The thing with all this talk of "the miracle of dice rolling", I suppose the player could have the PC burn a point of Edge to succeed no matter what the negative modifiers. I believe at least one long and acrimonious thread discussed this option a while back.

Your not seeing how it can be done doesn't mean it cannot be done.


Very well then. Let's examine the situation.
The guard gets +30 dice to because the GM thinks that there is no way for the guard not to see the character under those circumstances. Now all other factors remaining the same, the same character is now wearing an "Alien-tech" rutherium stealth suit/under Invisiblilty, the only mechanical difference between the first case and the second is a -6 to visual. That still gives the guard +24 dice. Which in all likelihood will means the guard spots the invisible character. By your logic, there is really no way for him not to see the invisible character.

And I'd say that's fine. If a player wants to permanently use up what can be used potentially as a "get out of death free" card then I'd say let the miracle happen. The guard happens to be in a violent conversation with his wife's divorce lawyer and completely misses the PC, who sneaks past right under his nose. It's certainly unlikely, but that's what an Edge burn means.

Edit: Ah, but now the character's white. It is now legitimately possible for him to use his stealth training to blend in with the wall and cause the guard not to see him. Sneaking past him might be hard if the guard's blocking the door, but not being seen is now more likely, although of course the guard would still get bonus modifiers for the bright lights and lack of cover, just not the "He is clearly not the same color as the rest of the hallway" modifier.

No, the only difference is now that the character is invisible, which by the rules only imposes a -6. There is no other change.

Dug up a long buried thread:


My stand has not change substantially from the time I made those posts in that thread.

That's your interpretation of RAW, but your arguments have all been against the GM's ability to say what he likes and enforce it. You aren't the GM in this situation, I am, and if I say that the modifier the guard gets for seeing you is reduced because you now don't stand out against the white-washed walls then the modifier gets reduced. I'm trying to be fair here. You didn't have more than a snowball's chance in Hell of succeeding before suddenly getting Alien Tech, and now you do. The reason the modifier ends up not being the listed -6 is because not only do you no longer stand out as a human against a white-washed wall, you also have your form broken up by the armor and don't have any shadows directly on your figure.

Honestly, my problem isn't with your argument that all skills should get tests by RAW, it's that you seem to think that the player has some ability to decide how the game is run mechanically. The player is certainly allowed to decide what his character does, but it is the GM's job to decide or approve of what repercussions the player's actions on the Shadowrun world are and decide on what happens mechanically when the player tries to do something. If a player thinks the GM is being unfair then he can either confront the GM or leave, and if the GM is any good he will listen to the player's complaints and try and change things to help the player have fun. But it really is in the GM's hands to decide on modifiers and rules interpretations.

Edit: Actually read the beginning of that thread. I am confused by your GMing style but accept it as unique and possibly fun. I think we've gotten far enough off topic from the original question of concealment so why don't we get back to that? I think we were talking about when a character gets to ignore a perception test and concealment's modifier?

Unless someone can come up with a very 'good' explanation of how this is going to happen, I'm going to stick to my previous like of thinking, and simply say 'hell no'.

I could see yelling working as a disorienting effect if the room the character and guard are in has an echo effect and the character doesn't visually reveal his location. It certainly alerts the guard to the fact that the character's there, which would probably end in a net penalty, but it's not quite so bad as to out and out disallow the character from making the check. It would probably be something like a hall of mirrors for sound.

None of us is the GM in this situation. I am trying to be very fair here, if you want to claim to be the GM, then for the purposes of the argument, you are not being fair, you can say whatever you want and be right. All my arguments are neither for nor against the GM doing as he pleases. My arguments are that if there are no rules but the literal RAW, no GM bias for or against "realism" apart from those circumstances as stated in the rules, the player should be able to decide what his character does and it should come down to the dice to decide whether he succeeds or not.

The problem is not whether the player gets to decide how the game is run mechanically, it is that the player should decide what he wants his character to do and how he wants to do it. It is, if the GM says he is playing by the RAW and there are no house rules, then that is how the game should be run. If the GM wishes to exercise his ability to say what he likes and enforce it, then while that rule is as written, the effect of which is a house rule.

If the situation was that the guy had 0 dice pool, then I'd say that he has no chance at success. It is mathematically impossible. But as long as the guy had 1 dice left, I see it as a "Look ma, no hands" situation. It is certainly less likely to succeed, but as long as the guy has dice left, he could succeed. If the GM decides to impose additional modifiers other than the ones that are explicitly stated, it is up to him and it is a house rule.

The yells themselves might be immediately noticeable and if the GM so decides, it might be a net penalty to the stealth roll itself. The difference between RAW and house rule is that a GM may impose additional house rule penalties on top of what is printed.

I think that a Perception test (and the Concealment modifier) is not necessary when the circumstances (as stated in the rules) that allow for someone to be immediately noticeable is applicable.

The example in question had someone in the middle of the street yelling 'here piggy, piggy, piggy' and somehow wanting to make an infiltration check while doing it.

The buildings on the sides could act to cause the echos, hence the disorienting effect.

Not with a direct LOS to the person hearing you, no.

Not with a direct LOS to the person hearing you, no.

Why won't a person with direct LOS to the person making the sound hear an echo?

Concealability is basically the spirit power version of invisibility.

Unlike invisibility it affects ALL senses.

Drawback: It only functions at one plane.

In cases where the subject of the power doesn’t use any Stealth/Infiltration I would require perceivers to make a perception test simply because the subject is harder to perceive and can easily be run over by a passing truck by it’s distracted driver (looks at traffic).

You can only use it EITHER on the physical or the astral and unless the character is using astral projection they are fully visible on the astral while giving regular security guards normal modifiers.

Basically concealment is a faked “blind spot” or a “see-me-not” compulsion to make people ignore your presence by making people’s senses “dampened” to your specific presence.

Has there been an errata or some form of clarification?

Powers from SR4:



This might be a completely personal opinion but I read it as that that in order for a target to be affected by a sprite's power for example they must be on the same plane, physical or astral.

This means that if the power is used on the physical plane then astral critters are unaffected.

Might be iffy for dual natured.

We also have:


Cocealment is a "P" Physical powers and does not affect the astral.

Which means I'm wrong in earlier posting, cannot be used on the astral at all then.

The first quote would mean that in order for the spirit's power to affect physical plane, the spirit must first be on the physical plane.

The second however would be true if the power itself did not specifically say that it could allow dual natured creatures to conceal themselves and others from astral detection.

Interesting. Would this also apply to Sprites? They are not dual natured and according to RAW non dual natured would not be able to use it to be concealed on the astral.

Sprites or Spirits? The two are different things. When the spirits materialise, don't they become dual natured? (p186 SR4A)

In my case I definitely mean Sprites as they have the Concealment power as well, or any awakened (living) critter for that matter with the same power.

Sprites are complied by technomancers. I haven't seen a sprite(Resonance or Dissonance) with Concealment yet.

That's the alienation power. It basically makes it so noone can detect your presence or interact with you. It was taken out of 4th ed. iirc but i'm away from books right now so I ca't give you a definate answer.

Uh, I think one of us is really confused... and I'm kind of leaning towards it being you. Could you clarify what you mean a bit? Sprites aren't... you know... spirits. Or even exist outside of the Matrix...

Sorry about this. Long week at work.

I mean of course PIXIES.

I suppose you could allow pixies to use their Concealment on the astral when they are dual.

I thought concealment was both. Did they change this in the FAQ?

BlueMax

OK, it is the exact wording of the power that raises that concern.

In a general sense, I would think that Concealment works on both planes, regardless of who was using it. But the exact wording says "allow dual natured creatures to conceal themselves and others from astral detection", that could be taken to mean that only dual nature creature can do that. And pixies are not always dual natured.

Concealment could wrok the same more so with added accident power. Shit nasty way to off some slot he crossing the road the car spontaneity skids and no one can see the guy its about to hit.

On a side note would concealment effect a pixie in the matrix?

Is it not true that critter powers that have spell-like effects, as is true for spells, can be directed either on the physical or the astral, but not both at once?

Considering that a Pixie isn't a spirit and doesn't have to worry about services, and how critter powers don't evoke sustaining modifiers, who really cares? If for some reason you really insist on requiring two different uses of the power for that, they can just use it twice simultaneously. No skin off their back. What's more, sustaining doesn't require you to meet the the 'casting' requirement of a spell or power. Once activated, a pixie could shut off their astral perception, be completely mundane, and still maintain the astral version of the power.

I agree with you about Pixies Funk but I think the topic's still relevant for Spirits. Do Spirits have to sustain Concealment on a single target multiple times for it to affect both Physical and Astral Perception? My guess is no based on the wording of the power, but if so a Spirit can only sustain an number of Powers equal to their magic attribute, so having to sustain it twice on a single target to have that target be invisible to both Astral and Physical watchers would mean that only half the number of targets would be able to be completely concealed at once.

I'm strongly of the opinion "no." Critter powers aren't spells and they don't follow all of the same rules. Unless a power makes a distinction between when it's affects can and cannot be used, then they can be used all the time as appropriate. As for services, it wouldn't require you to expend more than one to ask them to protect your entire group. Services aren't on a one-power-per-service basis anymore. "Help us sneak around" is a viable service and would include all the necessary castings of Concealment to get the job done, as well as the spirit using its own Infiltration skills (if any), and would likely even come out and tussle with bad guys if spotted since eliminating them is helping you sneak around.

Hear the echo sure, but given how the brain processes sound, the first and loudest incidence of a noise is deemed to be the direction it came from. Hence having a direct LOS will mean the first and loudest incidence of the noise is the person doing the screaming.

Direct LOS does not necessarily mean the first and loudest incidence of the noise is the person doing the screaming. If the sound is being projected at an angle to the direct line, the first and loudest incidence may not be to the person doing the screaming.

Unless the character can throw their voice the first and loudest incidence of the noise is always going to be its origin unless there's somethng in the way causing an echo effect. Echos bouncing off the sides of buildings would be significantly softer than the original voice and would have a slight time delay and so wouldn't be anything like enough of a distraction to keep the searcher from realizing the origin point of the noise.

That should depend on the relative skills of the character and the searcher.

Maybe that's based on the skills of searcher, someone might have to make a perception check to find the origin of the sound, but it would most likely require only 1 hit. The physics of sound, however, have nothing to do with infiltration training, especially considering it's a skill based on agility, so a character trying to use that kind of tactic would have to have some other kind of knowledge or active skill first that would let him estimate the echo effect of the buildings around him before being able to shout in the middle of the street and not expect everyone in the vicinity to look squarely at him. There's no way a character could use solely infiltration to pull that off.

I think the problem is that you're ignoring all of the negative modifiers that would exist on the test(s), assuming that the observer doesn't have a high Perception skill (which is doubtful considering all the myriad options there are to boost it), and assuming the one trying to hide has a god-like skill level. There's also the "it's magic!" argument to be had if you throw Concealment into the mix, but people don't really like that argument.

Let's assume the shouter is an average person with Agility 3 and mildly skilled in Infiltration (also at 3). He has a total of 6 dice to make his Infiltration Test. Now let's assume the observer is also an average person with Intuition 3 and mildly competent at what he does (Perception 3). Let's also assume he has the incredibly common implants/gadgets with both Vision Enhancement 3 and Audio Enhancement 3. He has a base of 6 dice on his test before applying the enchancement. Already, they're on an even boat.

But when you apply the situational modifiers, that changes. They would be in play include enhancement +3, perceiver is actively looking/listening +3, object/sound stands out in some way (standing in the middle of the street and shouting) +2, and -- if he has any buddies around -- up to another +5. That's up to a +11 dice pool modifier, or 17 dice total from a completely average, unremarkable character. And that's being pretty generous overall, while also ignoring lighting conditions and ambient noise. But considering how common vision and audio mods to help out with that, it's kind of a moot point.

Even if the shouter does have a Force 6 spirit throwing up Concealment on him, he's still at the disadvantage; his 6 dice versus the listern's 11. And if you ignore him having any buddies, they're still evenly matched with 6 dice each. Considering that some serious mojo is being used to try and hide him despite his poor tactic, I think that's a pretty reasonable result. The spirit is doing everything he can to hide the fool, but chances are it's not going to be enough.

If the shouter is actually some kind of super ninja, his active use of the Infiltration skill means he's taking advantage of whatever cover he can find while otherwise acting like an ass. In the case of Concealment, that cover is pretty readily available courtesy of the power.

Given that volume is affected at a rate inversely proportional to the square of the distance, longer paths will by necessity be quieter, and because all the sound waves are traveling at the same speed, take longer to get there.... Sorry, it won't work.

I don't have my book with me right now but in SR4A I'm sure that Concealment specifies that it works on both planes. In the basic SR4 book it wasn't clearly specified.

I believe the crazy person yelling out while trying to stealth around also has the Concealment power on them, correct? The Concealment power affects every known means of detection. That seems to mean that even with a person walking in broad daylight (vision,) while yelling (audio,) they still should have all of the negative modifiers due to the Concealment power available. So they should be walking in broad daylight (except they blend into the background so they're harder to see based upon the power of the Concealment.) They should be yelling out (except that the Concealment power should be deflecting, relocating or dampening the noise based upon the power of the Concealment.) This seems like they should definitely have a chance to actually waltz down the middle of the street screaming and still be hidden if the combination of their Infiltration (knowing where to position, move, avoid winds, etc...) and the Concealment Power (negative modifier to any attempts to pierce the aforementioned Infiltration attempts) ends up with net hits in the Infiltrator's favor.

If the power of concealment was high enough to over come all the modifiers such actions would have then yes. But I think You'd need more then a force 6 spirit.

Maybe so, but it would still give 6 dice.

That's assuming that all sound waves travel through the same medium as well as that all the sound waves radiate equally from a single point of origin. Instead if the sound was projected in a single direction, it could work.

But the difference in the longer paths might not be enough to actually make a difference. Just like Achillies gets "close enough" to catch the turtle, the sound waves traveling along the various paths might not be off by enough to really make enough of a difference that it's immediately apparent where the sound came from.

Not unless he has a phased array speaker setup or something, which certainly was not specified in the original situation.

If they are traveling different enough paths to change the apparent source of the sound, then they are traveling different enough paths to change the arrival time of the sound. Do some trig, and then square the edit:( resulting )distances between the straight line path, and the reflected path, and you'll start to get the idea.

Geez, how did a thread about magical Concealment get into a hard science discussion about sound physics? Whoever the crazy shouting person is wouldn't be able to make an infiltration test under these circumstances unless he had detailed knowledge of wave physics and made a test to that effect. Or he was a ventriloquist, either way. Toturi, there is absolutely no way that someone who was trained in moving silently would be justified in shouting to disorient someone searching for him unless he was in a situation that could make it work. Being in the middle of the street shouting "Here piggy piggy!" to a Lone Star official is not one of those situations. Your argument about it being possible is moot because the Infiltration skill does not cover the knowledge necessary to make it possible ("Look Ma! My arms bend in new and interesting ways, I know more about wave physics!"). Unless your watcher has some penalty to sight or sound perception, he's not going to have any trouble knowing exactly where your infiltrator is, no matter how stealthy he may be, in the same way that someone who had a tracking bug on him wouldn't be able to hide in the same situation.

All I know is that Infiltration is used when the character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors.

It doesn't matter how the character wishes to do so or what specific actions the character employs to do so, if the character wishes to sneak around undetected, he is still using Infiltration, even if he is shouting as is described above.

Someone with a tracking bug on his target knows the location of that bug. He would assume that his target is where his bug says it is. It does not make it any more possible for him to actually Perceive his target though.

Actually... IT DOES matter how he goes about performing his stealthy infiltration... If he goes about it by not being stealthy, then, he is not being stealthy and the roll is not allowed... pretty cut and dried if you ask me, and is apparently supported by those who have a say in how the game world is constructed... and by the rules themselves even...

The fact that you cannot understand that is truly amazing indeed... You are of course allowed to do as you see fit in your games, but please do not insist that it is the correct way to do things...

Keep the Faith