be the case, as far as I can tell.

Wouldn't the maximum benefit be squeezing all 6 PP into 3 powers from your way and getting 8 PP's worth out of it?
8.0 * 0.75 = 6.0

That's the limit as you buy smaller and smaller increments (down to 1/infinity). I guess since you don't quite need the full 0.25 PP for abilities in your way that would generally cost 0.25, you might be able to squeeze a tad more out. But 8.0 shouldn't be possible.

edit* Ah, nevermind. I was thinking of it as getting bonus points, but since it's a discount from the start, I guess you really can do that.

I'm a little disappointed that the adept powers from Digital Grimoire weren't given any mention. Power Swimming in particular would go so very well with the Athlete's Way.

If you were a Swimmer, Maybe.

But what about a Pole Vaulter?
Or a Baseball Player?
Or a Boxer (Probably a Warrior's Way Adept though)?
Oh, or how about a Speed Skater like Apollo Ono?

Not quite so useful for them...

I think the real question is how long are you going to play your campaign? In a long term 50+session game 1 year every week or 2 years every other week. Adepts surpass Sams because of the increased top side of their powers. I have a magic 9 adept in my game who had to buy his magic up from 6 and he is the only guy in my game with 4 passes + combat sense + elf reaction of 9 or 10 and combat skills for shooting and stabbing at 16+ dice. Very dangerous and much easier to get through security with masking with all that power. At the jump adepts are in an overall sense underpowered as a generalists but can outshine Sams in their speciality but in the LOOOOONG game they are more powerful. I think the adepts way just adds some early bang for the buck.

How dose Confidence Man work on ally PCs? giving them an additional hit? adding 3 or 4 dice?

It moves them one spot better on the Buying Hits table (core book, p. 62), essentially given them one "extra" hit.

Adepts still need to take masking and centering to be on top of things. It's not like it's the only choice on initiation.

Besides, remember SR4 where raising magic was the new stat x3 instead of x5? That SR4a change hurt adepts more than any other archetype. That optional rule is the little blue pill that lets an adept get his PPs up. If you want to limit it to only be taken once, it's still better than the alternative of making it part of basically every adepts regular advancement to buy a Synaptic Booster to free up the points used by Increased Reflexes.

For those powers that raise attributes, both the old ones and the new ones, it says that the cost is doupled after you go over you natural maximum.
If you also get a pice of ware that raises the same attribute, at witch order do those raises take effect, does the power raise the attribute first or the ware.

Did this adept take any 'ware? The only reaction enhancements that stack are reaction enhancer with wired reflexes, so a sammy can get higher reaction, and most likely initiative. The improved attribute power is really expensive even before reaching your natural maximum, and 'ware is going to reduce your magic by 1 point for every 1 or 2 attributes you augment heavily.

Also, I think a sammy can find some way to outshine the adept using that 168 karma the adept spent between magic and initiation.

Synaptic Booster is a better choice than Increased Reflexes either way. It is a separate problem that you may or may not wish to deal with.

Easy fix for the Ways: Remove the "only 3 powers get the discount" BS. Well-rounded adepts should not be penalized, and my social or infiltration adept should not have to take the Warrior's Way to get the best bang for his buck (Imp. Reflexes is EXPENSIVE!).

Also, PP instead of metamagic is not only NOT overpowered, it's frelling NECESSARY for adepts to be viable in a post-Att*5 world.

Two quick things on that thought: The limitation on the number of powers available was included after getting playtest feedback from my early draft, because many of them felt it was overpowered initially (in other words, for what my opinion's worth, I'm all for removing the discount cap). And second, don't forget Walking the Ways as a means of opening up additional discounts (any powers you want).

I can't seem to find anythink like that mentioned anywhere in the PDF, ofcource i may just be blind.

Oh, awesome. I just checked again, and apparently it got cut at the last minute. Well, in theory, there was another Quality called "Walking the Ways" that was available in addition to your Way and hypothetically cost 10 BP, and let you pick another (Magic/2) discounted powers of your own choosing. That was there to let some of the "outside the box" concepts through; characters who definitely still fit one Way's mentality, but had powers from a different (like an Athlete that fought MMA bouts, an Invisible Way guy who was an under-the-radar flying panzerjock, or Speaker who felt all combat was based on body language, or what-have-you).

I'm...not thrilled that it got pulled. So, yeah. Sorry.

Well, we found the fault in the release and can now get a good, proper hate on, like Dumpshock should!

Get you pitchforks and torches right here! Special price, just for today!

I figure most folks around here already have their own

I prefer an entrenching tool to a pitchfork myself.

E-Tools are great weapons... So much better than a Pitchfork...

Can we consider this post a Dumpshock-only web supplement supplement?

Not always. Getting a R3 booster takes a chunk of essence with it, and Adepts use their magic for more than just points.
It's also the max level you can take a power. That does effect some builds. Not terribly many though, since you don't see too many powers you want to take over 3. To echo your sentient, that's a separate problem.

Exactly. You can bury "things" after you're done.

And, you know, dig trenches as well.

Yes but you'll have to pay CGL $1 to be allowed to use it.

I'm thinking it might be easier and cheaper for CGL to actually charge for extra BP/Karma rather than publishing such books. (No offense to the writer(s) but I hate these "pay $x for a y% boost of your character with little to no impact on the rest of the game" books)

Simple solution: Don't buy them if you don't like them. I enjoy the fluff as much as the crunch. Myself, I was glad to see them revisit the Ways and flesh them out with a mechanical benefit, regardless of how good or bad that benefit may be. It presents another option, and I'm all for that. As always, a GM can limit or eliminate those option.

I'm too damned much of a fanboy to say no.

Now that I know what they're like, I won't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b60OZhrTB6o

Yep... Can't leave any evidence laying around, after all...

hahaha... I have to get one of these ... very nice!

Better than the NATO issue right now, that's for sure.

I prefer my 1950s-era German-Surplus.

They left out the most important function one where the sharpened edge is a major detriment (I would never consider keeping it that sharp, even in the video the demonstrators almost lose a finger or two on several occasions), field expedient toilet seat, the perfect companion to dropping a deuce in the field.

I noticed that there is very little in the way of combat ability for Invisible Way adepts. I guess this is as it should be for most Invisible Way adepts, but what about those characters who follow the Way of the silent assassin, mentioned in the Invisible Way section in SM? Would the "Walking the Ways" thing mentioned above be appropriate for something like that, or would a different sort of tweak be more fitting?

I was wondering why there wasn't any specific limitation to those oddball adepts who walk more than one path.(by paying the points for them)

Yeah, sounds like something that would have been covered by 'walking the way' as it would let you pick a couple other powers to get a discount on, like maybe improved ability unarmed combat or killing hands or something similar.

Also, without reading it it sounds like the options are fairly balanced. You pay 10 BP for a 25% discount on ~3 powers. That's the same cost as raising your magic, which would give you 1 PP, and it would require you to spend roughly 4 PP on those discounted powers to save 1 PP. It maybe isn't an exact match up because there are limits to how high you can get your magic and such, but it is also going to be hard to spend that many PP in so few powers for the most part.

On the other hand, I also don't see the problem with the 'initiation gives PP instead of metamagic' option since there are only about 5 metamagics even available to adepts, much less actually useful ones, and the cost of a PP otherwise is beyond reason.

I really do not get Why people continue to perpetuate this myth...

I count 15 Applicable Adept Metamagics, Two of which may be taken multiple times....

Basic Metamagics:
Adept Centering
Attunement - Animals (Multiple Times)
Attunement - Items (Multiple Times)
Centering
Cognition
Divining (If Adept has Astral Perception)
Flexible Signature
Masking
Psychometry (If Adept has Astral Perception)
Sensing
Somatic Control

Advanced Metamagics:
Empower Animals
Extended Masking (Weapon Foci only, obviously)
Flux
Infusion

Retort.

Want! Need! Got one I can borrow?