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Snow_Fox
The world of Shadowrun has always been proudly dystopian with humanity being gorund under various forces(Mega corps,policlubs, anarchic gangs, toxic mages, bug spirits,AI, Horrors) that are at best uncaring and at worst activily hostile towards humanity, seeking to enslave, destroy or corrupt them. against this seems to be athin line of humanity, often these are Shadowrunners who are sometimes Robin Hoods, sometimes just mercinary hoods.

But yet humanity survives and even seems to thrive. so is there some higher power hidden in the wings? some greater force for good supporting metahumanity or is it just our indominable spirit?

Cannonically Dunkelzahn could be seen as such and he tried to motivate elder powers to act for good, he actions even living on from beyond the grave. At the risk of offending Christians, he willingly sacrified himself (to destroy the Horrors) so that metahumanity might live on. But is there more out there? a higher power for good that might serve to, if not take a direct hand in things, motivates and directs people to the needed place and action for the greater good?
Garou
I know nothing of earthdawn, Snow, but i like the whole "stronger human spirit" thingy, metaphisically speaking. Maybe (meta)humanity can be an important piece on a distant future, as we are edgier (pun intended) than other threats that still might come.
Draco18s
In general: most of the Great Dragons. Though admittedly they're more along the lines of neutrality, but they certainly don't want the horrors showing up (its as bad for them as it is for us).
kjones
Dunkelzahn died for your sins! nyahnyah.gif
Mongoose
Anybody old enough to have survived the 4rth world (without being corrupted by the horrors) doesn't want the horrors coming back, or at least realizes the need to prepare some way for themselves (and anybody they want to rule over) to survive it. That makes them "the good guys" in that battle.
Ophis
Generally Hestaby, Ghostwalker and Lofwyr are imho good guys, however they are very much in the vein of benevolent dictators.
I sort suspect Horizon is a good guy, mostly because the Consensus being a benign force is funnier than it being an evil hive mind.

All this being said, nothing bar the Azzies is outright evil or good in SR, just like in real life.
CanadianWolverine
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Apr 4 2010, 06:38 AM) *
At the risk of offending Christians, he willingly sacrified himself (to destroy the Horrors) so that metahumanity might live on.


Speaking as a non-denominational Christian IRL (not speaking for all Christ Followers / Jesus Freaks), I don't see how that could possibly be offensive, not just because this is fiction/fantasy. IMHO, it is the opposite, its rather flattering to have such ideals fictionalized and can be seen a homage possibly in a indirect fashion. If anything, it would be my hope that fiction of this sort would help others evaluate for themselves what is clearly fictional about religion in general, one of my reasons for being decidedly non-denominational yet still having a belief in a relationship with God. Does that make me stupid? Perhaps, but I hope I can over come my own stupidity eventually and make the world a better place to live in by showing love. Good intentions only go so far if they are delusional and/or ineffective, so I hope I make it clear that practicing something is quite the opposite of perfection, so I should try to avoid being judgemental and just enjoy a bit of fun lawless (see: unjust laws) fiction. Robin Hood indeed.

So, should be pretty obvious which side I think I come down on as to if there are other forces at play that are interested in doing something that can be realized as good. But the reason I think the place remains a dystopia regardless of any forces of good virtues would have to be very simple: individual choice. So, sure, angels of all stripes might walk among metahumanity (even be indistinguishable from it) but it doesn't change that metahumanity still has a choice - not that that those choices are easy or unrestrained though. I would hazard a guess it would be the choice of a free spirit of some sort. And I could also see a possibility in an AI looking to seek a better life for all as well.

I even think forces of good would have direct ties (or tie ins) to Shadowrunners, if those runners show a preference for minimized collateral damage and blow back, helping out those less fortunate, teaching those willing to learn, dedication to their crafts, and anti-establishment life styles. Particularly, being anti-establishment in a dystopian world doesn't automatically make you "good" but sure does help. Ice cold professionals, only without the ice cold part perhaps.

Heh, I find myself thinking of FotD's latest AAR now, I hope there is a new update in that thread soon.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 4 2010, 10:24 AM) *
Dunkelzahn died for your sins! nyahnyah.gif
ok good osmeone got it, but I actually was wondering about something more than Dragon's and eon old elves. Possibly something not yet revealed.
CanadianWolverine
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Apr 4 2010, 09:37 AM) *
ok good osmeone got it, but I actually was wondering about something more than Dragon's and eon old elves. Possibly something not yet revealed.

Angels?
LurkerOutThere
Big L would not suffer something as trivial as a magical killing machines from beyond space and time to mess up his sandbox a second time.

knasser
Horizon, of course. They say they're the good guys so they must be. Nobody (with air time) disagrees.

Joking aside (at least it's intended as a joke as I see Horizon being one of the most evil megas of all), I don't see there being many great powers for good in the Sixth World. To be honest, I rarely consider power to be associated with good. People have mentioned the Great Dragons, I doubt that. They'll crush dissent and threats to them just as viciously as anyone else. That they might one day use you as cannon fodder against some metaplanar invaders hardly makes them good guys. I think people are viewing this from the GM's point of view. View it from a citizen of the Sixth World and Lofwyr is a vicious megacorp with a CEO that is rumoured to have eaten people.

In cannon, Harlequin is a power for good. Doesn't really apply in my game as my version is a Nieztchean "Beyond Good and Evil" sort of character. I have one player in my group who has read all the old Shadowrun stuff and has a longer history with the game. I'm waiting for the moment he encounters Harlequin and, pretending to be all "I'm not acting on anything my character wouldn't know" but actually ignoring all the warning sides, appeals to Harlequin's humanity or something. And gets an arm cut off. biggrin.gif

Basically, if you want a power for good in Shadowrun, I think it has to be the mass of humanity itself - those elements within it that still keep the world ticking over in spite of everything.

But then my take on Dragons and Immortal Elves is a fairly scary one. I suppose some spirits could be considered "good guys", but again, I wouldn't count on them.

K.
Ol' Scratch
Harlequinn is definitely the big gun for good in Shadowrun. He's just become despondent and has grown weary over time; sort of a paladin who's lost his grace and his will. Unfortunately (or fortunately, really), the writers seem to have said 'fuck you' to the older immortal elves overall, so I doubt we'll be hearing much about him or any of the others except in the most obscure and off-handed of ways. Which is weird considering that they have little trouble using Frosty.

I don't trust Horizon. I don't care what anyone says; they sound like the Universal Brotherhood 2.0 to me. Put on a happy face and a good front to sucker everyone in, then bam. And considering they focus on the matrix, entertainment, and public relations? Those are the big three means of controlling people. And what's one of their other big industries? Pharmaceuticals. I mean, COME ON.

Ares is often portrayed as good, at least as far as megacorporations go. Their methods are every bit as corrupt as any other megacorp, but at least they try to put on a good show of it. I tend to view Wuxing the same way, though I haven't read much about them.

But most of the organizations or individuals who could be considered a "force of good" are really more selfish than anything. The Atlantean Foundation is a good example of that. I agree overall though. Shadowrun has lots of gray and black... not so much white, if any at all.
hermit
Shadowrun is a bit like 40K there. Humainty prevails not because of some cosmic power, but despite several. Humanity is pretty good at enduring under pressure. Dragons and Immortals occasionally help, but mostly are selfish and uncaring entities that view humanity as pawns at best.

Hestaby being one of the more insidious dragons. Lofwyr actually is the "best" of the flock because he is very straightforward about what he is, how he sees himself and where he'd put humanity. The elven court kind of hasa vested interest in humanity's survival (wheel of spirits and all), and some immortals fashion themselves humanity's savior, however incompetent they may be in this (Aina, I'm looking at you).

QUOTE
Anybody old enough to have survived the 4rth world (without being corrupted by the horrors) doesn't want the horrors coming back

Aina also doesn't want them back. She just lacks competence in following this up. None of the named immortals does, including dragons and spirits. Not even the Invae would like the Horrors eating them.

Harley isn't in it for good. Harley's main motivation for life is lulz and to piss off Erhan. Harley isn't interested in the Horrors' return, but less for them devouring humanity (though no doubt he'd miss them) but more because of self interest.

QUOTE
I sort suspect Horizon is a good guy, mostly because the Consensus being a benign force is funnier than it being an evil hive mind.

No, it isn't. It would only make them even more annoying.

QUOTE
I don't trust Horizon. I don't care what anyone says; they sound like the Universal Brotherhood 2.0 to me. Put on a happy face and a good front to sucker everyone in, then bam. And considering they focus on the matrix, entertainment, and public relations? Those are the big three means of controlling people. And what's one of their other big industries? Pharmaceuticals. I mean, COME ON.

Ares is often portrayed as good, at least as far as megacorporations go. Their methods are every bit as corrupt as any other megacorp, but at least they try to put on a good show of it. I tend to view Wuxing the same way, though I haven't read much about them.

Horizon sounds like a bigger and meaner version of Scientology to me, from what I gather from the current writeups (disregarding the highly annoying way it was pushed to become a AAA corp instead of a producer of crap software). I don't see where they're the worst mega of them all; they're neither in league with forces of doom, like Aztech or Ares, nor do they have the dangerous habit to generate mass murder programs (Raku) and cover their existence up, or destroy entire countries for profit (MCT, Shiawase, Raku), support massive genocide (again, MCT, Raku, Shiawase) or have a secret inner cabal of WTF (cross). They also are not led by veritable monsters (Evo/Yamatetsu, Saeder-Krupp).

I'd rank NeoNET (Transys/Novatech/Erica), Evo and S-K as the least non-benign megas, because all they are is a bit uncaring towards people. The Japanacorps (Renraku, MCT, Shiawase) are mid-range evil, Horizon and Wuxin are a bit of wild cards, but probably mid-range too. Aztech (Horrors) and Ares (Invae) lead the field. Of course, hints have been dropped that Wuxing may suffer from Horror Infestation too, so they may also be worse than they appear.

One needs also keep in mind ALL megas have a benign puzblic face. Aztech's dark secrets are SECRETS to all but the few initiated. It is NOT common knowledge, any more than what really went down in the arcology is, or Knight's pet Invae are, or Celedyr's habit of putting people in brain jars and using them for organic computers (Wonder if he keeps some Mi-Go hidden somewhere)
Mongoose
Hermit- where are you getting all this paranoia from? Sure, there's evil influences inside some (probably all) megacorps, but that doesn't mean the entire megacorp is a tool of evil. There's even anti-horror factions within Aztechnology. Ares is pro Invae? Since when? You do realise that in the 4rth world, horrors were enslaved to fight against other horrors?
Last I knew, Buttercup had a big stake in Evo, and there's never been indication that "she" is anything but a force for good. Who are the "monsters" leading Evo? If you know anything about Lowfwyr in the 4rth world, you wouldn't ascribe evil motives to SK. (Militant, yes. Evil, not so much.)

One needs to keep in mind that evil infiltrates any organization, and simply doing research into something is not the same as being ruled by it.
Draco18s
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 4 2010, 01:50 PM) *
Big L would not suffer something as trivial as a magical killing machines from beyond space and time to mess up his sandbox a second time.


Big L?
kjones
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 4 2010, 05:29 PM) *
Big L?


I'm guessing Lowfyr, like how Dunkelzahn was "Big D".
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2010, 03:10 PM) *
Horizon sounds like a bigger and meaner version of Scientology to me

So did the Universal Brotherhood.

QUOTE
I don't see where they're the worst mega of them all; they're neither in league with forces of doom, like Aztech or Ares, nor do they have the dangerous habit to generate mass murder programs (Raku) and cover their existence up, or destroy entire countries for profit (MCT, Shiawase, Raku), support massive genocide (again, MCT, Raku, Shiawase) or have a secret inner cabal of WTF (cross). They also are not led by veritable monsters (Evo/Yamatetsu, Saeder-Krupp).

Of course you don't see it yet, because it hasn't been revealed. They're just a prime example of "too good to be true." And considering all the industries they have their fingers in and which they have focused themselves on, and the fact that they just came out of nowhere and became a AAA all but overnight, it's a terrifying prospect. Like I said in my last post: Media, entertainment, public relations, and pharmaceuticals. How does that not set off red flags for more people? Especially in a world where a shining beacon of good is completely unbelievable? Even the actual shining beacons of good (aka Harly) are completely beaten down.
hermit
QUOTE
Hermit- where are you getting all this paranoia from? Sure, there's evil influences inside some (probably all) megacorps, but that doesn't mean the entire megacorp is a tool of evil. [snip] Ares is pro Invae? Since when?

The beginnings were in Threats 2, but since a Good Merge now runs their Magic R&D ... I wager Knight feels he has them under control. Stupid Knight. Invae are not among the things you can control.

QUOTE
Last I knew, Buttercup had a big stake in Evo, and there's never been indication that "she" is anything but a force for good. Who are the "monsters" leading Evo?

Buttercup. A player spirit. You might want to read their entry. And keep in mind that S-K and EVO are the LEAST evil megas in my post. Lofwyr and Buttercup are relatively neutral monsters, but that don't mean they're anywhere near good.

And aside from the Horrors, which are a purely destructive force of nature, there is no "evil" as per moral definition in SR anyway. Even the Invae have a goal that makes sense from their point of view. Shadowrun is an amoral, uncaring universe.

Just, most megas are destructive forces to a greater or lesser degree - Aztech actively works on the apocalypse (though they THINK they are working on preventing it, they are just wrong), Ares is becoming the tool of the Invae invasion, and the Japanacorps are destroying the planet and chasing their tails. Ordo Maximus and their ilk are in it for the lulz, Winternightcertainly will not be the last doomsday cult that take doom seriously, and even most less destructive entities work primarily for their own good, and damned be everyone else. Saeder-Krupp is Lofwyr's attempt at weathering the coming scourge (with chice minions). The Seelie want to make Ireland one big, horror-proof shelter for the elves. Proteus was Evo's, Shiawase's, Nachtmeister's and a couple second tier corps' attempt to build space stations as an exit strategy for the chosen few. Renraku arguably tested a similar, land-based system with it's arcology. Ect. I sure hope they will never revisit the notion from an obscure German novel that Nepal is run by a Horror, but you never know ...

On a side note, anyone remember the Alpha/Omega file? And happens to know the C'Tan, Dragon? See the same parallels to what is hinted there as I do?

QUOTE
Of course you don't see it yet, because it hasn't been revealed. They're just a prime example of "too good to be true." And considering all the industries they have their fingers in and which they have focused themselves on, and the fact that they just came out of nowhere and became a AAA all but overnight, it's a terrifying prospect. Like I said in my last post: Media, entertainment, public relations, and pharmaceuticals. How does that not set off red flags for more people?

In-universe that makes perfect sense, but I have resigend to the fact they will not become a threat. Someone has to pamper the Neo clones and AI PC and all this WoD things that are creeping into playability with 4th ed. From a meta POV, Horizon is your friend. They may censor the matrix and do all the other astounding evils Google does, but that's as evil as they will ever get.
/whine
Demonseed Elite
I tend to take the same view of the setting that knasser and hermit have, though I keep it from getting too depressing by having truly good and unselfish acts done by the most downtrodden people. You know, the street shaman that takes in orphaned kids, the soup kitchen feeding the homeless, or the social worker who organizes a support group for broken survivors of the Arcology. I've found that sort of thing not only makes the setting bearable for players, but also ties them strongly to the street.
Sengir
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2010, 09:52 PM) *
The beginnings were in Threats 2, but since a Good Merge now runs their Magic R&D

Huh!? Where do you get that from? eek.gif
hermit
QUOTE
I tend to take the same view of the setting that knasser and hermit have, though I keep it from getting too depressing by having truly good and unselfish acts done by the most downtrodden people. You know, the street shaman that takes in orphaned kids, the soup kitchen feeding the homeless, or the social worker who organizes a support group for broken survivors of the Arcology. I've found that sort of thing not only makes the setting bearable for players, but also ties them strongly to the street.


Oh, make no mistake, I have acts of selflessness in my games too. I even have them in Dark Heresy, though usually, anyone who acts this ends like anyone who is nice in a George R. R. Martin novel. I once had an Atzec orphanage warden NPC who wanted the PC to hood for him. Any corp, for me, contains benign, friendly, helpful people as well as maign, petty and greedy. Even Horizon, though I have yet to use it that way.
hermit
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 5 2010, 12:07 AM) *
Huh!? Where do you get that from? eek.gif

Threats, 1 or 2 (I think 2, don't have my books with me right now) had a pet project of Ares' to breed Invae controlledly, infusing animals rather than metahumans with them, to get themselves trainable invae with all the benefits and none of the downsides. Because this never fails.

In one of the rules expansions (Augmentation, I think, but would have to look it up), a certain Theresa Montgomery is mentioned as new head of magic R&D for Ares. You need to have read the old novels, 2XS and House of the Sun, to understand the implications. Do yourself a favour and read them, they're among the best ever written for Shadowrun. Just as much, Theresa Montgomery is a Good Merge bug (presumably Wasp).

And she is head of magic R&D.

Does that sound reassuring?
Ol' Scratch
Just because they might have some corruption, that doesn't mean the corporation itself is corrupt. And considering all the things they did to clean up and deal with the bug spirits in Chicago, why wouldn't they be interested in learning everything they could about them? Fighting fire with fire is a very common American mindset, and Ares is the American megacorporation.

Making a few mistakes doesn't make you evil. If they find out Montgomery is a bug spirit, then just shrug their shoulders and carry on, that might be a bad sign. It's not like Aztechnology, however, where blood magic and evil rituals is par of the course for daily corporate living.
Ascalaphus
Where did you get those rumors of Wuxing and Horrors?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2010, 03:13 PM) *
Threats, 1 or 2 (I think 2, don't have my books with me right now) had a pet project of Ares' to breed Invae controlledly, infusing animals rather than metahumans with them, to get themselves trainable invae with all the benefits and none of the downsides. Because this never fails.

In one of the rules expansions (Augmentation, I think, but would have to look it up), a certain Theresa Montgomery is mentioned as new head of magic R&D for Ares. You need to have read the old novels, 2XS and House of the Sun, to understand the implications. Do yourself a favour and read them, they're among the best ever written for Shadowrun. Just as much, Theresa Montgomery is a Good Merge bug (presumably Wasp).

And she is head of magic R&D.

Does that sound reassuring?



It has been a while since I have read 2XS, but I was under the impression that Theresa Montgomery was a Merged Mantid Spirit... If she is indeed now the Head of Magic R&D for Ares this could be troublesome...

Keep the Faith
Sengir
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2010, 10:13 PM) *
Threats, 1 or 2 (I think 2, don't have my books with me right now) had a pet project of Ares' to breed Invae controlledly, infusing animals rather than metahumans with them, to get themselves trainable invae with all the benefits and none of the downsides. Because this never fails.

I knew about this one, but Dirk Montgomery's sister as head of their magic R&D? That would indeed be screwed up
hermit
QUOTE
Where did you get those rumors of Wuxing and Horrors?

Runner Havens, the HK chapter, the write-up of the Wuxing spire.

QUOTE
Just because they might have some corruption, that doesn't mean the corporation itself is corrupt. And considering all the things they did to clean up and deal with the bug spirits in Chicago, why wouldn't they be interested in learning everything they could about them? Fighting fire with fire is a very common American mindset, and Ares is the American megacorporation.

Firstly. They breed invae. They do not only fight them, they do not study them, they collect and breed them.

Ares is an 80s American megacorp. They're OCP. They're Wayland-Yutani. Do you really think they can handle an extinction level chitinoid threat to humanity in any way sensibly?

I agree, fighting fire with fire was the basic idea (that, and damn, bugs need no wages, and "we can get Blue Bacosoy* back into production! $$$!"). This fighting with fire idea has come back to bite America in the arse how often by now? It's as stupid as thinking the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

QUOTE
Making a few mistakes doesn't make you evil. If they find out Montgomery is a bug spirit, then just shrug their shoulders and carry on, that might be a bad sign. It's not like Aztechnology, however, where blood magic and evil rituals is par of the course for daily corporate living.

Hiring a bug spirit for head of R&D is more than a little mistake. It's like making bin Laden Attourney General. This doesn't just happen. This is deliberate. And no, in Aztech, evil sacrificial blood magic is practiced behind closed doors also, though no doubt rumors abound about it.

QUOTE
It has been a while since I have read 2XS, but I was under the impression that Theresa Montgomery was a Merged Mantid Spirit... If she is indeed now the Head of Magic R&D for Ares this could be troublesome...

I am certain it was Wasp. I am not certain who had rounded her up in House of the Sun, though. If it were the Desolation Angels, Ares would be less over the brink than if it were a more common hive.

*You must know Queen Euphoria for this. Basically, it is bacon-flavoured slurm. Just, it was around 10 years before Futurama.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
Hiring a bug spirit for head of R&D is more than a little mistake. It's like making bin Laden Attourney General. This doesn't just happen. This is deliberate

A statement like that requires proof. Who's to say she didn't manipulate her way into position, rather than having the corporation seek her out? Is there any proof that Ares or anyone else int he know is even aware that she's a bug spirit? I gave up reading the novels a long time ago, so I have no idea what the events are in there. But unless it's absolutely clear that Ares searched high and low to hire a bug spirit as their head of magic research and development, you can't say it's "deliberate."
Demonseed Elite
And just to really screw with your heads, there are some in Aztechnology who probably think they are saving the world. After all, Aztec myth is heavily steeped in the idea that sacrifice is necessary to preserve life. Literally, the Aztecs would sacrifice people (including volunteers) to keep the sun shining. There are probably some in Aztechnology who believe the sacrifice of the few is necessary to save the many.

After all, with its network of aspected teocallis, few nations are in a better position than Aztlan to wield magic on a scale that could protect itself from Horrors. The path to facing down the Horrors and surviving isn't always pretty (for example: see the Theran Empire).
hermit
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 5 2010, 12:38 AM) *
And just to really screw with your heads, there are some in Aztechnology who probably think they are saving the world. After all, Aztec myth is heavily steeped in the idea that sacrifice is necessary to preserve life. Literally, the Aztecs would sacrifice people (including volunteers) to keep the sun shining. There are probably some in Aztechnology who believe the sacrifice of the few is necessary to save the many.

After all, with its network of aspected teocallis, few nations are in a better position than Aztlan to wield magic on a scale that could protect itself from Horrors. The path to facing down the Horrors and surviving isn't always pretty (for example: see the Theran Empire).

Yes. I said as much. They believe they are saving the world. Hell, Thera was as much, if not deeper, into blood magic than Aztech.

They just are doing it wrong.

The (historical) Aztechs didn't only sacrifice volunteers, though. That'S why Cortez was able to oust them - they were VERY unpopular with all neighbouring tribes, free cities and whatnot, for their constant slave raids to feed their ever thirsty gods.

I recommend the novel 'blood sport' (one of the old novels) for an insight into Aztech. It's no high literature, but easy enough to read, at least to the German-only FanPro novels, and very useful for an Aztlan campaign.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2010, 03:42 PM) *
Yes. I said as much. They believe they are saving the world. Hell, Thera was as much, if not deeper, into blood magic than Aztech.

They just are doing it wrong.


By Whose Standards?

Keep the Faith
hermit
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 5 2010, 12:43 AM) *
By Whose Standards?

Keep the Faith

Anyone's who does not want the world being eaten by the Scourge.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2010, 03:46 PM) *
Anyone's who does not want the world being eaten by the Scourge.


That makes an assumption that the next Scourge will go off exactly as the last one did... That is a monumental leap of Intuition and logic...

Keep the Faith
hermit
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 5 2010, 12:49 AM) *
That makes an assumption that the next Scourge will go off exactly as the last one did... That is a monumental leap of Intuition and logic...

Keep the Faith

Not as great a leap than to expect Horrors can be controlled once the gates of horrorplane are wide open.

It may actually get worse, thinking o Alpha and Omega.
nylanfs
You know this argument gets a lot funnier if you just look at the poster's pictures and not the names. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 4 2010, 03:53 PM) *
Not as great a leap than to expect Horrors can be controlled once the gates of horrorplane are wide open.

It may actually get worse, thinking o Alpha and Omega.


It definitly could be worse... but then again, it may not be as bad either with the level of Technology that exists now compared to the last Scourge...

The Previous Scourge faced a Lot of Magical opposition... the next one could be facing Technology, and as we all know, Magic and Technology rarely tend to get along...

It is Sort of a toss up as to how the next Scourge will actually play out...

Keep the Faith
hermit
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 5 2010, 12:56 AM) *
It definitly could be worse... but then again, it may not be as bad either with the level of Technology that exists now compared to the last Scourge...

The Previous Scourge faced a Lot of Magical opposition... the next one could be facing Technology, and as we all know, Magic and Technology rarely tend to get along...

It is Sort of a toss up as to how the next Scourge will actually play out...

Keep the Faith

The Horrors will adapt. They always did. Overconfidence does not do anyone good there. Ask the Bloodwood Elves. wink.gif

It's not like Scouts weren't there already - wraith spirits, and likely Shedim, too (who need a kick to materialise but then linger, are hated by all spirits and posess a power - forced Karma drain - limited to Horrors in Earthdawn). The main force will NOT come unprepared. The clever ones, that is, a good part of the Scourge is just blindly feeding monsters. If you know CthulhuTech, think Rapine Storm and Chrysalis combined.

I am still convinced Chrysalis has more than it's share of Inspiration in Aztech, much as I love the split of Nyarlathotheb's cult into modern corporates and old-school cloak-and-Ftaghn priests. Conservative demon worshippers ftw!.
Stahlseele
Aztlan is actually trying to BRIDGE the Chasm on the metaplane between Thayla, the singing Goddess and Lethe/Burnout/Dunkelzahn the magical Cyberzombie with the Dragon Heart fused to his hand, and the side of THE ENEMY.
Also, THE ENEMY seems to be drawn in by big uses of Magic. Especially Blood Magic. Now think about the Great Ghost Dance 1 and 2 for a Second here.
hermit
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 5 2010, 01:06 AM) *
Aztlan is actually trying to BRIDGE the Chasm on the metaplane between Thayla, the singing Goddess and Lethe/Burnout/Dunkelzahn the magical Cyberzombie with the Dragon Heart fused to his hand, and the side of THE ENEMY.
Also, THE ENEMY seems to be drawn in by big uses of Magic. Especially Blood Magic. Now think about the Great Ghost Dance 1 and 2 for a Second here.

To their credit, that was Darke and his cult, not Aztech's will. They were misled, but most of them save the Tainted Dragon, Darke and a few others (Aztcawhatshisface the president, presumably) did not know.
Doc Byte
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Apr 4 2010, 03:38 PM) *
But yet humanity survives and even seems to thrive. so is there some higher power hidden in the wings? some greater force for good supporting metahumanity or is it just our indominable spirit?


Maybe some or even most mentor spirits?
kjones
I'm looking at RH p. 25 (Wuxing Skytower) and I'm not seeing anything connecting Wuxing and Horrors. Am I just failing to read between the lines?
hermit
Okay, it was in more than one place. And not in the skytower section. What you want to look at is the HK magic section: Aberdeen Rift and Yama Kings.

I have only the translated book in my possession, so i cannot quote in English, nor give page and line numbers. Paraphrasing must do. In the Aberdeen Rift section, we have a passage that emphathises the high magic of the place - five intersecting mana lines and an artifact of immense power. Halley also donated mana, and part of the power of the Aberdeen tower comes from a rift through the lanes, it is hinted. This ties with the Aberdeen Skytower section, where it is said that Wuxing's fortune depends on this power flow. You remember where Horrors poke their way through the planes, right?

Also, the upper levels of the sky tower are sealed off ever since the passage appeared. And Wuxing seems intent to close the passage. I guess this is Crater Lake all over again.

Now, take the Yama kings. They live off fear and make people do horrible things, to torment them with later. They make them preents. They taint them. There is only one thing in the SR universe that does such things.

Additionally, there is something breeding in the Wong Tai Sin temple. And the Alpha/Omega text is referenced.
Ol' Scratch
Regarding my earlier question: Is there evidence that she didn't manipulate her way into Ares? Bug spirits are insidious and clever enemies. Assuming that just because she was able to risee to a prominent position that means the entire corporation is infected is a pretty big leap. It's the difference between that and a company like Aztechnology (which was taken out of context, as usual): The higher-ups of Aztechnology include numerous blood mages, and blood sacrifices and worse are a natural part of their business operations. That's grotesquely different than a bug spirit managed to sneak her way into a position of power. And if she's suitably powerful, masking metamagic and magicks can easily help her maintain a very low profile against detection.

So unless there's lots of people out there who knows exactly what she is (and for whatever reason is just letting her run around doing whatever she wants), I find it really hard to believe that you can use that as proof that Ares, as a whole, is completely corrupt.
hermit
QUOTE
Regarding my earlier question: Is there evidence that she didn't manipulate her way into Ares? Bug spirits are insidious and clever enemies. Assuming that just because she was able to risee to a prominent position that means the entire corporation is infected is a pretty big leap.

(...)

So unless there's lots of people out there who knows exactly what she is (and for whatever reason is just letting her run around doing whatever she wants), I find it really hard to believe that you can use that as proof that Ares, as a whole, is completely corrupt.

There is.

The Threats chapter had something hinted about queen spirits and Ares cutting a deal. Yes, Theresa Montgomery may have been planted, but since she received years and years of treatment for her first, uncompleted merge, a simple background check would have sufficed to reveal her at least as doubtful. Also, she was never listed as a mage before HotS. Curious, eh? Sorry, Ares needs to be blind in a way I just cannot believe to hire her without knowing her nature.

If she really is with the Angels - I'll have to reread HotS for this - then Ares has thrown in with the Mantids, going by the all-american false assumption that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. And that means they are lost.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
And that means they are lost.

Not necessarily. In trouble? Yes. Likely to have it explode in their faces? Yes. But it doesn't make them completely corrupt. Unlike, again, an organization like Aztechnology which is rotten from the core. They're certainly not beyond redemption, and I seriously doubt if they'd make such an agreement (if true) without having failsafes. Failsafes that will undoubtedly not work, but failsafes nonetheless. Which would just prove now they're not lost; if they were, I doubt they'd care and they'd have far more bug spirits in the upper ranks.
Ophis
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 4 2010, 08:23 PM) *
I don't trust Horizon. I don't care what anyone says; they sound like the Universal Brotherhood 2.0 to me. Put on a happy face and a good front to sucker everyone in, then bam. And considering they focus on the matrix, entertainment, and public relations? Those are the big three means of controlling people. And what's one of their other big industries? Pharmaceuticals. I mean, COME ON.


This is all reasons why they should be good guys, everybody is looking for the dodgy, it's way to obvious that they are evil. The style of evil they are has been done before and we didn't trust it then. If they are good guys (look at their handling of the Emergence problem, they tried to keep things calm and be reasonable) they can do good things but we will all keep trying to look for the dodgy, which may not be there. As bad guys they are obvious and nothing new, as good guys they are fabulous paranoia food.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 5 2010, 06:23 AM) *
Okay, it was in more than one place. And not in the skytower section. What you want to look at is the HK magic section: Aberdeen Rift and Yama Kings.

I have only the translated book in my possession, so i cannot quote in English, nor give page and line numbers. Paraphrasing must do. In the Aberdeen Rift section, we have a passage that emphathises the high magic of the place - five intersecting mana lines and an artifact of immense power. Halley also donated mana, and part of the power of the Aberdeen tower comes from a rift through the lanes, it is hinted. This ties with the Aberdeen Skytower section, where it is said that Wuxing's fortune depends on this power flow. You remember where Horrors poke their way through the planes, right?

Also, the upper levels of the sky tower are sealed off ever since the passage appeared. And Wuxing seems intent to close the passage. I guess this is Crater Lake all over again.

Now, take the Yama kings. They live off fear and make people do horrible things, to torment them with later. They make them preents. They taint them. There is only one thing in the SR universe that does such things.

Additionally, there is something breeding in the Wong Tai Sin temple. And the Alpha/Omega text is referenced.


I'm not dismissing this theory, but I do want to point out something. The tampering that Wuxing is rumored to be reacting to, and the reason they closed off the top floors of the Skytower, is a reference to the Balance run in Survival of the Fittest, where the runners manipulate the feng shui at the top of the Skytower on behalf of Hestaby and Buttercup.

But could the Yama Kings have come through the Aberdeen Shallow, where the barrier between the Earth and the Astral is very thin? It's entirely possible.
Sengir
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 5 2010, 11:23 AM) *
You remember where Horrors poke their way through the planes, right?

Sure, places of high mana attact them. But that does not mean everybody who uses major mojo is in league with them, a corp which is heavily involved in magic certainly has enough benign (at least benign compared to "they're trying to build a bridge for The Enemy") reasons to secure a place with lots of mana.


QUOTE
And Wuxing seems intent to close the passage.

The shadowtalk says the Aberdeen Shallow used to be permanent, until some "outside source" screwed around with it, not that Wuxing itself is trying to close it.

QUOTE
Additionally, there is something breeding in the Wong Tai Sin temple.

Talk of heavily cybered people, a presence which taints the astral space and Man-of-many-names mentions that someone's "immortality is not meant to be". Cyberware, cheating death and something which taints the astral, I think that's a rather clear case wink.gif



And I finally looked up Theresa Montgomery, here's what Augmentation has to say about her:
Cross Biomedical was later bought out by Ares Macrotechnology and renamed Info-santé. Under Ares-appointed CEO Theresa Montgomery, Info-santé is ruthlessly expanding and pursuing new service contracts, leading to some tensions with DocWagon, CrashCart, and EuroMedis.

So she's the boss of Ares' HTR subsidary - not the worst position for someone like her, but at least not head of magic R&D.
hermit
Then I misremembered, thanks.

Still, I'd expect Ares doing a couple background checks on their branch CEOs. VERY unlikely they'd miss her previous therapy, her suddenly appearing magical talent and the likes.

QUOTE
Sure, places of high mana attact them. But that does not mean everybody who uses major mojo is in league with them, a corp which is heavily involved in magic certainly has enough benign (at least benign compared to "they're trying to build a bridge for The Enemy") reasons to secure a place with lots of mana.

Yeah, Aina DuPree also had benign motives for her crater lake Yrsthingy smash ritual. Only it blew in her face. Also, it says the Aberdeen passage links to the deep metaplanes where nobody has ever been before. What could that be?

QUOTE
The shadowtalk says the Aberdeen Shallow used to be permanent, until some "outside source" screwed around with it, not that Wuxing itself is trying to close it.

That actually supports my suspicion they are not interested in reining in the Horrors they let run free.

QUOTE
Talk of heavily cybered people, a presence which taints the astral space and Man-of-many-names mentions that someone's "immortality is not meant to be". Cyberware, cheating death and something which taints the astral, I think that's a rather clear case

Must be the taint of too much Dark Heresy then, but I read 'Void Dragon'.
The_Vanguard
QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Apr 4 2010, 03:38 PM) *
The world of Shadowrun has always been proudly dystopian with humanity being gorund under various forces(Mega corps,policlubs, anarchic gangs, toxic mages, bug spirits,AI, Horrors) that are at best uncaring and at worst activily hostile towards humanity [...]


Megacorps, policlubs and anarchic gangs are a part of humanity. They're startegies humans employ in order to further their own chances of survival. We don't really need higher powers to look after us - our ability to adapt and cooperate has been sufficent until now.
Actually, shadowrunners are one of the main disruptive forces of the 6th world. They undermine laws, social systems and economic structures and shield the true insitgators from repercussions. The shadow war is entropic by nature. The Horrors, in contrast, feed off human emotions and are therefore very much interested in mankind's long term survival.
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