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Mana Child
I was wondering whether anyone has made one before and how they went about making one spell, skill, priority, stats etc wise.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Mana Child)
I was wondering whether anyone has made one before and how they went about making one spell, skill, priority, stats etc wise.

extinguish.gif Anyone remember the results the last time this genre was discussed? Then again, that was in the days of the lounge, when some people thrived on drama and controversy.
I hope this thread fares better than the other one.
I'd like to see how some people might flesh this out.
Mana Child
why what happened last time? i wasnt around then on dumpshock :P
Herald of Verjigorm
IIRC, it decayed into a debate of Wicca, "Real Witchcraft", stereotypical witchcraft, and a half dozen other things that people could assume by the term "witch."

Then it went downhill.
Hecatonchires
Umm... wouldn't witches be shamans with totems reflecting the Wiccan god(s)? Seems pretty basic to me.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Mana Child)
why what happened last time? i wasnt around then on dumpshock nyahnyah.gif

Yeah. Just a hunch, but did you maybe join sometime in the month of january? biggrin.gif



And for my next trick...


Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE
IIRC, it decayed into a debate of Wicca, "Real Witchcraft", stereotypical witchcraft, and a half dozen other things that people could assume by the term "witch."

Then it went downhill.
Yup, YRC.
QUOTE
Then it went downhill.
Understatement ++


MC, to answer your post, though I would say it's like creating any other magic using character. Basically it's all about how your character views/explains their talents. You can dress up magic in different costumes, but ultimately it has generally the same in-game effect. Roleplaying these explanations, though is where the difference comes in.
Shanshu Freeman
(fails will power roll to resist making a crack about Vanilla Ice's song where he mentions "Cooking MC's like a pound of bacon")
Mana Child
I dont believe in witchcraft in real life at all.
I was genuinely asking how youd make one. Via skills etc.
Note that this potential character is also of good alignment.
Mana Child
also i didnt mean witch witch per see,

i meant witch style character.
the character was seen as a witch becuase of her talents sorta thing.
Glyph
But magic is pretty common in Shadowrun, and the major world religions have all had time to adjust to its presense and revise their theology to account for/explain it. The only places you'd run into the old "Burn the witch!" reaction would be in very backwards communities.

If you are talking about style of magic, a witch/wiccan would definitely be shamanic, since, like Voudoun and Rastafarians, their magic is part of their religion. You wouldn't need any new rules, though. Just pick a totem that fits (MITS has more that would fit the wiccan mold, although I could see a wiccan following some of the basic book Totems like rat, mouse, owl, etc.).
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Mana Child @ Feb 16 2004, 08:03 AM)
I dont believe in witchcraft in real life at all.
I was genuinely asking how youd make one. Via skills etc.
Note that this potential character is also of good alignment.

[Devil's Advocate]Well, I don't believe in Snake Handling, but some people do, and I imagine they react poorly to sterotyping just like people who believe in the Wiccan traditions. I'm not saying either is good or bad, just explaining how the last thread devolved.[/Devil's Advocate]

"Good Alignment" ??? Is that a new edge? grinbig.gif

Good Alignment: Character can run in a straight line for miles. Never needs cyber leg rotation or balancing.

Mana Child
QUOTE
also i didnt mean witch witch per see,

Well then, which witch do you mean? rollin.gif

Mana Child
QUOTE


i meant witch style character.
the character was seen as a witch becuase of her talents sorta thing.

In all seriousness, to answer your question as I think I understand it, I would say to create a "witch character" you would give the character aspects and qualities that you identify with that type of person, right? My hunch is some people are going to have a different concept in mind than you might.

Glyph
QUOTE
The only places you'd run into the old "Burn the witch!" reaction would be in very backwards communities.
++
Synner
Just for the record, Wiccan's (often referred to as Witches) follow a one of the many variations of the religion known as Wicca. In SR the various sects (no negative connotation implied) include both hermetic and shamanic practioners (most commonly Idol-followers rather than Totemic).

However there are also Witches that practice Witchcraft, which to put it in its simplist terms is a hybrid magical tradition mixing Hermeticism, Judaico-Christian ritual and symbolism, midwife lore, herbalism, divination, pre-Celtic paganism and a bunch of other influences (essentially the pre-20th century Street Mage or Chaos magician in SR terms).

As a rule of thumb the big difference between the two is that Wicca is ultimately a religion and belief system, while Witchcraft is a magical tradition (whose practionners most of the time subscribe to one religion or another independently of their Art). There are other distinguishing differences between their symbols and beliefs but the deal-breaker is essentially the belief/faith aspect.

While in America the divide isn't as clear, in Europe things are different. Their MOs are completely different: Witchcraft practionners are the ones you go to on the sly to put a hex or spell on someone, to read your fortune in the cards or tea, to prepare an elixir or concoction to harm/cure/protect/draw customers; many run "consultation" services (this might be an old woman in a backwater village working out of her living room or a new-age style witch sitting in a fancy room in 4 bedroom flat downtown charging 500$ per hour). These types are especially common in Southern, Central and Eastern Europe and most haven't got the slightest idea what a Wiccan is or does...

Wiccans, over here, are closer to the new age stereotype than they would like us to believe in both style and symbolism. They share ground with Neo-Druidics and smaller Pagan and Revised Classical sects/denominations, but in general would think any of the practices I outlined above for "Witchcraft witches" as abhorrent and as a debasing the Power (sorry, couldn't find a better word).
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Synner)
Just for the record, Wiccan's (often referred to as Witches) follow a one of the many variations of the religion known as Wicca. In SR the various sects (no negative connotation implied) include both hermetic and shamanic practioners (most commonly Idol-followers rather than Totemic).

However there are also Witches that practice Witchcraft, which to put it in its simplist terms is a hybrid magical tradition mixing Hermeticism, Judaico-Christian ritual and symbolism, midwife lore, herbalism, divination, pre-Celtic paganism and a bunch of other influences (essentially the pre-20th century Street Mage or Chaos magician in SR terms).

As a rule of thumb the big difference between the two is that Wicca is ultimately a religion and belief system, while Witchcraft is a magical tradition (whose practionners most of the time subscribe to one religion or another independently of their Art). Their are other distinguishing differences between their symbols and beliefs but the deal-breaker is essentially the belief/faith aspect.

While in America the divide isn't as clear, in Europe things are different. Their MOs are completely different: Witchcraft practionners are the ones you go to on the sly to put a hex or spell on someone, to read your fortune in the cards or tea, to prepare an elixir or concoction to harm/cure/protect/draw customers; many run "consultation" services (this might be an old woman in a backwater town working out of her living room or a new-age style witch sitting in a fancy room in 4 bedroom flat downtown charging 500$ per hour).

Wiccans, over here, are closer to the new age stereotype than they would like us to believe in both style and symbolism. They share ground with Neo-Druidics and smaller Pagan and Revised Classical sects/denominations, but in general would think any of the practices I outlined above for "Witchcraft witches" as abhorrent and as a debasing the Power (sorry, couldn't find a better word).

Thanks for helping clear up the misconception embarrassed.gif

You seem pretty knowledgable on the subject, can I ask where did you glean your experience?
Hecatonchires
So... I was right. Awesome.

When I think of witch I think warts and brooms and lots of black, with pointy hats of course. I know this is going to invite a mountain of scorn from any of our "New Age" posters but I can only blame Hollywood and Terry Pratchett novels for my pre-conceived notions.
Synner
The short answer is "researching for SoE"...

But in truth this kind of thing is a hobby for me. I'm nowhere near as knowledgable as say Arcanum V, but I do like to explore the fringes and lesser-known magical traditions and religions of the real world. In this particular case I had it easy because there are a huge number of "Witchcraft" witches in Portugal, while Wiccans are almost unknown. In this country for instance, it isn't uncommon to see these Witches go to Mass every Sunday and deck their consultation rooms in Catholic motifs. Most of them have little or no idea what Wicca is or believes in.

Note - As I said, it's a hobby, don't even get me started on the differences between Hermeticism and Christian and Orthodox Theurgy or between Celtic and Pre-Celtic Druidism.
Cain
Okay, I think we have a D20 refugee here.

To answer your question-- in Shadowrun, a mage is a mage is a mage. They're all created in similar fashions, with different "dressings" attached. Some rules change; but in general, you'd create a witch like any other magician. There's no difference between a fireball cast by a hermetic mage, one cast by a witch, or one cast by a cleric of a given faith.

Now, you haven't given us too much to work with. As others have pointed out, a witch can mean pointy-hat-and-warts type (which would be effectively a hermetic mage-- the mechanistic approach to spellcasting and commanding elementals is more hermetic than not); a traditional Wiccan (who would be a shaman, preferably of an Idol totem-- Great Mother or Moon Maiden are the best candidates); or a New-age crystal-waver (who would probably be a shaman, of any totem). Until we know which one you're aiming for, we can't help you out too much.

Other than that-- you're probably looking at a Magic Priority A character, with high Sorcery and Conjuring skills, as well as Enchanting. Since those skills are good for any full mage, you really can't go wrong on this track.
Drain Brain
QUOTE (Cain)
...or one cast by a cleric of a given faith...


Careful boss, methinks you might be on the verge of being corrupted... one more reference like that and I'm afraid I'll have to report you to the D&D police...

(don't worry - I've been in their cells plenty of times myself!)

[Begin Movie Madness]

To MC: Don't forget to make sure your familiar has the forms of:

1: Black Cat
2: Crow
3: Reed Broomstick
4: Shambling monstrosity composed of various human detritus and/or large "traditional" movie style demon. This form is specifically for the "scaring the crap out of the villagers™" routine.

[end movie madness]

Although wicca is a fairly well defined magico-religious system, don't forget that their are a number of other similar systems you can utilise - all it takes is research. What you might consider, though, is to make use of pop-culture.
I know that this goes against the grain, but think of all the SR references to perception influencing reality. If you want to make a working magical character based of a Buffy-esque witch, then do so - the magic is the point, not the fluff, and so long as it works, then that's fine - which book cited a reference to someone who had a large 20th century blue superhero (SPOON!) as a totem? Just do what thou will...

If witchcraft is your thing, and you're using the British hermeticism route (that's pretty local to me) then think cauldron, athame (ritual blade), maybe a little crystallomancy and various other bits... I'll see if I can find my books for more - I know I lent them to a uni-student studying the effects of religious and paranormal experiences or some such drek...
k1tsune
MitS has rules for Witchcraft as a magical tradition.
252
I'm actaully pretty interested in the more role-playing aspects.

I've got this contact that I'm running that is supposed to be a Bostonian Witch (because the area is more European influenced)

I mean, this is the wicca sort of thing, where it is actually her religion. I don't care about the rules mechanics(because they are essentially the same), perhaps a few knowledge skills to more full her out. She is a some-what important NPC, contact, person. So I have a bit on her.
k1tsune
A "Witch" in my mind would probably know about ritual magic, herbs, and almost definitely British Isles Folklore. Candle magic, maybe?

Just bein' kinda stream-of-consciousness, here.
252
Hmmmmm, candle magic.

I have NO (sorry about yelling) idea what candle magic is.

Do you burn people with the candle. I believe that is called combustion, and is actually quite scientific, and not very magical at all. (Was supposed to be a joke, but probably sucked.)
k1tsune
QUOTE (252)
Hmmmmm, candle magic.

I have NO (sorry about yelling) idea what candle magic is.

Do you burn people with the candle. I believe that is called combustion, and is actually quite scientific, and not very magical at all. (Was supposed to be a joke, but probably sucked.)

A lot of witches practice candle magic, which is a sort of sympathetic magic done with candles. (Wow!) What they do is take a candle of a particular color, carve symbols into it, annoint it with herbs or oils (all of these symbolically related to the spell they're casting) and then visualize their goal as they are lighting it and burning it. The thought is that as the candle burns, their magic will be done.
Aidley
okay, guys, i have an EASY way to settle this. Get the latest copy of NSRCG. Create a magic user. Choose the 'wicca' path/totem for your character. voila, you have your witch.

and if I see one more f*cking 'witch/wicca = good/bad' post, I swear I'm going to start posting in character. You remember that satyr poledancer?

now behave, and go post your religious posts on a religious board, and save this place for gamer geekery.
k1tsune
WITCHES?! O_O

YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HELL!


(Sarcasm brought to you by someone who was written up in 8th grade for having a book on Wicca)
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Aidley @ Feb 16 2004, 03:40 PM)

and if I see one more f*cking 'witch/wicca = good/bad' post,  I swear I'm going to start posting in character. You remember that satyr poledancer?


Now this I gotta see!


Umm "I say, fellows, <insert value judgement here.>" </Stewie from Family Guy, voice>
sable twilight
QUOTE (Hecatonchires)
Umm... wouldn't witches be shamans with totems reflecting the Wiccan god(s)? Seems pretty basic to me.

Not necessarily. Depending on the style or tradition a witch could easily be hermetic, especially considering that elemental are invoked during ritual.

What would be more "accurate" for some styles and traditions of wicca/witchcraft would be more of a hybrid tradition, with access to Elementals and the Spirits of Man, but I'm not sure how it would balance.

Of course, I should not expect accuracy in Shadowrun magic systems considering they got neither Shamanism nor Hermetic magic very accurate to begin with.
252
What if they had access to the spirits of the elementals, and the spirits of man only?

No I have not play tested it, however. She is an NPC, so I could very easily have her show up to more runs then normal. Hmmm, and just see how well that works.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (252)
What if they had access to the spirits of the elementals, and the spirits of man only?

That would be a wu jen.
RangerJoe
Just be careful allowing witch/wiccan characters access to elemental magic-- especially spells like sandblast or the summoning of Earth elementals from fine-grained material. Otherwise, next thing you know, you'll have sandwitches hopping around everywhere.

In terms of researching more ritual information for better RPing purposes, many of the newer-age witch groups found stateside have a web presence of some kind or other (I ran into an interesting description/run-through of a ritual adapted from Norse culture whilst looking for customs involving mead. Yes, I run a smaller brewery, and yes, there was a lot of mead-horn sharing in the ritual). All goes to show, I suppose, that many traditions/customs can be covered by the terms witch/wiccan. Determining your character's demeanor and how s/he got into the craft/religion will help you figure out what kind of witch your character would like to be.
sable twilight
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (252 @ Feb 16 2004, 12:15 PM)
What if they had access to the spirits of the elementals, and the spirits of man only?

That would be a wu jen.

Actually, that might work. I forgot all about the Wu Jen. There are quite a few similarities between Taoist magic and that of Wicca/Witchcraft. Practitioners often filled very similar roles in their respective societies.
Pistons
QUOTE (Aidley)
okay, guys, i have an EASY way to settle this. Get the latest copy of NSRCG. Create a magic user. Choose the 'wicca' path/totem for your character. voila, you have your witch.

and if I see one more f*cking 'witch/wicca = good/bad' post, I swear I'm going to start posting in character. You remember that satyr poledancer?

now behave, and go post your religious posts on a religious board, and save this place for gamer geekery.

No one was making value judgments about either. Relax. The religious aspects are relevant, and no one's doing any proselytizing. Trust me: if that were the case, warnings would be handed out.

That said, there are communities around the world that view "witches" as evil people. (Such as a few places in Africa, where if something goes wrong in an unusual matter, it is believed there must be a curse in action and will immediately begin a search for a witch.) And in those places, they aren't far from wrong; there are folks who call themselves such, and perform services that many would consider wrong or evil. To try to draw parallels between those witches, and American witches or Wiccans, or UK witches, and so on, would do a grave disservice to each culture and the people involved.

For anyone who wishes to do further research for the sake of character (PC or NPC) generation, there are some excellent shows that have aired on the Discovery or History channels (such as at least one episode of "Taboo"). There are also good history resources, occult and new age resources, and a plethora of web pages.

The advice given so far in regard to generating a "witch" character is worth using.
Mana Child
Well this witch i'm making would probably be seen as new age since shes between the age of 19-21.
Synner
Mana Child - As someone has mentioned before this only truly matters if you want to develop the roleplaying aspect of a mage's particular tradition, ruleswise it's not really that important.

However, if you are interested in the character's magical background, how she views the nature of magic use and spirits, what 'cosmology' she subscribes to and how that affects her outlook on life and her place in the Shadows, then "new-ager" probably isn't going to cut it. If you want to develop this through her foci and the symbolism she uses in her magic, if you want to fill out her relationship with a familiar (ie. Ally spirit) , if you want to look in to what type of styling would be more appropriate for her Divination magic, etc, a little light reseach is a Good Thing™. A lot of players simply pass this over as unnecessary detail but I for one like to pump all this stuff into a well-rounded magic user.

Check MitS for some guidelines (or if you can get your hands on them, the Grimoires and/or Awakenings). Do some net searches on Wicca, Neo-Druidism, Neo-Paganism and Witchcraft. Compare the cultural variations, see what fits your concept best. Maybe you'll even find something that'll make you go in a different direction. There are a great many sources (some credible others less so) on the net alone, there are more in books.

Keep in mind that in North Am and Britain most "new-ager" type witches are either Wiccans, members of one of the various Goddess sects or Neo-Druidics. Other sorts are present but are less well known (ie. Romany or Gypsy witchcraft for one, West African Quimbondo for another).

Note age is completely irrelevant in most cases: there's nothing wrong with a 18 year old Romanian (witchcraft) hexcaster; an African witchdoctor starts his vocation as a child.
Mana Child
My character is going to be a North am "new ager" or wiccan.
who are the wiccan gods? and how can i do this without MitS becuase i only have the SR3 book. And becuase of my current debt (which isnt that much but it still hinders me from getting the book for a month or 2).

Mana Child
basically what i'm looking for is totems that would be suitable.
moosegod
I would have to suggest doing some digging yourself. Only you know what you are kind of looking for.

With a fair amount of wiggling, you could use ANY totem for ANY thing, more or less. All it takes is a matter of perspective.
Shanshu Freeman
My God you people are patient. I love each and every one of you for it, it's something I think has maybe been rubbing off on me irl... but I still have a long way to go.
Mana Child
well considering i'm a newb i wouldnt know what the hell i'm looking for let alone doing at all.

Bölverk
No offense, but if you don't know what you're looking for, how do you expect us to know?
Mana Child
i didnt mean that as such i just thought that it would help if i knew how other people would go about doing the same thing.
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Mana Child @ Feb 17 2004, 12:34 AM)
well considering i'm a newb i wouldnt know what the hell i'm looking for let alone doing at all.

Sandwiched in between the jokes in my first few posts, I provided what I'd like to think was somewhat helpful information, information that was reposted and restated by several Old Timers as well, when it appeared that it might have been missed.

I'm not quite a newb, but I don't consider myself experienced by any means, either. That being said, it's the very reason I choose not to play any magical characters. I don't have a sufficient working grasp of the ingame mechanics to feel comfortable with a magical using character. For that very same reason, I would reccomend you hold-off on a playing a magical character as well, until you get some experience under your belt. Not a personal attack, just some friendly advice that I even follow myself.

If you really want to make a magically active character, more power to you. You're more courageous and industrious than I am, and I salute you for it. I tend to take a lazier route.

How comfortable are you with the magical rules in the SR3 main book?
moosegod
Oh, when you put it that way...

You are esseniatly asking how to make a magician character in a certain tradition.

Well, let's get the ball rolling.

First off, you don't have to follow any established tradition. If you want new-agey, you can just have her use a bunch of crystals in her magic, and develop it from there. For a shaman, I think the most important component is the totem. So look at a totem you like, and interpret it through whatever your interpretation of witchiness is.
Mana Child
was the crystal thing for hermatic or shamanistic tradition or does it work for both?
moosegod
It can easily work for either.

You know what, drek this. Do you have AIM or any other IM service? We can chat about it a whole lot easier that way.
Synner
To help you on your way here's a net resource with some generic and not too deep information (while not being too out there for newbs) on a number of things that have been discussed in this thread: The Celtic Connection (try the Wicca and Shamanism links at the bottom of the page for starters)

Hundreds more are just a Google Search away.
k1tsune
Just have her magic style involve a lot of tools and things. Witchy things. I like my candle magic thing. It would make a good geas. Ooh. ideas..
252
I think that is going to be how she does her centering, hmmm can you have two different centering skills, without having to take...

Ohhhh I know maybe it is one of those limited spells she will take. Would that seem proper game mechanics for a spell to have, I mean if I took a limitation for like heal, and I would have to put the proper runes into the candle and such for the spell to work.

I'm just wondering if that sounds right. Guess I'll have to do some re-re-re-re-re ect, reading of the BBB.
sable twilight
QUOTE (Pistons)
That said, there are communities around the world that view "witches" as evil people. (Such as a few places in Africa, where if something goes wrong in an unusual matter, it is believed there must be a curse in action and will immediately begin a search for a witch.) And in those places, they aren't far from wrong; there are folks who call themselves such, and perform services that many would consider wrong or evil. To try to draw parallels between those witches, and American witches or Wiccans, or UK witches, and so on, would do a grave disservice to each culture and the people involved.

What's amusing is that often only dividing line between Witch and Tribal Priest/es or Shaman in those cultures is whos "side" the magic worker is on.

Synner - Good post.

QUOTE (Synner)
Note age is completely irrelevant in most cases: there's nothing wrong with a 18 year old Romanian (witchcraft) hexcaster; an African witchdoctor starts his vocation as a child.


One thing to remember is that there may be many witches whose traditions have been handed down through the family, especially by the 2060s and the return of magic.

QUOTE (Mana Child)
My character is going to be a North am "new ager" or wiccan.


Considering I can think of at least a half dozen varieties of North American Wiccans/Witches, you might want to get a little more specific.

I should also say that, to me, New Ager is closer to aspects of Christianity with bits from Wicca, Native American Shamanism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, and pieces of mysticism from all over the world. Magic is in the form of "psionic powers". But that is just from my experiences.

QUOTE (Mana Child)
who are the wiccan gods? and how can i do this without MitS becuase i only have the SR3 book. And becuase of my current debt (which isnt that much but it still hinders me from getting the book for a month or 2).


Gods and Goddesses really vary by tradition. Some will use whatever divine being(s) happen to resonate with them, no matter the origins. Others are only deal with god/desses from a specific cultural/religious origin (such as Celtic, Norse, Greek, Summarian, or Egyptian).

QUOTE (Mana Child)
basically what i'm looking for is totems that would be suitable.

All of them work well, but those that likely have the closest "feel" in my opinion, would be Cat, Dog, (Field) Mouse, Owl, Raven, Snake, and Wolf.
moosegod
Hey, sorry Mana Child, but I gotta go. Hope the others can help you out better.
k1tsune
I had an idea: You could take one of the basic totems and have the character identify their totem with an ancient God. i.e. a Cat shaman who sees her totem as the embodiment of Bastet, or a Raven shaman who worships the Morrigan. Yess..
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