- As pointed out, getting that sprite army in three days should have been impossible in the first place
- Limit the number of sprites which can boost a CF, or apply a threshold how far the boost can go
- Use the optional rule that having multiple high-powered sprites/spirits at hand incurs a dice pool penalty (see the section on registering sprites n the BBB)
- Excessive display of power should always have roleplaying consequences. If a player had walzed into that facility with a F20 blood spirit or dual-wielding Thunderstruck gauss cannons you'd bring down the heat on them, same should happen in the matrix.

That is okay though, the other ones make that statement, so it is all good...

Keep the Faith

by 'tweaker' i thought he was implying drugs, which iirc have no such explicit statement.

though of course, it would still be explicitly limited to 4 IPs at best (personally, i would rule that the omission of the explicit limitation in both cases was not meant to allow them to stack, but that would of course be a house rule)

True... I see it that since most things explicitely tell you one way or the other, you will be attempting to combine with on eof them... at which point the explicit statement is already there...

As for Drugs... Up in the Air as you say... can you combine Drugs for better effect? Up to each individual GM I would think... Though I kind of like the idea that the Drugs can redline your body, much like you can redline a Cyberlimb... makes for some interesting situations in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

Wow, a half hour of reading and what I've discovered is that just like SR3 too many nerds had their hands on the rudder when designing this version Hacker/Decker/TM/Crap that slows the game down too much. I'm glad that pretty much none of my players enjoy playing one of these archetypes, and we just use some handwavium to deal with it. (NPC's, etc...)

Funny You say that... Our group uses the Hacker/Decker/Technomancer Crap (as you put it) and have had absolutely no problems with it at all...

Keep the Faith

Each to their own. I've yet to come across a group locally that has done what you've done. Hell I know several beta test groups for SR4 who out and out hate the TM's. I'm not saying people should stop using them, or that they're completely wrong. I would say that it's clearly evident there's a problem with them for a lot of people.

Yeah... No worries... and for what it is worth, I agree that a technomancer can get stupid powerful with time and karma... but then, so can anyone else as well...

In my experience, you have to trust the GM, and, really, the GM needs to trust the Player... if either one goes the "prick" route, then the balance goes down the drain...

Keep the Faith

Yeah, I find the SR4 hacking fast and fun.

Indeed... SO much better than the Old Decking Rules from SR2/3...

Keep the Faith

1 is more than zero, but still not a ten in my book. I've noticed, and mentioned this before, a lot of the people who seem to champion TM's and Deckers are people who work in computers, or have computer hobbies. (This isn't to say all of them are that way, or that it's wrong. Just an observation based on my admittedly limited experiences.)

But in the Digital World, there are ONLY 1's and 0's...

Interestingly enough, I have found that those people that are actually in the industry tend to despise the Matrix Rules for SR4A. Not all of them, mind you, but enough that they seem to outweigh those of us in the industry who enjoy the system...

In the end, yes, the system has a few flaws when compared to real life... But that is okay; if you can get past the Real World issues, the system is actually pretty good, and is a joy to play, at least in my opinion anyways...

Keep the Faith

Yeah, you'd think actual IT people *wouldn't* like it. In my game, we play it more like Hardison on Leverage: hack whatever, wherever, because it makes sense for the *narrative* and is fun. That's all that matters.

Indeed...

Keep the Faith

Honestly it's not suspension of disbelief that's my problem with the Matrix in SR. I mean it is a roleplaying game right? If I can pretend to be an elf, or a troll then yeah a decker's not a far stretch. No, all of my issues revolve around the crunchy stuff, which in the end comes down to personal taste.

For my players, in my group-and generally speaking with three notable exceptions everyone I've personally gamed with "Deckers", or however we want to refer to them, slow the flow of the game down. I've played Shadowrun since it's introduction in 1989, so it's not that I don't get the rules (I'm sure there are some, like anyone else, that i could tighten up on. Others I could loosen up on.), and it's certainly not that I don't get the game (I've run almost weekly games for 21 years now) it's just that I don't like how TM's or deckers fit into the game. I get their role. I get why they are there.

I just don't like them. I've never seen anyone, even the people who like them, pull it off in a way I like. So in the end it's a personal preference issue, which is to say my experiences certainly don't invalidate your own. They're just different is all.

I'm hoping in the far future when SR5 hits the shelves it'll be better.

Personal Taste goes a long way to flavoring the world... No Doubt...

No worries...

Keep the Faith

To be fair, they really did try to address that in SR4 via Augmented Reality. But I agree overall; the rules really are just plain awful. They're inconsistent with the rest of the game, they're needlessly overcomplicated, and too fixated on being 'realistic' as opposed to the abstraction the rest of the system relies on. Even astral projection tends to be faster and easier to work into a game without slowing everyone else down, and that's what full-on VR interfaces should be akin to. But as it stands, it's all a giant pain in the ass. Which makes me a very sad panda, because I love the idea of hackers and riggers to death.

yeah... The Idea of Hackers/The Matrix/Augmented Reality is totally Awesome... I Agree that the rules could be cleaned up a bit, but overall, I like them...

I have been known to be a bit wierd on occassion, though, so that may not really mean much in the long run...

Keep the Faith

I really dig the SR4 matrix rules compared to SR1 or 2 (I sat SR3 out)

My game is so dependent on AR/VR that I don't know how the game would run without those rules. I dig the flavor and while the mechanics are a little funny, it is nothing that hurts the game.

Ah well.

My GM has me making fewer tests then he could be for simplicities sake, which, when there's only one hacker/TM/rigger, is a good thing.

My GM has a tendency to only ask a person to roll for hacking if he is doing something tricking or trying to do something significant. One of my favorite moments is when my friend wanted to hack a resturant we were in and he wanted to roll to see if he could and my GM replied "your basically tring to hack an applebees you don't have to roll you pass"

It always seems to me that people want to make the matrix rules harder than what they are. Sometimes they are poorly written, that is true. It just seems that some people just want to add complexity to the matrix where none is needed.

I feel 4th edition does the Matrix better than it has been done. Still is not near perfect though, but decent enough? Yeah, IMO...

Matrix rules are complex, yeah, but not so complex that, once everyone is familiar with them, they can't be used quickly and efficiently. The real problem is reaching that level of familiarity.

Ok this is how I've worked out upping a technomancer's dice pool

6 Rating Exploit CF
6 Rating Sprite boosting the CF with its rating
6 Thread (sustained by another sprite, if possible)
2 Hot sim
6 Rating Cheat Widget
7 Hacking skill (Aptitude quality)
2 Exploit spec
3 Neocortical Nanites
3 Probability Distribution (altering the effectiveness of the hacking Matrix action)
2 Codeslinger

Grand total dice pool: 43 dice

I also considered other augmentation, like Encephalon and PuSHeD, but this dice pool here is completely without a lowered Resonance.

- Getting that sprite army isn't impossible. I'm assuming they were high rating (let's say 5 each). That's only 5 hours each of meditation to register each of them. If he was going for his maximum number of registered sprites (7 based on Charisma), than he would easily register that many sprites in 35 hours. That's only a day and a half, leaving plenty of time for rest inbetween compiling/registering to negate fatigue modifiers and any stun damage incurred from fading.
- From what I can tell from reading this over, he did limit the number of sprites boosting the CF to only one. Unless I misunderstood the post made about the dice pool breakdown, it appeared only one rating 6 sprite was boosting the CF by its rating.
- The optional rule is a good and bad idea. It's good because it takes care of the issue presented in this very thread. It's bad, however, because you're basically penalizing someone for having a high Charisma so they CAN have that many sprites. That seems a bit ridiculous when someone decides to build a sprite-heavy TM and then, whoop, there goes the build he was going for.
- As for the excessive display of force, a TM could very easily force his way into a system and never be noticed, if he's improving his Stealth CF in a similar manner as his Exploit. I agree that excessive displays of force should be punished, but if the character is never noticed, than there's really nothing that can be done.

All this being said, there's nothing to say that those sprites the TM is toting around won't get noticed, that another TM is watching over the system your player is hacking, or that you simply jam his ass out of wireless communication.

Bam! Problem subverted long enough for the GM to keep the player-TM busy and distracted so he can't go traipsing through any system he/she wants.

I admit that TMs are somewhat broken. A hacker vs a TM is essentially a mundane security guard vs a magician. A magician that had time to put up his armor, invisibility, and other buff spells. It's a pretty open and shut case of who wins. Paper beats rock, right.

I guess the annoyance I sometimes have with TM is there is no good "scissors" to the TM. Against mages you can throw drones, and though they can still do some heavy damage to drones, it's inherently harder and they are more limited in their spell selection. Or with mages you can always throw another mage at them. With TMs, the only real option is to use a counter TM, and sometimes your plot just doesn't justify one.

I can deal with crazy dice pools countered with plot... usually.

Then make a plot where a mega, terrified of TMs, as the threat they present is near impossible to counter, manages to create Resonance bombs from studying digitally-dissected sprites and they design nodes using Dissonant code structures which sap away at a TM. There's always plot. But, do remember that, while they may be the new gods of the matrix, in real life they are terribly squishy and highly sought-after.

Dont forget that some Technos are very arrogant and forget to remove their grubby little resonance imprints off things. All it will take is one Corp Techno (and their only has to be a couple of them in a city) who deals with questionable hacks comes into the node scans it for resonance signatures and BAM that corp is going to be on the team looking for that Techno straight away.

Hackers are a dime a dozen Technos are special and special is always hunted. Nothing says team paranoia more then one of the team having a 50k bounty on them

What's the old statistic? There is one out of a million individuals that is magically awakened and TMs are even rarer than THAT. Yeah, letting the TM have his fun may be frustrating at first, but the aftermath of it, no matter HOW Stealth-y the TM was, will be found out by other TMs. And then it's just a matter of time til that corp team starts busting down doors...

That's why I was suggesting using other TMs as counters to the party TM. If those NPC TMs just happen to be working for a mega...well...

One in a hundred (1%) of the population is Awakened. Approx. 1 in 10000 is ( .01 %) are Emergent...

Ah, my mistake. Still, the point is still valid

To orders of magnitude less of an extent, yes, still valid.

so wait... you can't figure out what is better than a technomancer?

it's quite simple. as was pointed out earlier, you don't try to challenge the technomancer in the matrix. you challenge the technomancer outside of the matrix. put the technomancer into a social situation. create situations where the technomancer has to physically get into the building just like everyone else.

you don't challenge the technomancer in their strengths. you challenge them in their weaknesses.

Failing a kill attempt in the meat world I'm all for a toxic (or is it corrupted?) Techno causing them problems.

Why should a TM, who supposedly got a large Charisma attribute for his job should be at a loss in a social situation. I expect them to shine in social situation, or at very last be much more at ease than the standard rigger or chromed...

If the TM should have any skills spent not on matrix things I guess they will go in Social Group skills...

Or just ban them as PC for rarity and balance issues.

Each to their own but I would try to incorporate a players wishes when it comes to concept into my game when I GM. Otherwise its not really their concept and they may not be inclined to play the GM's game at all.


It seems pretty unfair to remove one of the concept types from the main book wholesale. Now some of the stranger stuff from RC I can understand but from the core book just sounds wrong to me

It saves you lots of arguing and time spent on house rules to rein the mancer in. Also, I have to keep not just one player's wishes in mind but others' as well. If the mancerreduces the hacker/face nil (or to being a face), then that isn't what that player wanted, is it? If the mancer routinely is awesome and gets things done because I want to keep the game at a level where other group members have a fitting challenge too, then that frustrartes. If the mancer gets their special challenges, either I rape the game world to make things the way the mancer needs them, or fuck the other characters over because I send them against stuff that far outranks them just so I can have the mancer go against military-grade systems (which, in my book, are guarded by military-grade guards, not rent-a-cops with a sectech jacket, a used PRed 3 and 1 mag of ammo). The second pisses off the other players, the first pisse4s off me. And as a GM, I am not doing this only to please others.

Thus, the mancer ban. Tough luck if your only fulfillment is playing one, but I prefer tzhat to everyone else feeling fucked over just so the mancer player gets their mancer.

Of course, if the player comes up with reasonable house rules, it could always be test played.

I wonder how you handle any other concept types which can be good in their arena or if you have to resort to house rules on everything. All concepts have their ability to be way above everyone else in one arena not just Techno. I guess it all comes down to play style in the end and who you game with. My group is pretty strong in some areas and tries not to tread on each others toes we all so try to balance out who gets the limelight as it were and if someone due to no fault in their own isn't getting any time out front a session might drift more into their bailiwick to give them time to shine. But maybe that's just me and my friends

None (with the possible exception of the Infected, which I also ban) are so all brakes pulled over the top as the Techno is. He is like a mage who always has his spells active, only needs to worry about drain occasionally, gets spirits who can do everything and is just unstoppable by anything, since magic cannot be used against him, given his reliance on VR.

And please spare me the 'but he has to come in too' sermon, because that's nonsense in all but special conditions. And even if I would design my runs around that idea, it'd be at "I warp the world so the Techno is served", which just doesn'T sit right with me.

hermit just has a very "unique" and strange impression of technomancers. Like they are the most powerful, over-the-top class in the game, that makes every other character redundant and can archive anything on there own, even at 0karma.

Obviously that is not the case, but pointing this out to hermit is impossible. He wants to hate technomancers and will not listen to any reason at all.

cya
Tycho

Whilst I may disagree with your position if you and your group are happy nothing else matters.

I would find it interesting to see you play in a game (as a PC not a GM) which has a Techno PC who is not being potrayed as a god in the machine, just to see if it changes your opinion of them if played differently then you currently envisage.

A TM that is gonna be gimped purposely? Because, using their skills and sprites correctly, they just *are*.

Also, if it comes to pass I may actually play ina game with a sort of mancer - a game where everyone plays cats. So far, we have a Bastet, a Blackberry Cat (me), and a cyber brain implanted into a Kitteh 2.0 drone. Maybe another Kitty drone possessed by the eGhost of a brit Nobleperson will join, but that's still out. But that's not exactly the normal kind of game, and the BC is overpowered too.

If you build a TM with karma, they generally end up with a reasonable collection of mental stats (~4-5 on average) and a bunch of CFs at around 3. Then, all you have to do is double the drain on compiling Sprites above Resonance and hes starting on the same sort of level as a mundane hacker (at least in my games where hackers get a teamwork bonus from their Logic stat.) Then, just like the mundane vs. magic combatant, the mundane guy gobbles up cash but starts to branch out with karma, and the magic/mancer just keeps plugging away at karma growth until he is ridiculous.

I said it in another topic, and I will say it here... The Technomancer is not the God of the Machine... In no way, shape, or form. Can they be powerful? Yes! Are they invincible? No, not hardly. There are many times that my Hacker far outshines the Technomancer in our group in game, and then there are times where the Technomancer has his moments... all in all, I would say we are on par, and that is with a Technomancer who has a Resonance of 7 and 5 Grades of Submersion... The Hacker tends to step all over him in the Electronic warfare realms, while he is tops in Exploit and Spoof. All in all, we generally penetrate a system within a pass of each other, with the Hacker on top about 50% of the time due to better Decryption rolls.

The world is what you make of it...

Keep the Faith

Where are these dice coming from? Probability Distribution?

So wait, you've basically maxed out what a hacker can do maybe you can get another 2 dice somewhere and you still come up short of a out of the box plain jane technomancer. Yeah no problem there at all.

For the OP I'd suggest that you use the optional rule that your dice pools cap at 20 and this wont be as bad.

I don't want to derail the thread back to Emotitoy discussion but I do want to put out there how we deal with it. Empathy Software as our group understands it, is software that looks for specific details in visual, audio, and other information to help someone decide how that person is feeling and can make suggestions at what you could do to make the situation go better. This can be done completely discretely, as the drone just has to be able to see whats going on and can give its advice via your AR.

How we deal with it is like this.

As a drone, it has a default sensor, and like us, we need to be able to read discrete movements and such to gauge someones body language or listen for the right things for verbal hints. So we have the Drone roll Perception to see exactly how much it can detect, and then the Empathy Software can do its thing, and can grant social modifiers based on net hits up to its rating. So its highly unlikely an Emotitoy in our runs would manage the full 6 bonus unless the opponent was being very obvious.

And you can better your odds by sticking some Clearsight programming on the Emotitoy drone and rigging its sensors to higher ratings.

Anyway, that is how we balance it out.

It has to be as the emotitoy specifically says that it can't be used in a blatant manner if you want the bonus

WHAT, where does emotitoy say anythink about a you getting a bonus.