Do you have to see someone to target them? teh Mind Probe is a "SENSE", and as such, you need to "SEE" your target in order to probe their mind...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

I'm just saying that if people keep reading "probe" as "rape", and a corporation is actively doing this to its employee's, they will soon have no employees and the corporate courts will likely intervene to keep themselves from being tarred by the same brush of condoning the practice of routinely "raping" employees.

Indeed... Mind Probe is not subtle...

Keep the Faith

Not sure where you get this 'feel dirty' idea about it. The fact is I've been on runs where characters commit acts far worse then a mind probe to get the job done, and everyone celebrates it at the end of the day. Many runners are sociopaths who view anything outside their running group as targets, tools, or problems looking for a 'solution'. So long as you are careful not to get caught, there are no limits.

Besides, a sustained mind probe, along with a sustained physical mask, and extended masking pretty much wins any kind of infiltration you can think of, especially if you spoof the necessary RFID tags. Just rewrite the targets mind, so they think they went to work, and had a 'normal' day at work, and no one will be the wiser.

Ya, except if I was casting a spell like that in a bar, I'd likely have a holographic projector on the table showing the latest game, or some movie, etc, and use a line from a pair of mage sight goggles to look past it. Second 1% of the world is magically active, if you're LUCKY 1/10 of them can astrally perceive, of that 1/10 of 1 percent, how many of them are actively doing it at the time your casting?... so how are you getting all this astral over watch you love to invoke?

Except that casting a spell at a Force useful for the Mind Probe is ridiculously easy to notice... as has been mentioned... So easy, in fact, many individuals may well notice the casting, and those who are somehwat more observant than the norm (or other Shadowrunners) are almost guaranteed to notice... the threshold is not all that high afterall, even with minuses...

And lets not forget that Mind Probe requires a Touch to provide the given Sense (if the caster is providing the sense to someone other than himself)... and Mage sight goggles would not count as a touch for purposes of casting (and would net you a -2 to the casting roll anyways)... They might be useful to keep an eye on your selected victim, but then again, myomeric rope tends to be obvious when it is weaving and dancing, trying to obtain a LOS to your victim...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

I also DON'T agree with the reading of "probe = rape" however. I am saying that the idea that they are the same means the spell could never be used in any legal setting however. I'm unaware of any legal circumstances where rape is condoned.

except I'm doing it on what might as well be the other side of a wall, as the holo projection looks pretty solid to most people. So unless they can see through it using a fequency of light not employed by the projector, they won't see a thing.



No, the mage sight goggles would however allow you to see the person you are going to probe without being seen yourself. And its actually a 0 dice penalty because you'd be casting it on yourself, and using the googles to see the target long enough to affect them with the probe. Anyone looking to see you cast a spell has to do it through a rather realistic recreation of a world war X action movie. Myomeric rope is very inoccous when its up your sleeve to the lense is in your hand, and you reposition it by adjusting the angle of your wrist.

This is pretty much how I've been using the spell. Neither me nor my players even guessed that it could be used at range. 3 and 4 is a bit overkill though.

Holograms are obviously so... so looking through it should not impose much more than a -2 to your perception check... they are not impenetrable walls of light...

The restricted view from Mage sight goggles may or may not allow perception of your victim, depends upon how many people there are in the vicinity, (and regardless, you are going to look awful odd wearing mage sight goggles in even non-polite company... those things are huge)... a crowded room could impose a pretty severe penalty depending upon the numbers of the crowd, especially if you are moving it along the floor to, HOPEFULLY, avoid notice; or having it poke out surreptitiosly from your sleeve, that is for the most part not moving too much...

Keep the Faith

Peception test 2 to know they are holograms, and just because you know its fake does NOT mean you instantly know what is on the otherside of it. So YES it is like seeing through a wall.


and totally unnoticed by the crowd because there is a movie screen between your face and their faces. As such you could be wearing a neon green skull mask and no one could see it.


Ya, unless you have a beam splitter which takes part of the light and processes it so it can provide an overlay of the target for you.


say what?
I'm sitting in a corner of the bar which has a good view and the floor and doing this from behind a trid movie. I'm not sure where you're getting this snaking it along the floor thing. Hell I could just sit in the corner of the bar, and astrally perceive through the trid projection. As its nothing more then light, I could see through it fine on the astral.

Perhaps I'm just assuming that someone with access to important secrets and information would also have access to the nicer places, and would prefer them for the security. I don't think that's too big a leap. Obviously it wouldn't always be the case but would seem more likely then not.

And if the victim is in an area that is low security, how is the spell all that more game breaking then the team waiting outside in a van with disguises on, ready to kidnap and torture? Both have the potential to be seen, but steps can be taken with each to mitigate that. I can think of at several ways to nab someone off the sidewalk and not look terribly suspicious. The end result is basically the same, they force the info out. The only real difference here that I can see is that in the torture case the team can do whatever they like afterwords, and with the spell the victim runs off knowing they had their mind hacked. Why would witnesses for a kidnapping be an ok GM response, but witnesses for seeing a threshold 2 perception check on the spell be a GM screw-over? If the team uses the spell to try and by-pass the challenge you set up there's nothing wrong with using realistic fluff to add in complications to bring that challenge back.

I mean, realistically, what stops a team from the kidnapping route that doesn't stop the spell? There are no special built in mechanics for torture, but we don't seem to think that torture is a game breaker. In both cases it seems like purely fluff that creates the real reasons for not doing it.

I don't know, am I way out of line here?

No it isn't...



Again, No, there is no physical barrier between the observer and you, there is a hologram... where did you get the idea that it is opaque?



Again, not necessary at all, you can indeed see through a Hologram...



What?
If you are in a crowded bar (which was indeed the original premise for doing this quietly), there will be a lot of movement (at least all the bars I have ever been in, this is the case; and if it is not, you will not do this unnoticed anyways)... and as such, you will need to track the target... I can guarantee that you will NEVER be able to track the entire bar 100% accurately for 100% of the time... and since no LOS means NO Probing... you will constantly be frustrated... Astral Perception may indeed work, but again, since it is a sense, you will suffer the visibility modifiers for the large crowd in the area, along with potentially several other modifiers...

And since your Hologram is nothing but light, you can see through it anyways, even if it is a bit distracting...

Face it, it is not as easy as you are thinking it is... not to mention that the actual casting of the spell is STILL going to draw attention (Remember that reflexive Perception Roll for them to notice?), and since it is going to have to be at least Force 4 (if not 5) then the threshold is not all that high...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

You don't necessarily need to cast the spell at a high Force against most mundanes who will on average have an attribute of 3 WIL with which to resist. How many of these are likely to be hits? Maybe 1 on an average roll. Now keep in mind that this thread began because one of my players took this spell and that character has Spellcasting 5 and Magic 5. So our resident Street Mage decides to cast his Mind Probe at Force 4 using 10 dice and the target resists with their 3 WIL. The odds here are heavily stacked in favor of the Mage, so that unless the target miraculously scores a hit on all 3 of their resistance dice, the Mage is likely to get at least limited success.

Now for the easy to Perceive idea lets assume (easy assumption given the odds of 10 dice vs. 3) that the caster succeeds in their Mind Probe attempt. Now the target knows something isn't right, does the GM require a Composure roll or Surprise Test for the target? It would be justifiable given the nature of the spell, but lets not overcomplicate things and just say the target remains totally composed and unsurprised given the circumstances. Going with our average Mundane characteristics again we get a 3 Intuition and I'll even be generous and say the target has Perception 3 too. Now thats 6 dice to roll with 2 hits needed (6 - 4 for the spells Force = 2). That shouldn't be too difficult, right? But wait, almost forgot that the target is in the middle of a nightclub, so -2 Dice for interferring Sight/Odor/Sound and I'd would say another -2 for being distracted by the Mind Probe. So now the target has only 2 dice left to generate their 2 net hits to notice the caster. It could get even worse if the caster used a skill like, oh I don't know... Shadowing.... which the player has.

No, it is not ridiculously easy to notice unless the caster is out in the open with few people around.

Which means that you will need to cast it at least Force 4 (to compensate for the expected hiot) so that you actually get conscious knowledge... assuming that eh subject does not actually use Edge to add to his resistance, because he has a spell targeting him, and he may not actually want the spell to take effect...



Hoewver, you are forgetting to apply those same modifiers to the caster of the spell, so apply that -4 to him as well, and now, you will probably not get the requisite number of needed hits to actually do anything worth doing... What is good for the perception of the subject is also good for the Caster... and lets not forget that in a crowded room, he probably receives the +2 bonus to resist for the cover he has... and you willalso probably lose at least a die or two because you will be casting from cover as well, so=we are now almost even in the task (3 Will +2 Cover to Resist for 5 Dice; Caster has 10-2 Visibility/Distraction modifiers and -2 casting from cover for 6 Casting Dice)... Not such a sure thing now is it?

Oh, and don't forget that there is a +3 to perception for the Subject seeking the csting mage... so he is back to a minimum of 5 Dice, heaven forbid he may have a common Select Sound Filter 2 to remove some of the distractions (so now, what 7 Dice to perceive?)... and again, it is not so difficult anymore is it?

Again... I do not see Mind Probe as all that overpowering as written... there are many , many ways to overcome the spell, and even mundanes have a pretty goos chance at that point, let alone someone that is more competent......

Keep the Faith

Can you kidnap and torture the target in mere seconds and is the information they give sure to be the truth? No? Then it is not equal to Mind Probe.

You are forgetting that the caster has all the time in the world and doesn't need to rush. Also, the caster knows precisely who they are looking for, the target does not. Again, advantage easily goes to the caster.

And I would not give the target a +3 to their Perception unless they knew who or what they were looking for. Instead that +3 would go to the caster who does know who they are looking for.

Select Sound Filter? Remember, the target has mere seconds to try and locate the caster before the caster has what they need and is gone. They don't have time to whip out a Select Sound Filter. I was already generous in giving them Perception 3 and here you are giving them Select Sound Filter.

Because the nature of the witness needed to see someone kidnapped on the street is anyone or anything with eyes. The nature of a witness needed to see through a trid hologram, and observe a spell cast on the other side is one that does not use any of the frequencies of light standard to metahuman vision. So either ultra sound, which the runners should have sensors to detect, radar, which they should be able to detect again, or astral perception which only about 1/1000 people might even have, let alone be using at that exact moment, and somehow not be noticed by the astrally perceiving mage about to cast the spell.

To answer your question, its the difference between doing something where in theory anyone can see, and doing something where no one could see without actively giving away a signal.

Which is odd, as I was looking at the sr4a equipment section which I wrote that. So YES I am very sure it is.



You are correct, there is a hologram, which is described as REALISTIC and needed a perception test with a threshold of 2 to notice it isn't real. This implies it is opaque.

At which point its status as a hologram would be painfully obvious and no roll would be needed to see it. However as it is a threshold 2, that means most people will mistake it for real most of the time.


As it is not physically possible to see me with normal vision from the bar floor, I question how I would be seen.


I don't have to. I just have to do it once when he's in sight, and then it doesn't matter where he does, I still get to probe his skull.


Sustained spells do NOT require LOS to maintain. I really hate to break that to you, but once I've stopped I quit when I decide to quit. If he walks away, through a door, and gets on a jet to tokyo, I still get to probe.


Is there some part of that threshold 2 to notice is NOT real that seems to be slipping past you? If you could see through it, then the fact it is not real would be immediately apparent, with no roll required.



and since it seems to relate to visible effects like shamanic masks and the like, then no one is going to see it through the hologram. Ya it IS as easy as I think it is.

It has rarely been a problem spell for me. People tend to forget that magic is accounted for in any noteworthy security system, and mind probe is a spell that would be of particularly note to security experts. You don't have to know who's casting the spell on you. Standard protocol for any security system worth a darn would dictate that as soon as someone in possession of codes and passwords, upon realizing they've been compromised, would immediately call it in and security would immediately erase or scramble those passwords and permissions until the threat could be assessed and properly handled.

So even if you do come up with some cunning means of hiding your spellcasting, it's all for naught unless you're trying to break into some facility thats already going to be easy to break into courtesy of shoddy security.

Whats more, the act of using the spell in this fashion all but guarantees that you will be hunted and tracked down. Youll have to waste time trying to erase the signature from the person, assuming they stay around long enough for you to even try, which means either you're losing time on making your escape, giving your enemies more time to detect your working of magic, or leaving behind an easily tracked signature.

In the end, mind probe is just a tool. Use it like any other interrogation tool. Don't try to be coy with it because it's just going to work. If you capture someone, isolate them, and then use the spell to get the information you need? Sure, that will work. But trying to pry someone's mind in a bar? That's just a horrible idea!

Unless you have a joygirl slip them something to kill their willpower and awareness first. You'll get the spell off, yes. Get the information? Yes. Leave a force 5 astral signature? Most likely, unless you can also cast alter memory to do away with the memory of being probed AND erase the signature in time however it will likely come back to bite you in the ass. I just don't see the retribution happening at the speed many people here claim it would be occurring at.

So, the problem is not the end result, but the (perceived) difficulty level then? So why are you choosing not to use the provided fluff as a means to complicate matters if your major complaint is that there are less complications?

Here are some examples of realistic complications that could be put into Mord's scenario, and it IS a well thought out scenario he came up with:

* A waitress that keeps coming over to check on his drink.
* Someone in the crowd is into the "silent types" as goes to hit on him. Mages often have high CHA stats after all.
* A couple of frat boys start pointing and laughing at the dork-loser who's watching a trid at a bar (Been there, this is real. Try reading a newspaper in a corner of a trendy bar, you won't get hassled but people will notice since it deviates from the social norm. Listen for snickers and watch for people looking at you and wondering why you didn't do that at home.)
*The victim keeps looking at his watch. Now you've added a time factor. He has other things to do that night and could leave at any time.
*Looking on the astral reveals that someone in the crowd is there too. Doesn't HAVE to be another mage. Could be a person with the Astral Perception quality. Could be some human with the HMHVV I infection, a vampire out on the prowl. Runners and opponents (though you might consider them opposition now couldn't you...) aren't the only ones who can have those qualities. There are other options in this vein too. Maybe the person in question doesn't care about what the mage is doing, but he takes notice. He could pop up later with a "I know what you did." and wants something out of our mage.
*A small background count from moody drunks could make getting enough hits to get the info easily more difficult.

Some things after the victim knows he's been probed:
*The first thing the victim does after getting probed is use his comm to alert the people he's with and inform them he's been compromised and to assume a worst case scenario info leak. This might be passwords changed, plans rewritten, documents shredded, etc.
*Victim tells his group and they send a mage on the astral immediately (with astral movement that's just a few combat turns).
*The victim yells "MIND RAPE" and a panic ensues.
*Victim tells the bartender and the tender gathers SIN and pictures of everyone to give to a LEO.
*Victim tells and tender calls up a LEO and asks for someone to send over someone to check the astral ASAP. With astral movement rates that could be just a couple combat turns.
*Victim does something wildly unexpected. For instance, he's a member of the Yakuza that has info that could lead to the arrest and imprisonment of his Oyaban. His loyalty and honor might make him pull out a gun and shoot himself in the head the moment he knows he's been probed, right there in the bar, in an attempt to thwart you before you can get the info you need. An unusual response, but not beyond possibility. I'm not saying DO THAT, but something crazy and unpredictable might happen.

Now, if you don't want to do any of those things then yea, the spell is going to let the PC's breeze through it. But if they have to WORK for it, then no biggie yea? The point is to create a difficult situation for the players to overcome, but if they think they can RELIABLY use Mind Probe on a regular basis... I don't care how well you try to set up the situation, you won't nail it exactly right 100% of the time, or even half the time. No single idea or plan is a sure thing. Throw in a few speed bumps and they've worked for it just like they'd have to with torturing the info out. Just how I see it.

I think one of the biggest drawbacks to the spell is that it turns the victim into a very loose cannon, with the fuse already lit. They could, can, and in most games SHOULD, do everything in their power to mess up the runners now. Most times just having the info isn't enough, you need to be able to use it too. A password is no good if they know it's compromised, etc. Unless the end objective is to acquire this info and it doesn't matter if the holders know it's stolen, then the spell shouldn't be all that game breaking if you're willing to throw up a few speed bumps.

You can ALWAYS make 'em work for it, and that's the point right?

Thank You Tagz, you really nailed it... that was a much better post than mine was... I was a very tired 'runner last night, so mine was a little incoherent...

Keep the Faith

Rest of the runner team would be on the outside edges of the table and politely decline, saying they are up to some 'important' business and would rather not be disturbed, tip her 20 nuyen, and call it a day.

Again, person intercepted by someone else on the team, and dealt with that way.


So they can see a group of people watching a game or movie at their booth in the bar. And they start pointing and laughing? Who cares. They still can't see the mage because the hologram is in the way.

If you can see him, you can probe him. Not sure where the problem is coming here.


Notice someone actively astral perceiving? Wait for a gap in the persons coverage of the target and mage, then act. Failing that, re-evaluate plan, and act at some point in the future. Do a lot of digging on the astrally active individual however to work out who they are, and make damn sure to asense then to figure out what kind of threat they pose.


Concentration camps are background 3, and that took the deaths of tens of thousands in pain and misery. I'm just calling bullshit on this proposition from the get go.


This is why if your are doing this is a bar you look for names and faces, and not things so transient as codes.


Depending if this person has a mage or not. Maybe they only have indirect access to one. Does the hacker intercept or spoof the comlink to make him 'think' he's called for help? This is a factor, you have to erase the signature quickly, or drug the target to limit his awareness, willpower and ability to communicate. Plenty of chemicals which accomplish that task, and merely make the person look drunk.


See above, also depending on atmosphere of the club no one might hear him.

Hacker corrupts or alters data gained at the door. Victim is drugged as above. Bartender is a contact and screws with investigation, or evidence.


Is the victim important enough? Does the hacker intercept or jam the comlink?


the players should have done some leg work on the guy. if they just probe someone without looking into it to see they're balls to walls crazy loyal enough to do something that stupid, then ya, they deserve it. Also see drugging targets drink.


This is why my favorite use of the spell is to drug the target at his home while he sleeps, use a sustained version of this spell, and physical mask, while covered with a spirit using the aura altering power, or if you're good, extended masking, and go about your business. No one should see you as out of place, and you have access to all the targets memories, and knowledge about security procedures. So long as you can spoof any needed RFID tags (hacker or technomancer work here), you should be golden.

ps. sorry about breaking it up, but the server said I had too many blocks of text to do it all at once.

Good. Since you've adapted to the situation, thought on your feet, and came up with solutions you've earned the win on that. Doesn't seem game breaking to me in the least considering that it was more challenging then just sitting there and taking a little drain. That's my whole point, and I thank you for helping to make it.

The only things I would argue about your solutions is the background count and the holo-projection.

A background count of 1 isn't unreasonable, an area of regular emotional output can do it, or even the pollution level in an area (as I've seen in Ghost Cartels). I wasn't suggesting a crazy amount, just a modest change.

As for the holo projection, unless this projection is 360 degree-spherical then you should be using the positive cover modifiers as a negative visibility modifier. Good cover (by RAW > 50% obscured) would be -4 to a perception check made against you. Still should be getting a roll to possibly see you though it is a good way to reduce the chance of being seen, yet it's not a given that you won't be. Also, it makes no mention of it being opaque or not, just that it can fool people. That is GM discretion on that one unless you have some errata on it, so depending on the table you can't count on that one. My personal ruling would be that anyone succeeding the Perception + Intuition(2) test does so because they can see through it, but that's me.

Bartender: So, you've been sitting here drinking and you think your mind has been raped?
Patron: Yes! Call Lone Star!
Bartender: Ok... Heh, Lone Star, I got a patron here who says he was mind probed.
Lone Star Desk Clerk: Unh huh, and how many beers has he had?
Bartender: Maybe only 3... hey, buddy, blow into this machine here, I need to check your blood alcohol level. Oh, it looks like he's just over the legal limit.
Patron: Well, I wasn't going home for an hour or so, it would have been under by then!
Lone Star Desk Clerk: Look, bartender, tell the patron that we'll be by as soon as we can and to just stay there until we get there, but we have officers responding to a few actual beatings, a fire that just started, a couple robberies and several homicides. We'll get to him when we can get to him.
Bartender: Look, buddy, they'll be here when they get here, but you're not their high priority, I mean this is [insert city name here], you know?
Patron: Can't they just have a mage fly in and look at my brain?
Bartender: Ok, so they rummaged around in your brain or something. Are you bleeding? Any real pain? Anything else I should tell them? No? Then here, have a shot of this on the house. People are dying out there, you're not the #1 priority. Want me to call you a cab to take you to the Lone Star station?
Lone Star Desk Clerk: Sarge, it's that guy again, the one who was drinking and thinks someone mind probed him.
Lone Star Sargent: Frak, we get a number of those every night and there's never anything there when Bob takes a look. Crazy guys who just want attention...

After giving this discussion some more thought, I've begun to realize that there is some considerable differences in how things work in my game world as opposed to the game worlds of others and that seems to be where most of the disconnect comes from. So I'm going to try and explain how certain things work in my game world solely for the purpose of explaining why many of the tactics others have put forward would either not fit the consistency of my game world or just simply wouldn't work altogether. This is in NO WAY meant to imply that I think my way is the best way or that yours is "wrong bad fun". It is simply an explanation of certain bits of fluff from my own game world.

My Shadowrun world is a very violent and uncaring place. This is a part of the dystopia. Violent crimes like murder, rape, arson, etc. happen every day and are not isolated only to certain places, but can and do happen nearly everywhere. Police forces like Lone Star are far too overworked and understaffed to deal with every crime, even the incredibly violent ones. Many of these crimes go unsolved and more than a few never even get reported. There are some areas like in the Redmond Barrens that Lone Star doesn't even bother to patrol and often won't bother to answer calls for aid to. On the rare occasions they do answer calls for aid to these places, they go in force and pull no punches. This is a world where there is a need for an armed and armored ambulance service (Doc Wagon), so its not surprising how prevalent violence really is. Although security cameras are plentiful in many areas and do provide a measure of security, there simply is not enough manpower to sift through the mountain of footage all these cameras record every day. Its information overload. Security cameras can also be unreliable as they are a favorite target of gangs and street punks, so even if you knew an approximate time and location where a violent crime happened, there is no guarantee of a functioning security camera present to record anything.

Police prioritize the cases they investigate based on some simple criteria. First is the importance of the victim. If the victim was a Politician or company Executive then that is going to take top priority and go down from there. Second is the severity of the crime. Yes, that does mean that they will investigate to find out who mugged the Governor of the state before they will investigate to find out who chopped 6 prostitutes into tiny pieces with a chainsaw. Lastly is a determination on how quickly they could apprehend a suspect for the crime given the initial evidence found. If there is enough evidence left at a crime scene that the police can pin down a suspect (or a short list at least) and apprehend them without much difficulty, then they will continue. Otherwise the case is likely to just get filed away because there could be a dozen more just like it tomorrow that need to be looked at. They just don't have the manpower to handle the number of crimes and crime statistics continue to rise year after year. Don't be fooled though, agencies like Lone Star have great propaganda departments that will try to convince you that the level of crime has gone down and never miss a photo-op when they solve a high profile investigation.

The level of violence that people are generally exposed to on a daily basis either out on the streets or from their favorite trid show has had a desentizing effect and created a real sense of apathy to victims of violent crimes; especially when those victims are outside someones immediate circle of friends and family. Most people just aren't willing to get involved with a potentially violent situation if it doesn't directly effect them or someone close to them. Potential witnesses to crimes tend to disperse or lose their short-term memory when security or the cops show up because they simply don't want to get involved for fear of becoming the next victim.

Corporate Enclaves can provide a much better level of security for its employee/citizens. However, these enclaves can also begin to feel like being in prison. The security they provide requires those under its umbrella of protection give up more than a little of their privacy and freedom. This is why many of those who live in these enclaves risk venturing into the less secure world outside from time to time; to taste a little bit of the freedom they may have lost if even just for a night. Corporate security forces are much better about investigating crimes, but are only legally allowed to conduct investigations and apprehend suspects that fall within the confines of their jurisdiction. Although if the crime is severe or important enough something as minor as the law won't stop them from pursuing things well outside their jurisdiction. But they still must weigh the risks vs. the importance of their investigation. Its also important to note that there is little if any cooperation between most Corporate Security forces and municpal police departments. A corp might have conclusive evidence linking a supsect to crime, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily turn it over to anyone on the outside.

Magic. Magic is fairly rare with only around 1% of the population being awakened and having the potential to use it in some way. Of those few that have the potential only a fraction will ever reach their full ability. Those that do are often quickly snatched up by the Mega-corps and can command a high price for their services. Even mediocre Mages are sought after by the Mega-corps because the rarity of practioners makes them a valuable asset too. This ultimately means the population of active magical practioners who ply their craft outside the purview of the Mega-corps is small and most of those tend to be either of below average ability or opposed to the Mega-corps either philosphically (like many Shamans) or in some other way. Even though there are few practioners of magic in the world, there does seem to be a great deal of variety between them. Differing types, tradtions, methods and specialties. Although a Mage and Shaman may cast the same Manabolt spell from a game mechanics standpoint, from a descriptive fluff standpoint their respective methods of doing so are likely completely different. This means there is very little that could be considered "common" knowledge even within the magical community.

Most mundanes know little to nothing about real magic because their primary source of information tends to be hollywood and trid shows that don't bother with finding out what is and is not possible by consulting a real practioner. Although the mention of magic to the average person might be met with a bit of awe and fascination the actual presence of magic is more likely to induce abject fear. No matter how advanced a civilization becomes it would seem that fear and superstition of the unknown remains. If most people are unwilling to get involved by helping the victim of a mundane crime you can just imagine they are going to be even less eager to jump to the aid of a victim when magic might be involved. Especially when it could lead to them being turned into a toad or incinerated. Even a bystander with a gun may not feel it is worth the risk to get involved with magic. Most mundanes would not know even something very basic about magic, like that some spells require Line of Sight between themselves and the caster.


Sorry for the long post, but hopefully this will help to clarify some things and explain why a lot of the suggestions given in this thread are simply not consistent with my game world. Again, this is not meant as an indictment of anyone elses style nor is it intended to derail the primary topic which was about why I think the spell Mind Probe is too OP for my game and why I want to nerf it. Whats more important to me is keeping a degree of consistency and logic within my game world rather than adhering to the "sanctity" of the RAW. I've been a gamer for 28+ years and never GMed an rpg yet that I haven't nerfed in some way. I started playing Shadowrun around '92 or '93 with 2nd edition and have been a big fan ever since. I don't think the SR rules for any of the editions of I played are perfect or truthfully even all that great. At best I consider them generally acceptable. The setting is what has always kept me interested. I have tweaked and nerfed a lot of games and in more ways than I can recall and I will continue to do so until it fits my tastes and preferences. I'm always open to new ideas and suggestions, but must always weigh them against my own vision of the game and style of GMing.

Redcrow... Very Informative...

However, I noticed that you said you adhere to the averages of Mages in the 1% range (within your world view), and that the majority never actually ever reach their potential... do you enforce that at the table? Are most of your Player's Mages in the 3-4 MAgic Attribute Range Max? Most of your teams run without Magic of any kind?

From what it appears that you are saying, you only have 1 Mage per 100 Characters at the table, and that those mages never, ever advance their magic attribute over the average (as you stated that above average mages are snapped up by the Corps)... If that is the case, then magic in your games must be a breeze to actually adjudicate, as you will never actually see a discrepency between the Mages and the Street Samurai... with magic and spellcasting abilities never reaching their potential outside of the Corporate Enclaves, then most of the abuses that are talked about here on the forums would never happen, especially since all of the "Talent" is in the Corps... Mages in this case become the Big, Bad Antagonist, and they would be rare, even then...

Just wanted to point that out...

If, on the other hand, you tend to have mages at the peak of their ability (Skills above 4 and Magic above 4, with 6's being more common), and those characters operate outside of the Corporations, and they comprise more than 1% at your table (concentration of talent towards the City, split between the Corps and the Shadows), well, then you are probably running a normal shadowrun game... Hell, I have seen teams with an 85% distribution of Magically Awakened characters on occassion (Not the norm at our table of course, as we tend to have 1-2 at most on any given Campaign)...

Mages are very easy to control in game... But to do so, you have to use everything at your fingertips to do so, mechanics wise and fluff wise...

If the "World" sees an imbalance, it will automatically adjust so that the imbalance is compensated for...

The world is a living, breathing place, and it can come alive... but when you make the decision to give the Mages a break because it "Might be unfair" to do otherwise, then it is no wonder that magic runs rampant. This tends to result in seeking ways to "nerf" the magical abilities of the awakened... Just use what is already there, and you will not have as many problems...

Part of balancing the Awakened is not rules based but fluff based... non-awakened individuals react when magic happens... When the common man comes into contact with magic, they often react very poorly, and usually to the detriment of the mage... they fear magic for a reason... In your Bar scenario, it is very likely that many of the patrons will indeed feel the magic of your spell if cast at an effective level for the result you seek, at which point, there will be a reaction... what that reaction is depends upon where you are actually located... at the least, you will have cleared the area around you, and at that point, even those who did not notice your magic display are going to start to wonder about that clear space over by the corner...

If you do not use the world as a logical extensions of consequence, than you will always have issues with magic... it is not something that non-awakened find comfortable, and most will not sit still and just accept it...

Just sayin...

Keep the Faith

I handle it sort of in the reverse so as not to limit character Mages. So the number of character Practioners is not limited by the worlds ratio, but rather the number of practioners that are able to reach their full potential in the world is reduced by the number of character Mages. Characters tend to be a bit above the average and so character Practioners are usually pulled directly from those able to reach their full potential. Obviously they don't start at their full potential and getting there isn't going to be nearly as easy for the average Shadowrunner as it would be under the tutelage and guidance of a Corp.

Mega-corps do try to snatch up the best practioners and even plenty of just average ones. Not all are lured away by what the Corps offer however, but a majority yes. Even those who remain in the private sector can expect to be well paid for their services if they are good at what they do. Not too many places like nightclubs/bars could justify the expense of hiring fulltime magical security considering how few of their customers are even likely to be magically active. The few places that can justify the expense usually cater to a very elite and select clientele and are most often Corp owned and run.



I don't consider having Skill and Magic at 4+ as the peak of a Mages ability. While those are certainly above average attributes, its far from the peak of ability. Initiation is where a Mage begins to reach their peak and few Mages in my game world are able to achieve that. I treat Initiation in my game world a lot like Delta-grade cyberware. It exists, but is far from easy to obtain. Most Mages know as much about Initiation as the average mundane knows about real magic (i.e. mostly myth-information). I usually don't limit what spells a Mage can begin with (which I may need to start doing), but instead let the player know that it may not be easy for them to learn new spells once the game begins. This helped to mitigate spellcasters somewhat in previous editions because they were required to buy their spells at a specific Force and would often buy a lot of low Force spells. In 4e this doesn't really work as well to mitigate things because now its simply either or. Either you have the spell or you don't and the Force is more fluid.

So, no Magic 101 at the local community college. On the other hand, the Corps do provide relatively easy access to training and is one of the big lures of working for them. Probably why a lot of players in my game end up as Shamans with Mentor spirits is because there just aren't a lot of places in the world that cater to teaching/training Mages.

I would also like to mention that I do not allow Mages in my game to begin with Astral Projection. They can take Astral Perception, but full Projection I consider to be one of the higher magical mysteries that very few Mages are able to do.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, Interesting indeed...

Keep the Faith

Nope. The spell is cast on target, target gains the sense. The spell is sustained on them. So if you give the sense to yourself, yea no matter where you go it is sustained. You give it to your street sam buddy it can be sustained no matter where you go. As a sense it has a range of magic x force meters so if he leaves and hops into a cab it will be broken. But yes just breaking line of sight does not break it, but distance does. 20 meters is probably enough when you are in a bar though. Thing is since this sense is given to a target the street sam is probably an awesome choice since he likely has the most complex actions available per combat turn.

Edit to add. For things like passwords isn't mind probe in a bar a really bad plan. Dude starts reading your mind and you are the keeper to the death stars self destruct code. You quickly call Bob your supervisor and say my mind is being read, change my passwords. For this to be effective wont you have to do the same crap you would have to do with a normal interrogation, grab them without anyone knowing, get the info, release him back with his memory altered?

See, I would disagree here (a bit anyways)... yes the spell can be sustained from anywhere, independant of who actually has the sense... but if the target subject (Victim?) of the sense cannot be seen, then you should suffer for it... it is a SENSE afterall, not a license to just probe in a spherical area to your hearts content... you must be able to actually sense the target subject... for me, the easiest way to correlate that is by sight... the Sense is Directional, so it should work the same exact way at that point (It is not an area effect after all)...

And yes, the street sam might indeed be the best choice for the Sense recipient due to his speed...

Keep the Faith

Not so sure about that. It is pretty easy for the mage to get +3 INI and +3 IP. Most starting Sams don't have that. The mage however has the problem that he has to sustain that spell. A Force 4 sustaining focus can only be acquired during CharGen with restricted gear, and a mage better take that for a Force 4 Power Focus IMHO.

True...

And then you have the Hackers that can sport 5 Passes, and can view targets through optical feeds (much like the Mage Sight Fiberoptic Security System)... it will be situational, I agree...

Keep the Faith

You know I think you are right. I kept thinking of it like it was an area spell like detect enemies, but it is directional and it is active. Since it is directional I think you need to be able to target them in order to cause the opposed test , which means you got to see them and you have to keep seeing them to maintain it. They can just duck under the table and break line of sight in most cases.

5 Matrix IPs. I doubt they can use them to ask the victim questions.

Which is how I interpret it as well...

Keep the Faith

I think it is a in most cases thing. Most mages don't have extra passes at least for a while IMO. As for the hacker thin TJ mentioned, well I just would not allow it to work. Sorry no magic sense when you are hot simmed even if it is to look through an optical feed. You are hot simmed which breaks the optical level IMO.

Sure, it was just a thought... it is way abusive though...

Keep the Faith