Is there a limit on how much edge can be used at one time? Can you keep re-rolling misses? Until your all out of edge? And normally the rule of six doesn't apply on re-rolls but what if you use egde on the initial roll?
Thanks
Full Version: Edge then edge again?
Once.
Rule of 6 applies if you pre-use it, AFAI recall.
Rule of 6 applies if you pre-use it, AFAI recall.
I'm fairly sure you're only allowed to use edge once on any given thing. And you do use the rule of six on rerolls as far as I remember.
I recently came across this in a PbP game:
Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.
According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.
-DrZaius
Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.
According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.
-DrZaius
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 18 2010, 08:40 PM) 
I recently came across this in a PbP game:
Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.
According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.
-DrZaius
Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.
According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.
-DrZaius
Not unless that changed between 4e and 4A. You just reroll the dice you didn't get a hit on.
DrZaius, complete-reroll was my understanding, but it's not a *huge* difference. House-rule however your group likes. 
There was a long thread about this: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." People interpret it differently. It barely matters, but my personal take is complete-reroll. The use of the words 'all' (instead of 'each') and 'single test' imply that (to me).
There was a long thread about this: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." People interpret it differently. It barely matters, but my personal take is complete-reroll. The use of the words 'all' (instead of 'each') and 'single test' imply that (to me).
I just re-read the rules, and I'm still confused 
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
So I guess my first statement was incorrect?
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
So I guess my first statement was incorrect?
Until the dev(s) who wrote it come tell us, it's certainly ambiguous. I feel the verbiage implies a full reroll of the Test, but others feel otherwise. Statistically, it's not vastly (that is, game-breakingly) different, so do what you like. Obviously, preferential (partial) reroll would give more hits (and more reliably).
The best way to use Edge is (edit:)Rule-of-Six everything and add your huge Edge score, so this isn't even the biggest use case.
Statistically, it's not vastly (that is, game-breakingly) different, so do what you like. Obviously, preferential (partial) reroll would give more hits (and more reliably).The best way to use Edge is (edit:)Rule-of-Six everything and add your huge Edge score, so this isn't even the biggest use case.
QUOTE (SR4A pg. 74)
Spending Edge
When you spend a point of Edge, you can choose to have one of the following happen:
• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your
full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this
test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may declare the use of Edge after you have rolled for one test. In this case,
you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add
their hits to the test’s total. The Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the
additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.
• You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.
• You may make a Long Shot Test (p. 61) even if your dice pool was reduced to 0
or less; roll only your Edge dice for this test (the Rule of Six does not apply).
• You may go first in an Initiative Pass, regardless of your Initiative Score (see
Initiative and Edge, p. 145). If multiple characters spend Edge to go first in the
same pass, those characters go in order according to their Initiative Scores first,
then everyone else goes according to their Initiative Scores.
• You may gain 1 extra Initiative Pass for that Combat Turn only (see Initiative
and Edge, p. 145).
• You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch.
• You may invoke the Dead Man’s trigger rule (p. 163).
A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on
behalf of others (except when engaged in a “teamwork” test, p. 65). No more than
1 point of Edge can be spent on any specific test or action at one time. If you spent
a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you
cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge
to that test.
When you spend a point of Edge, you can choose to have one of the following happen:
• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval
roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your
full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All dice (not just Edge dice) rolled on this
test are subject to the Rule of Six (p. 62), meaning that if you roll a 6, you count
it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may declare the use of Edge after you have rolled for one test. In this case,
you may roll a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute and add
their hits to the test’s total. The Rule of Six (p. 62), however, applies only to the
additional Edge dice rolled, not the original dice pool.
• You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.
• You may make a Long Shot Test (p. 61) even if your dice pool was reduced to 0
or less; roll only your Edge dice for this test (the Rule of Six does not apply).
• You may go first in an Initiative Pass, regardless of your Initiative Score (see
Initiative and Edge, p. 145). If multiple characters spend Edge to go first in the
same pass, those characters go in order according to their Initiative Scores first,
then everyone else goes according to their Initiative Scores.
• You may gain 1 extra Initiative Pass for that Combat Turn only (see Initiative
and Edge, p. 145).
• You may negate the effects of one glitch or critical glitch.
• You may invoke the Dead Man’s trigger rule (p. 163).
A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on
behalf of others (except when engaged in a “teamwork” test, p. 65). No more than
1 point of Edge can be spent on any specific test or action at one time. If you spent
a point of Edge for extra dice and rolled a critical glitch anyway, for example, you
cannot use Edge to negate that critical glitch since you have already applied Edge
to that test.
To the OP:
As the last paragraph says, this list is a pick one and only one deal. If you spend Edge to add to your pool (and invoke the Rule of Six), you may not spend Edge to reroll. Similarly, if you spend Edge to reroll and still don't like the result, you're stuck with it.
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 19 2010, 03:46 AM)
I just re-read the rules, and I'm still confused
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
So I guess my first statement was incorrect?
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
So I guess my first statement was incorrect?
I think it goes as written there, since Great Dragons have a similar ability to make a player reroll all hits in a roll, but not failing dice.
That use of Twist Fate is a good point, but it hurts as much as it helps. In its description, it clearly says "Failed dice are not re-rolled". This could imply that not mentioning it in on p74 means full re-rolls; on the other hand, the phrasing of 'dice that scored hits' is similar, which could mean p74 intended to mean partial rerolls. There's simply no way to be sure.
There's simply no way to be sure.
Yet again...
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
The modifier "hit" can be applied to either "dice" or "test" within the English language. It is clearly poorly written, and either interpretation would be valid.
Except
Within the rules of the game, a "test" cannot score a "hit". As such, the modifier must be applied to "dice".
Rules as Written, if you decide to use the reroll option of Edge, you reroll all the dice that did not score a hit, while all dice that did score a hit are not rerolled.
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit."
The modifier "hit" can be applied to either "dice" or "test" within the English language. It is clearly poorly written, and either interpretation would be valid.
Except
Within the rules of the game, a "test" cannot score a "hit". As such, the modifier must be applied to "dice".
Rules as Written, if you decide to use the reroll option of Edge, you reroll all the dice that did not score a hit, while all dice that did score a hit are not rerolled.
*shrug* You can "score hits on a test", which is the same to me. Not that it matters. I kinda prefer the (minor) gamble of testing fate.
Not that it matters. I kinda prefer the (minor) gamble of testing fate.
I think I'd go with the latter, since the wording is similar. I can see your point about not being entirely sure, though. Seems another line up to interpretation.
Of course if you read "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." as 'hit' talking about 'test' and not 'dice' then you can only reroll a test in which you score no hits. So there are two ways to interpret this. Either you reroll dice that didn't get a hit, leaving the ones that did get a hit alone, or you can only use the option when no dice have come up as a hit, in which case you reroll all dice.
It should be noted that in neither interpretation do you reroll a die on which you got a hit.
It should be noted that in neither interpretation do you reroll a die on which you got a hit.
Except "tests" don't score successes. Dice do that. 4.5 didn't change that.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2010, 03:49 AM)
The best way to use Edge is (edit:)Rule-of-Six everything and add your huge Edge score, so this isn't even the biggest use case.
this is just not mathematically correct. rule of thumb: unless your edge > dice pool-2, rerolling failures is the better options.
e.g. Edge 4, dice pool 5: use add und rule-of-6
Edge 3, dice pool 5: use rerolling failures
do the math.
that's btw the only interpretation i've ever seen. rerolling all dice that didn't hit.
QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 18 2010, 11:49 PM)
this is just not mathematically correct. rule of thumb: unless your edge > dice pool-2, rerolling failures is the better options.
e.g. Edge 4, dice pool 5: use add und rule-of-6
Edge 3, dice pool 5: use rerolling failures
do the math.
e.g. Edge 4, dice pool 5: use add und rule-of-6
Edge 3, dice pool 5: use rerolling failures
do the math.
Okay...
Edge 3, DP 5, E+Ro6 = 8 dice base, 1.33 dice rerolled for 3.11 hits on average
Edge 3, DP 5, Reroll = 5 dice base, 3.33 dice rerolled for 2.78 hits on average.
The actual shift point is:
E=1, always reroll.
E=2, DP>3 reroll.
E=3, DP>6 reroll.
E=4, DP>9 reroll.
E=5, DP>12 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jul 19 2010, 09:20 AM)
Okay...
Edge 3, DP 5, E+Ro6 = 8 dice base, 1.33 dice rerolled for 3.11 hits on average
Edge 3, DP 5, Reroll = 5 dice base, 3.33 dice rerolled for 2.78 hits on average.
The actual shift point is:
E=1, always reroll.
E=2, DP>3 reroll.
E=3, DP>6 reroll.
E=4, DP>9 reroll.
E=5, DP>12 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
Edge 3, DP 5, E+Ro6 = 8 dice base, 1.33 dice rerolled for 3.11 hits on average
Edge 3, DP 5, Reroll = 5 dice base, 3.33 dice rerolled for 2.78 hits on average.
The actual shift point is:
E=1, always reroll.
E=2, DP>3 reroll.
E=3, DP>6 reroll.
E=4, DP>9 reroll.
E=5, DP>12 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
thx for the push, i did my math again, and i accidently missed a letter in my formula
my math now tells me, a die using Ro6 effectively hits with a chance of 40%
still i get slightly different results than yours:
E=1, DP>2 reroll.
E=2, DP>5 reroll.
E=3, DP>8 reroll.
E=4, DP>10 reroll.
E=5, DP>13 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
The decision is a bit more complicated because of glitches though.
If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.
On the other hand, having more dice in the pool does make a glitch occuring more unlikely.
If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.
On the other hand, having more dice in the pool does make a glitch occuring more unlikely.
QUOTE (Nixda @ Jul 19 2010, 07:52 AM)
If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.
Or you could reroll all of those non-hit dice, maybe even pulling out more hits.
Or in the case of "all or nothing" interpretation, you could decide you don't like your "1-hit glitch" and just scoop them all up and try again.
QUOTE (Nixda @ Jul 19 2010, 02:52 PM)
The decision is a bit more complicated because of glitches though.
If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.
On the other hand, having more dice in the pool does make a glitch occuring more unlikely.
If you spent a point of edge before the test, and it turns out to be a glitch, you cannot spend edge to negate that glitch. If you were planning on spending the edge point after the roll to reroll failures, and the roll turns out to be a glitch, then you can still expend that point of edge to avoid the glitch instead.
On the other hand, having more dice in the pool does make a glitch occuring more unlikely.
happened to my Edge7 guy recently. resisting some stupid poison. Bod3+edge7=10 dice, rolled a critical glitch anyway
QUOTE (DrZaius @ Jul 18 2010, 09:40 PM)
I recently came across this in a PbP game:
Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.
According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.
-DrZaius
Rerolling failures has changed significantly. Instead of rolling 10 dice, getting 3 hits, and then 'rerolling failures' by rolling the remaining 7 dice to get additional hits is no longer a feature in the game.
According to my SR4A book, rerolling failures mean you re-roll the whole test. I.e., I roll 10 dice, get 3 hits, and decide to reroll it, keeping whatever result I get.
-DrZaius
There's nothing in spending edge that says reroll a failed test. I see rerolling all dice that did not score a hit.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 19 2010, 01:33 PM)
There's nothing in spending edge that says reroll a failed test. I see rerolling all dice that did not score a hit.
Think of it like this:
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test (that did not score a hit)."
As opposed to how you are seeing it (and as I personally interpret):
"You may re-roll all of the dice (on a single test) that did not score a hit."
In both cases the parenthetical is referring to the noun immediately preceding it.
QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 19 2010, 02:26 AM)
thx for the push, i did my math again, and i accidently missed a letter in my formula
my math now tells me, a die using Ro6 effectively hits with a chance of 40%
still i get slightly different results than yours:
E=1, DP>2 reroll.
E=2, DP>5 reroll.
E=3, DP>8 reroll.
E=4, DP>10 reroll.
E=5, DP>13 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
my math now tells me, a die using Ro6 effectively hits with a chance of 40%
still i get slightly different results than yours:
E=1, DP>2 reroll.
E=2, DP>5 reroll.
E=3, DP>8 reroll.
E=4, DP>10 reroll.
E=5, DP>13 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
Okay. It looks like I forgot to add the extra bonus from the Ro6 in my math.
However;
E=1, DP=1 is situational. You are better off with the reroll when one hit is enough, as in both cases you end up with a 66% chance of scoring one or more hits and if you score a hit on the first roll, you can save the edge. If you need more than one hit, then E+Ro6 is the only option.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 19 2010, 03:10 PM)
Think of it like this:
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test (that did not score a hit)."
As opposed to how you are seeing it (and as I personally interpret):
"You may re-roll all of the dice (on a single test) that did not score a hit."
In both cases the parenthetical is referring to the noun immediately preceding it.
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test (that did not score a hit)."
As opposed to how you are seeing it (and as I personally interpret):
"You may re-roll all of the dice (on a single test) that did not score a hit."
In both cases the parenthetical is referring to the noun immediately preceding it.
"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit.
"You" - Subject of the sentence
"may reroll" - Verb of the sentence
"all" - Object of the verb
The original sentence is "You may re-roll all".
Both "of the dice" and "on a single test" are propositional phrases that complement the noun before it.
"You may re-roll all (of the dice (on a single test))."
All what? of the dice
Which dice? the one's on a single test
However, "that did not score a hit" is a quantifier for a noun that is quantifying "all". Even if it was modifying a preposition, it would modify "dice" not "test"
"You may re-roll all that did not score a hit."
If I were going by the "that" clause quantifying "test" then you would not be able to spend edge to re-roll dice on a test unless you achieved 0 hits since it would be "single test that did not score a hit."
However, I believe you and I are interpreting that line identically.
If I roll 10 dice and get 3 hits and 7 non-hits. I can spend a point of edge to re-roll just the 7 dice that did not obtain a hit. (<-- My Interpretation) You were leading, perhaps inadvertently, towards a situation that a test with a single hit was ineligible for edge to be spent to re-roll dice.
EDIT: Okay. I am really bored apparently.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 19 2010, 02:46 PM)
However, I believe you and I are interpreting that line identically.
If I roll 10 dice and get 3 hits and 7 non-hits. I can spend a point of edge to re-roll just the 7 dice that did not obtain a hit. (<-- My Interpretation) You were leading, perhaps inadvertently, towards a situation that a test with a single hit was ineligible for edge to be spent to re-roll dice.
If I roll 10 dice and get 3 hits and 7 non-hits. I can spend a point of edge to re-roll just the 7 dice that did not obtain a hit. (<-- My Interpretation) You were leading, perhaps inadvertently, towards a situation that a test with a single hit was ineligible for edge to be spent to re-roll dice.
You and I both come to the same conclusion, I was just pointing out where the opposition was coming from.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 19 2010, 03:46 PM)
However, I believe you and I are interpreting that line identically.
You and he and most people. The only other way to interpret the sentence is that any of the dice rolling a hit on a test disqualifies the roll from being able to be rerolled in any form, which is fairly absurd.
QUOTE (Karoline @ Jul 19 2010, 03:23 PM)
You and he and most people. The only other way to interpret the sentence is that any of the dice rolling a hit on a test disqualifies the roll from being able to be rerolled in any form, which is fairly absurd.
Well, having taken multiple Linguistics and English courses in college, I'm pretty aware of the fact that an ambiguous sentence such as the one in question in this thread can be diagrammed in multiple ways. Indeed, that sentence is pretty badly and vaguely written.
I lean towards the interpretation where you can't reroll failures if you get a single hit for two reasons:
a.) It matches up with the rules for Skillwire Expert Systems and what they state.
b.) I've seen how overpowered it is with large dice pools, both as a GM and a player. If you have lots of dice already, then it almost ensures you get a ridiculous number of hits on whichever test you choose to use the Edge on. There's almost no incentive to use the Edge dice in the pool or after the roll, since the chance of rerolling hits on missed dice is mathematically superior to hoping your 6s explode.
Just my thoughts.
I wasn't paying attention earlier, but is it *really* better to reroll non-hits than to roll your whole (DP + Edge) with Ro6? It just seems wrong. For one thing, you're not getting + Edge, and then Ro6 on the whole thing… *shrug*
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2010, 04:05 PM)
I wasn't paying attention earlier, but is it *really* better to reroll non-hits than to roll your whole (DP + Edge) with Ro6? It just seems wrong. For one thing, you're not getting + Edge, and then Ro6 on the whole thing… *shrug*
If you throw 21 dice and get 7 hits, you can either have thrown edge before (+6 dice) or throw non-hit dice (+14 dice). Which is better:
14 / 3 = ~5
6 / 3 = ~2 +~1 die reroll
?
Statistically, adding edge first means your dice pool is "1 hit in 2.5 dice" rather than "1 hit in 3" whereas rerolling failures gives you 1/3rd of 2/3rds (2/9ths) of your dice as more hits.
What if you threw 27 dice and got all sixes? 
I'll need better data than *that*.
I'll need better data than *that*.
Statistically, adding edge first means your dice pool is "1 hit in 2.5 dice" (with a slightly increased number of dice) rather than "1 hit in 3" whereas rerolling failures gives you 1/3rd of 2/3rds (2/9ths) of your dice as more hits (for a total of ~5/9ths average hits, ratio of 1:1.8 ).
I see. And how does it affect things if Edge is very large or small, relative to the DP? I wouldn't call changing a DP from 8 to 12 'a slightly increased number of dice', for example.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2010, 04:14 PM)
I see. And how does it affect things if Edge is very large or small, relative to the DP? I wouldn't call changing a DP from 8 to 12 'a slightly increased number of dice', for example.
If Edge is large, compared to the dice pool, the extra dice you get will trade in (at 1:2.5) for more hits than you'd get by trading 1:1.8.
Example:
10 dice, 6 Edge:
16 dice -1:2.5-> 6.4 hits, average (2.4 from Edge alone)
10 dice -1:1.8-> 5.55 hits, average (2.22 from reroll)
10 dice, 3 Edge:
13 dice -1:2.5-> 5.2 hits (1.2 from Edge)
10 dice -1:1.8-> 5.55 hits (2.22 from reroll)
Thanks! I'd have to make some graphs, but it seems like there's a fine line between the two options, depending on DP and Edge.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2010, 04:20 PM)
it seems like there's a fine line between the two options, depending on DP and Edge.
There most certainly is!
Including if the number of hits you need is greater than your base dice pool.
Even if rerolling failures is statistically better, if all hits still results in a failure (or death, when dealing with damage) then it's better to add Edge beforehand!
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 19 2010, 02:20 PM)
Thanks! I'd have to make some graphs, but it seems like there's a fine line between the two options, depending on DP and Edge.
The basic math has already been done.
QUOTE (Makki @ Jul 19 2010, 02:26 AM)
thx for the push, i did my math again, and i accidently missed a letter in my formula
my math now tells me, a die using Ro6 effectively hits with a chance of 40%
still i get slightly different results than yours:
E=1, DP>2 reroll.
E=2, DP>5 reroll.
E=3, DP>8 reroll.
E=4, DP>10 reroll.
E=5, DP>13 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
my math now tells me, a die using Ro6 effectively hits with a chance of 40%
still i get slightly different results than yours:
E=1, DP>2 reroll.
E=2, DP>5 reroll.
E=3, DP>8 reroll.
E=4, DP>10 reroll.
E=5, DP>13 reroll.
E=6, DP>15 reroll.
E=7, DP>18 reroll.
I said, I wasn't paying attention earlier. What I really meant was that that list is very unhelpful. Thanks again, Draco.
What I really meant was that that list is very unhelpful. Thanks again, Draco.
QUOTE (Abschalten @ Jul 19 2010, 03:02 PM)
Well, having taken multiple Linguistics and English courses in college, I'm pretty aware of the fact that an ambiguous sentence such as the one in question in this thread can be diagrammed in multiple ways. Indeed, that sentence is pretty badly and vaguely written.
I lean towards the interpretation where you can't reroll failures if you get a single hit for two reasons:
I lean towards the interpretation where you can't reroll failures if you get a single hit for two reasons:
While it is true that the sentence as written can be 'correctly' interpreted either way linguistically (you may reroll a test that did not score a hit - or - you may reroll all dice that did not score a hit), it cannot be done so within the Shadowrun game, as I demonstrated earlier, although possibly poorly.
A test is qualified as either a Success or a Failure.
A die is qualified as either a Hit or a non-Hit.
A test cannot score a 'Hit', and so cannot be the target of the modifier "did not score a hit". As such, the modifier must be applied to dice.
"On a single test, you may reroll all dice that did not score a hit" is the valid interpretation, Rules as Written.
Anything else is a House Rule.
The internet; Where three people can argue the same side of an argument while claiming that everyone else is wrong.
@Muspellsheimr:
I see where you are coming from, certainly. But I'd be giving way too much credit to the writers of the rules if I thought they were that nuanced and careful in their uses of the terminology. Truth is only the person who authored the statement knows what was really written.
Edit: If they'd written the statement as you did ("On a single test, you may reroll all dice that did not score a hit") there would be no ambiguity or room for interpretation.
I see where you are coming from, certainly. But I'd be giving way too much credit to the writers of the rules if I thought they were that nuanced and careful in their uses of the terminology. Truth is only the person who authored the statement knows what was really written.
Edit: If they'd written the statement as you did ("On a single test, you may reroll all dice that did not score a hit") there would be no ambiguity or room for interpretation.
QUOTE (Abschalten @ Jul 20 2010, 01:11 AM)
But I'd be giving way too much credit to the writers of the rules if I thought they were that nuanced and careful in their uses of the terminology.
Did they really pay that much attention to get the rules to function as intended? Hell no. We need only look at Indirect Combat vs. Object Resistance (among many others) to see that.
This is probably one of only a few of the convoluted instances that Rules as Written actually matches the (probable) Rules as Intended. Nonetheless, it is in fact RAW.
Still, quite possibly the best use of Edge, as far dice efficiency, remains using it to gain an extra IP.
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jul 20 2010, 02:04 AM)
Still, quite possibly the best use of Edge, as far dice efficiency, remains using it to gain an extra IP.
A good point there. And it goes great with re-rolling failed dice.
QUOTE (Abschalten @ Jul 20 2010, 02:11 AM)
@Muspellsheimr:
I see where you are coming from, certainly. But I'd be giving way too much credit to the writers of the rules if I thought they were that nuanced and careful in their uses of the terminology.
I see where you are coming from, certainly. But I'd be giving way too much credit to the writers of the rules if I thought they were that nuanced and careful in their uses of the terminology.
I know of at least one author, possibly more, with sufficient understanding of grammar to merit that credit. That's not to say more don't, just I've only had one stress the importance of the proper use of the semi-colon.
That said, I read the statement and interpreted it to mean refill dice that were not hits, without registering the possibility of another interpretation. So I ask you, did you initial come to the same conclusion prior to grammatically analyzing the statement or was analysis require to understand the statement?
Grammatical analysis is entirely suspect, anyway.
Tests can score hits if they want to. I'm much more convinced by the argument that it would be bad to limit the use of the reroll to zero-hit situations.
Tests can score hits if they want to. I'm much more convinced by the argument that it would be bad to limit the use of the reroll to zero-hit situations.
QUOTE (Abschalten @ Jul 19 2010, 10:02 PM)
b.) I've seen how overpowered it is with large dice pools, both as a GM and a player. If you have lots of dice already, then it almost ensures you get a ridiculous number of hits on whichever test you choose to use the Edge on. There's almost no incentive to use the Edge dice in the pool or after the roll, since the chance of rerolling hits on missed dice is mathematically superior to hoping your 6s explode.
D = Dice in DP
E = Edge
Expected # of hits from an exploding 6s die = 2/5
Expected hits from adding Edge after the roll = (D/3)+(2E/5) = (5D+6E)/15
Expected hits from re-rolling failed dice = (D/3)+((2/3)x(2D/5)) = 9D/15
Equality occurs if: 5D+6E = 9D or 3E = 2D
So, if the DP is less than 1.5 times the Edge rating then adding the Edge dice is preferrable, but re-rolling failures is preferred otherwise. This will often be the case, but then shouldn't it be true that Edge does you more favour when applied to something you're experienced at? (Bear in mind that Edge is more akin to resourcefulness than actual luck).
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jul 20 2010, 07:15 AM)
D = Dice in DP
E = Edge
Expected # of hits from an exploding 6s die = 2/5
Expected hits from adding Edge after the roll = (D/3)+(2E/5) = (5D+6E)/15
Expected hits from re-rolling failed dice = (D/3)+((2/3)x(2D/5)) = 9D/15
E = Edge
Expected # of hits from an exploding 6s die = 2/5
Expected hits from adding Edge after the roll = (D/3)+(2E/5) = (5D+6E)/15
Expected hits from re-rolling failed dice = (D/3)+((2/3)x(2D/5)) = 9D/15
The bolded and underlined part is in error. Should be (D/3)+((2/3)x(D/3)) as you don't get the Rule of 6 on the rerolled dice.
QUOTE (Deadmannumberone @ Jul 20 2010, 12:54 PM)
The bolded and underlined part is in error. Should be (D/3)+((2/3)x(D/3)) as you don't get the Rule of 6 on the rerolled dice.
Erm... yes you do. Check your copy of SR4.5 again. Page 62, I believe.
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