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SkepticInc
At this point the Shadowrun Space Technology seems to be coming along decently, so it's time to start thinking about the sociological impact of living in orbit or space. How have different corporations handled the psychological problems that crop up when people are confined in a small space for too long? How does the Evo Orbital resort work? Is it a breeding ground for corporate dealings, or do visitors isolate themselves from each other in a bid for calm? How does being sentenced to a lunar mage prison effect the sanity of the inmates?

Does the Transhuman movement exist, and if so, who is part of it? Are there secret cabals of the rich and powerful who are supporting AI emancipation? AI eradication? Supporting the ascendancy of metahumanity in a region where magic is vastly weaker? Are there magical groups working on powerful metamagical techniques to bring bubbles of mana into space so they too can travel amongst the planets? How do Technomancers fair in space?

Who is paying for Shadowrunners to come up the well, and what kind of runners do they hire?

[EDIT] Apologies for the misspelling in the subtitle. I can't find a way to fix it.
BookWyrm
I think this should be the next downloadable-PDF project. A nod to the forgotten "Go LEO!" sourcebook from ages past. It should cover;

-) A brief history of space activity, from the Awakening through the Haliey Comet controversy to 2070.
-) What stations/platforms are up there, including the Zurich-Orbital station.
-) How people get to & from the stations and planet-side (which Aerospace companies' "space-lines" make the trip) and a general idea on how much it costs.
-) Long-term occupancy ("living") in a near-weightless environment and the detremental effects after returning planet-side.
-) Notes on shadowruns in space (and why most people see this line of work as a joke at best, and way too costly at worst).
-) What are the costs to the magically active and Technomancers in Low-Earth Orbit.

It would be a good primer to the much-rumored 'space elevator' plot hinted at in the opening of the Vice sourcebook.
hermit
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How have different corporations handled the psychological problems that crop up when people are confined in a small space for too long?

Very high sums and turning a blind eye towards vices they engage in so long as these do not disrupt the work environment. (T:WL)

QUOTE
How does the Evo Orbital resort work? Is it a breeding ground for corporate dealings, or do visitors isolate themselves from each other in a bid for calm?

I presume it's supposed to be like Freefall station from Neuromancer, just without the Spindle and not run by (n)Janes. Not sure about space cryo ninja being stored there though. The place for quiet and isolation is Zurich Orbital.

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How does being sentenced to a lunar mage prison effect the sanity of the inmates?

It's Azkhaban in space. Guess.

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Does the Transhuman movement exist, and if so, who is part of it?

Yes, there are a couple policlubs pushing the Transhuman agenda (Transhumanist League, Techno Republic). It's pretty much a finge thing though. Aside from cosmetic surgery and useful cyber, few denizens of the 6th world feel like they have to transcend their (meta)humanity. I a world where technology is but one important factor, and the presence of metahumans is a daily reminder of the presence of magic, technology conceivably takes a bit of a backseat when it comes to the human conscience, in favor of the supernaural. (Loose Alliances, Just Compensation)

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Are there secret cabals of the rich and powerful who are supporting AI emancipation?

Unless you count that Wesley of corps, Horizon, no. Well, Evo seems more open to them than most. Many Technomancers seem to like them. Everyone else grudgingly accepts them, and quite a few are actively working on hunting them down, some being more exotic than others - in the German Emergence, the German Catholic Church built an order of Technomancers to hunt down and kill AI. (Unwired, RC, RW, SR4A, Emergence D, et al)

QUOTE
AI eradication?

NEOnet, Renraku, most govenrments and anyone else hurt bad by AI previously, which is a lot of people. Anyone living in geneva. The GCC, and presumably GOD. Interpol. Long, long list. (Unwired, RC, RW, SR4A, Emergence D, et al)

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Supporting the ascendancy of metahumanity in a region where magic is vastly weaker?

None known.

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Are there magical groups working on powerful metamagical techniques to bring bubbles of mana into space so they too can travel amongst the planets?

Unknown. Since Netherwalking - opening portals via the planes to other places, a forgotten metamagic - at least theoretically works on other planets, a stargate solution would be more appealing to mages, should anyone at least formulate the theory of it again. (Earthdawn, speculation)

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How do Technomancers fair in space?

Unknown. Being in essence mages with all the fun and none of the drag, I'd suspect they'd thrive and get some wacko bonus, at least if they follow TM rules design philosophy in SR4.

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Who is paying for Shadowrunners to come up the well, and what kind of runners do they hire?

Few.

Fringe groups looking to infiltrate space stations are a possibility, as are corps for a space borne rount in the old sabotage game. A wealthy individual might hire runners for bodyguards and/or datasteals onto Shibanokuji holiday space station. A government agency might hire a runner to infiltrate a corp station. That kind of stuff. Bounty hunters might be sent up to retrieve refugees from orbit, or runners are to bust someone from an orbital max sec prison.

All of it would be seriously high profile and long term. All of it would be very extraordinary jobs. None of it would even remotely cater to 'street' types. Trolls and varaiants thereof need not apply. (TW)
Tzeentch
QUOTE (BookWyrm @ Jun 26 2010, 09:23 PM) *
-) How people get to & from the stations and planet-side (which Aerospace companies' "space-lines" make the trip) and a general idea on how much it costs.

-- Strangely, I cannot find any costs for this stuff. I assume that it's still so high that shadowrunners are expected to have a corp fund their trip up the gravity well.
QUOTE
-) Long-term occupancy ("living") in a near-weightless environment and the detremental effects after returning planet-side.

-- The costs for some of the treatment nano and chemtech are so low that things like Slab, Oxyrush, and augmented healing are parts of your benefits package and standar kit. Even Radiation Tolerance is cheap enough to be standard to anyone where it might be an issue.
QUOTE
-) What are the costs to the magically active and Technomancers in Low-Earth Orbit.

-- Technomancers shouldn't have any particular issues aside from the fact that space facilities are not necessarily part of the Matrix full-time.
-- Most space workers are going to be riggers for the most part, with the area around their workshacks constituting a LAN.
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It would be a good primer to the much-rumored 'space elevator' plot hinted at in the opening of the Vice sourcebook.

-- The books can't decide if its an elevator or a skyhook smile.gif
Tzeentch
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 26 2010, 09:46 PM) *
It's Azkhaban in space. Guess.

-- Well not quite. The rules don't match the fluff here very well, as all but the most powerful (6+ level initiates) have 0 Magic in space and thus can't even project into the astral to suffer the ill effects. So the biggest psychological effect is that they are reduced to being mundanes.
-- If you ignore the rules and go by the fluff the prisoners are probably just sitting in custom VR simulations on lockdown -- the space part is just to keep them from doing anything crazy if they get out of the prison simulation. Having criminals wandering around a space station is not wise unless they are basically exiled, but trusted not to kill a bunch of people by sabotage.
hermit
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-- Well not quite. The rules don't match the fluff here very well, as all but the most powerful (6+ level initiates) have 0 Magic in space and thus can't even project into the astral to suffer the ill effects. So the biggest psychological effect is that they are reduced to being mundanes.

Don't warp make the mages suffer regardless? I admit I am not very familiar with these rules though.

That reduction would also work very well to tie and bind them though.

And those spirits (warp resistant? Moon aspected? Is the moon an aspected domain?) might also give them something to think about.

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-- If you ignore the rules and go by the fluff the prisoners are probably just sitting in custom VR simulations on lockdown -- the space part is just to keep them from doing anything crazy if they get out of the prison simulation. Having criminals wandering around a space station is not wise unless they are basically exiled, but trusted not to kill a bunch of people by sabotage.

True.
SkepticInc
For every generation of despots, there is another generation behind them holding a knife. What do power struggles amongst those who are rich enough to live permanently in orbit look like? If you were of the elite and powerful, watching the powers that be using and abusing leonization, knowing that if those in charge get their way, they will never die and power will never transfer hands? What counterculture groups would be most useful to manipulate? Would finding a way to influence TerraFirst! be worth the investment time and the possibility of your mother's intel agency catching wind of what you were up to? How does a budding Machiavelli make their way in the Sixth World? Sixth Orbit, rather.
hermit
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What do power struggles amongst those who are rich enough to live permanently in orbit look like?

Boring and bitter. Read Corp Shadowfiles, it has a whole chapter on this.

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If you were of the elite and powerful, watching the powers that be using and abusing leonization, knowing that if those in charge get their way, they will never die and power will never transfer hands?

Seriously, read Findley's writeup of the Zurich Orbital crowd in Corp Shadowfiles. However, Leonisation is not limited to orbit dwellers.

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What counterculture groups would be most useful to manipulate? Would finding a way to influence TerraFirst! be worth the investment time and the possibility of your mother's intel agency catching wind of what you were up to? How does a budding Machiavelli make their way in the Sixth World? Sixth Orbit, rather.

Like anywhere else? It's not like intrigues and politicking in space is different from politicking in any other place somehow. I fail to see the relevance to space in this, actually.
SkepticInc
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 08:01 AM) *
I fail to see the relevance to space in this, actually.


Because the children of the powerful can leave the planet and try to build a power base elsewhere.
hermit
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Because the children of the powerful can leave the planet and try to build a power base elsewhere.

And why should they? Parents die if they're shot, leonized or not. Not to mention there is no "elsewhere" in SR space, except for a few permanent bases that are not self sufficient at all.
SkepticInc
If you look at everything we've discussed, you'll see that the scions of the powerful have many and good reasons, and a number of advantages places and groups to cultivate.
hermit
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If you look at everything we've discussed, you'll see that the scions of the powerful have many and good reasons, and a number of advantages places and groups to cultivate.

Name five that do not depend on any underlying "to spaaaace" for the sake of being in space motive.

It still does not make much sense for a space colonisation movement as in 70s Asimov/Heinlein/et al scifi to exist. And since this comes down to opinions: I'd rather not have that anyway for reasons of epic cheese and boringness.

Haven't we been there before, anyway?
SkepticInc
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 08:49 AM) *
Name five that do not depend on any underlying "to spaaaace" for the sake of being in space motive.

It still does not make much sense for a space colonisation movement as in 70s Asimov/Heinlein/et al scifi to exist. And since this comes down to opinions: I'd rather not have that anyway for reasons of epic cheese and boringness.

Haven't we been there before, anyway?


We've said nothing about 70's fiction coming into Shadowrun. The 70's never went far enough. Using Psychotropic Reality Filters as a Worm infection on a population as a form of memetic warfare was certainly not in any of Heinlein's books. In Starship Troopers he assumed the MI's helmets would be so large because they would be looking into mirrors that were reflecting computer monitors behind their heads. He most certainly didn't have riggers commanding armies of networked and tacsoft-enabled drones. The ways that a small group of wealthy plotters could disrupt the running of the Earth by setting up base on a metallic asteroid boggle the mind. Why would people go out to space? Because they have to if they want to fulfill the drive to replace their parents at the helm of destiny. Greed, the drive for self-determination, and the burning need for power are all the motivation that humans will ever need.
hermit
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memetic warfare

Is bullshit anyway, unless you mean to look for a cool new name for propaganda.

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He most certainly didn't have riggers commanding armies of networked and tacsoft-enabled drones.

Actually, he did, albeit in a weird way because computert tech was still preoccupied with giant intelligent computers (ficiton that, curiously enough, was already being written on PCs).

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Why would people go out to space? Because they have to if they want to fulfill the drive to replace their parents at the helm of destiny.

Sigh. No. Just accept that kind of talk is uniquely American, and extending it on all humanity is as arrogant and stupid as expcting every culture to be obsessed with baseball.

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Greed, the drive for self-determination, and the burning need for power are all the motivation that humans will ever need.

Again, the world is not made up only of Americans. Greed, yes. Power, often. Drive to self-determination? No.

You might want to look into Confucianism and Dharma - two concepts that spape many of the ideals of SR's dominant corps. Eastern culture is NOT all about self-determination at all, which is why it was vilified as it was by America in the 80s and early 90s. And Eastern culture has been a very important force in SR's corporate and political world, so it's strange to assume it had no effect on attitudes found anywhere in the corp scene, including it'S leaders, who are ultimatly born of that culture.

Again, I challenge you to present five coherent reasons for the powerful to emigrate to space and abandon all power and influence they have, that do neither depend on epic leonisation or some sort of idealised drive of humanity to new shores because they can.
BookWyrm
ALL the info should still be assembled, organized, set up and made into a official or at least semi-official PDF.
hermit
Definitly. Then we can build on that.
SkepticInc
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 09:20 AM) *
Sigh. No. Just accept that kind of talk is uniquely American, and extending it on all humanity is as arrogant and stupid as expcting every culture to be obsessed with baseball.

Again, the world is not made up only of Americans. Greed, yes. Power, often. Drive to self-determination? No.


I hadn't even realized I was engaging in ethnocentrism. Thank you, that's just the kind of thing I was hoping would come up in a Space Sociology thread, I just didn't expect it would be me. Ah, the arrogance of youth.

As BookWyrm said, we should start dumping things completed writings into the Community Project thread for SRiS.
IceKatze
hi hi

QUOTE
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.
- Mohandas Gandhi

QUOTE
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
Confucius

QUOTE
The illusion of having a permanent self is a secret danger that stalks us all: "I want this," "I want that." It can even lead us to kill. Excessive selfishness leads to uncontrollable perversions, which always end badly. But on the other hand, a firm confident sense of self can be a very positive element. Without a strong sense of self, that is, of one's skills, potential, and convictions, nobody can take on significant responsibilities. Responsibility requires true self-confidence. How could a mother without hands save her child from the river?
Dalai Lama

QUOTE
Let me not pray to be sheltered from dangers,
but to be fearless in facing them.
Let me not beg for the stilling of my pain,
but for the heart to conquer it.
Let me not crave in anxious fear to be saved,
but for the patience to win my freedom.
Shantideva


There is a lot of unclaimed territory and resources out there, "more is better," and whoever fails to grow will be left in the dust. I don't think a space race really fits Shadowrun at the moment, I see growth into space as a natural corollary of technological advancement in general, but unless the core principles of Adam Smith style capitalism have fallen by the wayside, growth will be a corporate imperative. When the space race does kick off, I would imagine that good corp citizens would be encouraged and assisted in going out and claiming territory/resources.
hermit
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I hadn't even realized I was engaging in ethnocentrism. Thank you, that's just the kind of thing I was hoping would come up in a Space Sociology thread, I just didn't expect it would be me. Ah, the arrogance of youth.

No offense meant. It's something that ticks me off with much SciFi (which is a rather America centric genre anayway, unless you get the sadly rare translations from Eastern Europe and Russia). I'm not free of this either, noone is, just ... wanted to point out that this kind of vehement optimism is pretty much unquely American. Especially Europe gets more gloomy the farther you go east. Read some Stanislaw Lem, works like Transfer, Eden, or the Indestructible, for a different perspective. The man's writing lacks in characterisation a bit, but when it comes to technology and it's impacts on humanity, he hits the mark better than many.

Okay, IceKatze, shall I selectively quote the bible now, or do we just agree you find anything you look for in any religion if all you need is a little quote?

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I see growth into space as a natural corollary of technological advancement in general, but unless the core principles of Adam Smith style capitalism have fallen by the wayside, growth will be a corporate imperative.

Shadowrun's economy is a world wide oligopoly that is occasionally shaken up, so yes, bye Mr. Smith (which is spelled out in CorpShadowfiles, too, btw). And space is NOT a corollary of technological advancement, any more than nuclear powered cars are. I'm afraid you are a bit biased there.

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When the space race does kick off, I would imagine that good corp citizens would be encouraged and assisted in going out and claiming territory/resources.

... yeah, in wagon trails and everyone gets an acre and a bloody mule.

Sorry, sure that might happen, but I really do not see Shadowrun kicking off into space Heinlein style. Like you said, that is not going to happen in the setting any time soon. And even if, the viability of space remains. So far, there are no autonomous space station in SR, they'Re all dependent on supply runs. This gets really, really expensive really fast.
SkepticInc
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 06:40 PM) *
No offense meant. It's something that ticks me off with much SciFi (which is a rather America centric genre anayway, unless you get the sadly rare translations from Eastern Europe and Russia). I'm not free of this either, noone is, just ... wanted to point out that this kind of vehement optimism is pretty much unquely American. Especially Europe gets more gloomy the farther you go east. Read some Stanislaw Lem, works like Transfer, Eden, or the Indestructible, for a different perspective. The man's writing lacks in characterisation a bit, but when it comes to technology and it's impacts on humanity, he hits the mark better than many.


No offense taken, not in the least. One of the strengths of Shadowrun is that it is a very international game, and it is, as you point out, very difficult to see above one's own culture. Unless the Megacorps have failed to truly be international, they probably don't look at things from any one cultures point of view. I'm very glad you pointed it out.

QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 06:40 PM) *
Okay, IceKatze, shall I selectively quote the bible now, or do we just agree you find anything you look for in any religion if all you need is a little quote?


It looked to me like like IceKatze was grabbing random quotes from the philosophies hermit mentioned, rather than an invite to a quotation pissing contest. If I'm wrong, piss away, but that was what I saw the gist of that being.

QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 06:40 PM) *
Shadowrun's economy is a world wide oligopoly that is occasionally shaken up, so yes, bye Mr. Smith (which is spelled out in CorpShadowfiles, too, btw). And space is NOT a corollary of technological advancement, any more than nuclear powered cars are. I'm afraid you are a bit biased there.


Space as Manifest Destiny should be regarded as a UCAS-centric motivation? Or do you think the Awakening and restructuring of the North American states squashed that core value?

QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 06:40 PM) *
... yeah, in wagon trails and everyone gets an acre and a bloody mule.


Can I get a BigDog instead of a mule? [link]

QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 06:40 PM) *
Sorry, sure that might happen, but I really do not see Shadowrun kicking off into space Heinlein style. Like you said, that is not going to happen in the setting any time soon. And even if, the viability of space remains. So far, there are no autonomous space station in SR, they'Re all dependent on supply runs. This gets really, really expensive really fast.


Agreed. At least one thing we all seem to agree on is that the economies of space habitation do not work if supplies need to be shipped up and down the Earth gravity well. The Space Studies Institute [link] seems to think we can use materials in space to make colonies into closed systems, but since nothing has actually been field tested, it's no sure thing. Biosphere research is pretty neat, but there are a few criticisms [link].

//I'm using links as opposed to pasting quotes as I'm not bidding for these links to be in the supplement.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jun 27 2010, 06:11 PM) *
There is a lot of unclaimed territory and resources out there, "more is better," and whoever fails to grow will be left in the dust. I don't think a space race really fits Shadowrun at the moment, I see growth into space as a natural corollary of technological advancement in general, but unless the core principles of Adam Smith style capitalism have fallen by the wayside, growth will be a corporate imperative. When the space race does kick off, I would imagine that good corp citizens would be encouraged and assisted in going out and claiming territory/resources.

-- This presupposes that manned missions are so cheap as to be free, that Earth really needs those resources, that claiming resources is the same as controlling them, or that tehnological advancement is really a goal of anyone in power

Space travel is expensive in Shadowrun, we know this largely by deduction but it seems to be an unavoidable fact given the kinds of launch technologies in use. The amount of stuff being launched in space seems to be rising over time (perhaps an order of magnitude increase between 2050 - 2070) but it's still largely confined to satellite launches, prestige projects, and expanding existing large stations. The elevator project will be useful in reducing some costs but we have no idea of its scale, who will control it, or how exactly the corporations plan on defending it outside of the usual lame "a wizard does it." The fact that the Corporate Court thinks its a good idea to build the ground facilities in an extremely unstable (and for Shadowrun, that's saying something) area of the world makes me think that they haven't been doing a lot of in-depth analysis smile.gif

What's the point of space development from the point of view of the elites in Shadowrun? Access to resources doesn't appear to be an issue at all, as the (apparantely literal) invisible hand of the market is in play to distribute resources on Earth fairly equitably. You never hear about the UCAS lacking bizmuth or anything. There's no market in space to sell stuff to, no lack of growth opportunities down the gravity well, all your investments in magic amount to squat in space, and it's not even particularly prestigious (a permament Mars base and it's a sidenote). So far, aside from the few prestige projects or long-term deals, is oriented at making better stuff for sale back to the markets of Earth. Unless a TON of people move into space and they have a disposable income to buy the crap being pumped out for Space Stuffer Shacks there's nothing in it for the corporations.

Ok let's say that all those pesky outer space treaties are thrown in the dumpster and there's a new Resource Rush in Space for mountains of gold that somehow doesn't crash the market on Earth and that they figure out an economical way to get the stuff down to the planet without what amounts to asteroid strikes. We probably have to argue that simply sending a drone with a flag to a NEO doesn't count as claiming it, or everyone and their dog is going to be sending out laser-boosted nanoprobes with tiny little flags everywhere to stake their "owndership." So you have to send a metahuman to the spot or something. Ok whatever, either way it doesn't matter because in the dog-eat-dog-eat-devil rat world of Shadowrun possession is just 1/10 of the "law" and the other 9/10 is a big fat assault cannon. That raises costs substantially as you have to guard the resource all the way from extraction to distribution. This has always been one area where the logic of the world breaks down -- in the criminal capitalist system of the megacorps there is no "free riding" on established laws and customs to reduce operating costs.
hermit
QUOTE
Space as Manifest Destiny should be regarded as a UCAS-centric motivation? Or do you think the Awakening and restructuring of the North American states squashed that core value?

Not for the Anglo states - for the NAN, maybe, but 300 years of assimilation cannot just be washed away, I think. Besides, to make the NAN work, it needs the kind of vehement against-all-odds optimism that is typically American (And often enough one of that culture's strengths).

Other cultures either are into space to stick it to Americans (Chia, India), for Technophilia (Japan) or because it is necessary at a minimum level (Europe). Apart from Japan, no other culture is so open to new technologies as the USA, though. Especiually in Europe, after Tschernobyl, every new tech is being carefully evaluated that it will not explode, cause cancer or replicate and eat the world (which is Europe). China is more utilitarian so far, but shows growing restraint, too. India might lean towards a more 'american' view, but their culture, though adaptable, always will be slow moving to stagnant. After all, their faith is wrapped around the idea to diligently fulfill whatever role you have in life, be it as shitty as it is, to be rewarded with a better life next time. Works wonders to keep everyone in line.

QUOTE
Can I get a BigDog instead of a mule? [link]

You sure? It looks like straight from Silent Hill and makes the most horrible noises. I prefer the MULE. It is rugged, perfect moving cover and can be outfitted with heavy firepower, too.

QUOTE
Unless the Megacorps have failed to truly be international, they probably don't look at things from any one cultures point of view. I'm very glad you pointed it out.

No, the Megas haven't shaken their parent cultures ... Corp Guide points this out in length. Ares is very american, NeoNET Transatlantic, MCT, Renraku and Shiawase are stiff japanese conservativism, Wuxing is based on chinese mysticism, Horizon is new age, Saeder-Krupp polished boots marching on, and Aztech ... well, they are their homeland's culture. Evo is a bit of a wild card and alternating between Western tolerance and Japanese stiffness, not having found it's balance yet.
hermit
QUOTE
This has always been one area where the logic of the world breaks down -- in the criminal capitalist system of the megacorps there is no "free riding" on established laws and customs to reduce operating costs.

Gentlemens' agreement most of the time, I always took it. Bit like 1700s colonial companies doing business, only with no parent colonies.

Also, drones are highly vulnerable to hacking in SR4, what with no efficient encryption being possible anymore.

QUOTE
The fact that the Corporate Court thinks its a good idea to build the ground facilities in an extremely unstable (and for Shadowrun, that's saying something) area of the world makes me think that they haven't been doing a lot of in-depth analysis smile.gif

I wonder if there are tax write-offs or government compensation for such massive infrastructural projects being blown to bits ... or maybe that is a huge "behave and don'T touch this or else you find out what an Omega Order feels like" to Amazonia and Aztlan?

Or maybe they had Leman Bros. do the analysis.
IceKatze
hi hi

To say that one group of people is so intrinsically different from another is a textbook case of the fundamental attribution error, and the concept's heavy orientalism has strong roots in outgroup homogeneity bias.

QUOTE
Okay, IceKatze, shall I selectively quote the bible now, or do we just agree you find anything you look for in any religion if all you need is a little quote?
If you know of some quotes from the bible that are relevant to so called eastern philosophy, I would actually love to hear them cause I can't think of any off the top of my head and wouldn't mind being enlightened.

QUOTE
Men's natures are alike, it is their habits that carry them far apart.
- Confucius

In any case, growth is paramount in modern capitalism and the resources on Earth are finite. Eventually there will need to be expansion to exploit previously untapped resources. When that happens is clearly up to debate and I'm not pressing the case that it is necessary in 2072, but I think it could still be profitable, especially considering a number of different cost cutting measures that could be put in place with 2072 technology.

The biggest problem I see with Shadowruns in space is getting there. All the other thematic elements fall into place pretty easily, but there's no good way to hide in space and thus no good shadows as it were. For shadowruns to be a common occurrence in space, there would need to be a lot more commonplace traffic. However, that doesn't rule out more overt operations of some of the higher powered campaign settings.

Edit: I have to wonder where the corps are growing, the game world seems remarkably static over the past few decades. If there are massive deep see mining operations going on, why is there so little information about them in game? Perhaps there should a deep sea supplement as well. smile.gif

Edit Edit: I cant find the specific source but some people have linked a decline in optimism in the US with a decline in interest in science fiction in the US. Conversely, it seems that science fiction is really taking off in China, and some people attribute that to higher levels of education and a government emphasis on innovation and expansion. Interestingly enough, works by "Asimov, Clarke, Pohl, Heinlein and other Golden Age authors - with their 'Humanity Uber Alles' approach - are the works being sold, being read, being taught." while others are being subject to censors.
Science Fiction, Globalization, and the People's Republic of China
Waiting for the Mail: Science Fiction World
hermit
QUOTE
To say that one group of people is so intrinsically different from another is a textbook case of the fundamental attribution error, and the concept's heavy orientalism has strong roots in outgroup homogeneity bias.

Oh, culture does not exist because that would be politically incorrect? Neat.

This is a guideline. You just should not base any laws on it, or policies. It's just something to keep in mind when reading literature or analysing likely business strategies. To some degreeit usually holds true, see the current squabble between Euro countries and the US regarding debt and stimulus packages.

QUOTE
If you know of some quotes from the bible that are relevant to so called eastern philosophy, I would actually love to hear them cause I can't think of any off the top of my head and wouldn't mind being enlightened.

Relevant to stagnation, not rapid development of the self being the goal in life? Certainly.

QUOTE
In any case, growth is paramount in modern capitalism and the resources on Earth are finite. Eventually there will need to be expansion to exploit previously untapped resources. When that happens is clearly up to debate and I'm not pressing the case that it is necessary in 2072, but I think it could still be profitable, especially considering a number of different cost cutting measures that could be put in place with 2072 technology.

But there still is plenty ressources left. You do not tap into new ressources until you have to. Tar earth and deep sea drilling were technically possible since the 1960s, but they haven't begun being explored until 50 years later, when easier oil started to dry up.

Space borne ressource mining still has the gravity well tot ake care of and cannot just drop the amounts of ore or refeined metals necessary to the profitability from orbit without causing significant damage and reducing the stuff in value.

I am not saying it cannot be done or might not be necessary eventually. But certainly not in the forseeable future in Shadowrun.

QUOTE
The biggest problem I see with Shadowruns in space is getting there. All the other thematic elements fall into place pretty easily, but there's no good way to hide in space and thus no good shadows as it were. For shadowruns to be a common occurrence in space, there would need to be a lot more commonplace traffic. However, that doesn't rule out more overt operations of some of the higher powered campaign settings.

And getting around is as much of a problem, since you cannot sneak around in space.

I concur with the rest. Space will remain a fringe setting for high level campaigns and more overt operations or very special scenarios.
hermit
QUOTE
I have to wonder where the corps are growing, the game world seems remarkably static over the past few decades. If there are massive deep see mining operations going on, why is there so little information about them in game? Perhaps there should a deep sea supplement as well.

Hell yes. Absolutly.

Also, there was Proteus. Pity they never translated the stuff. It'S weird and has a heap of transhuman element. Skeptic ould have loved it to bits, I think.

QUOTE
I cant find the specific source but some people have linked a decline in optimism in the US with a decline in interest in science fiction in the US. Conversely, it seems that science fiction is really taking off in China, and some people attribute that to higher levels of education and a government emphasis on innovation and expansion.

And repression.

Also, you can link the probablility to die in an airplane crash and caffeine consume if you want to. Correlation by itself means little. But yes, it might be an indicator that this ultra optimism is wanig, since these books are dripping it so much it is rather a pain to read them sometimes (especially Asimov and Heinlein). But that's me tralking from the perspective of someone whose cultural environment has always been very doom and gloom.

QUOTE
Interestingly enough, works by "Asimov, Clarke, Pohl, Heinlein and other Golden Age authors - with their 'Humanity Uber Alles' approach - are the works being sold, being read, being taught." while others are being subject to censors.

Sure, China is running high on fin de siecle nationalism right now, and borrowing from early cold war USA a lot. The Heinlein/Asimov/et al books fit in well there, including this chauvinist attitude.
IceKatze
hi hi

QUOTE
Oh, culture does not exist because that would be politically incorrect? Neat.
Nice straw-man, very elegant and neat indeed, I thought the attempt to frame my argument in the right wing talk radio pejorative was especially clever. One of the things you'll discover as you study sociology across cultures is that even when you find instances of a statistically significant difference these kinds of behavior patterns, you will still find greater variation within cultures than across.

QUOTE
Relevant to stagnation, not rapid development of the self being the goal in life? Certainly.
I guess I am confused about the point you are trying to make here.

QUOTE
You do not tap into new ressources until you have to.
I think it might be the other way around. You tap any resources that you can turn a profit on. When you are a giant extraterritorial corporation, you can do more than one thing at a time. There is a demand for space technology, especially in a world with such heavy global communications. Satellites and also research laboratories need to be built, placed, repaired, refueled and updated, while factories can produce many more times their own mass in refined goods. The advantages of having on sight production and maintenance seems pretty clear to me anyway.

----
While optimism in the US isn't at an all time low, a recent gallup poll shows that optimism about the future of the USA is down over 10% from the 1990s and early 2000s, while pessimism up significantly.
hermit
QUOTE
One of the things you'll discover as you study sociology across cultures is that even when you find instances of a statistically significant difference these kinds of behavior patterns, you will still find greater variation within cultures than across.

Never doubted that, humanity is nothing if not capable of extremes, especially in behavior. The main body of a goven population, though, will conform to a degree to a set of rules, regulations, perceptions and behavior patterns that usually is summed up as culture.

QUOTE
I think it might be the other way around. You tap any resources that you can turn a profit on.

Kind of. You cannot turn a profit n difficult to access, process or sell ressources if there are sources that are cheaper, higher quality or easier to process with current facilities around, hence the alternative oil ressources being tapped in only recently despite in part being known for 100 or more years already.

QUOTE
There is a demand for space technology, especially in a world with such heavy global communications. Satellites and also research laboratories need to be built, placed, repaired, refueled and updated, while factories can produce many more times their own mass in refined goods.

Stations need logistics. Factories need a way to get their produce to a target market. Factories also need raw materials. So long as the transfer of material into orbit isn't very substantially reduced, that simply isn't viable, even if we accept all other shenanigans like putting asteroids on a Lagrange point and mining them, and setting up orbital facilities as being fully tried, tested, viable and not prone to many malfunctions requiring on-site repair. And how many emerging technologies are as stable?

QUOTE
The advantages of having on sight production and maintenance seems pretty clear to me anyway.

Because you persist to ignore the cost of the support infrastructure and assume cheap to free transfer to orbit.
IceKatze
hi hi

QUOTE
The main body of a goven population, though, will conform to a degree to a set of rules, regulations, perceptions and behavior patterns that usually is summed up as culture.
Populations tend to follow a rather standard bell curve.

QUOTE
Because you persist to ignore the cost of the support infrastructure and assume cheap to free transfer to orbit.
I've cited a lot of sources, and given lots of examples of how it can be done very cheap, and I can continue to do so if necessary. Such as: $60-600 per pound in 1962 tech. But I have a feeling it isn't going to make much difference, and anyway I guess it is more of the mechanical aspect and less the sociology aspect anyway.

I think Big D was into space travel. I had always thought it was related to the horrors, but I don't really know for sure. I don't know if there are any other dragons out there that actually like people, assuming that Big D actually liked people in the first place like he seemed to.
Tzeentch
QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jun 28 2010, 01:38 AM) *
I think Big D was into space travel. I had always thought it was related to the horrors, but I don't really know for sure. I don't know if there are any other dragons out there that actually like people, assuming that Big D actually liked people in the first place like he seemed to.

-- Saeder-Krupp at least partially appears to be developing space assets as a "just in case" if the Horrors return early -- which given how damn close they've gotten after only a few decades since Awakening you can bet that the dragons take it VERY seriously that they might succeed. The fact that actual Horrors made it through in at least one spot, and that wraiths and invae are found in quite a few areas so soon after the magic returned has to weigh heavily in any plans by the immortals.
QUOTE
The biggest problem I see with Shadowruns in space is getting there. All the other thematic elements fall into place pretty easily, but there's no good way to hide in space and thus no good shadows as it were. For shadowruns to be a common occurrence in space, there would need to be a lot more commonplace traffic. However, that doesn't rule out more overt operations of some of the higher powered campaign settings.

-- It won't necessarily tie in with the "street level" ideal of shadowrunning in order to afford your next meal and coffin motel room, but there's no shortage of escapades you can get up to in space.
QUOTE
Edit: I have to wonder where the corps are growing, the game world seems remarkably static over the past few decades. If there are massive deep see mining operations going on, why is there so little information about them in game? Perhaps there should a deep sea supplement as well.

-- Yeah things are a bit strange. Partly this is due to (possible lack of overall) population growth and the big questions as to whether wealth is actually increasing in Shadowrun. Sure there are more people, but absolute wealth appears to be the same or actually reversing -- which would explain the almost complete lack of inflation since 2050 -- and the evidence that the Shadowrun world is actually undergoing a prolonged and painful deflationary event.

IceKatze
hi hi

QUOTE
-- Yeah things are a bit strange. Partly this is due to (possible lack of overall) population growth and the big questions as to whether wealth is actually increasing in Shadowrun. Sure there are more people, but absolute wealth appears to be the same or actually reversing -- which would explain the almost complete lack of inflation since 2050 -- and the evidence that the Shadowrun world is actually undergoing a prolonged and painful deflationary event.
I know there are certain regions of the planet that have become deserted/reverted to wild lands, but this almost sounds like you could drive across the UCAS and find any number of old ghost towns just ripe for a sudden jaunt into the survival horror genre. Maybe I'm just projecting my enjoyment of said genre, but wasn't there an old abandoned space station like that too?
SkepticInc
QUOTE (IceKatze @ Jun 28 2010, 05:24 AM) *
hi hi

I know there are certain regions of the planet that have become deserted/reverted to wild lands, but this almost sounds like you could drive across the UCAS and find any number of old ghost towns just ripe for a sudden jaunt into the survival horror genre. Maybe I'm just projecting my enjoyment of said genre, but wasn't there an old abandoned space station like that too?


Nerva L3 Station. And what a wonderful name! NERV(a): "It's penetrating your AT field! Reverse the tangent graph!"
Lanlaorn
Regarding surface to orbit costs, I don't know what the fluff says is being used but with the level of technology and magic, for crying out loud in Shadowrun you could trivially create any number of dirt cheap methods.

I mean hell, take a space elevator, we know they readily have the materials on hand for the cable but now cast a Quickened Levitate on the capsule. You can, completely energy free, lift it up out of the atmosphere until it leaves the gaiasphere and the background count in space puts the spell into dormancy. That's by far the hardest part of surface to orbit done for free.

I mean hell, every launch vehicle should be "ok we'll Levitate until we break the atmosphere then the engines kick in". Granted it's (relatively) very slow, Force*hits meters/turn so even a Force 12 spell will do 48 m/s or 172.8 kph (107 mph). But that's still ~35 minutes from ground to LEO, so quite bearable.

Or how about just cheap launch vehicles and Air Spirits using their Movement power? It multiples speed by the spirit's magic (which equals its force), so a Force 10 spirit increases your velocity by an order of magnitude! The Body value of your craft will have to be low but for a relatively flimsy cargo box you're sending to your orbital factory that shouldn't be a problem.

So really it's quite pointless to argue about the cost/pound to get things into orbit in the Shadowrun world, they definitely have the technology to pull it off cheaply but completely ignoring that, they can use magic to greatly augment the tech.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Regarding surface to orbit costs, I don't know what the fluff says is being used but with the level of technology and magic, for crying out loud in Shadowrun you could trivially create any number of dirt cheap methods.

I mean hell, take a space elevator, we know they readily have the materials on hand for the cable but now cast a Quickened Levitate on the capsule. You can, completely energy free, lift it up out of the atmosphere until it leaves the gaiasphere and the background count in space puts the spell into dormancy. That's by far the hardest part of surface to orbit done for free.

I mean hell, every launch vehicle should be "ok we'll Levitate until we break the atmosphere then the engines kick in". Granted it's (relatively) very slow, Force*hits meters/turn so even a Force 12 spell will do 48 m/s or 172.8 kph (107 mph). But that's still ~35 minutes from ground to LEO, so quite bearable.

Or how about just cheap launch vehicles and Air Spirits using their Movement power? It multiples speed by the spirit's magic (which equals its force), so a Force 10 spirit increases your velocity by an order of magnitude! The Body value of your craft will have to be low but for a relatively flimsy cargo box you're sending to your orbital factory that shouldn't be a problem.

So really it's quite pointless to argue about the cost/pound to get things into orbit in the Shadowrun world, they definitely have the technology to pull it off cheaply but completely ignoring that, they can use magic to greatly augment the tech.


I don't think any corp is going to waste their magical talent on this, especially as the space elevator hasn't been finished yet.
Lanlaorn
Well it's not really much of an investment, granted using Quickened spells would get expensive karma wise fairly quickly, but hiring one mage with a few sustaining foci to lie on a blanket and make things go up would be remarkably cost effective.

You'd probably cover his wages for the year in fuel savings in a day.
hermit
QUOTE
I mean hell, every launch vehicle should be "ok we'll Levitate until we break the atmosphere then the engines kick in". Granted it's (relatively) very slow, Force*hits meters/turn so even a Force 12 spell will do 48 m/s or 172.8 kph (107 mph). But that's still ~35 minutes from ground to LEO, so quite bearable.

I guess you missed the part where magic does not work in space, or even just the Stratosphere (the Gaiasphere ends in what, 10 km height?).

Besides, this would be one hell of a waste of magical talent. Nevermind that they already have an immense spirit problem with the mass driver on Kilimandjaro, which is why they decided to greenlight the Skyhook project in the first place.

And finally, where the hell do you get then idea from that mages work for free. Especially guys witht he foci and powerr to make that happen.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 28 2010, 06:04 PM) *
I guess you missed the part where magic does not work in space, or even just the Stratosphere (the Gaiasphere ends in what, 10 km height?).

Besides, this would be one hell of a waste of magical talent. Nevermind that they already have an immense spirit problem with the mass driver on Kilimandjaro, which is why they decided to greenlight the Skyhook project in the first place.

And finally, where the hell do you get then idea from that mages work for free. Especially guys witht he foci and powerr to make that happen.


Especially when you get a mage outfitted with all that kit and training, he's proud of himself, ready to 'do good' for his corp, and he gets his first assignment:

To be a stevedore on the space elevator because his bosses are cheap.

I can see that going over real well.
Lanlaorn
Are you even reading my posts? Levitate lifts 200 kg (440 pounds) per point of force, if you're overcasting it's not hard at all to lift a couple tons of cargo with normal force levels. I'm not advocating carrying passenger liners into space with your mind here. So "the power and the foci to make that happen" is a Force 4-5 mage. Next, I specifically mentioned the mage's wages being covered by the savings in fuel, so no, I don't think they work for free.

Also FYI, according to Street Magic,

QUOTE
As you get farther from the Earth’s
astral form and the presence of living material, however, astral
space becomes one vast void. At the upper mesosphere
of Earth’s atmosphere and beyond into deep space, the astral
plane is a singular void with small pockets of weak mana located
at orbital stations and lunar colonies.


So no, the gaiasphere ends at 100 km in height, you missed a 0 there.

The mesosphere is above the stratosphere and ends at 50 miles above the Earth, and "space" is said to officially exist at about 60 miles above the Earth (and you can do a Low Earth Orbit at 100 miles). Mages are rare but this would be remarkably easy and incredibly cost effective, Corporations could spare one Mage for their space divisions. Hell, he could also be in charge of security and be the guy maintaining the wards and keeping spirits patrolling the place. He literally needs to know one spell, Levitate.

Take the time to read this post before you reply by the way, maybe even formulate a reasoned argument this time rather than just some agressive knee jerk nonsense.
hermit
QUOTE
Are you even reading my posts? Levitate lifts 200 kg (440 pounds) per point of force, if you're overcasting it's not hard at all to lift a couple tons of cargo with normal force levels.

Yes, and if you're a masochist, you actually want a job that is as intensely painful. Not to m,ention that "a couple tons" isn't very much in space travel anyway.

QUOTE
I'm not advocating carrying passenger liners into space with your mind here. So "the power and the foci to make that happen" is a Force 4-5 mage.

Okay, so you build a trillion nuyen structure for what, levitating microsattelites up? That shows some awesome business sense on your part. Congratulations, and I am hopnored to meet the new Bill Gates.

QUOTE
Hell, he could also be in charge of security and be the guy maintaining the wards and keeping spirits patrolling the place. He literally needs to know one spell, Levitate.

Because you buy such people out of chargen, yes. And he could also be in charge of Matrix security! And you only need one guy, because people never want days off, need to sleep, or get sick. You could also have him do security at all the other places in the world too! Because multitasking never is a problem to anyone at all.

QUOTE
Take the time to read this post before you reply by the way, maybe even formulate a reasoned argument this time rather than just some agressive knee jerk nonsense.

grinbig.gif Yes, as soon as you post something that is even remotely thought through and not just "hey, technically this might work with the rules".
Doc Chase
There are currently three ways to get something into orbit in the SR universe:

1. Solid fuel rocket boosters. Tried and true method - it's worked for over a hundred years. Incredibly wasteful, incredibly inefficient, but it makes plenty of pretty lights. Can't put a lot of mass in orbit with it.

2. Mass driver. Massive electromagnetic space catapult. I'm sold on it just for the fact it's a [b]space catapult[/i]. Spirits don't like it - love messing with it. They want it out of their land. Also burns a lot of power, but not so much fuel. Giant chain of capacitors + fusion plant = big kabang.

3. Space elevator. A 65,000 mile long cable. Can be used to transmit power along with shipping materials up the chain. Most fuel efficient as it doesn't have to use fuel - the rollers just use the power flowing down the cable. Ironically we will likely have space elevators before a mass driver in RL - they've been working with carbon nanotube designs this year.

The trouble with press-ganging mage teams to Levitate cargo for options 2 and 3 is that there's no point for them to do it.
hermit
Besides, I doubt operating a maglev along the hook would be so much more expensive.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 28 2010, 07:36 PM) *
Besides, I doubt operating a maglev along the hook would be so much more expensive.


Eh, to make a maglev work you'd need two to four lines, otherwise the magnetic repulsion would push the train right off the tracks and to its screaming doom, which would be bad. biggrin.gif

The big restriction they have right now for transport via elevator is time spent - if you don't mind that it's going to take like 3 months for it to get up there, then all right! If time sensitivity is an issue, well then you're kinda screwed. By 2072, they've clearly solved this problem.

Hell, they have suborbital aircraft capable of traversing the world in a matter of hours by last year in the timeline. I'm surprised the elevator took 60 years to become viable.
SkepticInc
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jun 28 2010, 07:18 PM) *
3. Space elevator. A 65,000 mile long cable. Can be used to transmit power along with shipping materials up the chain. Most fuel efficient as it doesn't have to use fuel - the rollers just use the power flowing down the cable. Ironically we will likely have space elevators before a mass driver in RL - they've been working with carbon nanotube designs this year.


I'll believe it when I see it. I'm a fan of the idea, and I want it to work, but it's one of those technologies that's been "right around the corner" for quite a long time. I've heard someone managed to start making much smaller nanotubes, but I haven't found any references yet.
Lanlaorn
You guys are aware that the vast majority of mages employed by corporations are making goods to be sold for profit? You've got the security mages and the R&D mages and then the rest are just churning out formulae, foci, fetishes and whatever other product is in demand. Corporations do what is profitable and a Mage in their space division would be more profitable than a Mage in the Focus sweatshop.

One Force 4-5 Mage with 2 Foci of the same force (so 80,000-100,000 nuyen) could, without overcasting, lift 6 2-ton cargo capsules an hour. He works a typical 9-5 and so puts up 96 tons of raw material for your orbital factory per day. With no expenses besides his salary. That absolutely will be cheaper than the fuel or electricity for other launch methods and more profitable than making magical goods. And as I mentioned, this same mage would be on site for maintaing wards and keeping a few bound spirits patrolling (which takes one day a month, if that, to set up, so pretty damn easy to "multitask").

Oh btw, I know you don't actually know anything but "microsatellite" is a real term and they're classified as under 100 kg in weight. I didn't even intend this for launching anything prebuilt, simply raw material where one lump sum of 100 tons or 50 doses of 2 tons spread over the day doesn't make a difference. In case you're curious though, the average satellite weight is about 2 tons, but only a quarter of geostationary communication satellites fall into that range, most things AAA Corps would want to launch would be a few times heavier. Although you could just *gasp* assemble it in space.

What exactly is your argument against this plan, again? Because it clearly would be a) doable and b) cost effective. The only reason it hasn't been is because a fluff writer hasn't thought of it yet.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (SkepticInc @ Jun 28 2010, 06:46 PM) *
I'll believe it when I see it. I'm a fan of the idea, and I want it to work, but it's one of those technologies that's been "right around the corner" for quite a long time. I've heard someone managed to start making much smaller nanotubes, but I haven't found any references yet.


MIT's been submitting nanotube designs for the Space Elevator Games since '07, it seems, according to the wiki on Space Elevator.

This particular set of games has them doing competitions on lifting and tensile strength materials. Apparently they've got climbers that can pull 2m/s.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 06:48 PM) *
You guys are aware that the vast majority of mages employed by corporations are making goods to be sold for profit? You've got the security mages and the R&D mages and then the rest are just churning out formulae, foci, fetishes and whatever other product is in demand. Corporations do what is profitable and a Mage in their space division would be more profitable than a Mage in the Focus sweatshop.


I was always under the impression that wiz kids (not to be confused with Wizkids, har) created and bonded their own foci - which is why the telesma market is huge. But yes, we're aware that corporations want money, and mages want to get paid.

QUOTE
One Force 4-5 Mage with 2 Foci of the same force (so 80,000-100,000 nuyen) could, without overcasting, lift 6 2-ton cargo capsules an hour. He works a typical 9-5 and so puts up 96 tons of raw material for your orbital factory per day. With no expenses besides his salary. That absolutely will be cheaper than the fuel or electricity for other launch methods and more profitable than making magical goods. And as I mentioned, this same mage would be on site for maintaing wards and keeping a few bound spirits patrolling (which takes one day a month, if that, to set up, so pretty damn easy to "multitask").

So what you're really saying is, all I need to do to completely disrupt this company's elevator operation is get a guy with a high powered rifle about a klick away? Nice.

And as a bonus, I knock out the entire facility's astral defense? Oh man!

QUOTE
Oh btw, I know you don't actually know anything but "microsatellite" is a real term and they're classified as under 100 kg in weight. I didn't even intend this for launching anything prebuilt, simply raw material where one lump sum of 100 tons or 50 doses of 2 tons spread over the day doesn't make a difference. In case you're curious though, the average satellite weight is about 2 tons, but only a quarter of geostationary communication satellites fall into that range, most things AAA Corps would want to launch would be a few times heavier. Although you could just *gasp* assemble it in space.

While I'm sure this will be ignored, the snarkiness isn't helping your cause. Seriously, you'll get quite a bit better quality debate if you lose the chip on your shoulder. There's a difference between being a smartass for humor and just being an ass because people don't agree with you.

QUOTE
What exactly is your argument against this plan, again? Because it clearly would be a) doable and b) cost effective. The only reason it hasn't been is because a fluff writer hasn't thought of it yet.


My argument is that I would have better things to do with my magical talent. I also don't agree that it would be doable - I feel it relies far too much on one person for such a menial chore. Just because a corp likes to minimize costs doesn't mean that they're going to go to these lengths.
SkepticInc
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jun 28 2010, 07:53 PM) *
MIT's been submitting nanotube designs for the Space Elevator Games since '07, it seems, according to the wiki on Space Elevator.

This particular set of games has them doing competitions on lifting and tensile strength materials. Apparently they've got climbers that can pull 2m/s.


I am full of YAY!™ at the prospect. Thanks for the link.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 01:48 PM) *
You guys are aware that the vast majority of mages employed by corporations are making goods to be sold for profit? You've got the security mages and the R&D mages and then the rest are just churning out formulae, foci, fetishes and whatever other product is in demand. Corporations do what is profitable and a Mage in their space division would be more profitable than a Mage in the Focus sweatshop.

One Force 4-5 Mage with 2 Foci of the same force (so 80,000-100,000 nuyen) could, without overcasting, lift 6 2-ton cargo capsules an hour. He works a typical 9-5 and so puts up 96 tons of raw material for your orbital factory per day. With no expenses besides his salary. That absolutely will be cheaper than the fuel or electricity for other launch methods and more profitable than making magical goods. And as I mentioned, this same mage would be on site for maintaing wards and keeping a few bound spirits patrolling (which takes one day a month, if that, to set up, so pretty damn easy to "multitask").


Not only this, but some mages may not be at all interested in working in a Fetish sweatshop or doing security work. A job where they can be outside all day, putting paackages up into space might really appeal to some of them. Don't discount the personalities of the workers, espcially if they have a rare and hard to reporoduce skillset (magician).

As to the arguments against cost effectiveness, it won't be cost effective to be the first company to launch a major project in space. If you are the first ones to set up an asteroid mining operation, it is going to cost a pile. Of course as you put up some population and production, it becomes necessary to build some infrastructure out there. Then to get the most out of that infrastructure investment, you might want to rent capacity out to others. Now they can build projects for less cost. And so on...

The first guy who took a wagon out West wasn't doing it because it was cost effective to go build a town from scratch.
Lanlaorn
QUOTE
While I'm sure this will be ignored, the snarkiness isn't helping your cause. Seriously, you'll get quite a bit better quality debate if you lose the chip on your shoulder. There's a difference between being a smartass for humor and just being an ass because people don't agree with you.


That was directed to Hermit, if you look at the posts on this page you'll see I came into this completely snark-free and posting about how magic could greatly help with surface to orbit costs. Hermit decides the response to this is to display his startlingly lack of reading comprehension while being openly hostile. I am replying in kind. I'm cool with you Doc, although I must say if I were a wage mage I'd much rather be the magic stevedore than churning out formulae or whatever. I'm sure the pay is great, since mages are so rare, but the work has got to be ridiculously unrewarding.
TommyTwoToes
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 27 2010, 05:19 PM) *
Sure, China is running high on fin de siecle nationalism right now, and borrowing from early cold war USA a lot. The Heinlein/Asimov/et al books fit in well there, including this chauvinist attitude.

Actually the cyclical nature of Easter outlooks could result in a China that definately thinks of itself as on top or rising to the top and settign up a big manned space project would be prestigeous and in keeping with their destiny.

Or an AI could be looking for a redundant environment to house Matrix-space.

As another aside, someone mentioned that the world population was pretty stagnant, it shouldn't be. Orcs alone should have a population growth curve that scares the crap out economists and humanis folks alike. Doesn't it say in the orc description that multiple births are common (I don't know why I have the number 8 stuck in my head but I do). Also Orcs physically mature very quickly, how young do they become sexually active? 10 or so based on their short lifespans sounds about right. We should be seeing some pretty heavy pop growthfrom them. Normally lowign income levels result in higher pregnancy rates as well, and that situation may fit a large portion of the orc populace.

I could even see human supremancists pushing for an off world colony just to get away from the other races and preserve their 'heritage'.
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