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Nixda
Interesting.

But why is the MAUL being described as a 5 shot system on one page and a 4 shot system on another ? I was wondering already when the video showed it firing only 4 shots in short order...

http://www.metalstorm.com/content/view/68/115/
Traul
Semi-auto? What's that crap?

I WANT MY FA GRENADE LAUNCHER! biggrin.gif

If they prefer to market their guns towards people who get to actually use them instead of gamers, what can I say?
Mx
I have for months now planning on statting out the Maul, its a nifty weapon consept.
Cardul
I wish there was more then the Sakura Fubuki that used the Metal Storm tech....then again, I wish
it was given its own special rules, too...
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 8 2010, 04:37 AM) *
Semi-auto? What's that crap?

I WANT MY FA GRENADE LAUNCHER! biggrin.gif

If they prefer to market their guns towards people who get to actually use them instead of gamers, what can I say?


If you want full auto, Metal Storm is not the tech for you.

Metal Storm is great for massive burst capacity.

Sustained fire it's not particularly great at, as it cannot accept any sort of continuous feed.



-karma
Traul
You are right, but on these ones they even disabled the burst fire.

There might be technical issues, but I would bet their real concern is the military clients trying to spare ammunition.
Mongoose
There's also the issue that, without any sort of loader mechanism cycling, the recoil is much higher than it would be for a conventional SA / FA weapon. I suspect that FA (or bursts) would be entirely uncontrollable, worse even than a it would be on a normal shotgun. If the burst doesn't improve your hit ratio, why have it?
Udoshi
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 8 2010, 02:37 AM) *
Semi-auto? What's that crap?

I WANT MY FA GRENADE LAUNCHER! biggrin.gif


Well, there -is- H&K's grenade machine gun. Here.

Then there's This Thing. Its not just a grenade machine gun, its an LMG too.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 8 2010, 10:43 AM) *
Well, there -is- H&K's grenade machine gun. Here.

Then there's This Thing. Its not just a grenade machine gun, its an LMG too.


.50 cal is HMG, not LMG.
Dr Funfrock
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 8 2010, 01:43 PM) *
Well, there -is- H&K's grenade machine gun. Here.


I swear, the guy was just about ready to drop trou and rub one out over that thing.

Also, love how the description calls it "The British Army's grenade machine gun".
Which was made by Germans.
Yeah, really rocking the national pride there guys.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Dr Funfrock @ Jun 8 2010, 11:09 AM) *
Also, love how the description calls it "The British Army's grenade machine gun".
Which was made by Germans.
Yeah, really rocking the national pride there guys.


All the quality weapons used by the British Army are built by Germans.
Yerameyahu
Nothing wrong with that. It's the automatic grenade launcher *of* the British Army. FN and HK make many of the US's personal weapons, too.

I've always wondered about this exact point: we've had belted automatic GLs for years, and yet that kind of thing's still not in SR. Alas. smile.gif
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2010, 12:11 PM) *
Nothing wrong with that. It's the automatic grenade launcher *of* the British Army. FN and HK make many of the US's personal weapons, too.


I believe nearly 70% of the US military's personal weapons are made by Springfield Armory, under license from Armalite, and Winchester, with Baretta making around 11%, H&K around 7% and FN around 3%. H&K may be a little higher with the Virginia factory, but they are still a significant minority compared to Springfield.
Dumori
The GL/50cal HMG option is like my trolls pet bar the FA GL fire. Airbust GL launcher mounted unberbarrle of a HMG. Its verstility in SR makes me wonder if such a system has been considered in IRL. Mass could be an issue and the underbarrle weapon wouldn't be able to cary huge amounts of ammo. But the switch time would be next to none existent.
Dumori
QUOTE (Dr Funfrock @ Jun 8 2010, 07:09 PM) *
I swear, the guy was just about ready to drop trou and rub one out over that thing.

Also, love how the description calls it "The British Army's grenade machine gun".
Which was made by Germans.
Yeah, really rocking the national pride there guys.

The fact is it's used by them and in that sense it is their's but also I bout many country's manufacture all there own armaments. So the fact its a H&K gun also makes no difference.
Yerameyahu
10% of the US' personal weapons is still 'many'. biggrin.gif

Yes, I think you've got it: in the real world, what application would require a HMG with a UBGL? Either you've got ARs with UBGLs, or you've got an auto grenade launcher (Mk19?), or what on earth else could you be fighting? smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2010, 03:11 PM) *
Nothing wrong with that. It's the automatic grenade launcher *of* the British Army. FN and HK make many of the US's personal weapons, too.

I've always wondered about this exact point: we've had belted automatic GLs for years, and yet that kind of thing's still not in SR. Alas. smile.gif



They don't put things like that in the game because it is a game and it would not be fun for anyone. There really isn't a way to balance a "fully automatic grenade launcher that just kills everyone within 5 meters", or whatever that guy said.
Yerameyahu
Oh? I noticed that the game had nuclear submarines and supersonic fighter jets…

It's a general problem in all kinds of 'future' games: real life has often *already* surpassed them, which is vaguely annoying. It's not a significant problem, but we happened to be discussing it. smile.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2010, 06:48 PM) *
Oh? I noticed that the game had nuclear submarines and supersonic fighter jets

It's a general problem in all kinds of 'future' games: real life has often *already* surpassed them, which is vaguely annoying. It's not a significant problem, but we happened to be discussing it. smile.gif


There is a difference in a GM plot device like a sub and a man portable weapon that can be at a ridiculous number of security points and in the players hands.
hobgoblin
rigger3 had vehicles that runners where more likely to do runs in, then runs with.

still, want a full auto grenade launcher, or the SR4 nearest equivalent, check out the hail barrage vehicle rocket launcher.

only problem with it is that the recoil rules go crazy on it just by launching about 2-3 of them. Its only potential saving grace is that its ammo is area effect...
Yerameyahu
My point is that there are any number of 'dangerously powerful' items, so your reason for exclusion isn't that good. I admit that it's not a terribly *useful* item within the game context, but neither is the penile cyberware. Many things *in* the game are very forbidden, etc., so they could simply have included a simple, old-tech Mk19, for use by militaries only. *shrug*
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2010, 05:58 PM) *
My point is that there are any number of 'dangerously powerful' items, so your reason for exclusion isn't that good. I admit that it's not a terribly *useful* item within the game context, but neither is the penile cyberware. Many things *in* the game are very forbidden, etc., so they could simply have included a simple, old-tech Mk19, for use by militaries only. *shrug*



A nuclear sub I can explain why its militaries only. Something I can fit in my trunk is a bit harder. You might not like the reason but game balance is a reason why they wont put in super kill everything devices that the players logically can get there hands on, and would logically face occasionally. When it is something like a HMG level gun in size, and you put it in the game you have to make it survivable at the same level as other heavy weapons. So sure they put it in but now grenades to 5DV on a direct hit or something else that is dumb so it is balanced. They simply can't do it right and keep the game balanced so they don't put it in.

Though given the rtarded scatter rules of 4a, I say go for it. It will suck ass.
Yerameyahu
I have no trouble with the scatter rules, SR3/4/4a; grenades are stupid-powerful. smile.gif

Anyway. There's the Thunderstruck and the MP Heavy Laser, and any number of 'vehicle only' weapons (which the Mk19 could easily be classed as); 'unbalanceable' is not an adequate reason. smile.gif Again, it's not a major issue, it's just annoying when real life is *better* than the future. At least they included a few lasers. biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
if SR was to include a variant of each real life weapon out there, i wonder if not it would be arsenal thickness with just weapons.

we humans seems to be very good at making things that kill us.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 8 2010, 08:22 PM) *
I have no trouble with the scatter rules, SR3/4/4a; grenades are stupid-powerful. smile.gif

Anyway. There's the Thunderstruck and the MP Heavy Laser, and any number of 'vehicle only' weapons (which the Mk19 could easily be classed as); 'unbalanceable' is not an adequate reason. smile.gif Again, it's not a major issue, it's just annoying when real life is *better* than the future. At least they included a few lasers. biggrin.gif



4a had 2 nerfs for grenades, missiles etc.

1. scatter was upped a bunch to ridiculous levels in some cases.
2. Net hits do not increase the damage.

So lets say you miraculously 7 hits and cancel average grenade scatter. To the main target he takes 10P-2 AP, every meter away a person is drops the damage for them. So yes I expect a group to be clumped I think it is reasonable to assume 2-3 meters of separation or 7-8P-2AP. 4 Body,4 Armor after AP drops the primary target to roughly 7dmg and the rest to around 5. Now they do have SA pistol size grenade launchers so umm duel wield them and go crazy if you wants lots of grenades flying. But the above does not seem that powerful to me given the ludicrous number of hits you need to cancel scatter. More likely you missed your target by 4+meters and people are starting there resistance at DV7 and lower.

I think reducing the dmg of grenades etc is okay, but they didn't need the double hit. Especially considering how easy it is to drop in a force 9 stunball and hit everything in a 9 meter radius for 10S which they wont soak down at all.

EKBT81
Slightly off-topic...

QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 8 2010, 11:45 PM) *
I believe nearly 70% of the US military's personal weapons are made by Springfield Armory, under license from Armalite, and Winchester, with Baretta making around 11%, H&K around 7% and FN around 3%. H&K may be a little higher with the Virginia factory, but they are still a significant minority compared to Springfield.


I really doubt that regarding the US military's current weapons. AFAIK Armalite didn't license the rights for the AR-15/M16 design, they sold them to Colt in 1959. Today the M16 is made by Colt and FN, and to a smaller amount Sabre Defence. Historically, M16s were also made by Harrington & Richardson and GM Hydramatic. The contract for the M4 Carbine was IIRC exclusive to Colt until 2009.

And today's private Springfield Armory, Inc. doesn't really have any meaningful connection with the former government-run Springfield Armory. Basically some businessman registered the name as a trademark when the DoD closed down the arsenal in Springfield, MA in 1968.
Mx
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 9 2010, 03:22 AM) *
I have no trouble with the scatter rules, SR3/4/4a; grenades are stupid-powerful. smile.gif

Have you actually read the scatter rules in SR4A, you can get 4+ nethits(a critical succes) when trowing a greanade and still have it end up between your own feet.'
So you get a critical succes and end up with a resuit that should really only happen on a critical failure.

But using airburst link makes those grenadelauncher little more reliable.
Tachi
Hmm... full-auto grenade launcher. How about the AA-12 full-auto shotgun, which has so little recoil that a 12 year old can fire it full-auto and hit with the whole mag. Just load it with Frag-12 12ga. mini-grenades. Just a thought.

AngelisStorm
Except shotguns suffer double recoil, and are unable to mount gas-vents (unless they come with it). Poor shotguns; they get no love.
Tachi
Oh yeah. I keep forgeting I'm not allowed to apply real world reality to SR.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Tachi @ Jun 9 2010, 06:34 AM) *
Hmm... full-auto grenade launcher. How about the AA-12 full-auto shotgun, which has so little recoil that a 12 year old can fire it full-auto and hit with the whole mag. Just load it with Frag-12 12ga. mini-grenades. Just a thought.

-- I cannot speak to the full-auto AA-12, but I have fired the USAS-12 and it has pretty much the same felt-recoil as a normal shotgun (if not more, as it is a bit ungainly).
Tachi
The USAS-12 and AA-12 are different weapons, Google it, it's new and very cool.
Tzeentch
The original design dates back to the 1970s, and heavily influenced the USAS-12 (it's no huge surprise that they look alike). My comment was more to your hyperbolic statement "so little recoil that a 12 year old can fire it full-auto and hit with the whole mag." Even in the Future Weapons fluff piece on it, you can see that this wouldn't be the case. I never quite understood the appeal of such a gimmick weapon myself (outside of video games).

In other news, the HK416D165RS is supposed to be adopted as the M27 in at least limited amounts by the USMC soon, displacing the M249 SAW.
Tachi
Did you watch the short or long version of the Future Weapons bit? In the one I saw on TV they had a kid do just as I suggested, and he handled it just fine, though it's possible he had a lot of firearms experience, or even the he was a little older, like 13-14, he just looked 12 to me. If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have mentioned it like that.
Yerameyahu
The Mk19 fires bigger grenades than Frag-12, thats all. I think *they* should be in SR4, too, though.

You guys are right: like any sane person, I've only used airburst grenades. I trust you that non-airburst are problematic, I guess. smile.gif
Dumori
Grenades in SR all sorts of wackiness I mean they range from 20mm to fitting in a pistol and do the same damage. really a 20mm granade in SR woudl be deadly and a 40mm would be stupidly lethal. I'm not going to do a scale up using the explosive rules but if one did I can only say you'd be looking at at least 20DV for a 20mm granade.
Yerameyahu
My group's always been annoyed by *that* too, Dumori. What we did was reduce the power of the mini (airburst) grenades, and bump thrown grenades a little (to reflect the difference between 40mm launched and Mk67). They *should* be stupidly-lethal, though.
Dumori
Thats no my point abpout leathality. My real point is that but the looks of it a .45 grenade and a 20-40mm one do the same damage. That is just insane
Deadmannumberone
This video (2:17 specifically) shows fairly well the recoil of the AA-12.

I personally tended to use grenades in a utility role (pre-assembled demolitions devices) than as a combat weapon. They can be acquired with a wireless connection, so you can place them where you want them, get to a safe location, then detonate them easily. Yes, it's OP, considering you'd be looking at more than 1000 and a demolitions test to make an equivalent bomb, however it is RAW.

I'm looking at a house ruling on grenades (flare grenades, flash grenades, and flash-paks are unchanged):
Damage;
HE (-3/m blast):
Thrown: 6P, GL: 3P
Frag (-1/m blast):
Thrown: 6P, GL: 3P
WP (-1/2 m blast, all in blast radius take 4P fire damage for 10 combat turns)
Thrown: 4P, GL: 2P
Incendiary (-1/4 m blast, all in blast radius take 1P fire damage for 5 combat turns)
Thrown: 3P, GL: 1P
Flashbang (-1/2 m blast)
Thrown: 6S, GL: 3S
Ink, Smoke, and Thermal Smoke (heavy smoke radius, light smoke in double radius)
Thrown: 5 m, GL: 3 m
Gas grenade (contact or inhalation toxins only; double the poser of the toxin within power/10 meters, halve the power of the toxin beyond doses/4 meters, no effect beyond doses/2 meters):
Thrown: Max 20 doses, GL: Max 12 doses
Splash grenade (contact toxins only; double the power of the toxin within power/8 meters, the rest is the same as gas grenades)
Thrown: Max 25 doses, GL: Max 15 doses

Targeting:
Location targeting, open test.

New scatter rules for all weapons that scatter;
Scatters xD6-hits meters, where x is the range category (short=1, medium=2, long=3, extreme=4). Halve scatter if set to detonate on impact, and air burst grenades count hits double (and always count as exploding on impact).

Cost:
HE: 100
Frag: 150
WP: 400
Incendiary: 100
Flashbang: 50
Gas, Ink, Smoke, Splash, and Thermal Smoke: No change
Mx
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 9 2010, 07:03 PM) *
I'm looking at a house ruling on grenades (flare grenades, flash grenades, and flash-paks are unchanged):

wobble.gif wobble.gif wobble.gif
Why dont you just remove grenades from the game would be much easier.
Becouse thats obliviously what you want to do.
Shinobi Killfist
About the only house rules I would want to add to grenades is that everyone in the effective area can make a reaction+cover test to increase the effective range they are from the blast. It wouldn't actually have them move but they are making themselves smaller targets, maximizing cover etc. and then change scatter back to sane levels and the test for grenades is always open targeted on a specific meter area.

If I were to return to where damage scaled up I'd likely reduce base damage a bit.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 9 2010, 12:33 PM) *
wobble.gif wobble.gif wobble.gif
Why dont you just remove grenades from the game would be much easier.
Becouse thats obliviously what you want to do.


No, I'm trying to bring them into balance with explosives and demolitions. Why should I spend 1,050 on a kilo of rating 10 plastic explosive, a detonating cap, and a radio detonator, then make a demolitions+logic test, when I can get it all prepackaged for only 45 with a much lower availability to boot.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Tachi @ Jun 9 2010, 08:34 AM) *
Hmm... full-auto grenade launcher. How about the AA-12 full-auto shotgun, which has so little recoil that a 12 year old can fire it full-auto and hit with the whole mag. Just load it with Frag-12 12ga. mini-grenades. Just a thought.

from the videos i have found online, the frag-12 seems to work more like a SR shotgun loaded with ex-ex slugs then a thrown "pineapple".
AngelisStorm
Because with your changes we have the dynamite problem again. A character can hold a grenade in his or her hand, laugh, detonate it... and has no chance of dying.
Deadmannumberone
Perhaps add in some "military grade magnum grenades" that cost x2 and do more damage, while the ones I listed above are the security variants.
Saint Sithney
Demolitions can also be used to increase damage, which then gets doubled, tripled or quadrupled based on how well you tamp it.

So, a logic 5 Demo 1 (plastique) talented novice can fairly reliably turn that rating 10 plastique charge into a 39-52DV breaching charge, while a grenade resting against a wall still only does 20DV.

A logic heavy character with proper specializations can absolutely kill a demo test and spin commercial charges into gold.
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jun 9 2010, 04:12 PM) *
Demolitions can also be used to increase damage, which then gets doubled, tripled or quadrupled based on how well you tamp it.

So, a logic 5 Demo 1 (plastique) talented novice can fairly reliably turn that rating 10 plastique charge into a 39-52DV breaching charge, while a grenade resting against a wall still only does 20DV.

A logic heavy character with proper specializations can absolutely kill a demo test and spin commercial charges into gold.


Using demolitions to increase the damage of a grenade by targeting weak spots in a structure, as well as tamping and placement can be done with a grenade just as easily as it can be done with explosives.

Besides that, 20 DV from 20 grenades (1000 worth) is going to get through the wall.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 9 2010, 03:24 PM) *
Using demolitions to increase the damage of a grenade by targeting weak spots in a structure, as well as tamping and placement can be done with a grenade just as easily as it can be done with explosives.

Besides that, 20 DV from 20 grenades (1000 worth) is going to get through the wall.


That first point sounds an awful lot like you're houseruling to make grenades more powerful and then complaining that they're too powerful...
Just make them a weapon or a charge, not both. They already do 2xDV to straight 1x Barrier AV. That's enough for most doors.

On the second point, that's true, but demo charges are way smaller and easier to sneak through a MAD scanner, so they still have their place. I guess Microgrenades are easy enough to hide though. Point conceded. 20 HE grenades could cause an ((10+19)x2) = 58DV blast which outshines the novice demo tech and his 39DV prop and tamp bomb.

It's always seemed funny to me that you can buy a grenade for the price of 9 hollowpoint bullets..
Mx
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jun 9 2010, 10:43 PM) *
No, I'm trying to bring them into balance with explosives and demolitions.

No, what your doing is making grenades useless, why would anyone ever use a grenade launcher when it does less damage then a hold-out pistol
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