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FenrisWolf
New GM here and I'm having a tough time understanding how control of drones work. I don't have my book today and I was hoping someone could help me out. My group had our first couple of sessions and this topic came up. I kind of winged it during the session to keep the momentum going but would rather find out what the hell I did right and what I totally fubared. Specifically:

1) How does a person take control of another person's drone
2) How do they maintain control of it
3) How does a person keep someone else from taking control of their drones

Thanks in advance chummers.
Eratosthenes
1) How does a person take control of another person's drone

Via Hacking, either Spoofing commands from an authorized user, or Hacking in as if it were any other node.

2) How do they maintain control of it

If they have admin rights, erase other users, encrypt the node. If you want to permanently take over the drone, you'll have to do more work to erase all the RFID's, and spoof it's access ID so it can't be tracked, and possibly even install a new system/firewall. Arsenal has some information on stealing cars that might be applicable.

3) How does a person keep someone else from taking control of their drones

IC, strong Firewall, Anti-Theft modifications, or being jumped in (as a rigger).
FenrisWolf
Thanks for the help. For the life of me, I have the hardest time getting my head around the matrix/rigging rules. I had a player take control of a corp doberman drone and she used it to gun down some of the opposition. She decided that she wanted to keep the drone and loaded it up on the back of a stolen truck. Then she told me that she logged off of the drone, leaving it alone with only one character in the back of the truck with it. We ended the session on that cue and suffice to say, it was a point of discussion.

Our next session is tomorrow night and I just wanted to make sure I had a better grasp on the rules to prepare myself when the drone comes back online with a target in sight. The player will definitely try to gain control of it again to fix her mistake before it unloads it's AK-97 in her teammate.
Karoline
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 27 2010, 07:41 PM) *
Thanks for the help. For the life of me, I have the hardest time getting my head around the matrix/rigging rules. I had a player take control of a corp doberman drone and she used it to gun down some of the opposition. She decided that she wanted to keep the drone and loaded it up on the back of a stolen truck. Then she told me that she logged off of the drone, leaving it alone with only one character in the back of the truck with it. We ended the session on that cue and suffice to say, it was a point of discussion.

Our next session is tomorrow night and I just wanted to make sure I had a better grasp on the rules to prepare myself when the drone comes back online with a target in sight. The player will definitely try to gain control of it again to fix her mistake before it unloads it's AK-97 in her teammate.


At that point the drone wakes up with the corp's security rigger in control, and starts gunning down anyone it sees. The rigger also takes a moment to check the access logs to see who was controlling the drone, and then sends the corp's hacker after them (Won't actually know who, but could likely find which commlink, which is enough for the hacker to try and locate the commlink from).

Remember, a drone being rigged can't be hacked or interfered with in general except through the use of jammers.
Falconer
Don't forget a data bomb!

I don't fully understand the matrix rules yet, (not enough play experience). But I keep reading that the SR4a changes now make data bombs a viable defense in their own right on a drone.


Other ways to 'steal' drones... Jam them, and disable them. See the special electricity rules. (a Med drone like a doberman maxes out at 3bod, 9 armor... so it works out make opposed attack test. Get net hits if it hits, instead of the normal add net hits to damage and soak, roll those 12 dice and if the attack wins... the drone shuts down.

Basically doesn't work well on large vehicles w/ lots of body and armor, but works well on smaller drones.

Eratosthenes
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 27 2010, 08:01 PM) *
Remember, a drone being rigged can't be hacked or interfered with in general except through the use of jammers.


A hacker could still exploit their way in, and engage the rigger in cybercombat to crash them, or crash the drone's OS to dump everyone.
Karoline
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 27 2010, 08:23 PM) *
A hacker could still exploit their way in, and engage the rigger in cybercombat to crash them, or crash the drone's OS to dump everyone.


Not if it is slaved to the rigger, which should be an automatic process while a drone is being rigged.
FenrisWolf
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 27 2010, 09:23 PM) *
A hacker could still exploit their way in, and engage the rigger in cybercombat to crash them, or crash the drone's OS to dump everyone.


That very thing is going to be an issue for me tomorrow. I can't find a reference in the SR4A that says whether a person can exploit their way into a VR controlled drone.
Karoline
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 27 2010, 08:45 PM) *
That very thing is going to be an issue for me tomorrow. I can't find a reference in the SR4A that says whether a person can exploit their way into a VR controlled drone.


Do you have unwired? If not, just say that any time a rigger is rigging a drone, it automatically goes into slave mode. What this means is that it is impossible to hack remotely. The only way to hack it is to directly connect to the node via a fiberoptic cable, and even then, the test is made against a +6 DP for the system or something like that.
FenrisWolf
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 27 2010, 09:51 PM) *
Do you have unwired? If not, just say that any time a rigger is rigging a drone, it automatically goes into slave mode. What this means is that it is impossible to hack remotely. The only way to hack it is to directly connect to the node via a fiberoptic cable, and even then, the test is made against a +6 DP for the system or something like that.


I have Unwired but haven't had a chance to read through it. I started the game with only the SR4A rules with the hopes of adding additional rules as time/need permits.
Falconer
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 27 2010, 09:27 PM) *
Not if it is slaved to the rigger, which should be an automatic process while a drone is being rigged.


In which case, it opens up another avenue of attack.


Spoofing a command from the riggers comm to disconnect all users hammering him w/ dumpshock.

Slaving is nowhere near as much of a defense as you're making it.



Also if the device is slaved, and disconnected by ECM... it's now a wide open as it can't connect to it's master.

Another potential is jamming it, then forging the masters address... then having the drone reconnect to you instead of him.


Also slaving devices can very quickly run you into subscription limit problsm.
Karoline
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 27 2010, 08:56 PM) *
I have Unwired but haven't had a chance to read through it. I started the game with only the SR4A rules with the hopes of adding additional rules as time/need permits.


Well, this would be a good case to go look up slaved nodes. Just don't go crazy with it, because it can quickly bring up the question of why anything important is hackable.
FenrisWolf
Just to add some clarification. The runners are fleeing a corp facility with the stolen drone in the back of a boosted bread truck. The corp rigger isn't on-site and would be accessing the drone's node from a remote location. The runners tried to hack into the corp facility but alerted it. They then went in guns blazing so the place is definitely on alert. The corp rigger would access the remaining drone to access the situation and quickly realize that it wasn't in Kansas anymore.
Karoline
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 27 2010, 09:03 PM) *
Just to add some clarification. The runners are fleeing a corp facility with the stolen drone in the back of a boosted bread truck. The corp rigger isn't on-site and would be accessing the drone's node from a remote location. The runners tried to hack into the corp facility but alerted it. They then went in guns blazing so the place is definitely on alert. The corp rigger would access the remaining drone to access the situation and quickly realize that it wasn't in Kansas anymore.


Yep, so what would happen, is as soon as the rigger beings to rig the drone (not just access its location or anything) it goes into slave mode, meaning that no one else can control it. Due to the nature of the matrix, his location and the drone's location don't really matter. Now, if he would open up the guns, or simply use it to spy on the runners (since they seem to think it is safe) is up to you, and would depend some on the corp. Also, keep in mind that the rigger can track the location of the drone, and as long as the runners have the drone with them, the corp can send a black ops type team after them. Note that even if the drone is shut off, it will have RFID tags that will track its location. They're basically going to need to dump the drone, or get it somewhere that it doesn't have wireless access. They could also run a tag eraser over it, but it is likely to have some tags that the eraser can't reach, or of the higher quality that the eraser can't erase. If they had the time and skill, a hacker could access the tags individually and shut them down, or a mechanic could physically pull the tags off or destroy them, but I'm guessing they'll have a helicopter with a special ops team breathing down their necks soon.
FenrisWolf
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 27 2010, 10:14 PM) *
... simply use it to spy on the runners (since they seem to think it is safe) is up to you, and would depend some on the corp. Also, keep in mind that the rigger can track the location of the drone, and as long as the runners have the drone with them, the corp can send a black ops type team after them. ... but I'm guessing they'll have a helicopter with a special ops team breathing down their necks soon.


That my friend is a great idea and very SR-ish of you. Either way, their first run went off without a hitch but will definitely get more interesting as the night goes on.
FenrisWolf
Damn double tap post.
Karoline
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 27 2010, 09:23 PM) *
That my friend is a great idea and very SR-ish of you. Either way, their first run went off without a hitch but will definitely get more interesting as the night goes on.


Thanks very much. I try.
Sengir
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 12:01 AM) *
At that point the drone wakes up with the corp's security rigger in control, and starts gunning down anyone it sees. The rigger also takes a moment to check the access logs to see who was controlling the drone, and then sends the corp's hacker after them (Won't actually know who, but could likely find which commlink, which is enough for the hacker to try and locate the commlink from).

I guess the rigger will not wait outside the stolen drone and jump in again at the very moment the player logs off . But the drone still has a pilot program, which might open fire on the poor guy in the back of the truck, or decide that the situation is not covered by its programming and "phone home" for advice (GM decision, or roll a "common sense" test for the drone's pilot).


And the canonical example for all things related to hacking drones:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry804857
darune
The way i understand slaving it won't actually add much as to security.

If you wirelessly connect/exploit/whatever to the slaved device (this case the drone) you will merely be redirected (so to speak) to the master. Usually this improves security as the master will be more secure (eg. a camera slaved to security node).

It is fair to assume that the hacker/rigger spoofes his access id when it does not matter (does not need the old one anymore). Even then, a hacker could still search for active commlinks near the drone, but it may be easier to just for the runner hacker to try to log onto/exploit the drone (or slaved rigger) for control, then lie in wait (doing active Analyse to find the runner, then engage in cybercombat).
Karoline
Need to be a bit more clear there Darune. You talk about a runner hacking into a system so that he can lie in wait for the runner (presumably himself?). You also say the slaved rigger, but it is the drone that is slaved, not the rigger.

If you try and connect to the slaved device (the drone) you will not be redirected, you will simply fail to connect to it [ACCESS DENIED]. If the hacker wants to get to the master (the rigger in this case) they'll have to use a sniffer to figure out who is connecting to the drone, then they'll have to hack into that person's commlink, which for a corp rigger, is likely to be highly secure.

As for the hacker lying in wait for the rigger... well, we've already seen they're not doing that, but even if they were, as soon as the drone becomes slaved, it will cut all other connections, so all that will get the hacker is dumpshock.
Doc Chaos
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 02:22 PM) *
If you try and connect to the slaved device (the drone) you will not be redirected, you will simply fail to connect to it [ACCESS DENIED].



Uhm, sure about that? Isn't the whole point of slaving (besides security) the automatic rerouting of connections?
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 27 2010, 09:58 PM) *
Spoofing a command from the riggers comm to disconnect all users hammering him w/ dumpshock.


If the rigger is jumped in, you can't spoof it. All outside connections are ignored, effectively, if the rigger's jumped in.
darune
After reading my own post i see the confusion.

The scenario would be a corp rigger and a corp hacker working in concert. As you mentioned, when the drone starts up, the corp rigger will be jumped in AND the corp hacker will be "patrolling" looking for the runner to connect. If the corp rigger slaved the drone, then said corp hacker will be on the master.
FenrisWolf
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 28 2010, 08:41 AM) *
If the rigger is jumped in, you can't spoof it. All outside connections are ignored, effectively, if the rigger's jumped in.


So would the PC hacker be able to attempt a hack on the fly and gain access to the corp rigger VR controlled drone? If so, what would the opposed test be?
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 28 2010, 09:54 AM) *
So would the PC hacker be able to attempt a hack on the fly and gain access to the corp rigger VR controlled drone? If so, what would the opposed test be?


Yes, he can still hack in as normal (Hacking + Exploit vs. Firewall + Analyze). But he wouldn't be able to control the drone, until the rigger is dealt with.

I meant outside commands, not outside connections, sorry.
FenrisWolf
QUOTE (Eratosthenes @ Apr 28 2010, 09:08 AM) *
Yes, he can still hack in as normal (Hacking + Exploit vs. Firewall + Analyze). But he wouldn't be able to control the drone, until the rigger is dealt with.

I meant outside commands, not outside connections, sorry.


But the PC hacker would then be able to engage in cyber combat with the corp rigger right? Is so, would the corp rigger's control of the drone bearing down on the PC in the back of the truck be temporarily halted during the cyber combat?
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 28 2010, 10:12 AM) *
But the PC hacker would then be able to engage in cyber combat with the corp rigger right? Is so, would the corp rigger's control of the drone bearing down on the PC in the back of the truck be temporarily halted during the cyber combat?


Yes, the PC hacker could attack the rigger in the node (assuming of course they spot them via their Matrix Perception check - is the rigger using a stealth program?)

Whether or not the drone continues to attack the PC's depends on how the rigger spends their actions. The rigger could attack the PC hacker in cybercombat, or manipulate the drone to attack others in meatspace.
LurkerOutThere
Basically the rigger is going to be having to make a choice, fight in the meat or fight in cybercombat, of course in the matrix you have enough IP's especially with hotsim booster if the NPC rigger is using it, that may not be as much of an issue.
FenrisWolf
Could the corp rigger using hotsim spend two of his IPs fending off the pc hacker and still use one IP to shoot the pc in the truck?
FenrisWolf
Double posted again.
Eratosthenes
Yup. He sure could.
LurkerOutThere
It's quite possible considering the corp knows a hacker is present they'll send not just a rigger but a combat spec'd hacker with him into the drone node to watch his back and let him concentrate on shooting the offending runners.
Karoline
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 28 2010, 09:54 AM) *
So would the PC hacker be able to attempt a hack on the fly and gain access to the corp rigger VR controlled drone? If so, what would the opposed test be?


No the PC could not. While the rigger is rigging his drone, the drone is slaved. A slaved drone cannot be hacked except by connecting to it directly with a fiberoptic cable, and even then, they need an extra 6 hits on their hacking test.

So no, a rigger that is rigging a drone is basically safe unless the hacker goes through the process of backtracing the connection (Via the sniffer program) and hacking into the rigger's own commlink (Which is likely to be overwatched by the corp hacker in addition to being highly secure and having its own IC).

QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Apr 28 2010, 08:41 AM) *
Uhm, sure about that? Isn't the whole point of slaving (besides security) the automatic rerouting of connections?


No, to my knowledge slaving is all about security. Now, the slaved device would likely send a message to the master device saying that so and so tried to connect, but the device wouldn't send the connection attempt up to its master. (This also means that the rigger would instantly get the info that he could pass along to the corp hacker so that the corp hacker can go after the PC hacker)
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 10:56 AM) *
No the PC could not. While the rigger is rigging his drone, the drone is slaved. A slaved drone cannot be hacked except by connecting to it directly with a fiberoptic cable, and even then, they need an extra 6 hits on their hacking test.


I'm AFB, but I don't think the drone is automatically slaved to the rigger's commlink just because they jump in. I think it could be, of course, and likely should be (if the rigger's smart).

A good example was posted earlier: the example of Netcat and Slamm-O attempting to divert an MCT Flyspy.
Karoline
You're right, the rules don't state that the drone is automatically slaved, but that is because such a system didn't exist when the rules were written. Given the nature of the connection and whatnot, I figure that there is 1. No reason a rigger wouldn't always do this, and 2. No reason that a rigged drone would bother accepting commands from anyone but the person rigging it.

So yes, no rule specifically saying that a drone must be slaved while it is rigged, but there is also no logical reason that wouldn't be the norm.
Eratosthenes
I agree. A smart rigger would slave the device as their first action, but it may or may not be something a rigger would overlook if they jump in to a drone and find a target rich environment. (Basically, give the players some way to engage in some exciting combat in both meat and cyber space, or just screw'em over and have a lethal drone in their back seat)

Another way for the PC's to deal with a drone rigged in would be to jam the connection. If the signal of the drone is reduced enough, the rigger would be dumped, at which point the hacker could then hack in.
Yerameyahu
Does it matter? Rigging overrides *all* other inputs. You can attack the rigger/drone (crash, nuke, etc.), but you can't do anything directly to interrupt his control while jumped in.
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 28 2010, 11:31 AM) *
Does it matter? Rigging overrides *all* other inputs. You can attack the rigger/drone (crash, nuke, etc.), but you can't do anything directly to interrupt his control while jumped in.


It does matter. A slaved device would not let a hacker hack into the drone (he'd have to go through the master device). A non-slaved device would allow a hacker to exploit their way in, where he could attack the rigger/crash the OS. So no, the hacker would not be able to operate the drone, but he could attack the operator.
Karoline
True, but personally if I was a rigger, it is something I would set my drones up to do automatically whenever I jump into them, not something I would simply always do whenever I jumped in. (And really, if the party is 'screwed over' because of a single drone... well, they might not be cut out for the shadows)

Yes, Jamming the connection totally works, though as soon as they drop the jamming for the hacker to hack into the drone, the rigger would pop right back in (though fiberoptics could be an option). Also, I'd think the rigger would set up the pilot (if it wasn't already for some weird reason) to attack stuff if he gets kicked.
LurkerOutThere
Why would they drop the jamming for the hacker to hack in, it's their jammer they should know it's skip key? I may need to relook at my books but essentially it makes logical sense that you don't suffer from your own Jammers.

Karoline
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 28 2010, 11:45 AM) *
Why would they drop the jamming for the hacker to hack in, it's their jammer they should know it's skip key? I may need to relook at my books but essentially it makes logical sense that you don't suffer from your own Jammers.


There is nothing in the books about being able to avoid your own jammers, and the very existence of directional jammers seems to indicate that you can't (The entire purpose of the direction jammers being so that you can jam just the enemy and not yourself).

There is ECCM which will help you downgrade the affect of a jammer on you, but if the jammer is taking out the drone entirely, it doesn't matter if you have ECCM or not, because you won't be able to get a response from the drone.
FenrisWolf
From my limited knowledge, I believe that the jamming party would jam all signals but their own. That would allow them to attempt to hack back into the drone. Of course, the pilot program of the drone would kick in and light the truck up.
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 11:49 AM) *
There is nothing in the books about being able to avoid your own jammers, and the very existence of directional jammers seems to indicate that you can't (The entire purpose of the direction jammers being so that you can jam just the enemy and not yourself).

There is ECCM which will help you downgrade the affect of a jammer on you, but if the jammer is taking out the drone entirely, it doesn't matter if you have ECCM or not, because you won't be able to get a response from the drone.


I half-remember reading something about being able to configure a jammer to block either all signals, or particular ones (so excluding your own team, for example).

As for advantages of Area vs. Directional...directional jammers degrade more slowly, so have a longer "reach".
Karoline
Okay, but even if you can bypass the jamming (still not convinced) the drone can't, so you still can't hack into it without dropping the jammer.
Yerameyahu
You'd have to be using the *selective* jammer in the first place, and I'm not convinced the rules let you jam any device AND connect to it. It's for jamming other people's comms while leaving yours free.

In any case, shouldn't all drones always be slaved, unless you can't afford the subscription limits?
otakusensei
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 10:58 AM) *
Okay, but even if you can bypass the jamming (still not convinced) the drone can't, so you still can't hack into it without dropping the jammer.


Nah, you setup the jammer to excude the wavelength you're communicating on. If everything is setup in advance there's no trouble.

I'm at work right now, but I believe the difference is between jammers and smart jammers. If I recall correctly smart jammers can be configured to not block you and your team.
Yerameyahu
Yes, but how can you selectively jam the drone AND connect to the drone? I feel like you get to pick one. This is not the same as jamming everyone's comms except your team's.
Eratosthenes
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 10:58 AM) *
Okay, but even if you can bypass the jamming (still not convinced) the drone can't, so you still can't hack into it without dropping the jammer.


A drone might not be slaved if multiple people (read, security spyder team/shift) were expected to access it. But even then, it might be slaved to a central control node. It really depends on how the security is set up.

And also, on how many drones that spyder's watching over. If they were supposed to keep watch on 10 drones patrolling a compound, they likely won't slave all of them, due to subscription limits (and response/performance hits). They'd likely just hop into each on now and again, with it configured to send him a message if they spot anything out of the ordinary.
FenrisWolf
Even if you could jam the wireless signal to the drone, wouldn't the dog brain take over?
otakusensei
QUOTE (FenrisWolf @ Apr 28 2010, 12:09 PM) *
Even if you could jam the wireless signal to the drone, wouldn't the dog brain take over?


Yup
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