Ok, I know this will seem completely stupid to some people... but could someone please explain how Metatype works using the standard RAW Runner's Companion Karmagen rules?
I've always used the BP system in SR4 and SR4A up till now, and the priority chargen in previous versions. However, I might be running a game soon and some players are interested in Karmagen.
After reading the rules presented on Pages 41 and 42... it doesn't seem to compute in my head, especially after doing a search on Karmagen here on dumpshock and reading various posts about it.
In RC, it says that Metatype costs nothing... but then you still start at minimum attribute ratings for your metatype. This just seems like free points, not to mention other metatype features that they get.
Yet I've read posts where some say it just costs the same karma as it costs in BP, and other posts where they say it's BP x 2.
So..... er..... could someone explain this to me?
BTW, I know there are some issues with the RAW Karmagen rules in RC, particularly with Attribute x 3 cost. However, I prefer to keep things as RAW as possible. So unless there is a specific official Catalyst errata, I'll be using the rules as presented in RC. Thanks.
Full Version: Karmagen Metatype cost
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Jun 24 2010, 11:54 PM) 
Ok, I know this will seem completely stupid to some people... but could someone please explain how Metatype works using the standard RAW Runner's Companion Karmagen rules?
I've always used the BP system in SR4 and SR4A up till now, and the priority chargen in previous versions. However, I might be running a game soon and some players are interested in Karmagen.
After reading the rules presented on Pages 41 and 42... it doesn't seem to compute in my head, especially after doing a search on Karmagen here on dumpshock and reading various posts about it.
In RC, it says that Metatype costs nothing... but then you still start at minimum attribute ratings for your metatype. This just seems like free points, not to mention other metatype features that they get.
Yet I've read posts where some say it just costs the same karma as it costs in BP, and other posts where they say it's BP x 2.
So..... er..... could someone explain this to me?
BTW, I know there are some issues with the RAW Karmagen rules in RC, particularly with Attribute x 3 cost. However, I prefer to keep things as RAW as possible. So unless there is a specific official Catalyst errata, I'll be using the rules as presented in RC. Thanks.
I've always used the BP system in SR4 and SR4A up till now, and the priority chargen in previous versions. However, I might be running a game soon and some players are interested in Karmagen.
After reading the rules presented on Pages 41 and 42... it doesn't seem to compute in my head, especially after doing a search on Karmagen here on dumpshock and reading various posts about it.
In RC, it says that Metatype costs nothing... but then you still start at minimum attribute ratings for your metatype. This just seems like free points, not to mention other metatype features that they get.
Yet I've read posts where some say it just costs the same karma as it costs in BP, and other posts where they say it's BP x 2.
So..... er..... could someone explain this to me?
BTW, I know there are some issues with the RAW Karmagen rules in RC, particularly with Attribute x 3 cost. However, I prefer to keep things as RAW as possible. So unless there is a specific official Catalyst errata, I'll be using the rules as presented in RC. Thanks.
Currently race is free in karmagen, the errata for RC will most likely(based on writer comments) change that to BP-cost in karma as well implementing the new karmacosts from SR4A.
But thats assuming we actually get that errate sometime, concidering that Augmentation errata is still unrelesed, i would except it any time soon.
The original intent was that the cost of having to raise your attributes from 1 to your racial limits (be they minimum or maximum) offset the cost for the race itself. So instead of spending X karma to play a troll, you have to spend Y karma just to get your Body and Strength score up to the minimum of 5 each. If you wanted to go higher than that, the karma cost skyrockets. Trolls are a problem no matter how you slice them; their costs are stupid expensive in the Karma system even with the pay-for-race and attributes-cost-x5 "fixes."
Anyway, the problem is that not everyone builds their characters so that they have phenomenally. If you're going to build a human with Body and Strength 5, there's little incentive to not just make him a troll and give him exactly the same stats. Your total karma cost is identical. The only difference is that you''d be getting free armor, reach, and thermographic vision instead of a +1 to Edge.
It gets even worse if you apply those principles to some of the newer options in the Runner's Companion. Take a Free Spirit for instance. There's 0 cost there, and you only have one attribute to buy. That leaves a ridiculous amount of points leftover to do whatever you want with them.
Anyway, the problem is that not everyone builds their characters so that they have phenomenally. If you're going to build a human with Body and Strength 5, there's little incentive to not just make him a troll and give him exactly the same stats. Your total karma cost is identical. The only difference is that you''d be getting free armor, reach, and thermographic vision instead of a +1 to Edge.
It gets even worse if you apply those principles to some of the newer options in the Runner's Companion. Take a Free Spirit for instance. There's 0 cost there, and you only have one attribute to buy. That leaves a ridiculous amount of points leftover to do whatever you want with them.
Thank you for the quick replies everyone!
So I was reading it correctly the first time then.... hmmm.
Well, Karmagen is out then. At least in any game I run. It could work, but as has been mentioned by many others.... it requires a lot of houseruling, and even then there are balance issues.
So I was reading it correctly the first time then.... hmmm.
Well, Karmagen is out then. At least in any game I run. It could work, but as has been mentioned by many others.... it requires a lot of houseruling, and even then there are balance issues.
In my experience, karmagen results in far too many elfs if you don't make a dude toss in for karma = bp.
If someone wants to play a Troll, they're generally not going to do so on a whim.
If someone wants to play a Troll, they're generally not going to do so on a whim.
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Jun 25 2010, 12:26 AM)
Thank you for the quick replies everyone!
So I was reading it correctly the first time then.... hmmm.
Well, Karmagen is out then. At least in any game I run. It could work, but as has been mentioned by many others.... it requires a lot of houseruling, and even then there are balance issues.
So I was reading it correctly the first time then.... hmmm.
Well, Karmagen is out then. At least in any game I run. It could work, but as has been mentioned by many others.... it requires a lot of houseruling, and even then there are balance issues.
I wouldn't be so quick to discard karmagen as IMO it's the best chargen system for SR and just applaying the changes i listed to be likely in errate brings the power level of character way down.
Also it's not like BP-gen is in anyway balanced either.
The few problems with race aside (most of which can be fixed with house rules; the easiest being adjusting their base costs and then simply turning their min/max ratings into flat out bonuses like they used to be), I greatly prefer the karma generation system in this edition. Mostly because the other options make skills insanely expensive, and I'm a fan of characters having lots of low-rated skills. Active and Knowledge alike.
And, it's not entirely "house rules" it's just the Karmagen rules from the German edition of Runner's Companion.
And if you think that it's too complicated to increase attributes to x5 and apply karma cost for race, then, lucky you, we've got a superfine excel spreadsheet in the Community Projects section which can keep track of that for you.
And if you think that it's too complicated to increase attributes to x5 and apply karma cost for race, then, lucky you, we've got a superfine excel spreadsheet in the Community Projects section which can keep track of that for you.
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jun 24 2010, 04:50 PM)
And, it's not entirely "house rules" it's just the Karmagen rules from the German edition of Runner's Companion.
And if you think that it's too complicated to increase attributes to x5 and apply karma cost for race, then, lucky you, we've got a superfine excel spreadsheet in the Community Projects section which can keep track of that for you.
And if you think that it's too complicated to increase attributes to x5 and apply karma cost for race, then, lucky you, we've got a superfine excel spreadsheet in the Community Projects section which can keep track of that for you.
Ah..... so the changes that people have mentioned..... attributes costing x5 and karma cost for races being equal to their BP cost (with free attribute points included) are actually a part of the official German edition of Runner's Companion??
I see... I did not realize that, and even if it's the German edition, that's still official. I might rethink my stance then.
We'll see.... I'll look at it more closely and make a few characters to get a feel for it then.
One thing I like is that it allows more diversity of attributes. I've always hated the 200 BP restriction on attributes with the BP system, and was the kind of player in previous editions that almost always took Attributes as Priority A if I could.
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Jun 25 2010, 03:32 AM)
Ah..... so the changes that people have mentioned..... attributes costing x5 and karma cost for races being equal to their BP cost (with free attribute points included) are actually a part of the official German edition of Runner's Companion??
I see... I did not realize that, and even if it's the German edition, that's still official. I might rethink my stance then.
We'll see.... I'll look at it more closely and make a few characters to get a feel for it then.
One thing I like is that it allows more diversity of attributes. I've always hated the 200 BP restriction on attributes with the BP system, and was the kind of player in previous editions that almost always took Attributes as Priority A if I could.
I see... I did not realize that, and even if it's the German edition, that's still official. I might rethink my stance then.
We'll see.... I'll look at it more closely and make a few characters to get a feel for it then.
One thing I like is that it allows more diversity of attributes. I've always hated the 200 BP restriction on attributes with the BP system, and was the kind of player in previous editions that almost always took Attributes as Priority A if I could.
The small changes to the German addition were the ones (I wrote the original Karmagen rules) I had intended as errata for RC.
In fact, I can reproduce the errata right here:
QUOTE
p.41 Karma Character Generation Table
The Karma Cost for Metatype (shapeshifter type, etc.) should be “As BP*.”
The Karma Cost for improving an attribute by 1 should be “New rating x 5.”
p.42 Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The first paragraph should read:
“First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.”
p.42 Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
The second line should read:
“A maximum of 100 Karma may be converted to nuyen in this fashion, or 120 if the character has the Born Rich quality (p.96).”
p.43 Focus Bonding Table
The Karma Cost for weapon foci should be “3 x Force.”
p.43-44 Character Creation Example
Marissa wants to make a new character for the latest Shadowrun campaign, something a little different—a sasquatch street druid called Sacnoth. Her gamemaster tells Marissa that they’re using the Karma-based character generation system, and she has 750 Karma with which to create Sacnoth.
First off, the cost of playing a sasquatch is 40 Karma, reducing Marissa’s total down to 690. Marissa purchases the Magician (Druidic tradition) and Mentor Spirit (Oak) positive qualities for 40 Karma, reducing her total to 650. To buy some more points, Marissa takes the SIN (5 BP version, citizen of the UK) and Incantation Geas negative qualities, bringing her Karma total back up to 680. As a sasquatch, Sacnoth begins with the Uneducated negative quality for no Karma.
Now it’s time for buying attributes. The basic cost for a sasquatch character is 40 BP; this allows Marissa to spend up to 455 Karma (one-half of her starting Karma plus twice the BP cost) on Sacnoth’s attributes. Intuition is of prime importance to druids, so Marissa decides that’s the attribute she wants to max out. Finally, she spends another chunk of points to increase her Body to 8—after all, what’s a sasquatch that can’t take a few hits? The total cost of her attribute increases is 280 Karma, bringing her total down to 400.
As a sasquatch, Marissa’s character starts out with Magic and Edge attributes of 1 and an Essence of 6 ( for now). Sacnoth’s Initiative is derived from adding Reaction and Intuition together, resulting in 8. Marissa increases both Magic and Edge to 3 by spending 25 Karma each, bringing her total Karma down to 350 .
Now Marissa buys Sacnoth’s skills. Starting off with her maximums, Marissa decides Sacnoth will have two rating 5 skills—Assensing and Astral Combat, critical for a dual-natured sasquatch—one rating 3 skill group, Sorcery, and Enchanting 3. The Conjuring group skills Banishing, Binding, and Summoning she buys individually at rating 4 and takes specialties in each of them. That takes care of Sacnoth’s magical skills, so now Marissa rounds her character out with some basics: First Aid 2, Perception 3, Survival 2, Tracking 2, and Unarmed Combat 2 (Subdual +2).
For knowledge and language skills, Marissa starts out with the Perth-Athabaskans Sign Language as Sacnoth’s Native language, and makes the sasquatch fluent in French Sign Language (Jive+2) at rating 4. To reflect the sasquatch’s background (and mindful of his lack of formal education), Marissa takes Botany 3, Druidic Lore 4, Magic Background 3, Medical Theory 3, Astronomy 3, and Sapient Critters 3
After spending the 290 Karma points on skills, Sacnoth has 60 Karma remaining.
Cashing 5 Karma in for nuyen, Marissa uses the 12,500 nuyen to purchase a basic commlink (Meta Link running Vector Xim with a sim module, Virtual Surround Music, a sasquatch-sized monocle with image link, sasquatch-sized headphones, and sasquatch-sized AR Gloves), a handful of linguasofts (English 2, French 2), a shoulder pouch of food and tools (equivalent to two survival kits), and four months of a Low Lifestyle (a sasquatch’s lifestyle costs 30% more than normal). This brings her down to 55 Karma remaining.
Marissa can select up to 6 spells for Sacnoth at 5 Karma each. She chooses Camouflage, Clean Water, Armor, Heal, Stun Bolt, and Nutrition. After this, Marissa just has 25 Karma left.
For contacts, Marissa chooses as Sasquatch Bartender (Connections 2, Loyalty 4) and a Neo-Celt WizKid Gang Member (Connections 1, Loyalty 2). This comes to a total of 22 Karma.
With 3 Karma left, Marissa goes back and converts 1 of them to nuyen to buy a rating 5 magical lodge (a collection of heavy stones carved with ogham letters), and spends the last two points to specialize her Botany skill for Gathering, giving her Botany 3 (Gathering +2).
With all her Karma points spent, Marissa finishes the character by calculating his starting Condition Monitors, answering the Character Quiz, and rolling for his starting nuyen.
The Karma Cost for Metatype (shapeshifter type, etc.) should be “As BP*.”
The Karma Cost for improving an attribute by 1 should be “New rating x 5.”
p.42 Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The first paragraph should read:
“First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.”
p.42 Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
The second line should read:
“A maximum of 100 Karma may be converted to nuyen in this fashion, or 120 if the character has the Born Rich quality (p.96).”
p.43 Focus Bonding Table
The Karma Cost for weapon foci should be “3 x Force.”
p.43-44 Character Creation Example
Marissa wants to make a new character for the latest Shadowrun campaign, something a little different—a sasquatch street druid called Sacnoth. Her gamemaster tells Marissa that they’re using the Karma-based character generation system, and she has 750 Karma with which to create Sacnoth.
First off, the cost of playing a sasquatch is 40 Karma, reducing Marissa’s total down to 690. Marissa purchases the Magician (Druidic tradition) and Mentor Spirit (Oak) positive qualities for 40 Karma, reducing her total to 650. To buy some more points, Marissa takes the SIN (5 BP version, citizen of the UK) and Incantation Geas negative qualities, bringing her Karma total back up to 680. As a sasquatch, Sacnoth begins with the Uneducated negative quality for no Karma.
Now it’s time for buying attributes. The basic cost for a sasquatch character is 40 BP; this allows Marissa to spend up to 455 Karma (one-half of her starting Karma plus twice the BP cost) on Sacnoth’s attributes. Intuition is of prime importance to druids, so Marissa decides that’s the attribute she wants to max out. Finally, she spends another chunk of points to increase her Body to 8—after all, what’s a sasquatch that can’t take a few hits? The total cost of her attribute increases is 280 Karma, bringing her total down to 400.
CODE
Attribute Value Karma Cost
Body 8 75
Agility 3 25
Reaction 2 10
Strength 5 0
Charisma 3 25
Intuition 6 75
Logic 3 25
Willpower 4 45
TOTAL 280
Body 8 75
Agility 3 25
Reaction 2 10
Strength 5 0
Charisma 3 25
Intuition 6 75
Logic 3 25
Willpower 4 45
TOTAL 280
As a sasquatch, Marissa’s character starts out with Magic and Edge attributes of 1 and an Essence of 6 ( for now). Sacnoth’s Initiative is derived from adding Reaction and Intuition together, resulting in 8. Marissa increases both Magic and Edge to 3 by spending 25 Karma each, bringing her total Karma down to 350 .
Now Marissa buys Sacnoth’s skills. Starting off with her maximums, Marissa decides Sacnoth will have two rating 5 skills—Assensing and Astral Combat, critical for a dual-natured sasquatch—one rating 3 skill group, Sorcery, and Enchanting 3. The Conjuring group skills Banishing, Binding, and Summoning she buys individually at rating 4 and takes specialties in each of them. That takes care of Sacnoth’s magical skills, so now Marissa rounds her character out with some basics: First Aid 2, Perception 3, Survival 2, Tracking 2, and Unarmed Combat 2 (Subdual +2).
For knowledge and language skills, Marissa starts out with the Perth-Athabaskans Sign Language as Sacnoth’s Native language, and makes the sasquatch fluent in French Sign Language (Jive+2) at rating 4. To reflect the sasquatch’s background (and mindful of his lack of formal education), Marissa takes Botany 3, Druidic Lore 4, Magic Background 3, Medical Theory 3, Astronomy 3, and Sapient Critters 3
CODE
Skill Karma Cost
Assensing 5 32
Astral Combat 5 32
Astronomy 3 7
Banishing 4 (Plant Spirits +2) 24
Binding 4 (Plant Spirits +2) 24
Botany 3 7
Druidic Lore 4 11
Enchanting 3 14
First Aid 2 8
French Sign Language 4 (Jive +2) 13
Magic Background 3 7
Medical Theory 3 7
Perception 3 14
Perkins-Athabaskan N 0
Sapient Critters 3 7
Sorcery Group 3 35
Summoning 4 (Plant Spirits +2) 24
Survival 2 8
Tracking 2 8
Unarmed Combat 2 (Subdual +2) 8
TOTAL 290
Assensing 5 32
Astral Combat 5 32
Astronomy 3 7
Banishing 4 (Plant Spirits +2) 24
Binding 4 (Plant Spirits +2) 24
Botany 3 7
Druidic Lore 4 11
Enchanting 3 14
First Aid 2 8
French Sign Language 4 (Jive +2) 13
Magic Background 3 7
Medical Theory 3 7
Perception 3 14
Perkins-Athabaskan N 0
Sapient Critters 3 7
Sorcery Group 3 35
Summoning 4 (Plant Spirits +2) 24
Survival 2 8
Tracking 2 8
Unarmed Combat 2 (Subdual +2) 8
TOTAL 290
After spending the 290 Karma points on skills, Sacnoth has 60 Karma remaining.
Cashing 5 Karma in for nuyen, Marissa uses the 12,500 nuyen to purchase a basic commlink (Meta Link running Vector Xim with a sim module, Virtual Surround Music, a sasquatch-sized monocle with image link, sasquatch-sized headphones, and sasquatch-sized AR Gloves), a handful of linguasofts (English 2, French 2), a shoulder pouch of food and tools (equivalent to two survival kits), and four months of a Low Lifestyle (a sasquatch’s lifestyle costs 30% more than normal). This brings her down to 55 Karma remaining.
Marissa can select up to 6 spells for Sacnoth at 5 Karma each. She chooses Camouflage, Clean Water, Armor, Heal, Stun Bolt, and Nutrition. After this, Marissa just has 25 Karma left.
For contacts, Marissa chooses as Sasquatch Bartender (Connections 2, Loyalty 4) and a Neo-Celt WizKid Gang Member (Connections 1, Loyalty 2). This comes to a total of 22 Karma.
With 3 Karma left, Marissa goes back and converts 1 of them to nuyen to buy a rating 5 magical lodge (a collection of heavy stones carved with ogham letters), and spends the last two points to specialize her Botany skill for Gathering, giving her Botany 3 (Gathering +2).
With all her Karma points spent, Marissa finishes the character by calculating his starting Condition Monitors, answering the Character Quiz, and rolling for his starting nuyen.
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Jun 25 2010, 10:32 AM)
One thing I like is that it allows more diversity of attributes. I've always hated the 200 BP restriction on attributes with the BP system, and was the kind of player in previous editions that almost always took Attributes as Priority A if I could.
There is a restriction on attributes with the karma gen system as well. Comparitively the restriction in karmagen is worse, the attribute limitation in karmagen applies to special attributes as well, with variable caps according to racial costs. That forces Awakened and Emerged people to spread their limited karma over more attributes.
And RAW karmagen has no free Knowledge skills.
Thus the best min-max approach (without house rules) using karma(even using the German RC Race cost and x5 attribute karma) would be to pump Attributes and Active Skills, perhaps 2 Knowledge skills at 5 or 1 Knowledge skill at 6. I would also say that being either Awakened or Emerged is less attractive in karma gen. Orks are a good combat race while Elves are better at being all rounded.
Wow... thank you AH. Thank was extraordinarily helpful, especially the Character Creation example.
That's also amazing that you wrote and designed the original system and that I could get a comment directly from you on dumpshock.
Excuse my ignorance of the present state of affairs at Catalyst and of the Shadowrun line... but can we expect this errata for the English edition sometime soon?
I have to admit.... I haven't been on the dumpshock forums for ages..... I registered years ago, and occasionally pop in, but again... it's been years.
Just recently I had some friends express interest in Shadowrun, so I started digging into my books again and decided to check in here again. But since logging on, I get the vibe that some things have been shaken up recently at Catalyst.
Without getting into the nitty gritty.... is it true you aren't writing for them anymore AH?
That's also amazing that you wrote and designed the original system and that I could get a comment directly from you on dumpshock.
Excuse my ignorance of the present state of affairs at Catalyst and of the Shadowrun line... but can we expect this errata for the English edition sometime soon?
I have to admit.... I haven't been on the dumpshock forums for ages..... I registered years ago, and occasionally pop in, but again... it's been years.
Just recently I had some friends express interest in Shadowrun, so I started digging into my books again and decided to check in here again. But since logging on, I get the vibe that some things have been shaken up recently at Catalyst.
Without getting into the nitty gritty.... is it true you aren't writing for them anymore AH?
QUOTE (Ravennus @ Jun 25 2010, 03:49 AM)
Excuse my ignorance of the present state of affairs at Catalyst and of the Shadowrun line... but can we expect this errata for the English edition sometime soon?
I really couldn't say.
QUOTE
Without getting into the nitty gritty.... is it true you aren't writing for them anymore AH?
This is correctumundo.
Damn... that's too bad... you've always seemed to have an excellent grasp of game mechanics, which is amazing in a writer who also was great at the fiction/flavor side of things. 
Not to mention, you've usually been very communicative on dumpshock and are usually quick on the draw to answer questions. Oh well, at least we still have you here! (and it's great to see familiar faces even after being gone from the dumpshock forums for years, lol)
So are there any other games you are currently freelancing for?
Not to mention, you've usually been very communicative on dumpshock and are usually quick on the draw to answer questions. Oh well, at least we still have you here! (and it's great to see familiar faces even after being gone from the dumpshock forums for years, lol)
So are there any other games you are currently freelancing for?
Not at the moment, no.
Whatever I wrote was allready mentioned Up there
with a German Dance(maybe a Schuhplattler
)
Medicineman
with a German Dance(maybe a Schuhplattler
)Medicineman
So, AH, what's the point of playing as Human, since you may spend less points in stats than everyone else? Or after choosing your race you still have to spend karma to reach the minimum value?
An Elf for instance: it would cost 30 karma to play as one. He might spent 435 karma in attributes but must spend 10 karma in Agility 2 and 25 karma in Charisma 3, is that correct or I'm getting it wrong?
An Elf for instance: it would cost 30 karma to play as one. He might spent 435 karma in attributes but must spend 10 karma in Agility 2 and 25 karma in Charisma 3, is that correct or I'm getting it wrong?
Well I imagine its that even though your stats aren't as high you would get even more skills and contacts. You aren't paying for your metatype and you aren't paying a premium to reach a higher attribute.
Edit: I don't think you pay to reach the metatype baseline stats compared to human baseline stats. Its like with the BP build, thats just where they start. To use your example elves just start with 2 Agility and 3 Charisma, you don't pay anything beyond the Metatype cost to have that)
Edit: I don't think you pay to reach the metatype baseline stats compared to human baseline stats. Its like with the BP build, thats just where they start. To use your example elves just start with 2 Agility and 3 Charisma, you don't pay anything beyond the Metatype cost to have that)
QUOTE (Caelwyn @ Jun 25 2010, 07:35 AM)
Well I imagine its that even though your stats aren't as high you would get even more skills and contacts. You aren't paying for your metatype and you aren't paying a premium to reach a higher attribute.
Edit: I don't think you pay to reach the metatype baseline stats compared to human baseline stats. Its like with the BP build, thats just where they start. To use your example elves just start with 2 Agility and 3 Charisma, you don't pay anything beyond the Metatype cost to have that)
Edit: I don't think you pay to reach the metatype baseline stats compared to human baseline stats. Its like with the BP build, thats just where they start. To use your example elves just start with 2 Agility and 3 Charisma, you don't pay anything beyond the Metatype cost to have that)
And you look like 75% of the rest of the population. There is a disadvantage to being 9 feet tall, orange, and having 4 arms, regardless of what game mechanic advantage you get from that combo.
In my optinion, fitting in with the crowd is one of the bigest advantages of being human.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 25 2010, 08:14 AM)
So, AH, what's the point of playing as Human, since you may spend less points in stats than everyone else? Or after choosing your race you still have to spend karma to reach the minimum value?
An Elf for instance: it would cost 30 karma to play as one. He might spent 435 karma in attributes but must spend 10 karma in Agility 2 and 25 karma in Charisma 3, is that correct or I'm getting it wrong?
An Elf for instance: it would cost 30 karma to play as one. He might spent 435 karma in attributes but must spend 10 karma in Agility 2 and 25 karma in Charisma 3, is that correct or I'm getting it wrong?
Wrong
You simply spent 30 Karma for being an Elf and you start with AGI 2 and CHA 3
Raising it like usual according to the Karma Rules (Raising your CHA to 4 is 4x5=20 Karma).You may spend 375 & 30 Pts for your Attributes.
Hough!
Medicineman
Was it intended for Karmagen to include special attributes in the attribute spending cap, or was that a minor slip of the cursor?
It was apparently intended.
But to be fair, it was intended by someone who's often shown a weak understanding of the rules and what they represent within the context of the rest of the rules and the setting itself. Best to ignore that bit and stick with the BP system's limitation, assuming you feel the need to use a limitation at all.
But to be fair, it was intended by someone who's often shown a weak understanding of the rules and what they represent within the context of the rest of the rules and the setting itself. Best to ignore that bit and stick with the BP system's limitation, assuming you feel the need to use a limitation at all.
Doc Funk and I have our occasional differences of opinion. The limitation on special attributes was deliberate in order to cultivate less powerful, more diverse characters. Since there is always some way to min-max the system, the ideal is to design the system so that min-maxing doesn't break it...and, well, mixed results.
The only thing it does is make it so mages and technomancers are crippled in their other attributes for no actual reason other than because of 'just cuz." They already have to blow Karma on tons of other things that keep them balanced enough. There's no reason to introduce such an arbitrary limitation on them during character creation. If they intentionally want to cripple their magical abilities by improving their other attributes, they should be free to do so. Just like they should be free to do the exact opposite. In no way does it create balance, nor does it stem off min-maxing by any stretch of the imagination. Where you get that notion from is beyond me.
Like I said, difference of opinion. Low-level attributes are effectively cheaper in Karmagen than in BPgen.
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jun 25 2010, 09:58 AM)
Wrong
You simply spent 30 Karma for being an Elf and you start with AGI 2 and CHA 3
Raising it like usual according to the Karma Rules (Raising your CHA to 4 is 4x5=20 Karma).You may spend 375 & 30 Pts for your Attributes.
Hough!
Medicineman
You simply spent 30 Karma for being an Elf and you start with AGI 2 and CHA 3
Raising it like usual according to the Karma Rules (Raising your CHA to 4 is 4x5=20 Karma).You may spend 375 & 30 Pts for your Attributes.
Hough!
Medicineman
So, besides looking like half of the world's population, what is the benefit of playing as Human with karmagen?
It's an honest question.
Free feat at 1st level? Wait....
Under karmagen, do they still start with 2 edge, making them still the only race that gets something for nothing?
Under karmagen, do they still start with 2 edge, making them still the only race that gets something for nothing?
Humans receive a +1 to Edge as a racial trait. It's not an adjustment to their min/max ratings.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 25 2010, 12:08 PM)
So, besides looking like half of the world's population, what is the benefit of playing as Human with karmagen?
It's an honest question.
It's an honest question.
Hmmmmm,well,
I'm not really sure if there is a benefit in Karmagen,might even be none in it.
There is a lot that speaks for playing a Human in SR,but its got nothing to do with the Karmageneration or the BP System.
What is the benefit of playing a Nightone or an Oni in Karmagen (or in BP for that matter ?)
Do You only play a Char if there is a benefit ?
with a beneficial Dance
Medicineman
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 25 2010, 09:40 AM)
Humans receive a +1 to Edge as a racial trait. It's not an adjustment to their min/max ratings.
Incorrect.
QUOTE (SR4a pg82)
Edge
Improving a character’s Edge costs 10 BP per +1 increase (25 BP for
raising it to its natural maximum). The metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans).
Improving a character’s Edge costs 10 BP per +1 increase (25 BP for
raising it to its natural maximum). The metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans).
Then I guess they can secretly start with an Edge of 8, because they do, in fact, get a +1 to Edge as their racial trait. "Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge" p. 81, same book.
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 25 2010, 01:07 PM)
Then I guess they can secretly start with an Edge of 8, because they do, in fact, get a +1 to Edge as their racial trait. "Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge" p. 81, same book.
Is that some Kind of special American Humour ?
because I don't get It.To me it Reads like the Start of a Rant ....
But maybe I'm misunderstanding something
with a clarifying Dance
Medicineman
I'm just saying they don't have an Edge attribute of 2/7. They have a +1 to Edge as a racial bonus, just like Trolls get +1 to Reach or Elves get Low Light Vision. Their min/max is 1/6 like everyone else; they just get to add +1 to it when they're done buying it.
I'm just saying they don't have an Edge attribute of 2/7.
But that is exactly what Humans have !
they Start with an Edge of 2 ,to Raise it to 3 it costs the usual 3x5 =15 Karma
HokaHey
Medicineman
But that is exactly what Humans have !
they Start with an Edge of 2 ,to Raise it to 3 it costs the usual 3x5 =15 Karma
HokaHey
Medicineman
No. The +1 bonus to Edge is a special ability of Humans. It is not an Edge minimum/maximum of 2/7. If it were, that's what would be listed on the chart. They get a +1 bonus to Edge. Not an Edge of 2 that they can raise to 7 like, say, an Elf's Agility attribute. If it were, yet again, that's what would be listed on the chart.
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 25 2010, 11:15 AM)
No. The +1 bonus to Edge is a special ability of Humans. It is not an Edge minimum/maximum of 2/7. If it were, that's what would be listed on the chart. They get a +1 bonus to Edge. Not an Edge of 2 that they can raise to 7 like, say, an Elf's Agility attribute. If it were, yet again, that's what would be listed on the chart.
Are you being blind, or just ornery? The rule I cited above specifically DECLARES the human max edge attribute is *7*. Explicitly.
No, it says that's the max rating during character creation courtesy of their +1 bonus. At no point does it state a change to their Attribute Minimum, Attribute Maximum, or Augmented Maximum for Edge. I can show you two separate tables that actually do specifically state that they simply get a +1 to Edge as opposed to an altered rating range. Those charts are SR4A p. 81 and RC p. 70.
That's two separate tables, printed at different times, and one of which carried through to a whole new revision of the main source book. Just to drive the point home, here's the actual excerpt from those three charts:
As opposed to, say, an entry like this one.
Notice how the Ork doesn't have a +3 to Body or +2 to Strength? Yeah, there's a reason for that: Except in the singular case of Humans, none of the base metatypes gain bonuses to their any of their attributes. This is a unique trait of being a Human, as clearly shown on the table. Are you blind or just ornery because it's different than what you've been assuming all this time?
If anything's wrong, it's that one little line of text you referenced. And instead of necessarily bbeing wrong, that line of text means that Humans can actually start with an Edge of 8 without any special qualities or outside help. A purchased maximum of 7, +1. (Which is hogwash.)
That's two separate tables, printed at different times, and one of which carried through to a whole new revision of the main source book. Just to drive the point home, here's the actual excerpt from those three charts:
CODE
BP Metatype BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL INI
0 Human 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 2/12(18)
Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge
0 Human 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 2/12(18)
Human Metatype Abilities: +1 Edge
As opposed to, say, an entry like this one.
CODE
BP Metatype BOD AGI REA STR CHA INT LOG WIL INI
20 Ork 4/9(13) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 3/8(12) 1/5(7) 1/6(9) 1/5(7) 1/6(9) 2/12(18)
Ork Metatype Abilities: Low-Light Vision
20 Ork 4/9(13) 1/6(9) 1/6(9) 3/8(12) 1/5(7) 1/6(9) 1/5(7) 1/6(9) 2/12(18)
Ork Metatype Abilities: Low-Light Vision
Notice how the Ork doesn't have a +3 to Body or +2 to Strength? Yeah, there's a reason for that: Except in the singular case of Humans, none of the base metatypes gain bonuses to their any of their attributes. This is a unique trait of being a Human, as clearly shown on the table. Are you blind or just ornery because it's different than what you've been assuming all this time?
If anything's wrong, it's that one little line of text you referenced. And instead of necessarily bbeing wrong, that line of text means that Humans can actually start with an Edge of 8 without any special qualities or outside help. A purchased maximum of 7, +1. (Which is hogwash.)
Yeah, uh, scratch, you're full of it.
In your table, if Edge were a statline next to initiative, humans -would read- 2/7, just like every other race with a stat bonus. Unfortunately, special attributes don't have a table.
What you are arguing, essentially, is that that Ork in your example does not get low-light vision.
He gets low light vision, but when you look at the relevant section of the book that -says- what that metatype ability does, it somehow magically vanishes and randomly doesn't apply.
The human entry -says- it gets +1 edge, and elaborates on the conditions of it later. It also explicitly says "The metatype maximum for Edge, is 6 (7 for humans)."
Not 'metatype maximum during character creation'. Unless you're magically going to argue that natural and augmented maximum limits disappear as soon as the game begins, because that's not the case.
But yeah, you're wrong. Just think of human's edgeboost as Metagenetic Improvement (edge). Raises the min and max by 1.
In your table, if Edge were a statline next to initiative, humans -would read- 2/7, just like every other race with a stat bonus. Unfortunately, special attributes don't have a table.
What you are arguing, essentially, is that that Ork in your example does not get low-light vision.
He gets low light vision, but when you look at the relevant section of the book that -says- what that metatype ability does, it somehow magically vanishes and randomly doesn't apply.
The human entry -says- it gets +1 edge, and elaborates on the conditions of it later. It also explicitly says "The metatype maximum for Edge, is 6 (7 for humans)."
Not 'metatype maximum during character creation'. Unless you're magically going to argue that natural and augmented maximum limits disappear as soon as the game begins, because that's not the case.
But yeah, you're wrong. Just think of human's edgeboost as Metagenetic Improvement (edge). Raises the min and max by 1.
Really.
Show me where it states that a Human's Edge starts at 2 and its Augmented Maximum is 10 then. I'd even be happy if you could show me where it tells you when to apply that +1 to Edge. Which, again, is "+1 Edge," not "+1 to Edge's minimums and maximums." I'll be waiting quietly over here while you do so.
Show me where it states that a Human's Edge starts at 2 and its Augmented Maximum is 10 then. I'd even be happy if you could show me where it tells you when to apply that +1 to Edge. Which, again, is "+1 Edge," not "+1 to Edge's minimums and maximums." I'll be waiting quietly over here while you do so.
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jun 25 2010, 01:45 PM)
Hmmmmm,well,
I'm not really sure if there is a benefit in Karmagen,might even be none in it.
There is a lot that speaks for playing a Human in SR,but its got nothing to do with the Karmageneration or the BP System.
I'm not really sure if there is a benefit in Karmagen,might even be none in it.
There is a lot that speaks for playing a Human in SR,but its got nothing to do with the Karmageneration or the BP System.
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jun 25 2010, 01:45 PM)
What is the benefit of playing a Nightone or an Oni in Karmagen (or in BP for that matter ?)
Do You only play a Char if there is a benefit ?
with a beneficial Dance
Medicineman
Do You only play a Char if there is a benefit ?
with a beneficial Dance
Medicineman
As they are right now? None, they are extremely easy to spot (unless playing as Oni on Japan, Korea or anywhere with heavy Japanese population) and they cost more than a SURGED main metahuman strain for the same ability.
It is as someone said, if you want to make sacrifices for the sake of coolness, roleplay, whatever, fine...
But in this case humans really get the short stick, not only the other races start with higher stats, they may spend even more points in these stats...
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 25 2010, 04:14 PM)
Really.
Show me where it states that a Human's Edge starts at 2 and its Augmented Maximum is 10 then. I'd even be happy if you could show me where it tells you when to apply that +1 to Edge. Which, again, is "+1 Edge," not "+1 to Edge's minimums and maximums." I'll be waiting quietly over here while you do so.
Show me where it states that a Human's Edge starts at 2 and its Augmented Maximum is 10 then. I'd even be happy if you could show me where it tells you when to apply that +1 to Edge. Which, again, is "+1 Edge," not "+1 to Edge's minimums and maximums." I'll be waiting quietly over here while you do so.
So, by your reckoning, a human buying 6 in Edge is wasting his points, since the book also states you cannot exceed your maximum edge.
QUOTE (SR4a pg. 74)
Note that you may never have more Edge points than your full Edge attribute—luck
only counts if you use it.
only counts if you use it.
And just in case you missed it, I'll bold it for you.
QUOTE (SR4a pg. 82)
Edge
Improving a character’s Edge costs 10 BP per +1 increase (25 BP for
raising it to its natural maximum). The metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans).
Improving a character’s Edge costs 10 BP per +1 increase (25 BP for
raising it to its natural maximum). The metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans).
QUOTE (Gamer6432 @ Jun 26 2010, 01:30 AM)
So, by your reckoning, a human buying 6 in Edge is wasting his points, since the book also states you cannot exceed your maximum edge.
QUOTE ((SR4a pg. 74))
Note that you may never have more Edge points than your full Edge attribute—luck
only counts if you use it.
only counts if you use it.
Unless a Great Dragon enters the stage.
---
@ Human Edge:
QUOTE ((SR4a pg. 79))
Lucky
This quality allows a character to possess an Edge attribute one point higher than his metatype maximum. (For example, a human character could raise his Edge to 8.) [...]
This quality allows a character to possess an Edge attribute one point higher than his metatype maximum. (For example, a human character could raise his Edge to 8.) [...]
And spezial attributes do not have an augmented maximum!
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 25 2010, 09:52 PM)
Notice how the Ork doesn't have a +3 to Body or +2 to Strength? Yeah, there's a reason for that:
Yeah and the reason for that is that the table actually has an entry for those stats and doesnt have one for edge, so that had to be listed seperatly.
And becouse you'rr apparently completly blind and missed these in page 82 of SR4A and page 73 of the original BBB
QUOTE
Characters also start with
a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans)
a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans)
and
QUOTE
metatype maximum for Edge
is 6 (7 for humans)
is 6 (7 for humans)
Can you finnally agree that your wrong or do you need even more proof.
SR4A p82 Under "Purchase Attributes"
All characters start with the minimum attributes as noted for their metatype on the Metatype Attribute Table (as Funk showed us). Characters also start with a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans), and a value of 0 in Magic and Resonance. Initiative is a derived value and is not calculated until after attribute values have been finalized.
It is right there saying to change the human's attribute minimum for Edge to 2. Later on it elaborates on the maximums for Edge of 6 for metatypes and 7 for humans. It's not on the table but it clearly spelled out the maximums and minimums for human's Edge.
All characters start with the minimum attributes as noted for their metatype on the Metatype Attribute Table (as Funk showed us). Characters also start with a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans), and a value of 0 in Magic and Resonance. Initiative is a derived value and is not calculated until after attribute values have been finalized.
It is right there saying to change the human's attribute minimum for Edge to 2. Later on it elaborates on the maximums for Edge of 6 for metatypes and 7 for humans. It's not on the table but it clearly spelled out the maximums and minimums for human's Edge.
To OP:
Short of severe house ruling, karmagen as published (even the german version) is broken.
As others have pointed out... why bother EVER taking a human... when you can take Orc and give it human looking and still come out massively ahead in stats. All those 'discounts' that humans are supposed to get all the other races get as well (and they pay no penalties for penalized attributes). The balancing factor completely fails to balance if the orc/troll/whatever simply doesn't buy up their racial stats but instead spends them like a human elsewhere and takes the freebie points to the bank.
My houserule suggestion to keep it simple (KISS).
Have ALL character buy all attributes up from 1 (then up to 6). Then afterwards apply karma cost for race == to BP cost. Then apply all attribute mods positive and negative of that template to the character in the same way as if they were cyber/bio.
This means that it costs the same for a troll w/ average stats as it does for a human w/ average stats (not including the racial kicker cost which gains things like armor/reach/thermo vision, and some much higher than human attribute caps). No 'special' rules then allowing metas to spend more on attributes than non-metas (even when they don't use them to buff up above average stats).
EG: Average Orc...
225 karma == 3's in everything including edge.
20 karma == ork racial template.
Final Stats: Bo:3(6), Ag:3,Rea:3, Str:3(5),Cha:3(2),Int:3,Log:3(2),Wil:3, Edg:3
Any further advancements to stats are bought normally.. IE: 20 karma to raise base bod from 3->4(7), or 20 karma to raise from Cha 3(2) -> 4(3).
You can also see, that leaves a lot of room in karma to add special stat like magic, or raise other stats up a bit while still sliding under the 375 half-karma limit. (perfectly average still left 150 karma to spend on attributes).
Short of severe house ruling, karmagen as published (even the german version) is broken.
As others have pointed out... why bother EVER taking a human... when you can take Orc and give it human looking and still come out massively ahead in stats. All those 'discounts' that humans are supposed to get all the other races get as well (and they pay no penalties for penalized attributes). The balancing factor completely fails to balance if the orc/troll/whatever simply doesn't buy up their racial stats but instead spends them like a human elsewhere and takes the freebie points to the bank.
My houserule suggestion to keep it simple (KISS).
Have ALL character buy all attributes up from 1 (then up to 6). Then afterwards apply karma cost for race == to BP cost. Then apply all attribute mods positive and negative of that template to the character in the same way as if they were cyber/bio.
This means that it costs the same for a troll w/ average stats as it does for a human w/ average stats (not including the racial kicker cost which gains things like armor/reach/thermo vision, and some much higher than human attribute caps). No 'special' rules then allowing metas to spend more on attributes than non-metas (even when they don't use them to buff up above average stats).
EG: Average Orc...
225 karma == 3's in everything including edge.
20 karma == ork racial template.
Final Stats: Bo:3(6), Ag:3,Rea:3, Str:3(5),Cha:3(2),Int:3,Log:3(2),Wil:3, Edg:3
Any further advancements to stats are bought normally.. IE: 20 karma to raise base bod from 3->4(7), or 20 karma to raise from Cha 3(2) -> 4(3).
You can also see, that leaves a lot of room in karma to add special stat like magic, or raise other stats up a bit while still sliding under the 375 half-karma limit. (perfectly average still left 150 karma to spend on attributes).
QUOTE (tagz @ Jun 25 2010, 08:42 PM)
All characters start with the minimum attributes as noted for their metatype on the Metatype Attribute Table (as Funk showed us). Characters also start with a value of 6 in Essence, 1 in Edge (2 for humans), and a value of 0 in Magic and Resonance. Initiative is a derived value and is not calculated until after attribute values have been finalized.
Most of those references are in regards to the BP system, in which it doesn't matter if you're buying them before or after applying the +1 bonus. At no point, ever, do they say that the Human bonus is a boost to Edge's minimum and maximum ratings. If that were the case, it would be as simple as either adding another column to the table (it's not like there's no room available), OR just listing the ability as "Edge 2/7(10)." Instead, it's specifically listed as +1 Edge in both the core rulebook and the Runner's Companion.
The reference you specifically mention comes from the Karma Generation system... which, to my knowledge, was written by Ancient History. Who, on many, many occasions, has gotten very simple concepts completely screwed up and has manipulated them to suit his vision rather than adhering to the original philosophy. Note that this is the same paragraph that applies the total limit on Physical, Mental, and Special Attributes, too. The whole thing is rife with mistakes and failed judgment calls based, by and large, on a weak understanding of the rules. Which has always been a vulnerability for him. He should stick to fluff. That's what he does well. Let other people handle the rules. Hell, he still doesn't get why the total point limit is a mistake and overly punishing to mages and technomancers alone and no one else, and the current FAQs are a shining example of just how flawed his understanding of the rules (or more specifically, the philosphy behind them) are.
And do you know why? Because it leads to stupid arguments like this one, where the intent is as crystal clear as it comes: "+1 Edge." It doesn't get any simpler than that. Especially since if it did work the way people so desperately want it to work, the exact same word count would have fixed the whole thing up with "Edge 2/7(10)" or even "Edge 2/7" or "Edge 2/7(7)" instead. Though I don't see the point in the latter as there aren't any other Edge augmentations anyway.
Scratch,
Perhaps the reason edge is excluded from the table is the partial purpose of the table is to list the augmented maximum for attributes. If there is no way to augment edge or if there is maximum, that may justify the omission from the table. 2/7(7) might look out of place and possibly even confuse some players.
I don't see any advantage in treating humans' edge bonus as you suggest, particularly when in deviates from how other attributes are handled.
Perhaps the reason edge is excluded from the table is the partial purpose of the table is to list the augmented maximum for attributes. If there is no way to augment edge or if there is maximum, that may justify the omission from the table. 2/7(7) might look out of place and possibly even confuse some players.
I don't see any advantage in treating humans' edge bonus as you suggest, particularly when in deviates from how other attributes are handled.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 25 2010, 09:08 AM)
So, besides looking like half of the world's population, what is the benefit of playing as Human with karmagen?
It's an honest question.
It's an honest question.
To compare the others:
Elves cost 30 Karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 25 compared to a human. They can spend more on Attributes, though, and can raise two of them higher. But Attribute cost increases the higher you go. To get a Charisma of 7 for the elf costs 110 karma, compared to 70 for the human to have a Charisma of 5. So the elf can be better in certain niches, but the human will be more well-rounded. Elves have a bit more room to grow, and don't have any big offsetting disadvantages.
Dwarves cost 25 karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 35 compared to a human. They have the same problem as elves, with higher Attributes costing more. Sure, you can just keep them lower, but overall, choosing dwarf as a metatype has saved you a whopping 10 karma. And dwarves have penalties to reaction, have a lower movement rate, and need some gear specially made for them. Not saying they aren't fun to play, but from a purely min-maxing point of view, not worth it.
Trolls cost 40 Karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 130 compared to a human. You save a lot, point-wise, if you start out with minimal physical stats. But they have serious mental Attribute penalties, and raising Body and Strength becomes almost prohibitively expensive at higher levels (who wants to spend 150 karma to get a Body of 9?). They can still make decent combat types - raising Body and Strength to 7, a decent level, is more feasible (slightly less expensive than a human raising those stats to 5), and augmentations can raise them from there. Or you can make a more cerebrally oriented character (mage, hacker, etc.), quite a deal if you don't mind the lower caps for mental stats. All in all, though, there remain lots of roles that I would find a human to be a better choice for, even if they are not as optimal, purely points-wise. Also, keep in mind that their size can be a problem, and that, like dwarves, they need to have some gear specially modified for them.
Orks cost 20 Karma, and have net Attribute bonuses of 60 compared to a human. Orks don't have the size/special gear problems of trolls, and a Body of 4 and Strength of 3 is right at the sweet spot. Their mental Attribute penalties are not as severe, either. Orks are probably, min-maxing wise, the best option - not noticeably more than in BP, though (where they have a net 20 BP gain, and can buy higher Attributes with a flat cost). To be brutally honest, they are the metatype where you are likeliest to say "I need 20 more points or so to create this character concept - I'll make it an ork!"
Humans remain pretty versatile. Their biggest problem (in karmagen) is that special Attributes being included in the 375 point cap hits them the hardest, because they have no Attribute bonuses and get no extra points to spend on Attributes.
Almost exactly Glyph. The lumping of special attribs in there on top of giving metas more points to spend was a bit too much.
I disagree slightly on the elf vs. human and cost adjustments... as those enhanced attribute caps are very costly if you were human and bought them normally (how many points for enhanced attribute AND the freebie rank in the attribute..). The crux of the problem was the decision to buy stats using karma AFTER the racial mods necesitated higher allowances (there's absolutely no way around it if spent after racial mins). And penalties are only penalties if you intend to raise them to the cap in chargen (or later). For most chars... 3 CHA is perfectly fine... and unlike racial attribute boosts (which raise both cap and the min stat). Penalities only lower the cap... but give the exact same 'discounts' for low stats that humans are supposed to enjoy... effectively they're not really penalized for most people.
An 'average elf' as opposed to an 'average troll' as opposed to an 'average dwarf'.... the point costs should be roughly equivalent (w/ some allowance for racial perks), but they're nowhere close. By average, I mean a 'flat' statline w/ base stats +2 (or +3) across the board for comparison sake.
I disagree slightly on the elf vs. human and cost adjustments... as those enhanced attribute caps are very costly if you were human and bought them normally (how many points for enhanced attribute AND the freebie rank in the attribute..). The crux of the problem was the decision to buy stats using karma AFTER the racial mods necesitated higher allowances (there's absolutely no way around it if spent after racial mins). And penalties are only penalties if you intend to raise them to the cap in chargen (or later). For most chars... 3 CHA is perfectly fine... and unlike racial attribute boosts (which raise both cap and the min stat). Penalities only lower the cap... but give the exact same 'discounts' for low stats that humans are supposed to enjoy... effectively they're not really penalized for most people.
An 'average elf' as opposed to an 'average troll' as opposed to an 'average dwarf'.... the point costs should be roughly equivalent (w/ some allowance for racial perks), but they're nowhere close. By average, I mean a 'flat' statline w/ base stats +2 (or +3) across the board for comparison sake.
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 26 2010, 06:44 AM)
The reference you specifically mention comes from the Karma Generation system... which, to my knowledge, was written by Ancient History. Who, on many, many occasions, has gotten very simple concepts completely screwed up and has manipulated them to suit his vision rather than adhering to the original philosophy. Note that this is the same paragraph that applies the total limit on Physical, Mental, and Special Attributes, too. The whole thing is rife with mistakes and failed judgment calls based, by and large, on a weak understanding of the rules. Which has always been a vulnerability for him. He should stick to fluff. That's what he does well. Let other people handle the rules. Hell, he still doesn't get why the total point limit is a mistake and overly punishing to mages and technomancers alone and no one else, and the current FAQs are a shining example of just how flawed his understanding of the rules (or more specifically, the philosphy behind them) are.
So you really are totally blind or did you just ignore my post on purpose becouse it show that your completdly wrong with page numbered quotes from both the original and anniversary edition of the corebook.
One of those quotes saying exactly what you here blaim being from RC.
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