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Bull
QUOTE (hermit @ May 8 2010, 02:18 PM) *
So DDH is coming around?


We hit a speed bump with our layout into PDF. Between a new job and promotion, some computer malfunctions, and his GF's insane-crazy accelerated Law School program, Caine Hazen just never had time to finish the first issue of the DDH. He really, really wanted to do it, which is why we didn't pass it off sooner (And we really should have, honestly). First issue has been written and artwork done since October, and the second issue is about 95% written and mostly edited. There's even some material kicking around for Issue #3. So I can blame Andy completely for this wink.gif Both he and I really wanted to produce something that was "Professional quality" in looks and design, which is why we didn't ever put up a "quick and dirty mostly text only" version.

Anyway, we passed it off to Chrome Tiger, who had some some work on background designs for the book. He's currently banging away at it. With being tied up with Missions for the foreseeable future, we've mostly passed it off entirely to him, though I'll still be around to help as I can. I know he's hoping to have something ready for release sometime this month. I'll poke him and see if he can get an update posted somewhere soon.

Bull
Ancient History
[/edit] Removed a personal attack.
JongWK
QUOTE (hermit @ May 8 2010, 09:39 AM) *
And almost anything is better than the Poser 3 botch job of Augmentation. Not the German naked borgified elf in dayglo liquid, though.


eek.gif

Ever seen Exalted's Savant & Sorcerer cover?



QUOTE (Bull @ May 8 2010, 12:26 PM) *
And AH: Jason isn't the first dev to describe Shadowrun as Noir. When I interviewed Mike Mulvihill for the Shadowrun Supplemental ages and ages ago, that's a word he used as well.


That's why he hired Prescott so much, right? wink.gif
hermit
QUOTE
Ever seen Exalted's Savant & Sorcerer cover?

No, but this meshes reasonably well with Exalted for all I know. The German borgified elf in dayglo liquid doesn't have much to do with Shadowrun, since Shadowrun is not about people in vats on some abandoned grimdark space station that glow green at all. Naked or not. My beef with that cover is not the nakedness, it's the borgified abandoned space station feel.

I really like the other German alternative covers, but jeez, that one was unnecessary and only picked because wow, we're so much less prudish than Americans. Still more tasteful than the Exalted cover, but that doesn't take much of an effort.

I'd have preferred something actually having relevance to the contents of the book. Like the over-armed, smirking Ork on the Arsenal, or the Troll hacker on Vernetzt, or even the wow fire elementals are hot dwarf on Straßenmagie. *shrugs*

QUOTE
We hit a speed bump with our layout into PDF. Between a new job and promotion, some computer malfunctions, and his GF's insane-crazy accelerated Law School program, Caine Hazen just never had time to finish the first issue of the DDH. He really, really wanted to do it, which is why we didn't pass it off sooner (And we really should have, honestly). First issue has been written and artwork done since October, and the second issue is about 95% written and mostly edited. There's even some material kicking around for Issue #3. So I can blame Andy completely for this wink.gif Both he and I really wanted to produce something that was "Professional quality" in looks and design, which is why we didn't ever put up a "quick and dirty mostly text only" version.

Do you take commissions?
Tanegar
QUOTE (JongWK @ May 8 2010, 06:05 PM) *
eek.gif

Ever seen Exalted's Savant & Sorcerer cover?

In great Cthulhu's unholy name... I think that goes beyond stripperiffic into pornstariffic territory.

*Right-clicks and chooses "Save image as..."*
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (JongWK @ May 8 2010, 06:05 PM) *
Ever seen Exalted's Savant & Sorcerer cover?


Post #68 in the epically long RPG Motivational Poster thread on the RPGnet forums.
knasser
QUOTE (Bull @ May 8 2010, 04:26 PM) *
No offense to Knasser, but cyberpunk has always been Shadowruns default description. And always will be.


I have this mental image of you with your hands over your ears and your eyes shut going "la la la, cyberpunk, cyberpunk". I don't imagine that many people under the age of thirty think cyberpunk is "cool" in any way. Technology is no longer something that inherently alienates and dehumanizes - it's a cool thing that promises much. We're in an age of techno-optimism. And rightly so, I think. Punk itself may not be dead, but it certainly smells that way. Cyberpunk was a genre where cool outsiders slunk through the shadows of monolithic corporations and reveled in their outsideriness. That's a pretty hard mindset for most people to relate to these days. Even the teenagers I know these days find teenage Outsider Angst, well, immature and most of them are carefully deciding which University course will offer them the best balance of career prospects and lifestyle freedom. biggrin.gif . I have a player in my group who is very attached to his character and for ages, I just couldn't get where he was coming from. Until it finally clicked that he enjoyed fact that his character was a failure and that it was the fault of giant evil corporations in the game. He can't relate to positive, ladder climbing types and I just couldn't get why his character kept trying to pretend those ladders weren't there. Sort of "no, no! I'm downtrodden! Don't make the corps actually welcome my valuable combat skills!"

Cyberpunk is dead. Certainly as fashion. Hopefully as self-indulgent alienation-porn and most definitely as a popular future movement.

Shadowrun can either go with its own unique brand of energetic dystopia, or it can be held back by aging fans of a dead genre. One of the things that was so very, very good about 4th was how modern it felt.

The default description of Shadowrun is not "cyberpunk" as you say it is above. The default description is "shooting people in the face for money, with elves." Angsty "ooh, I'm less human because I have a prothesis" is happily (for the future of the game) sinking into the dark depths of the Eighties that spawned it.

Khadim "I feel better now" Nasser. wink.gif
Rotbart van Dainig
The term you are looking for is transhumanism.

And yes, that's canon culture in SR4.
Sengir
QUOTE (hermit @ May 9 2010, 12:42 AM) *
The German borgified elf in dayglo liquid doesn't have much to do with Shadowrun, since Shadowrun is not about people in vats on some abandoned grimdark space station that glow green at all.

It's a metahuman in a clinical environment and she's obviously got some augmentations, augmentations of the more modern kind and not the ones which look like cannibalized excavator parts affixed with Spax screws - IMO quite fitting for a rulebook with new to cutting-edge medtech, but artwork tastes are hardly universal.
Rotbart van Dainig
You know, even in the walled city of Kowloon, the (dentists) clinics where… white. And there are nice clinic-vat pictures around in SR art.

It's just a generic borg-vat kind of picture with pointy ears added… about as bland and non-SR as the german cover for Arsenal – which featured The S stamped on a shirt.
Art direction isn't just about making sure the art is up to snuff – it also about making sure the art get's the setting across.
Sengir
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ May 9 2010, 11:20 AM) *
about as bland and non-SR as the german cover for Arsenal – which featured The S stamped on a shirt.

I like that one, too...minus the background. But the ork is somebody you can justifiably call "metahuman" and not just something Frodo might encounter during his trip.

QUOTE
it also about making sure the art get's the setting across.

...or just the part of the setting the book is about. If you want the whole setting, just print the old 4th BBB cover art on every book wink.gif
knasser
QUOTE (Sengir @ May 9 2010, 12:14 PM) *
It's a metahuman in a clinical environment and she's obviously got some augmentations, augmentations of the more modern kind and not the ones which look like cannibalized excavator parts affixed with Spax screws - IMO quite fitting for a rulebook with new to cutting-edge medtech, but artwork tastes are hardly universal.


I don't actually dislike that cover. I don't laud it as the apex of Shadowrun art, but it doesn't bother me so much. Oddly enough, the naked elf girl looks a lot less a matter of catering to sexual fantasies as the more clothed woman on the magazine cover. The former is someone that just so happens to be naked. The latter looks like its trying to cater to desperate and lonely males. And I tell you what *really* puts me off buying a book, is a cover that suggests I'm buying the book because it has breasts on the cover. Even the dreadful cover of Augmentation (were the orks really just models lifted from a generic fantasy setting? That explains a lot), didn't do that.

K
LurkerOutThere
Knasser: You are my hero.

I don't mind noir, I don't mind horror, and I certainly don't mind espionage, but this concept of cyberpuink of a bunch of people in leather and mohawks rocking out on computers the size of riot shields doesn't do the setting any justice, it validates more or less everything that Gibson said about Shadowrun, because the man knows when someone has stolen his crappy idea, because he stole it first. I'm not saying it's not a valid way to play but Shadowrun is was always at it's best when it was a future that could be, where as Cyberpunk is now quite firmly a future that never will be.

Edit addendum: Of course the counter to that is transhumanism keeps getting hijacked by people that think we're all going to end up as furries, I'd rather see Cybertech in SR become so ubiquitous people don't even realize their self enhancing, merely getting what everyone else gets.
Rotbart van Dainig
You did notice that bioware fur doesn't cost essence? grinbig.gif
Demonseed Elite
I agree with knasser too. It's not that I dislike cyberpunk, I actually enjoy it very much. But I agree with him that it's a lot less relevant to today's new gamers. If Shadowrun were not a game that constantly evolves, as a nature of its continuous metaplot, I'd be fine with keeping it as a niche cyberpunk setting catering to an old literary aesthetic. Hell, I even think it'd be neat if there were a "cyberpunk theme book" for Shadowrun. But it's very difficult to constantly develop a setting rooted in a futurist philosophy that has become increasingly obsolete.

The world has moved on. The young don't recognize cyberpunk anymore as anything but a quaint old prediction that didn't come to pass. I love Soviet utopian architecture and art, but I know it's absurdist in that it was a prediction of a world that will not happen. I think Knasser's right that today's movement includes a strong sense of technological optimism: it's definitely present in post-cyberpunk literature and transhumanism. I also think that doesn't make things easy for Shadowrun writers, because it's difficult (but not impossible) to design a setting where shadowrunners exist in a world of technological optimism. At the very least, technology can't be the bad guy in that setting, it's not the factor that is alienating people and making them run the shadows.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 9 2010, 07:42 AM) *
Edit addendum: Of course the counter to that is transhumanism keeps getting hijacked by people that think we're all going to end up as furries, I'd rather see Cybertech in SR become so ubiquitous people don't even realize their self enhancing, merely getting what everyone else gets.


Coincidentally, Jamais Cascio posted an article just yesterday that you should read.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ May 9 2010, 10:05 AM) *


Just read that article before I came here. I reccomend it--it was interesting, and I'll be processing it throughout the day I'm sure.

Jason H.
Bull
QUOTE (knasser @ May 9 2010, 06:34 AM) *
I have this mental image of you with your hands over your ears and your eyes shut going "la la la, cyberpunk, cyberpunk". *snip*


Here's the thing. SHadowrun doesn't need relevenace to anyhing, modern or otherwise. It's simply based on a fantasy concept, not real life, not anything else.

Deadlands is based on a specific period in the old west, with some twists. If the game had managed to last, the game would have still been Old West Horror, no matter how the horror genre or the western genre changed, because that was the game it was based on. D&D is still "go into caves and kill monsters" because that's the concept of the game. And Shadowrun is still "Shoot People in the Face for money in a Cyberpunk setting". You want Transhumanism? Go play Eclipse Phase.

I'm not saying RPGs need to stagnate and never change, grow, or evolve. Especially one with a world like Shadowrun. But you can't change the core of the game. THat's why people constantly make new RPGs. THe core themes and core genres need to stay the same, or you become a completely different game, and you alienate your old players. And while you want to attract new players, the fact is in this hobby, we don't attract that many new players. I'd bet money that the average age of gamers is over 30 these days, just like the average comic fan.

If I want to play Cyberpunk, I play Shadowrun. I want to play Transhumanism, I'll play Eclipse Phase. That's why different games and different systems exist in the first place.

Bull
Sengir
QUOTE (knasser @ May 9 2010, 01:16 PM) *
I don't actually dislike that cover. I don't laud it as the apex of Shadowrun art, but it doesn't bother me so much. Oddly enough, the naked elf girl looks a lot less a matter of catering to sexual fantasies as the more clothed woman on the magazine cover. The former is someone that just so happens to be naked. The latter looks like its trying to cater to desperate and lonely males. And I tell you what *really* puts me off buying a book, is a cover that suggests I'm buying the book because it has breasts on the cover.

Like I said wink.gif
Bull
Just as a random note about the cover with the Caution Tape girl, the artist is female. Doesn't mean it's not sexist, of course, but... <shrug>

I think it looks kinda cool. And it's some good art.

Bull
knasser
QUOTE (Bull @ May 9 2010, 06:59 PM) *
Just as a random note about the cover with the Caution Tape girl, the artist is female. Doesn't mean it's not sexist, of course, but... <shrug>


Sexist is ill-defined and there's nothing particularly sexist about a woman voluntarily posing to look sexy. Some people like to look sexy (though if you want to get an idea why some women might dislike it, picture a sexually provocative male on the cover waving his bulging low-cut jock strap at you). No, my mild dislike of the cover is nothing to do with "sexist" (whatever that means in this context) but that it's (a) false because she looks like a model made up as a media idea of a Shadowrunner for some photoshoot and (b) it makes the book look like it's using sub-porn sexualised imagery to sell me the product. And as I said, the one thing that really puts me off is looking like that's what I'm after in a book. Contrast this with the cover of Runner's Companion which manages to show someone much more authentic looking (as a Shadowrunner) without doing the "buy this book, it's got boobs!".

As I say, it's a matter of taste.

Regarding the cyberpunk issue, you say that "SHadowrun doesn't need relevenace to anyhing, modern or otherwise". Well plainly it does need to be relevant to people or they wont be interested in it and that's bad. You say it's "simply based on a fantasy setting, not real life" but one of the things I consider a great strong point of Shadowrun (and I'm certain many others will agree), is that it does have a strong dose of realism. If it didn't, then everyone could be still running around with briefcase sized "cyberdecks" and going home to check their answer phones. biggrin.gif But we'd just find that funny at best nowadays, and destroying our immersion in the setting at worst. Shadowrun needed a reboot and it got it. I've said this before but the presence of elves and magic doesn't make realism less important, it makes it more.

And that realism is not just about not needing a "deck" the weight of a brick in order to send an IM to someone. It extends to social, political and corporate movements and organizations. As I said, the future portrayed by the cyberpunk genre just looks quaint these days. No-one takes it seriously.

QUOTE (Bull)
And Shadowrun is still "Shoot People in the Face for money in a Cyberpunk setting".


No, It's "shoot people in the face for money, with elves". It doesn't need to be cyberpunk and it never purely was. I find it hard to believe that you say that not considering it cyberpunk is "changing the core of the game". I have no good data on the average age of RPG gamers these days, but I certainly hope there is a good sized under thirty component or the game is dead. I've passed thirty, but I certainly don't want to keep the game fixed in some millieu that was popular when I was twelve! I don't even want to for my sake as my tastes have long, long since moved on (not that I ever really got 'cyberpunk' - it was a culture that de facto excluded me). And I certainly don't want to see Shadowrun passed over by new players who absolutely cannot relate to hang-ups they don't share.

4th Edition can't be accurately described as cyberpunk. It's its own thing and it has a lot to offer. It's got its own towering, dynamic, more... alive... dystopia than any of the previous editions. I started with first edition and I really liked it. Still do. But contrary to your adamant, subjective statements that Shadowrun "is cyberpunk", I disagree. It isn't. Even if you'd like it to be.

I feel quite strongly about this. Above all else, cyberpunk has been done. It's thirty years old. It's boring. And that's something we can't allow Shadowrun to be. It has too much to offer. And if it's true what you say that it's not attracting much new blood, then that's not an argument for things not staying relevant as you use it. It's an argument for making it more relevant. Not that my interest is particularly in making it relevant to "a new generation". I personally can't relate to cyberpunk at all and I started with 1st Edition: 'Hey lets mope about wearing clunky bits of technology and bemoan how we're alienated by modern life.' I mean, what's that all about? wink.gif

K.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Bull @ May 9 2010, 01:11 PM) *
Here's the thing. SHadowrun doesn't need relevenace to anyhing, modern or otherwise. It's simply based on a fantasy concept, not real life, not anything else.

Deadlands is based on a specific period in the old west, with some twists. If the game had managed to last, the game would have still been Old West Horror, no matter how the horror genre or the western genre changed, because that was the game it was based on. D&D is still "go into caves and kill monsters" because that's the concept of the game. And Shadowrun is still "Shoot People in the Face for money in a Cyberpunk setting". You want Transhumanism? Go play Eclipse Phase.

I'm not saying RPGs need to stagnate and never change, grow, or evolve. Especially one with a world like Shadowrun. But you can't change the core of the game. THat's why people constantly make new RPGs. THe core themes and core genres need to stay the same, or you become a completely different game, and you alienate your old players. And while you want to attract new players, the fact is in this hobby, we don't attract that many new players. I'd bet money that the average age of gamers is over 30 these days, just like the average comic fan.

If I want to play Cyberpunk, I play Shadowrun. I want to play Transhumanism, I'll play Eclipse Phase. That's why different games and different systems exist in the first place.


The core of the game has been changing though. For twenty years. Not necessarily deliberately, but new authors come on board from different backgrounds, influenced by different experiences in their lives. Now, sure, it's the job of the line developer to guide these authors, but line developers are also shaped by their experiences. I doubt that Tom Dowd and Rob Boyle have the same outlook on life, but both brought their own backgrounds to Shadowrun for a time.

And there are certain inevitable changes that Shadowrun has to deal with. For instance, the developers could have chosen to keep Shadowrun's tech level pretty much stagnant; it certainly would have helped preserve the cyberpunk feel. But they didn't. Now deckers aren't carrying around big old decks with cords running to their heads; everyone has a commlink that is so ubiquitous that you don't scream "decker!" if you're seen on the street with one. A guy with a deck used to be the outsider, the rebel. Now the guy with the commlink is the same as everyone else.

As for Shadowrun's connection to real world themes, I think one thing that separates it from most other RPGs is that when it originally came out, it was grappling with some very relevant ideas (as was cyberpunk). It's not like D&D or Deadlands in that regard, which could have both come out at any time in modern history and not had any connection to real world events. Shadowrun has been pretty deeply tied to the time of its development, which is a limiting factor, but is also one of its strengths.
Bull
Well, I strongly disagree with your "It's boring" statement. I still find it interesting, fun, and relevant. Obviously you need to adjust and adapt some, but... I think Shadowrun loses it's shape some, and it's internal logic, the more you move away from that concept.

Also, I have a feeling we have two different definitions for what Cyberpunk is.

My one problem with the more trans-humanistic aspects of SR4, and some of the design aesthetics that have been injected into the game, is that at a certain point, Shadowrunners become irrelevant and even illogical to a large degree.

At it's core, and this is a Cyberpunk dystopian staple, is that there basically existed three classes of people. The "Haves" (The slim minority of people that are rich, powerful, and run corporations or crime organizations or whatever). The "Have Nots" (The Wage Slaves who are crushed into a mindless existence because they're controlled by the Haves in every way). And the "Never Hads" (The SINless. Squatters. The people outside the system who don't exist and get nothing because of it). Shadowrunners were generally either "Have Nots" that couldn't bear to be part of the mindless grind, or "Never Hads" who were trying to rise above it. THe indivdual reasons varied, but generally it came down to that simple concept... Trying to be something else.

This divide has largely evaporated. Cyberware and Bio is cheap. Travel is cheap. On the criminal side of things, fake SINS are cheap. There's no longer a need for people to be Shadowrunners to make a life for themselves. The Corps don't control everything. Governments are once again stable and a power. Almost everything that makes Cyberpunk and a Dystopia has been slowly stripped away. And with it, the primary reason to be a Shadowrunner.

Unless you're mentally unstable. That's all that's logically left to be a shadowrunner. There's no reason to be one if you have any kind of stable mindset, because you can easily enough buy a "normal life". You don't have to "fight the man/corp" because there's no other option. After a couple runs, you can buy necessary cyberware to go back to living a normal life. YOu can buy a fake SIN and probably live a normal existance.

Granted, Shadowrunners have never been entirely stable, but honestly? Going back almost every character I made for 1st through 3rd edition? None of them have a valid reason to have either become Shadowrunners or to have stayed Shadowrunners in the world of SR4. At least as written.

Bull
Bull
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ May 9 2010, 02:49 PM) *
The core of the game has been changing though. For twenty years. Not necessarily deliberately, but new authors come on board from different backgrounds, influenced by different experiences in their lives. Now, sure, it's the job of the line developer to guide these authors, but line developers are also shaped by their experiences. I doubt that Tom Dowd and Rob Boyle have the same outlook on life, but both brought their own backgrounds to Shadowrun for a time.

And there are certain inevitable changes that Shadowrun has to deal with. For instance, the developers could have chosen to keep Shadowrun's tech level pretty much stagnant; it certainly would have helped preserve the cyberpunk feel. But they didn't. Now deckers aren't carrying around big old decks with cords running to their heads; everyone has a commlink that is so ubiquitous that you don't scream "decker!" if you're seen on the street with one. A guy with a deck used to be the outsider, the rebel. Now the guy with the commlink is the same as everyone else.

As for Shadowrun's connection to real world themes, I think one thing that separates it from most other RPGs is that when it originally came out, it was grappling with some very relevant ideas (as was cyberpunk). It's not like D&D or Deadlands in that regard, which could have both come out at any time in modern history and not had any connection to real world events. Shadowrun has been pretty deeply tied to the time of its development, which is a limiting factor, but is also one of its strengths.


Agreed to an extent, but see my other post above. There's more to it than the tech, a lot more. I think Shadowruns gotten watered down though by a lot of things, and Tech Advancement is only one (And that's not something I'm entirely against). The reason for shadowrunning has been lost. And all you're left with is pyscho criminals with guns.

Bull
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Bull @ May 9 2010, 12:11 PM) *
Here's the thing. SHadowrun doesn't need relevenace to anyhing, modern or otherwise. It's simply based on a fantasy concept, not real life, not anything else.


I would fundamentally disagree, what drew me into Shadowrun all those years ago was the feeling of relevance the concerns of the eighties dialed up to eleven and the consideration of long term effects of both magic and far reaching technology would have on a world, that is at least on the surface a possible(within context) future for our own. The escapism that I gleen from the sandbox the joy of mixing it up in a world of megacorporate balkanization and intrigue is what keeps me coming back, but it is that hint of real that makes the rest of it work for me at least.

QUOTE
Deadlands is based on a specific period in the old west, with some twists. If the game had managed to last, the game would have still been Old West Horror, no matter how the horror genre or the western genre changed, because that was the game it was based on. D&D is still "go into caves and kill monsters" because that's the concept of the game. And Shadowrun is still "Shoot People in the Face for money in a Cyberpunk setting". You want Transhumanism? Go play Eclipse Phase.
Deadlands is still being published although yes the essential story isn't being moved forward and upturned too much, part of that is because they started to involve time travel in the game setting.

QUOTE
I'm not saying RPGs need to stagnate and never change, grow, or evolve. Especially one with a world like Shadowrun. But you can't change the core of the game. THat's why people constantly make new RPGs. THe core themes and core genres need to stay the same, or you become a completely different game, and you alienate your old players. And while you want to attract new players, the fact is in this hobby, we don't attract that many new players. I'd bet money that the average age of gamers is over 30 these days, just like the average comic fan.


This is a tired old argument, it implies A) The old guards opinions are inherantly more valid B) It implies their actually right, which if you ask a question on dumpshock you'll ge tthree seperate answers. C) It implies that all trends are static decline

QUOTE
If I want to play Cyberpunk, I play Shadowrun. I want to play Transhumanism, I'll play Eclipse Phase. That's why different games and different systems exist in the first place.


If i want to play Shadowrun, I play Shadowrun, the implication that I'm playing it for Cyberpunk themes, which frankly it doesn't do very well what with all the super awesome Immortal Elves and Great Dragons running things and the cyberware eating your soul aspect, rings very false. There is a game called cyberpunk if you really want to hack the Gibson. It's not nearly as good, but acting like Cyberpunk is the be all end all of SR really sells it short.
hermit
QUOTE
On the criminal side of things, fake SINS are cheap.

One of SR4's more glring design faults. Can easily be fixed by making them go to 12 and the 6-12 range be a lot more expensive. Rating 10 to 12 would also actually be realistically be viable for more thana few lucky tests according to SIN check rules.

QUOTE
Governments are once again stable and a power.

Shadowrun never was CP2020. Also, governments in SR are a spowerful as real-world governments. That's depressingly powerless.

QUOTE
Almost everything that makes Cyberpunk and a Dystopia has been slowly stripped away. And with it, the primary reason to be a Shadowrunner.

I think companies like Blackwater (or thatever their current name is ... Rho Technologies, was it?) disagree with you about there being a need for dismissable assets in such a world.

Ultimatly, shadowrunners are mercenary agents. It's not like this concept won't work in a less dreary, misunderstood gibsonian type of world. The whole stick-it-to-the-man-by-working-for-them-because-my-life-sucks never made any sense in the first place.

And myself, I play shadowrun for the urban magic angle. It'S combination of near future scifi (which i always have been a sucker for) and high magic is both absurd and strangely working. I see shadowrunners, as mentioned above, as part of the system, not some raging anti system non conformists who somehow work with the system by rejecting it.
Demonseed Elite
Well, I do stand on some common ground with Bull in that in order for shadowrunners to make sense, a sharp divide between the Haves and the Have-Nots needs to still exist and it should probably be sharper than the real world we live in. So while I think Shadowrun's development over time has led to a less cyberpunk attitude towards technology, I think economic disparity needs to remain dystopian. I'm still unconvinced that national governments wield considerable power in Shadowrun, even with the increased attention they've gotten lately. The true power is still in the hands of the megacorps, who still do not care about a segment of the population (the SINless) beyond those of them they can use as disposable, deniable assets.

And I still think it's possible to have a more optimistic view about technology and still have a depressing economic disparity. Our own world today is an unfortunate example of that: all the iPhones and Facebook users in the world aren't helping us out of a sad global economic mess of our own creation. If anything, the economic situation was made worse not by the dehumanizing technology, but by very human greed, selfishness, and instant gratification.
RunnerPaul
Instead of relying on economic disparity, one could turn to an ideological one. Only the highest tiers of the corporate power structure have any true freedom in what they want to do with their lives, the rest only have the illusion of choice. Shadowrunners are the ones who step outside of the system in search of regaining that freedom.
FlakJacket
In regards to the covers how much art direction versus a free hand does the artist get? Curious since I know next to nothing about the process.
Cardul
Someone made a point about the Caution Tape Girl looking like a media mock-up of what a Shadowrunner
should be, and would not buy a book because the cover looks like it is trying to say "Buy it! It has boobs!"
I am wondering though, what if the book is such that having a Media-spun-up cover is actually appropriate for
it?

(Then again, I think I am one of the few people who actually liked the American cover of Arsenal)

As for Bull's assertion that the SR4A setting has no reason to be a shadowrunner, I disgree there. It is just you
have to think outside the modern world. I still believe in the Robin Hood view of Shadowrunners. I still look
at things from a different angle, as well. Where bull sees Fake SINs as being easy to acquire, I see them as
inexpensive to get, but what about the long term cost WHEN you get caught having a fake SIN? You are still
going to go to a Prison...and read the descriptions in Seattle 2072...you think ANYONE wants to go near any of
those places? And remember, no SIN means you might not even GET to a trial. Shadowrunning might be dangerous,
deadly, and violent, but a)it is pretty much no more dangerous then life in the Barrens and b) it is far more
lucrative then what a legitimate job can be. And, to get up from the bottom, you need money...
hermit
QUOTE
And remember, no SIN means you might not even GET to a trial.

Of course you will. And a brand new criminal SIN on top of it!

QUOTE
but a)it is pretty much no more dangerous then life in the Barrens and b) it is far more
lucrative then what a legitimate job can be.

Not with the bullshit payment rules SR4 has, it's not. SR4 wanted runners to be true, meaning impoverished, underpaid, and oh so radical. It overlooked that, using the standards it ser for sale of items and the ludicrous hacking possibilities, a life of car theft is far more lucrative than being a shadowrunner (and far less lethal).
Cardul
QUOTE (hermit @ May 10 2010, 06:07 AM) *
Not with the bullshit payment rules SR4 has, it's not. SR4 wanted runners to be true, meaning impoverished, underpaid, and oh so radical. It overlooked that, using the standards it ser for sale of items and the ludicrous hacking possibilities, a life of car theft is far more lucrative than being a shadowrunner (and far less lethal).



See...I keep hearing this mentioned, but have never been able to find the rules people mention, in either SR4
or SR4A. Then again, I understand that the foreign editions have somethings that get changed or added, so
it might not be there...

I mean, how can you make hard and fast rules on how much the Johnson is going to pay to get the McGuffin
retrieved and then kill the party at the meet?(Remember: it is not a Shadowrun until the Johnson tries to kill
you!)
Fuchs
QUOTE (Bull @ May 9 2010, 09:01 PM) *
At it's core, and this is a Cyberpunk dystopian staple, is that there basically existed three classes of people. The "Haves" (The slim minority of people that are rich, powerful, and run corporations or crime organizations or whatever). The "Have Nots" (The Wage Slaves who are crushed into a mindless existence because they're controlled by the Haves in every way). And the "Never Hads" (The SINless. Squatters. The people outside the system who don't exist and get nothing because of it). Shadowrunners were generally either "Have Nots" that couldn't bear to be part of the mindless grind, or "Never Hads" who were trying to rise above it. THe indivdual reasons varied, but generally it came down to that simple concept... Trying to be something else.

This divide has largely evaporated. Cyberware and Bio is cheap. Travel is cheap. On the criminal side of things, fake SINS are cheap. There's no longer a need for people to be Shadowrunners to make a life for themselves. The Corps don't control everything. Governments are once again stable and a power. Almost everything that makes Cyberpunk and a Dystopia has been slowly stripped away. And with it, the primary reason to be a Shadowrunner.

Unless you're mentally unstable. That's all that's logically left to be a shadowrunner. There's no reason to be one if you have any kind of stable mindset, because you can easily enough buy a "normal life". You don't have to "fight the man/corp" because there's no other option. After a couple runs, you can buy necessary cyberware to go back to living a normal life. YOu can buy a fake SIN and probably live a normal existance.


Those who want to fight "the man" or the system and use violence are usually called terrorists. Leftists in the case of the RAF and the likes, mostly islamists these days. The 80s Shadowrunners you talk about were just that, terrorists, with an anarchists or eco-fundamentalist ideology. And of course they would depict the non-violent law-abiding people as downtrodden sheep.

But tyou are wrong. Even in SR1 Shadowrunners were depicted as deniable assets, professionals, mercenaries. Not as terrorists working for their ideology.

And that hasn't changed in SR4. Shadowrunners are still professional criminals. Who do high-risk jobs for large amounts of money. Or to rise in their organized crime syndicate of choice. But not to simply be different.
hermit
QUOTE
I mean, how can you make hard and fast rules on how much the Johnson is going to pay to get the McGuffin retrieved and then kill the party at the meet?

Been in every edition sicne the 2nd. Been largely ignored by official publications till Missions 4.0, though, so nobody reallythought about it.

Still, why be a runner if hacking westwinds with your minimum wage SuperHAXXXX commlink of all-6 stats nets you easiy three times the income AND doesn't have Johnsons shoot you? The point being, minimum wage always doublecrossed runners won't work, in either edition. The shadows need some level of proffessionality, or Johnson will have a hard time finding people to do his dirty work if he tries to kill them (and not live very long either).

Shadowrunners work well as freelance agents or spy mercenaries, in any edition again.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Cardul @ May 10 2010, 01:26 PM) *
See...I keep hearing this mentioned, but have never been able to find the rules people mention, in either SR4
or SR4A. Then again, I understand that the foreign editions have somethings that get changed or added, so
it might not be there...

I mean, how can you make hard and fast rules on how much the Johnson is going to pay to get the McGuffin
retrieved and then kill the party at the meet?(Remember: it is not a Shadowrun until the Johnson tries to kill
you!)


The rules for fencing loot.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (RunnerPaul @ May 9 2010, 07:37 PM) *
Instead of relying on economic disparity, one could turn to an ideological one. Only the highest tiers of the corporate power structure have any true freedom in what they want to do with their lives, the rest only have the illusion of choice. Shadowrunners are the ones who step outside of the system in search of regaining that freedom.


I think an ideological motivation should always be there, but it shouldn't be the only one. Not all shadowrunners are fighting the good fight, some are just in a shitty situation and see shadowrunning as their way out.
Adam
QUOTE (Bull @ May 9 2010, 01:11 PM) *
Here's the thing. SHadowrun doesn't need relevenace to anyhing, modern or otherwise. It's simply based on a fantasy concept, not real life, not anything else.


I did a lot of laundry yesterday, so I have plenty of needed room to roll around on my floor laughing.
augmentin
@ Caution Tape Girl: Tom Dowd said it best

@ everything Khadim's said in this thread: completely and totally agree.

@ reasons for Shadowrunning: you're assuming that it's an optimized decision making process. If anything, the decision to run the shadows would be one of satisficing (see "The Science of Muddling Through").

Further, there's the sociological aspect. If all the coolest Trids are Gone in 60 Seconds the world is going to have a lot of cyber/mystic Grand Theft Auto-ing going on. If all the coolest Triads are Karl Combat Mage, the world is going to see a lot of shadowrunners. In other words, I was grunt. Being an infantryman is not a military career path that lends itself to post-military success in life. But, I played with G.I. Joes a lot as a kid, played Shadowrun as a teenager, and watch a lot of Peacemaker and True Lies as a young adult. Thus, when I joined the service, there was a strong desire to do the things I dreamed about all my life.

Finally, in a universe as complex and diverse as SR4 the game should provide the PCs with many, many reasons to run the shadows, or not to run the shadows. The game is big enough the PCs can choose to work as mercenaries, doc wagon, or a start up security firm. The point is, the shadowrun world is huge and rich. (Well, unless your a native-american, then you've been almost completely forgotten since SR2.../end mini-rant.) Your PC could choose to run the shadows for any and all of the reasons discussed in this thread and many more...
knasser
QUOTE (Cardul @ May 10 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Someone made a point about the Caution Tape Girl looking like a media mock-up of what a Shadowrunner
should be, and would not buy a book because the cover looks like it is trying to say "Buy it! It has boobs!"


Just to clarify (because I'm the "someone" you refer to), I don't class this book as "wont buy because of the cover". It's not nearly that bad. The artwork is quite well done for a start. But it's definitely a misjudgement as far as I'm concerned. Oddly enough, the cover of the very first Shadowrun book ever had a considerably less clothed woman on the cover but I still find that used less as a selling point than the magazine cover. Anyway, lets not take these to extremes. It's a piece of artwork I find a little false. It's not so bad it would stop me buying the book.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ May 10 2010, 12:51 AM) *
Well, I do stand on some common ground with Bull in that in order for shadowrunners to make sense, a sharp divide between the Haves and the Have-Nots needs to still exist and it should probably be sharper than the real world we live in. So while I think Shadowrun's development over time has led to a less cyberpunk attitude towards technology, I think economic disparity needs to remain dystopian.


I agree with the sharp economic divide. But that concept is not owned by the cyberpunk genre. wink.gif In fact, I think it's better without the loaded value system of that specific genre to define that divide. We're all a lot wiser than we were twenty years ago. I think people picking up the game for the first time now are generally wiser than most people were at that age twenty years ago. And that means we need shades of grey and gradiation. It can't be a lot of cool outcasts sticking it to the Man, because I think most of us don't want to be rebellious outsiders. And RPGs, generally, are about being who you want to be.

K.

Cardul
QUOTE (Fuchs @ May 10 2010, 07:09 AM) *
The rules for fencing loot.


Wait, so you have to determine the value of the loot for a run to determine the
pay the Johnson is giving for retrieving the McGuffin? That seems kind of silly.

I mean, you are saying that is determining how much money the Johnson pays, since
you are saying those rules make it more profitable to steal cars then run in the shadows.
I do not buy that one bit, myself. Short term, sure...long term, though, you are going to
be getting bigger pay for runs then for stealing a car.
Stahlseele
Let's say you get 10k for one run, let's say you have one run per week(ridiculous in my eyes)
Let's say you get 1k for a car. you can steal and sell at least one car per day. so at least 7k per week.
Without much risk only 7k less and a medium lifestyle is at 5k or so per MONTH.
And you more or less have a regular income too . .
Cardul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 11 2010, 06:24 AM) *
Let's say you get 10k for one run, let's say you have one run per week(ridiculous in my eyes)
Let's say you get 1k for a car. you can steal and sell at least one car per day. so at least 7k per week.
Without much risk only 7k less and a medium lifestyle is at 5k or so per MONTH.
And you more or less have a regular income too . .


And where are you getting that 10K for one run from? Honestly, I have always used a more
"Take the Karma the Run is going to make, multiply it by 10K. Multiply that by 5, then divide
among the team." This means that a Run should always make at least 20K per Runner for
a 5 man team(a little more for a 4 man team, a little less for a 6 man team). Because,
of course, you get 1 Karma for completeing the objective, and 1 Karma for just showing up,
on the most basic of runs. This also provides a way for players to know when the pay is enough
that the Johnson is not telling them everything(which a good Runner should know). Of course,
I also provide extras based on things like "The run must be done in X hours, or at X time."
Player Negotiations can, of course, get it above the base price..but the "Up front pay" is
usually fixed.
hermit
That is far above the payment suggested by SR4, and considering the cheapnes sof gear, far beyond what makes sense to not have mundanes (hackers especially) instantly hitting the all-6 glass ceiling of upgradability.

And still. A team has how many runs per month? One? Two? Assuming four, that'S 80K.

Stealing a Westwind a day is conceivable. A W3K is worth 150K. If you negotiate shit, you get 15K for the car. Make that 3K because the mob takes it's share. You still make 3K a day, which, in 30 days, means 90K per month for a low-risk job.

All you need to do is be a hacker and complete one of your runs for a fabulous all-6 commlink. The car's device level 2 security measures will cease to exist for you, and you will have absolutly no reason to ever go on another shadowrun unless that somehow turns you on or something.
Kid Chameleon
QUOTE (hermit @ May 11 2010, 06:01 AM) *
Stealing a Westwind a day is conceivable. A W3K is worth 150K.


How many Westwinds do you think are out there? You think you could steal a Ferrari a day in 2010?
Blade
Oh, it's "runners stealing Westwind" time again?
This whole discussion is pretty pointless. I admit that it's important to have an answer to the question "why do we run instead of stealing Westwinds?" for your group, but it's pointless to try to get people with different playstyles to agree on one answer.

One the top of my head, here are answers that could be valid in different games:
- "Because Shadowrunning pays more."
- "Because Shadowrunning will eventually lead to run payed more."
- "Because you only run the Shadows once every three months while you need to steal Westwind every x days."
- "Because the car-stealing racket is held by the [insert group name]. If you steal a Westwind for them you'll only get a small share and if you try to do without them you won't live long."
- "Because you won't stick it to the man by stealing his car."
- "Because it's so difficult/expensive to 'clean' a stolen car that it just isn't worth it."
- "Because there aren't any Westwind here!"
- "Because Lofwyr has one... and you don't want to be the one who stole it."
CeeJay
QUOTE (hermit @ May 11 2010, 02:01 PM) *
Stealing a Westwind a day is conceivable...

Well, first of all, you have to actually find that many high-value cars. It's not that Ferraris or Porsches are all over the town in 2010, so I'm quite sure, that Westwinds and the like are quite rare in 2070. After all, such cars are bought as status symbols, so where is the point when everybody owes one... And by the way, people who can afford to pay 100 k nuyen.gif for a car don't park that car at the street, which brings me to the second point:
QUOTE (hermit @ May 11 2010, 02:01 PM) *
You still make 3K a day, which, in 30 days, means 90K per month for a low-risk job.

Stealing high value cars from their high-lifestyle owners is not a low-risk job in my book. Such people tend to watch after their property and they usually can afford top-notch security.

-CJ
hermit
QUOTE
- "Because Shadowrunning pays more."
- "Because Shadowrunning will eventually lead to run payed more."
- "Because you only run the Shadows once every three months while you need to steal Westwind every x days."
- "Because the car-stealing racket is held by the [insert group name]. If you steal a Westwind for them you'll only get a small share and if you try to do without them you won't live long."
- "Because you won't stick it to the man by stealing his car."
- "Because it's so difficult/expensive to 'clean' a stolen car that it just isn't worth it."
- "Because there aren't any Westwind here!"
- "Because Lofwyr has one... and you don't want to be the one who stole it."

- No, it just doesn't.
- Like when you're dead?
- I already factored that into my calculation.
- LOL. Yeah. Better stick it to the man by doing his dirty work. You're so radical (and actually, lighting the man's car on fire is a staple in leftist moron circles these days).
- Nope, see fencing rules
- Take cheaper family ccars, sell more of them.
- Because ... he needs an expensive car. Right.

None of these points make much sense, sorry. There certainly are workarounds - making runs pay a lot more, and raising equipment costs for augmentations and matrixware, adding in matrixware up to level 12 (as well as corp nodes up to level 12, of course) ... but all those require significant houseruling.

However, you can also get by jacking shops, robbing peoples' bank accounts, or stealing whatever else (other cars, for instance. Also, unlike what many believe, the amount of expensive cars - absolute and relative - rises with growing social divides.

But you needn't limit yourself to Westwinds. You have a high-end hacking package, and unless your group plays by optional rules, you need no skill at all for most of the hacking either! YYou can just walk in anywhere and take anything you like! Why risk your hide trying to break into a high security environemnt when you can just pluck ripe fruits in the mall daily? It's not like their pesky security has anything on your and your uberlink for roughly 15K. One run, is all you ever need.

With the not really thought out changes in payment for runs, low max levels of everything that is not a 'mancer, and equipment cost, SR4 killed any reason to be a runner. Unless you happen to be a technomancer, maybe.
fistandantilus4.0
The topic of this thread is the Shadowrun article and art in Game Trade Magazine, not stealing cars - vs - shadowruns.
Take the topic elsewhere please.
Blade
[Edited after mod post]
ravensmuse
Couple of quick hits -

@ The cover of the article: Soooo, how much did it cost you guys to get Angelina Jolie to pose for you?

On a more serious note, use that cover for if / when you do an update to Shadowbeat, and make it clear that that's the media's interpretation of shadowrunners. Because that's the kind of picture they'd use. I can just see the photographer and the makeup artists and everyone busying themselves around her, Devil Wears Prada style.

@ AH - As always, interesting thoughts.

@ Bull - Everytime you write Andrew in regards to DDH, I always think to myself, "no I didn't! I never volunteered for anything other than writing!"

And on that note, I'm praying people enjoy what I did for DDH. Hoping it comes out this month.

@ the German Arsenal cover - Uh, I'll take that over the crap cover we got for Augmentation. Seriously, that is ten times more appropriate that Uruk-Hai put cyber-arm on female elf Neo. Sorry poser artist!

@ the noir vs. not-noir vs. cyberpunk vs. transhumanism - I'm a transhumanist myself - you can see that by the constant linking to Dresden Codak I have in my sig - and I don't think cyberpunk certainly fits as the descriptor of Shadowrun by this day and age. But things have changed; the game has become an entirely different thing within the twenty plus years it's been around. We've moved from "technology bad! Japan's gonna take us over!" to, "technology is fun and helps us connect to people while shutting us off from the people around us! Oh crap, China's flooding us with lead toys!".

I still say that Ghost in the Shell is one of the biggest influences on Shadowrun, and it presents a "bright", technologically forward culture with plenty of room for shadows - especially the Stand Alone Complex series.

Myself, I look at SR as a combination of Gone in Sixty Seconds, Ghost in the Shell, and Burn Notice, but that's me.

@ Sorceror and Savant - my favorite joke in regards to that: Three Circles, two nipples, and a camel toe.

@ Uh, there was something else here that I'll remember in the post-edit. Whee!
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