Page 74 implies that you don't. Rerolled dice are not 'Edge dice'.

The bolded parts are important, as only rolls including Edge dice benefit from Ro6. The reroll adds no Edge dice (and the long shot specifically states that it is exempt from Ro6).

This seems to be the truly important part.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

Karoline, Cain, I can't tell what question you're answering. Page 74 clearly points out cases where Ro6 applies, and say nothing about it in the reroll bullet point.

SR4 prohibits Ro6 in general. The only time it comes into play is when some effect specifically allows for it, like when you use edge in specific ways. Since, in the case of rerolling, there is no mention of Ro6, one can therefore assume no Ro6.

Also, I would go with rerolling all failed dice in a given test in the case of the 3rd Edge use option. It's already been argued to death, and any points I have to bring up on the subject have already been made, so I won't bother.

All dice qualify for Rule of Six because edge was spent prior to roll and edge dice are used.



The additional dice rolled qualify for Rule of Six because edge was spent prior to the roll of edge dice. The dice rolled previous to the edge spent that came up 6 do not qualify for Rule of Six because Edge and Edge dice had yet to be invoked.



None of those dice rolled qualify for Rule of Six since edge dice are not used.

For Rule of Six to come into play, the roll you are making must have included Edge Dice. Rule of six cannot apply by RAW without edge dice present.

Oh, guess I wasn't reading closely enough. Thought people were trying to figure out if a die that comes up 6, then gets rerolled due to Ro6, still has Ro6 applied to it, but they were talking about if Ro6 applies when you spend edge to reroll the dice that didn't get a hit.

Far as I can tell, Ro6 doesn't apply to rerolling non-hits, since it doesn't say that it does (Though it is true that it doesn't specify that it doesn't like long shot does)

The reason Long Shot specifies is because those *are* Edge dice. So, it's a specific case where Edge dice don't get Ro6.

I am coming into this a little late, but is can edge be spent once per action or once per test?
I understand the following:
1. You can spend a point of edge to go first
2. You can spend a point of edge to get an extra initiative pass
3. You can spend a point of edge once each action
- However...how does that work on defense and drain?

Can I spend a point of edge each time I defend as well?
Is the drain soak roll separate from the spell casting roll?

In short, is it possible for a mage with 5 edge to:
1. Spend edge to go first
2. Cast a mana bolt with edge
3. Resist the drain with edge
4. Spend edge on a defensive dodge roll
5. Spend a point to get an additional initiative pass

Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes.

The only way that wording would read the way you interpret it is if the test had zero hits total. By your own example, you said if the test had three hits out of ten dice, you'd re-roll all of them. However, that test scored three hits so wouldn't be eligible for a re-roll at all. You'd have to either totally fail, or not get a re-roll. Which seems rather restrictive for a concept like Edge.

It only makes sense that you re-roll the dice that missed.

Slight correction, 5 has to be done first, and 2 and 3 can't be done together.

It'd be nice if at some point in the past couple of years one of the various SR developers would have chimed in somewhere on what they actually MEANT by rerolling failed die or test, huh?





-karma

Uh. 2 and 3 can totally be done together. They're different rolls. Hell, you can edge a Defense test (still get shot) and then edge the following Damage Resistance test.

As for #5, you can do that one, the order may matter, but you can still do it.

They are different rolls, but they are the same action, and only one point of edge can be spent per action or test.



The order does matter, because once you start taking actions you lose the option to spend edge for an extra IP. Though I suppose it could be done in slot 2 if slot one was used to spend edge to go first in the pass.

So it is once per action, or once per test?
Could you roll edge for a dodge and then roll edge on the soak?
Are those two tests, or is it just one action?

I've seen it explained as once per test, but I've also seen once per action only.

Ambiguity in the rules is just fun. It means that 2 groups of players can be playing RAW and still have mechanically different games. Hooray for variety!

You can spend only 1 Edge per test or per one action at one time. So if you are performing multiple actions at once you can't spend Edge on both.

How is it possible that still doesn't answer my question?
So can you spend edge on a dodge and spend another edge on a soak?

Yes, but making an attack and resisting damage are totally separate tests. And really, that's all casting a spell and resisting Drain is.

Actually, casting the spell and resisting the drain are both parts of your action. With dodge/damage resistance, it can be argued that the dodge is a part of your defensive action while the damage resistance is part of the attacker's action.

But "resist drain" isn't an action by itself, nor are they the same test. Therefor, IMO, you can edge the casting (the action) and the drain (a result). It's not like firing two guns with two hands at the same time.



Again, dodge and damage resistance don't happen at the same time (and aren't the same test), again, unlike firing two guns at the same time.

AHHHHH! Undead Thread!

Thread Necro (sorry guys), but at least my search-fu was strong today.

Given the following rule interpretations:
1. Re-rolling failed dice on a test means only the failed dice (not the whole pool) are re-rolled
2. When re-rolling failed dice, they are not Ro6
3. When adding edge before rolling, the whole fist-full of dice is Ro6

What is the ratio of Edge to Base Dice Pool before you re-roll rather than add to pool?

I hope that makes sense…

Don't worry, it's actually kind of interesting to see this again , as the second preview for 5th ED contains the Edge section, and some *much* clarified verbiage.



Roughly 1:3

I haven't crunched the number completely, but that's pretty close. Once your dice pool exceeds 3x your Edge Attribute, you're better off rerolling. Except in cases where you, the player, just need to be lucky; where you *need* the Rule of Six for it to be possible to roll the necessary successes.

It also depends on how many more successes you need. If you're off by just a few, and you have a lot of failed dice, rerolling is better regardless of your Edge score. If you're off by a lot, or if most of the dice are successes and you're still down, adding your Edge is often the better move.

Here is me going through the math (roughly). I only used one set of exploding sixes (to simplify the math), so it is a rough estimate.

This all assumes that you are deciding before you even roll (enabling you to use rule of six on the entire pool).


X = Base Die Pool

E = Edge


In case of Adding Edge First (Gets Rule of Six):

(X + E) / 3 = Average hits

(X + E) / 6 = Average 6's that get rerolled.

((X + E) / 6) / 3 = Average hits of this reroll.


7(X + E) / 18 = Average Total Hits



In case of Rerolling Dice that didn't get hits:

X / 3 = Average hits.

2X / 3 = Average dice to be rerolled.

(2X / 3) / 3 = Average additional Hits.


5X / 9 = Average Total Hits



Set Average Total Hits of both to be equal...

7(X + E) / 18 = 5X / 9

7(X + E) / 2 = 5X

7X + 7E = 10X

7E = 3X

7E/3 = X


If your Base Die Pool is ~7/3 * your Edge (A little more than double), the average hits are the same.

Using an example: Edge of 6, a die pool of 14 would be a wash (7.77 hits).
If you increase the Die pool to 18: spending edge afterward gets you an average of 10 hits. Spending edge beforehand gets you ~9.33 average hits.

Decreasing base pool to 12: afterward is average 6.66, beforehand is 7 average hits.


My rule of thumb is if your base die pool is double your Edge or less, edge ahead of time. If your die pool is triple your edge or more, use edge afterward. In between, it's based on your luck.

The reason why I asked is in our last session a situation came up where my character's base dice pool was 21 dice and her edge score is 7. I really needed as many hits as possible (opposed test) and I was hard pressed to decide if I should add the edge before or re-roll. My typical roll for this test is 19 dice (+7) and I usually add the edge to the poll on start, but with 21 dice I couldn't figure out quickly which I wanted.

I ended up with the 28 dice Ro6 roll and barely beat my opponent (only 3 net hits). My dice were very much against me that day, which is actually pretty typical for me.

With this "lucky" build it is sometimes important to know when would be best to add or re-roll. I'm the only player that uses edge much, by the end of most missions I'm at 0 available edge.

As a general rule: if your dice pool is large, roll first and Edge later. You might get lucky without it. Also, you then have the advantage of knowing exactly how many more successes you need, so you can Edge appropriately.

You make it sound like you get a big benefit for just adding the edge pool after you've already rolled. You only get the rule of six on the edge dice if you're adding it after the roll has already been made, so it's not likely to have a big effect, even an edge of 6 is only likely to get one or two dice that get to be rerolled on a rule of six after the fact...

You do have a big benefit. Namely, you know how many more successes you need. If you spend before the roll, and your pool is large, you could end up with overkill.

Look at it this way. If you're rolling 21 dice, you stand a good chance of succeeding without Edge. If you do fail, you can count how many dice failed, compare that to your Edge score, and determine which gives you the most dice. For example, if you have Edge 6 and 10 failed dice, rerolling is the better choice. If only 3 failed, then Edging for extra dice is best. The Rule of Six is just a bonus.

I rarely know how many hits I need. In our group the GM rolls behind a screen (we like it that way). The process usually is: I roll and report my hits, then the GM reports the result.

There have been times when I didn't use edge and reported a more-or-less average roll, I said I would use edge and the GM suggested I not "waste" the point as I really didn't need it. I could have still used it for the better success, but usually when a suggestion of that nature comes in you follow it.

By the way, this whole thing is running off of a heavy-handed house rule to over-simplify matrix interaction. We have for the most part boiled hacking down to a single opposed test. Whomever gets more successes affects the other in a more dramatic way. If the "house" wind the worst-case is that the hacker suffers 10P damage (unresisted) and is tracked, the best case is the hacker has up to 4+ "commands" that can be done on the device and pulls pay data. No back doors are allowed. It works well for us.

While technically the GM isn't obligated to report how many successes he rolled on an opposed test, he is obligated to report degree of success. Based on that, you can easily estimate how many more successes you need after the roll. For example, if you're shooting at someone and the GM reports a narrow miss, it's pretty clear you are only a few successes off. If he reports a critical success, then you know you need at least four more successes, and so on.

That's what does happen usually.

Way back (years ago, I haven't the patience to search out the thread), a bunch of us used different methods, algebra, calculus, whatever, to arrive at the turning point ratio of 2.5. If the original dice pool is more than 2.5 times the Edge pool, the likelihood of more successes comes with rerolling misses. If the dice pool is less than that, the likelihood of more successes comes with adding the Edge dice before the roll.

Dumb-shit luck can blow any of this out of the water.

Thanks pbangarth, this is precisely what I was looking for. My dumb luck usually runs on the side of aww shit rather than woohoo.

Once the gm has announced the results of a test, it's usually too late to use edge to alter the results...

The degree of success of an opposed test is based on the compared rolls, once both parties have rolled and determined their results. Edge would have to be used before the results are determined, not after.

The books don't actually say that. All it says is "after you roll". So you can roll, wait until the GM announces the opposing successes, and and then spend Edge before the roll is resolved.

You must have a very liberal GM. When I announce the degree of success, the roll is resolved. You can spend Edge to reroll failures between rolling and getting the result, but once the result is in, it's in.

You're welcome to do that in your own games, but by RAW, it's not clear. Because I ran a lot of Missions games, I had to stick to RAW.