Indeed, but we sure do have a hard time convincing OUR technomancer of this... He is almost afraid of his own shadow... which is pretty funny in and of itself... It does not help, though, that he keeps getting jacked up pretty severly whenever he goes on runs physically...

Keep the Faith

That would make one nervous.
For me, it does partially come form knowing that if I did try and go VR someone away from my group that wasn't incredibly secure, something would happen to me. And it helped that our first run was out in the Seattle Barrens where there was no Matrix.

I'm not sure what the #6 sprite bonus is, but TMs aren't my forte, can sprites give a direct bonus like that? I do know however that getting 6 hits on the threading test is not easy (and we'll not talk about the 6P fading that would generate). Also don't forget about the 8S fading on average generated from registering a rating 6 sprite. And what kind of DP does the TM have for registering sprites? 4 skill tops + 6 resonance tops + spec on a single kind of sprite. That is 12 dice vs 12 dice, which is something like a 33% chance of success after 6 hours of work (since you have to beat the sprite). It sounds like you're skipping some really important parts of the rules and that is part of what is making this TM so powerful.

Also, if you look at that list, that is only about a half dozen more dice than a good hacker can manage, and doesn't require dragging along sprites or burning up tasks or risking drain.

Indeed, Not saying that he does not have cause for his paranoia...

Keep the Faith

Best I can See with Rating 6 Programs:

Program 6
Skill 6 (could go as high as 9)
Skill Specialization 2
Hot 2

Looks like a total of: 16 (19)
If you allow Programs up to 12, well then you get an additional 6 Dice for a possible 22 (25) DP... which is still more than half a dozen less dice (-12 (-9) from the Technomancer)

What else am I missing here...

Keep the Faith

6 Program
7 Skill (aptitude)
2 Spec
2 codeslinger
2 Hot VR
1 PuSHeD
3 Neocortical Nanites
2 Encephalon

Which is still only 25 which is 9 shy of what the TM pulled up. So I was slightly off when I said 'half a dozen' but not by too much. I feel like I'm forgetting something though, just pulled this off the top of my head. I suppose the other thing is that I'm somewhat used to running with Logic + Skill optional rule instead of the Skill + Program one, and generally get logic up to double digits, so used to having an extra 3-4 dice from that, which would put me solidly at 'half a dozen less than the TM'.

Edit: and then if you wanted to do programs up to rating 12, then you're looking at only 3 dice shy.

ou're not understanding threshold.

Hacking a security account increases threshold by 3. Hacking an admin account increases threshold by 6. p225 SR4A. Hacking an account for yourself is Hacking + Exploit (target’s Firewall, Complex Action). So, hacking an admin account on a Firewall 6 system requires you to get 36 successes on an extended test. (Normal threshold is 1, admin is +6 so threshold of 7, you need to get 6 successes and each success requires 7 hits, plus one net hit because tie goes to the defender for 7+7+7+7+7+7+1=36 succcesses).

Now, anything that's looking for you gets to roll to beat your stealth and it's making an extended test. Even this uber hacker probably just spent 3-4 IP's hacking an admin account -- he hasn't even started to do a Matrix search on the node or issue commands or try to redirect a trace or wipe any record of his activity or anything else. And that's only a Firewall 6 system that only cost 3,500 nuyen. A big business will likely have a higher Firewall rating like that.

Additionally, it requires 6 uninterrupted hours to reregister a sprite and the technomancer will probably be taking stun damage to do it, which just gives more penalties (and more stun damage on the next sprite). A good run will burn up two to three rating 6 sprites at that pace. However, if the technomancer is still making the GM bend over and squeel, just make sets of registered sprites carry their own penalty.

Also, no more than one sprite can assist on a complex form, in my opinion. In the DoS attack section in Street Magic, sprites aren't allowed to do Teamwork tests -- just +1 dice for each sprite or agent. They can only boost a complex form by their rating, they're not allowed to help a technomancer out on other tests unless it's one of their actual tasks and they're using the task rules for it.

As far as hackers and technomancers, you do know that technomancers can do everything that hackers do, right? If a technomancer can't find the complex form he wants, there's nothing stopping him from going to Radio Shack and buying a program and using it in AR. He just won't get his normal technomancer boosts.

Now, emotitoys. The rules say that a character using them "discreetly" gets the bonuses. No, pikachu on your shoulder or strawberry shortcake dancing around your head in the air or magic muffins or whatever, those look stupid and don't give you any sort of bonus. Run it on your comlink or in your headspace or wherever and as far as a Johnson can see, you're just chatting with a partner or taking notes or whatever. Also, if they're cheap enough that runners are all using them, then Johnson's should (and will) all be using them too.

Wait, what? An Extended Test of 1+6=7. 7 hits (ah ah ah). 36 is a beyond-extreme difficulty task.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding it here. The Threshold is seven hits, not seven successful tests with at least seven hits. Just seven hits.

The list is pretty complete. A plain jane hacker will often have a higher edge than a TM, due to BP shortages, so there's that. Having Agents help Probe a target give you extra dice(Mass Attacks, unwired 101, though sprites can do this too). Hackers can also benefit from hardware mods, like Optimization, which is basically half a codeslinger. An adept is able to throw some more dice on there, mystic adepts more with analyze device. Hackers also have a few situational benefits on their side - they can boost their matrix perception with reception enhancers, decryption with math spus, and initiative with response enhancers.

...and i'm done. I think that about covers it.

I would sayu that your not understanding anythink, the threshold is only 7 hits, not some wierd 6 tests with 7 hits per test + 1.
Oh and you fail at math forever too, that would be 43 not 36.
Also the TM cant just go and buy a normal program, unless he's willing to buy all matrix skills twice.TM:s matrix skills cant be used to do normal hacking.

Yes, TM's matrix skills can be used to do normal hacking, they just cannot be taught to normal hackers. Unless this changed for SR4A, that is.

Skillsofts can be emulated as a CF, however this CF cannot be improved by threading.


...which does not allow you to assign more IPs to physical actions than you'd normally have in the meat world. Seriously, am I missing a linguistic subtility here or why are so many people misinterpreting Mesh Reality? To me it sounds as simple as it gets, you can split your matrix IPs between matrix and meat actions, but not assign more IPs to real world actions than you normally have IRL.

AFB right now, but I'm pretty sure Matrix perception tests aren't extended. Unless this is referring to the Analyse extended test the system gets for the hack-on-the-fly attempt, but in that case the system rolls alongside the intruder so TMs and hackers have no advantage over each other here.



Programs max out at rating 6, making a rating 6 firewall 'cutting-edge'.



I'm intrigued to know what you mean by this.

Some Corporate secure facilities can have the vast resources assigned to have Firewall 7, or even 8...
But, those would be like hacking the Renraku HQ in NeoTokyo, or the Aztechnology corporate HQ...
The big, important places where they are going to drop large amounts of resources to protect...

Because the mancer is incapable of using a commlink? He could just buy a link, some malware, and pit a sprite or an Agent in there to have the same Software the hacker has.


Only if you do nnot know how to use them and/or chose bad Paragons and CF.


Indeed. That's a Rating 16 program.


If he has no ECCM CF, he is doing it wrong. Also, the Jammer would annoy the mancer no matter whether he's in via remote or close. I see no reason to drag him with you, unless you only break into WiFi-inhibited, non-landline-connected isolated oil rig labs in the Anatrctic or something.


Technos can use Skinlink. Technos can use trode nets.

They indeed can.


Not according to the books. Only highest-security stuff - NORAD, Zurich-Orbital and similar sites - have a 6+ firewall. It's about as common as a nuke-proof bunker.


While true for mages, it is untrue for Technos.


While not rooted in the rules for all I know, it is a very common house rule where I am from. Still makes it a house rule though.


Source?


As many as you could have in RL. Meaning no, no 5 RL IP with Mesh Reality even if you have that many in the Matrix. It DOES mean you get up to 4 of your Matrix IP in RL, though, regardless.

I think that you can only get as many IPs as you *have*, not *could have*, in meatspace. If your normal pass total is 1, Mesh Reality doesn't give you 4.

Unwired, page 145, Biowires Echo: "However, since technomancers are unable to process active
skillsoft programs, they have to convert them into complex form-like programs to interpret
and process them in their 'language' by emulation

Unwired, page 149, Emulation: "Technomancers with the Biowire echo can use threading to convert
skillsofts(in storage accessible to the technomancer) into complex forms their neuromuscular
system can process"

Thanks. But where does that rule out improving them by threading later?

Ah, found it, in the Errata: "p. 149 Emulation: Add the following sentence to the end of this section:
“Memorized Complex Forms emulating skillsofts are limited to the rating of the original skillsoft and cannot be improved either by  reading or Karma-expenditure.”"


The text can be interpreted either way, and Errata does not clear this um in any way.

Gut-check it: should a single Echo give me free Wires 3?

she cannot use more Initiative Passes on real-world actions than she usually would, based on her normal Initiative Passes
What are the normal IPs of a TM without Acceleration et. al?
a) 4
b) 1


If you use absurd interpretations of the RAW it's a small wonder the ressults are absurd...maybe next time you find a character concept overpowered (which seems to happen rather often...), check if the rules actually say what you think they say.


Yes, if you decided beforehand that the rules have to suck

Only thing missing that I can think of is an optimized commlink (Exploit) for a +1.

The way I read things, Mesh Reality is useful for being active in both the matrix and the meat-world at the same time. This also means that a persons physcial body could go faster than it normall would (higher init score), but it does not grant you extra meat-world IP. If it did, then "Acceleration" would be a useless echo; nevermind the fact that you can take it up to 3 times for 4 meat-world IP.

A TM can get more meat-world actions and become more of a combat monster, but Mesh Reality is not the key to that IMO. Mesh Reality is a way for the character with 4 meat-world IP and 5 Matrix IP to function in both atmospheres at the same time, using the IPs as needed each round.

The way I read it is this:

Total actions is the greater of Physical IP or Matrix IP. In the example we're using, it would be 5 for 5 Matrix IP. Each round, the TM gets 5 actions. However, they can only perform a number of physical up to their physical IP (in thic case 4). The remaining actions must be matrix.

So, if I have a TM with physical IP of 1 and Matrix IP of 5, they get 0 or 1 physical actions and they get 5-(physical actions) Matrix actions - in this case 5 or 4.

-M&P

Well, say VR instead of Matrix. AR is physical, of course.

Even with just one physical IP it is really useful, because VR no longer means you are drooling on your shirt in the broom closet. Probe a target while picking up a beer at the stuffer shack, bypass the security and still be able to watch your own back, hack a combat drone while taking cover from it...

Agreed. I used Matrix and Physical since that's what the "Official Character Record Sheet" calls them

I agree with its usefulness as you describe. I was commenting on the above discussion over whether Mesh Reality gave extra IP to meat-world or not.

Let's just not go there with mancers (gut-check: should an alternative hacker concept toally overpower the hacker in everything?). No, it certainly shouldn't. Yet the rules don't say it doesn't.


Hrm, yes, to become a sam-o-mancer he would also need some acceleration Echos.

No, a TM's matrix skills cannot be used to do normal hacking right from the start of SR4.

I'll see if I can find the quote, but I know I read that the TM's hacking skill is entirely different from a hackers, and so a TM can't use their hacking skill (or computer or anything else) with normal programs on a normal commlink.

Edit:


Guess I was wrong. It doesn't stipulate that technomancers can't use normal programs, but the fact that they can't teach them to anyone else seems to indicate that the skill would be useless when using a normal program. Otherwise it could be taught to non-technos, because a technomancer using a commlink is no different from anyone else using a commlink.

That was my understanding of it. Technomancer skills are only good with Complex Forms.

Actually... The Threshold for a Firewall 6 System when going for an Admin Account (+6 Threshold) is 12 Hits, not 7...

Keep the Faith

He could indeed do that, but he will be much worse than the Hacker at that point, as all of his abilities rely upon Resonance, he will not have the capabilities of the Hacker... splitting your Technomancer so that he can do both normal hacking and Resonance Hacking will ensure that he is only mediocre at both... Not a good idea in my opinion...



I do know how to optimize a Technomancer, and even optimized, for the first couple hundred Karma, the Hacker is generally better... However, they will eventually reach parity, and then the Technomancer will bypass the Hacker and never look back... In addition, the ability to call sprites is very powerful, but not as immediately useful as Agents; Hackers have no effective limit on the number of Agents, Worms, Etc, like the Technomancer has for Sprites... Yes, Sprites make a difference, but like Spirits, they are not an immediate "I Win" button for the Technomancer...



But is not obtainable at Character creation... and is not cheap either... and Programs do exist higher than 6, they are just hard to obtain...



Sometimes there are layered defenses, and multiple iterations of ECM will screw with a Technomancer, and I have yet to see a Technomancer able to obtain a signal underground (where even hackers have this problem)... And, the best systems are either protected by multiple layers of protection (many various kinds) or do not have wireless enabled at all... The Zero Zone we just hit was not only Deep Underground (Several Kilometers), but it was Wireless Disabled with No Landline... makes it pretty hard for the Technomancer to be very useful via remote at that point in my opinion...



Sure they can, but then they are then not using their greatest strength, as they now must rely upon technology instead of their Bio-Node...

I never said that they could not be powerful, or utilitarian, but it cannot be done cheaply in Karma... it will take a while for that to actually happen, and while he is waiting, the Hacker is Fairly Powerful right out of the box, as long as he has money...

Keep the Faith

No, it only stipulates their vastly superior ways of handling programs are incomprehensible to lesser creatures like hackers.


Unless there's an errata saying technos need to know normal hacking as a separate skill to use programs (how would they interface with anything if they could NOT access normal programs, anyway?) this remains a house rule. One that reins them in somewhat, but not RAW.


Oh, but they do. They are limited by Agents eating away at the node's functions. That is actually much stronger a limit than mancers, who can have up to eight level 5 sprites in a level 2 node, where the hacker's agents are extremely gimped.


Unlike raising a CF, and most GMs simply won't let you have higher-rating programs.


They still can use hardlinks via trode net, same as anyone else. And multiple iterations of ECM are blatant overkill unless you had to up every mom'n'pop's security measures to such a ridiculous level because otherwise your group mancer goes nuts everywhere, which would prove my point that mancers simply do not work in the game world as is without seriously throwing it off balance.


Technomancers still do not need to operate only in remote. However, a facility sitting in midst of lava in the earth's mantle would do well to have at least a good ventilation system or some other way of access. In any case, such an installation is serious overkill and only necessary as a challenge if something is off with regular challenges, like an iced, but generally accessed, system.


No. They access and hack with their bionode. They just choose to not use wireless but skinlink, which is a choice they can make any time.


I agree. If you only play one-shot characters, hackers are viable. Just don't expect to play them more than a few times. For development, it is either techno or nothing. The hacker is at the end of his development after a few runs anyway, when he has all the sensible implants, programs, and hardware.

Which, considering SR4 set out to make the hacker a viable character again, is purest irony. Playing an SR3 decker was far more rewarding.

Sure, with Charisma 8, thereby limiting chargen Resonance to 4, and 40 hours time to register those sprites. It's also not even close to granted that you will actually have those sprites after 40hrs, even with Registering 6 (which limits Software and Compiling to 4) you are just rolling 10 dice vs. the sprite's 10, so the chance to successfully register one even for a single service is significantly less than 50%. And successful or not, each registering session will cause 2x(10d6)P damage (sprite's hits on the registering test * 2, physical since the rating is higher than the TM's resonance), to be soaked with 12 dice (less if you didn't take a Charisma-linked stream).


A hacker on the other hand can just go to the local radio shack and pick up a few agents, or even get 90% off everything with cracked software.

And his agents are limited by the node they are in. Sprites are not. And even four level 4 sprites will be an unsurmountable enemy for all but the best hackers - and THAT is certainly within the frame of non-minmaxed starter mancers.

Besides, you can register sprites in downtime and keep them around. It's not like you have to always conjure them on the spot, you just MAY.

Sure, just handwave away a task with a high probability of failure and lethal wounds as "he did it in downtime" so you can continue to cry about overpowered characters...

Reread what i wrote (or what the thread is all about). We never discussed starting mancers entirely, that was you bringing that up. A reasonably developed mancer with immersion grade 2, some 100 karma, should be able to summon a level 6 sprite without frying themselves.

...



Summon sure, registering it will be stressful, and registering 8 becomes a major undertaking.

And, besides which, they can do the compiling and registering, and heal up during the down time, but, you know,
they still have to do the rolls, resist the Fading, etc. I mean, just because it is done in the down time does not
mean it is "free," afterall.

Technomancers, like Magicians, rely on the 6 Ps: Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Sengir, your maths is off (and why assume everyone is using BPgen?), your reading too, and you contribute nothing but trolling. Welcomeon the ignore list, troll.

If your arguments run out, just claim absolutes...


I don't jump on every TM thread shouting "the end is nigh!!!!!1111111" while displaying that my knowledge of the matrix rules is limited to the firm conviction that TMs suck...



DS has a killfile? Heck, why didn't anyone tell me before?

not to further an argument here, but in reading and participating in this thread, I assumed we were talking about chargen technos and what the can do after immersion. Certainly the first poster is talking about a chargen techno. Sure technomancers can become fairly powerful with echos described in Unwired, but this would be after significant karma spend.

It is clear that the technomancer does need some houserules to bring sprites more in line with spirits but I can't buy the notion that they're poorly written/poorly tested/shouldn't be allowed.

Thanks for the many replies I guess what I am really after is if I'm doing something wrong in managing the TM that I posted above. The stat numbers were legitimately how he is rolling his dice and what stats he is applying. Even with that dice pool above it seems excessive at 30+ dice for chargen session 3 TM.

Did I handle that wrong?

Or is the basis here that the CF cannot be augmented/modified at all over Resonance * 2? Seems the dice pool is still very high?

Talk to the player about house rules (Ryu's are very sensible; also the idea of trerating sprites like Spirits). Also, there are some limtations to the mancer you'll find in this thread you may want to bring down on him.

The builds are fine, despite the various discussions of exactly how high you can get, the fact is any of the builds, for any character type, with 400 BP can be constructed to make them have enormous dice pools for certain actions. 400 BP and the flexibility in your choices allow you to make lots of options, in this case one that is out of scale with the rest of the group and possibly your GM. However, even this isn't bad depending on how your group copes with it. There's no set line in how you spend your 400 BP to get any particular dice pool levels built into SR4. Having a TM out of scale with the team isn't as damaging as having the Troll damage sponge, which opens the team up to potentially horrible amounts of firepower.

Often for my campaigns I explicitly set effective dice pool targets. For a "street" campaign I might suggest a 12 dice cap at chargen, while for a world spanning corporate response team I might insist on a 16 to 20 dice pool for primary actions for characters.

i'm just curious... why would anyone assume that just because a technomancer has different computer/hacking skills than a normal hacker, the technomancer is completely incapable of issuing orders to an agent, worm, virus, etc? i mean, you don't tell the technomancer he can't control a drone because it isn't resonance based, why wouldn't a technomancer be able to issue orders to an agent? sure, the agent will be running off a separate commlink, but that isn't really any major limitation, it just means you need to buy a physical commlink to run your agent (or whatever) from.

That is a problem for the GN's though... By the canon of the game, they are out there...



If all you do is hit Mom & Pops, then your not really a shadowrunner are you?




Not sure where you got the Lava, But did you miss the mention of the ZERO ZONE... such systems are by their very nature deadly and often overkill, because they are protecting something worth multiple Billions if not Tens of Billions of Nuyen... which is exactly why they are Zero Zones...



If they are not Wireless, and choose to use the Skinlink Echo, well then, tehy have to be in contact with the target... which means they are present and not remote...



And I disagree here... I have played my Hacker for over 2 years (with 302 Karma), and he is NOT at the end of his development... and in fact is often much more effective than the 280 Karma Technomancer...

Just Sayin'



I also Disagree... I have had loads more fun playing my SR4A Hacker than I ever had playing an SR3 Decker... My Decker never got above 50 Karma, because I was just insanely bored with him.

To each his own I guess...

Keep the Faith

Here's a nasty thought.

The Acceleration Echo never says that it doesn't stack with other IP/Reaction enhancements.
Tweaker Technomancers are taking it out of the Trix!