First, that's not what "pink mohawk" refers to. Second, you really think that's what Syionide's character and campaign is going to be like? Or is the sole argument here "derr, well it COULD be that way in some obscure type of game! DERP!"

I actually appreciated all the comments on both sides of this argument. I gave a very general and vague theme for answers. I got back both sides of the game. The RP aspect and Number crunching. With both of these type of replies. I did get more then I had ever hoped for and I've learned more about this game which is exactly the bonus I was hoping for. So I really do appreciate the comments. Remember this game is for fun guys, not arguing. Let's not turn this into some burn thread about who is trying to interpret what I wanted. I am playing right now and I LOVE my char. I love the 12 dice I get for some of my spells, that is awesome.

So in the end, since I am the original poster. Don't I get to reward the points? And I'm saying that getting both sides of playing was very beneficial for me to learn more about this game.

Again thanks guys I do respect all your opinions and for taking the time to post them.

WIN!

Wow, I laughed for a good two minutes straight. Thanks, man. Awesome.

And you know what kind of game he's in?

In any case, you completely missed my point:

There are many ways to run a game, many many many. And not all of them require stealth or shooting. Case and point:

A friend of mine ran a game where all of the PCs were under the age of 16. None of them could drive,* own a gun, or cast magic. In fact the entire game took place on the matrix.

Talk about not needing stealth or shoot-people-in-the-face skills.

*Actually, one of them did own a car and could drive. But I don't think it came up.

Based on his original post, character concept, character build, and game status... yeah, I have a pretty good idea that it's not a pink mohawk game. Especially since he specifically asked for help in making sure his character was well-rounded.


And we all know how unimportant stealth, defense, and perception is on the matrix. Oh wait...

When did I say it was a hacking game? All I said is that it took place on the matrix.



Well rounded includes knowing what you can forgo because the rest of the team can pick up the slack.

It's called "having a friend to lean on."

Once again:

Not every character needs to have all of those aspects you outlined. My Drake adept could not ever cover all the bases, not with 95 BP tied up being an Elf Drake, another 10 on being a mystic adept.

Sure, I dropped 4 BP into Perception, but even with +2 spec, +3 equipment I don't nearly have enough of a dice pool to actually see the important stuff (2 Intuition --> 8 dice, some of the party gets 8 hits!)

If it's anything like yours, he's going to need a gun that holds at least one bullet and can be disassembled into seemingly common items like a lighter and a ballpoint pen.

Mesh

Oh, my bad. I didn't realize it was a tea party game where everyone sat on a legal, public node and just yakked casually. Thrilling! Exhilirating! SHAODWRUNNY!

Nevermind, also, that that's pretty much the definition of a nonstandard game, and not even a shadowrun whatsoever. We also have to continue to ignore the simple fact that Syionade wasn't asking about creating a character for some obscure, nonstandard type of game. But you continue going on and on with your goofy little examples of what a "fantastic roleplayer! <shazam!>" you are. I'll continue to just pat you on your little digital head as you do so.

PS Nice cufflinks, Dr. Funkenstein.

Wrong again, keep guessing.

Or you could, you know, be polite and ask.



At what point did I ever make the fallacy?

What I said was "I can't cover all the bases, so I cover the stuff I'm good at, pick a side skill or two, and get help from my friends." I also never said I was a good role player, I just said I was having fun (oh wait, I didn't say that either, but I am in any case)

But I guess you wouldn't understand that part, you know, not having any friends.

I guess you make all your own clothes and cook all your own food, too? Generate all your own electricity? Because, clearly, the only character that can survive is the one that can do everything. You must be the same way.

You assume I give a flying flip.


Every single post you've made in the last hour or so.


Oh, sorry, I didn't realize everyone else could stealth for him. Especially since he's the mage; one of the only types of characters that could do it courtesy of an Invisibility spell. Which he didn't have. Which is what you two twits are whining on about being so fucking tragic to recommend to him.

And you're right. I don't have any friends and all I do is SHOOT PEOPLE IN THE FACE, OMG! Because, you know, I recommended that the guy get some kind of STEALTH skill/spell/ability. You guys are ever so smart and insightful! Especially considering that in the various games I'm currently in online right now, I've yet to do anything of the sort. But we'll continue to ignore that. Shh!

False, because all of my posts have been: "there is more than one kind of game, not just yours."



Sure they can. That's why there are teamwork tests. Or getting the stealth monkey to slip the guards knockout drugs. Or having the hacker replace video footage...

If it was all about stealth and shooting people the game would have three kills:

How To Not Be Seen (free! 5 minute monty pyton training video!)
How To See Stuff (but not as well as Not Being Seen, or you'd Be Seen, negating the effect of the skill)
and
How To Kill People Good (when you're spotted anyway)



I've seen plenty of mages who can't stealth (one of which Acid Ball'd a crowd of 30+ people, including an ally, so he could kill 3 dudes).

If ShadowRun was all about being Ninjas, the game would because Narutard: The Hiding. Stealth does not solve all problems, it only avoids some of them.

You own it, Dr. Funkenstein, and I respect you for it. You have a style all your own.

Mesh

(Somewhere in the sprawl another kitten meets its end.)

Yep. Nothing there indicates shadowrunners (despite their very name) are into the whole clandenstine thing. Yessir. And nevermind yet. fucking. again. that Syionide specifically asked for help on making his character more well-rounded and appropriate for a first-time player. But please, please, continue with your bitching and whining about suggesting he take a spell like Invisibility. We must have undeniable proof of what a "fabulous roleplayer! <shazam!>" you are!!! Because, somehow, that proves it. Even though I have no bloody idea how.

Doubly so since, you know, he's playing the mage. Which, incidently, is the one character the other teammates would most likely rely on for that kind of help. But shh! Keep on with your obscure and ridiculous non-shadowrun game examples to prove why recommending Invisibility was such a horrible, mind-boggling, incomprehensible evil thing to do. I didn't mean to interrupt.

This probably illustrates Dr. Funkenstein's point better than his words ever could.

Point Illustration.

Mesh

Dr. Funkenstein clearly plays ShadowRun to win. The rest of us play to have fun.

Fun like playing a farm kid who gets beat up by a tree so he can feed one forest spirit to another so he can have a hedge around his cult's mana well.

And in the process uses a cat-turned-bear as a distraction that goes on a rampage downtown and it gets caught on national TV turning back into a cat.

He gets his hedge though. And it eats people.

Cool it everyone

Nailed it.

Well enjoy then, because ShadowRun isn't a game that can be won.

It is kind of like real life in that regard...

Keep the Faith

For srs!

I'll have to remember to not tell people to ignore advice that means changing their entire concept just so they can optimize their character to "win." (So cute how you didn't even look at the link, by the way.) And I'll definitely remember not to mention that anyone pick up a single spell or similar ability that is completely appropriate to their character when it doesn't ruin their concept or build, but simply makes them as versatile as they should be. Especially in regards to the rest of their team's expectations -- you konw, that thing you were crying about earlier.

Nailed it big time, buddy!

Does anyone else relize that youre grown men arguing about a roleplaying game? And not just, "lets have a debate about different oppinions" arguing. But "Im a grown man but Ill lower myself to the mind-set of an 8 year old to make a point no one cares about anyway" kind of argument.

Doc made a suggestion, you didnt agree. Grow up, get over it. Or go somewhere else. If I wanted to see mindless, ridiculas , tasteless arguments, Id pull for Frank Trollman to be let back on the forums.

Yeah, I can see how he's a filthy powergaming munchkin who must be completely evil. It's not that serious, different people have different styles of play, and the invisiblity spell isn't a stretch for a mind mage.

Well, I have to say that I am a fan of Style over Substance a lot of the time... sometimes you just need to make a statement, and your Style is really the only way to do so in my opinion...

given that... Style is obviously as Evil as you can get...

Keep the Faith

Yes it totally can be.

Visit the Funkenstein Shadowrun Gallery for total clarity.

Mesh

It is a game that you can SURVIVE, no doubt, but can you really ever truly WIN?

I don't think so...

Keep the Faith

Uhh, maybe if you get Lowfyr as a Loyalty 6 contact?

Oh I did.



QFT.

Servitude to a Greater Dragon (Because it sure ain't gonna be the other way around) does not strike me as Winning for the Player, at least not in my opinion; that is more on teh Survival scale to me, until the cahracter screws up and he gets hungry anyways...

Keep the Faith

Did you as a player have fun? If yes it's a win.

Did your character get something they wanted? Win. Did they survive? Win. Did they look good doing it? Big win.

I have fun when my characters have flaws and I play right into them. If I am "Just That Good" its not fun because there\'s nothing that makes me pause and go "Oh shi--"

Clearly Dr. Funk is the kind of guy who has fun when this happens all the time and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

(Dr. Funk is Scissors.)



NOW DO IT AGAIN!

Again, Winning implies an end to the Game... If the game is on-going, it is merely survival (though often with certain Perks, no doubt)... "Winning" and "Success" are two completely different things in my opinion...

Roleplaying is a lot more akin to real life existence... Survival is its own reward (along with the goodies that that implies), where death is an ending to the game... if the game does not end, then there is no way to actually "Win." For that you need a definitive ending...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

Nah, winning is about achieving a goal and being victorious. With what you're saying, you can't win anything since reality doesn't end the moment you finish. Be it a board game, a sport, a life goal, or anything else. You can't win until the universe ends. If the universe ends. And even then, you'll only win if there's nothing after that.

So why do you insist that every shadowrunner ever must be able to hold their own without help?

If they can, then there's no challenge for them. If there's no challenge, it isn't fun, and fun is the goal.

A definate ending would be the end of the campaign, so successfully completing it is a win. Or if your character gets "the big score" and is able to retire.

I don't think winning and success are that different, to win you have to succeed and even little victories are still victories.

I really don't see where you are getting that from. Dr. Funk never said anything to that effect. If anything he was giving advice on how to not be a hinderence to the team.

Nahh... Board Games End (Winner and a Loser)... Sports Competitions End (Winner and a Loser)... Life Goals are Accomplished (Not a Win, but a Success)... and well, if the Universe Ends, then everybody loses, don't you think? It is hard to win when there is nothing beyond (Your quote above)... I just see it as difficult to classify "Success" as "Winning", because LIFE is not a game, it just IS...

Now, you could argue that Success equals a Win... I don't think it does personally, but oftentimes many individuals equate them as the same thing... Obviously you do, and that is okay... just not the way that I tend to see things, that is all...

Keep the Faith

I never said that. You did.

What I said is that there's some basic skills every shadowrunner should have. Just like there's basic skills everyone who goes through basic training should have. Just like there's basic skills every chef should have. Just like there's basic skills every mage should have. etc. Shadowrunning is a profession in and of itself. Everyone else is just a specialist of that base profession. And being able to sneak around, even if just barely, is something every shadowrunner should know how to do. Especially if they're a "mind melter" mage who's concept includes the idea of "clouding men's minds."

Well, by definition rating 6 should preclude a one-sided relationship. At that point the NPC in question shouldn't just be willing to discard people. Anyway though, I have a simple house rule/guide line that I use for high end NPCs that has the handy effect of rendering a lot of the biggest players too expensive to have as beginning contacts: If you're buying someone at high loyalty AND they're the unquestioned master of their organization, then buying them means you're buying their entire organization (unless there's some reason they cannot ever publicly back you, but in that case you're not getting their full Connection rating either). And obviously, Saeder-Krupp is so stupidly huge and powerful that you'd effectively have to buy up some ridiculous hypothetical number of small S-K subgroups just to properly simulate it. The cost would rule guys like Lofwyr right out.

I know it sounds more complicated than merely saying "No" but really it's just making when/why I will say "No" public. Giving players a fairly accurate tool for guessing what contacts won't fly or may be too rich for their blood as they're sketching out their concept is a nice time saver.

Creepwood There's a difference between having flaws and being a hinderence to your team.

Sure, No doubt...

Does not really sound all that complicate, actually, and it makes a great deal of sense...

Keep the Faith

Personal attacks are against the TOS

The moderators will view it.

For what it's worth I tend to agree with Dr. Funk up to a point, stealth, perception, and some form of combat skills are something all shadowrunners will want to have eventually, if your getting by without ANY of them at all in my estimation your GM is not doing his job right and is not doing anything to challenge you or knock your character out of their comfort zone on occasion. That said you don't necissarily have to have all these skills right out of creation although if you get ambushed, shot, or stabbed and survive a time or two they will start to look really attractive, that and when you can't operate the computer system and have lost coms with the hacker or need to perform first aid on your passed out medic(this comes up a fair amount in my games) you'll strongly consider diversifying.

So yea I think it's falsehood to say that added such skills to your character is inherantly a munchkin or bad thing, as Doc F points out Shadowrunners live inherantly dangerous lives no matter what their aprticular speciality is.

Finally, yes I absolutely believe shadowrun is a game you can win, your characters can accomplish their goals, take their winnings and get out of the biz or accomplish some desired goal within the game world whether it be as simple as setting oneself up as the leader of the local syndicate or getting yourself onto the board of Ares. You win, you retire, and sometimes you even make a new character, that to me is winning Shadowrun, to do that you have to survive, anything you can do to increase yourself (and your teams) survival odds is a good thing.

For what it's worth I tend to agree with Dr. Funk up to a point, stealth, perception, and some form of combat skills are something all shadowrunners will want to have eventually, if your getting by without ANY of them at all in my estimation your GM is not doing his job right and is not doing anything to challenge you or knock your character out of their comfort zone on occasion. That said you don't necissarily have to have all these skills right out of creation although if you get ambushed, shot, or stabbed and survive a time or two they will start to look really attractive, that and when you can't operate the computer system and have lost coms with the hacker or need to perform first aid on your passed out medic(this comes up a fair amount in my games) you'll strongly consider diversifying.

So yea I think it's falsehood to say that added such skills to your character is inherantly a munchkin or bad thing, as Doc F points out Shadowrunners live inherantly dangerous lives no matter what their aprticular speciality is.

Finally, yes I absolutely believe shadowrun is a game you can win, your characters can accomplish their goals, take their winnings and get out of the biz or accomplish some desired goal within the game world whether it be as simple as setting oneself up as the leader of the local syndicate or getting yourself onto the board of Ares. You win, you retire, and sometimes you even make a new character, that to me is winning Shadowrun, to do that you have to survive, anything you can do to increase yourself (and your teams) survival odds is a good thing.

And yet, if you follow the "Godfather" line of reasoning, you can never truly leave the Shaodws, as they will just keep "Dragging you right back in." So do you ever really Win? Or, do you just succeed at your goals?

But yeah, play styles vary and your mileage may indeed vary based upon that premise...

Keep the Faith

I don't know I believe that if for whatever reason you desire to retire your character and he has enough nuyen to live comfortably for the rest of his life I chalk that up as a win. But you have to not want to play your character anymore otherwise nothng is ever over for him.