Dumpshock Forums > I just don't get the Matrix, at all...

Ryu

Jun 11 2010, 07:41 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 11 2010, 04:50 AM)

I think that you missed the point I was making with the Sprites... When a sprite enters a system, if they do not have the Stealth CF, then THEY cannot be stealthy, and will generally set off every alarm out there upon system access... this is a problem if the Technomancer is trying to be stealthy, as the Sprites have to be with the Technomancer in teh system that they are aiding him in... sucks to be them at that point.

The sprites have to be in one node the TM is also subscribed to, so that they can receive their orders. The TMs own node works just fine for that. Note also that there is no requirement of "sprite has CF in question" (p.241 of The Precious, Assist Operation)

QUOTE

Continuous "Whistling Up" of Sprites eats actions... this isz generally a bad thing when you are actively penetrating a system... lost passes result in more time in the system... My Hacker has 3 passes in AR and takles absolutely NO Damage from Attacks by Programs or Persona... You cannot really say the same for the Technomancer now can you? And lets not remember that a Technomancer can only have as many sprites as his Charisma... so generally not a boatload there...

The loss of actions is a concern in combat hacking. You compensate by throwing arround R10+ offensive programs, and having the Shield CF threaded, and combat sprites.

QUOTE

And lets not forget that the Technomancer actually ahs to Hack the node he wants to enter in... lets see... Find the Node (you are doing this remotely right?)... Decrypt the Node, Perform a MAtrix Perception Check to see if the Node has a DataBomb attached to it, Defuse the Databomb (Hope that it does not just come right back up) and then Actually HACK the node for the Access Rights... Plenty of things in that scenario can go wrong, and this could be just a standard "Secure" node... Heaven help you (Hackers and Technomancers) if it is a Ultra High-Security Node... And lets not forget that the Technomancer rolls an OPPOSED TEST for that Stealth... I have seen 20 Dice produce only a single hit before (Rare, but it happens)... Dice are oftentimes capricious.

This is a general concern for the matrix rules. Many rolls and statistics... statistics are still massivly on the TM side.

QUOTE

As for Response Hits due to Program overload... I would call that an even deal... Hackers Buy, and Technomancers spend KArma, all other things wash in teh Response category (It is very easy, as you said, to have a fairly high program load afterall, so it is really not that much of a limitation for the Hacker)

Program overload is not much of a concern for those who don´t try to exploit agents.

QUOTE

And Sprites... I would hardly call 7 Sprites an Army (Though I think that you might be able to start as high as a 10? Still, hardly an army). The Hacker, on the other hand, is only limited in his pocketbook... 100 Agents at Rating 3...No Problem... just a simple 300,000 Nuyen (Hacked, only 30,000 Nuyen, and good for a month or two)... Technomancer can only WISH they could have as many Sprites...

Every agent beyond what you need to succeed is just increasing your odds of failure. One sprite to amp Stealth, Threading to amp the CF you will use, done.

Wandering One

Jun 11 2010, 11:39 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 10 2010, 07:50 PM)

I think that you missed the point I was making with the Sprites... When a sprite enters a system, if they do not have the Stealth CF, then THEY cannot be stealthy, and will generally set off every alarm out there upon system access... this is a problem if the Technomancer is trying to be stealthy, as the Sprites have to be with the Technomancer in teh system that they are aiding him in... sucks to be them at that point.

QUOTE

The sprites have to be in one node the TM is also subscribed to, so that they can receive their orders. The TMs own node works just fine for that. Note also that there is no requirement of "sprite has CF in question" (p.241 of The Precious, Assist Operation)

Let's hit the rules...

QUOTE (SR4a pg 241)

Sprites must remain with the technomancer. Sprites can be temporarily dismissed at any time and called back at a later point (within
that 8-hour period); both requiring a Simple Action. Sprites can only access other nodes if they are accompanying or called by the technomancer, or if they are sent on a remote task.

QUOTE (SR4a pg 241)

Sprite-Technomancer Link
Technomancers maintain a mental link with their sprites as long as they remain online. This link allows them to communicate through the Matrix and send text, images, files, etc. For this reason, a technomancer will know if a sprite is destroyed, as the mental link will cease to function.

Using the spirit/sprite confusion, a spirit back at home can sustain a spell, so a sprite hanging around the techno in another node could, in theory, sustain his threading. To directly affecting the CF though as support, I'd have to say yes, the sprite would need to be directly there. And at rating 4, if it is found, simply dismissed so the alert goes away as the analyzer can't see it anymore and then re-summon it before the analyzer gets around to caring about YOU. Another thing to note about Technos, they don't HAVE an AccessID, RAW. There's nothing for it to link onto to keep the alert against/force logout.

QUOTE (Ty)

Continuous "Whistling Up" of Sprites eats actions... this isz generally a bad thing when you are actively penetrating a system... lost passes result in more time in the system... My Hacker has 3 passes in AR and takles absolutely NO Damage from Attacks by Programs or Persona... You cannot really say the same for the Technomancer now can you? And lets not remember that a Technomancer can only have as many sprites as his Charisma... so generally not a boatload there...

? Okay, let's take an example. Techno says to hell with stealth, we're going in. 5 charisma, so 5 registered buddies and a whistled up freebee for the day, all rating 3. There's no node overload because all of 'em ignore what's going on in the target node for load. Sick two on datasearching and finding me neat goodies, two on crashing the programs of the node and local IC watcher (no analyze for you, buddy boys), another one analyzing everything coming in with semi-conscious AI and simply pinging me if it's interesting, and the last one beefing up my defuse for databombs as information looks neat. I gave it two tasks at once, sustain my threading on defuse and then support it, using two tasks at once. Easy for the freebee.

6 semi-sentient mini-mes? Good lord man, we just ate your house. In the 2 IPs it takes me to issue all those orders most IC hasn't even re-scanned yet, next round they don't even HAVE anything to analyze with and I haven't lost any time, but gained it in net eventually.

QUOTE (Ty)

And lets not forget that the Technomancer actually ahs to Hack the node he wants to enter in... lets see... Find the Node (you are doing this remotely right?)... snip

Yep, just like the hacker, nothing out of the ordinary there...

QUOTE (Ty)

And lets not forget that the Technomancer rolls an OPPOSED TEST for that Stealth...

Book, page, and preferably quote please. I'm afraid I missed this one if it's out there. Stealth is a threshold for analyze+pilot/ICrating/system, not opposed.

QUOTE (Ty)

And Sprites... I would hardly call 7 Sprites an Army (Though I think that you might be able to start as high as a 10? Still, hardly an army). The Hacker, on the other hand, is only limited in his pocketbook... 100 Agents at Rating 3...No Problem... just a simple 300,000 Nuyen (Hacked, only 30,000 Nuyen, and good for a month or two)... Technomancer can only WISH they could have as many Sprites...

...And crash whatever node they tried to load up in, or visit, even if you limted them to 4 programs a piece.

QUOTE (Ty)

By the Way, it does not take Years to Program a Worm... A Worm is essentially a Malware Agent... As such, it is Threshold (Rating x 3) and a 3 Month Interval... which you can reduce to 6 Weeks with a Programming Environmewnt, and then to 3 weeks with a Rush Job... So, 1 Roll each 3 weeks... I created mine in about 12 Weeks without to much difficulty (And that was a Rating 6 with Options; Gotta do something with the Downtime while hiding out)... so no, definitely not years.

At 100ny/day yep, you can get to the 6 week thresh-hold, but please, book/page/quote of the rush job? Can't seem to find it in Unwired or 4a.

QUOTE (Ty)

Hackers are definitely on par with Technomancers. htey are both pretty damn versatile in the Matrix, but the Technomancer has drawbacks (That WHole Living Persona thing just really sucks, regardless if his Bionode cannot be hacked.

The living persona is supposed to be the 'balance' for all these neat toys... the thing is, the Techno can get in and out of most places so easily that he never feels that threat, and he's the only one who can really get into supernodes with a chance in hell of getting to the objective. *shrugs* I'm enjoying the debate but I'm afraid I still remain unconvinced.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 12 2010, 12:01 AM

QUOTE (Wandering One @ Jun 11 2010, 04:39 PM)

Let's hit the rules...

Using the spirit/sprite confusion, a spirit back at home can sustain a spell, so a sprite hanging around the techno in another node could, in theory, sustain his threading. To directly affecting the CF though as support, I'd have to say yes, the sprite would need to be directly there. And at rating 4, if it is found, simply dismissed so the alert goes away as the analyzer can't see it anymore and then re-summon it before the analyzer gets around to caring about YOU. Another thing to note about Technos, they don't HAVE an AccessID, RAW. There's nothing for it to link onto to keep the alert against/force logout.

Okay, let's take an example. Techno says to hell with stealth, we're going in. 5 charisma, so 5 registered buddies and a whistled up freebee for the day, all rating 3. There's no node overload because all of 'em ignore what's going on in the target node for load. Sick two on datasearching and finding me neat goodies, two on crashing the programs of the node and local IC watcher (no analyze for you, buddy boys), another one analyzing everything coming in with semi-conscious AI and simply pinging me if it's interesting, and the last one beefing up my defuse for databombs as information looks neat. I gave it two tasks at once, sustain my threading on defuse and then support it, using two tasks at once. Easy for the freebee.

6 semi-sentient mini-mes? Good lord man, we just ate your house. In the 2 IPs it takes me to issue all those orders most IC hasn't even re-scanned yet, next round they don't even HAVE anything to analyze with and I haven't lost any time, but gained it in net eventually.

Yep, just like the hacker, nothing out of the ordinary there...

Book, page, and preferably quote please. I'm afraid I missed this one if it's out there. Stealth is a threshold for analyze+pilot/ICrating/system, not opposed.

...And crash whatever node they tried to load up in, or visit, even if you limted them to 4 programs a piece.

At 100ny/day yep, you can get to the 6 week thresh-hold, but please, book/page/quote of the rush job? Can't seem to find it in Unwired or 4a.

The living persona is supposed to be the 'balance' for all these neat toys... the thing is, the Techno can get in and out of most places so easily that he never feels that threat, and he's the only one who can really get into supernodes with a chance in hell of getting to the objective. *shrugs* I'm enjoying the debate but I'm afraid I still remain unconvinced.

The Stealth Test is opposed once inside the system, and a threshold while attempting to hack the system...

QUOTE

Page 231 of SR4A

If your target is running a Stealth program, the Matrix Perception test becomes an Opposed Test, with the target rolling Hacking + Stealth (or Firewall + Stealth for programs or nodes) as the opposing dice pool. The hits from this test reduce your hits and consequently the amount of information you get. If you garner no net hits, the target is not invisible as such, but its icon has melded into the background of data traffic, escaping your notice.

That should do for the confusion on Stealth...

Would post more, but My Shadowrun game is on the move... gotta go catch up to it...

Keep the Faith

Wandering One

Jun 12 2010, 12:24 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 11 2010, 05:01 PM)

That should do for the confusion on Stealth...

Would post more, but My Shadowrun game is on the move... gotta go catch up to it...

Keep the Faith

... A simple case of 'Damn, I've been doin' it wrong!' Thought that threshold was a consistent barrier. Yeah, that's gonna make a dent. Let me rethink my arguments.

hobgoblin

Jun 12 2010, 12:44 AM

iirc, TMs do accessid by way of spoofing. So they can be targeted by it in a node. But once they leave they probably do like any smart hacker do, respoof it.

Ryu

Jun 12 2010, 12:11 PM

QUOTE (Wandering One @ Jun 12 2010, 01:39 AM)

Using the spirit/sprite confusion, a spirit back at home can sustain a spell, so a sprite hanging around the techno in another node could, in theory, sustain his threading. To directly affecting the CF though as support, I'd have to say yes, the sprite would need to be directly there. And at rating 4, if it is found, simply dismissed so the alert goes away as the analyzer can't see it anymore and then re-summon it before the analyzer gets around to caring about YOU. Another thing to note about Technos, they don't HAVE an AccessID, RAW. There's nothing for it to link onto to keep the alert against/force logout.

There is an important difference between the meat world and the matrix world - via your persona, you can be present in more than one location at once. Given that Support Operation is effectivly written as "Improve CF", actual operations can be improved on different nodes than the sprite is on. Your limitation would make sense, but is not an official rule AFAIK.

Sengir

Jun 12 2010, 02:05 PM

QUOTE (Wandering One @ Jun 11 2010, 11:39 PM)

At 100ny/day yep, you can get to the 6 week thresh-hold, but please, book/page/quote of the rush job? Can't seem to find it in Unwired or 4a.

4A BBB, p 65. You cut the interval of an extended test in half, but both ones and twos count for glitches

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 12 2010, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 12 2010, 08:05 AM)

4A BBB, p 65. You cut the interval of an extended test in half, but both ones and twos count for glitches

Thanks Sengir... I always have a hard time finding that particular rule when I am actually looking for it...

Keep the Faith

Sengir

Jun 12 2010, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 12 2010, 03:49 PM)

Thanks Sengir... I always have a hard time finding that particular rule when I am actually looking for it...

Keep the Faith

Strg + F

tagz

Jun 12 2010, 04:58 PM

Also, groups can make use of the optional rule to allow spending edge to reduce the interval of a task by half. I use this optional rule and allow it in downtime for just such purposes.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 12 2010, 06:16 PM

QUOTE (tagz @ Jun 12 2010, 10:58 AM)

Also, groups can make use of the optional rule to allow spending edge to reduce the interval of a task by half. I use this optional rule and allow it in downtime for just such purposes.

I had not noticed that one... Interesting...

Keep the Faith

tagz

Jun 13 2010, 01:20 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 12 2010, 07:16 PM)

I had not noticed that one... Interesting...

Keep the Faith

SR4A p75. Under Edge Variations.

hobgoblin

Jun 13 2010, 01:23 AM

shows up in SR4 p69 as well, so its mostly that its a variant rule that have kept it out of the spotlight.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 13 2010, 02:30 AM

QUOTE (tagz @ Jun 12 2010, 06:20 PM)

SR4A p75. Under Edge Variations.

Sweet, Thanks for the Reference...

Keep the Faith