Based on my previous questions and the fact that my group is very much so into *big* guns, I have created a few sample battle rifles to alleviate some of their complaints ("You mean I can't use wall running *and* shoot my sniper rifle without damaging it!?"). These guns are basically designed around the principle of a sport rifle or that one version of the Steyr Aug-CSL that is a 'rifle'; this means they have 10-20 round magazines. I would really love feedback on these designs. I'm wondering if an AP of -2 might be more appropriate?

A battle rifle is a heavily modified assault rifle or purpose built combat rifle designed to fill the gap between assault and sniper rifle. A character firing a battle rifle uses the Longarms skill. Battle rifles suffer double uncompensated recoil and use sport rifle ranges. They can accept top, barrel and under-barrel accessories.

Sample Rifles:
AK-97 MBR - This variant on the most common assault rifle in production today offers the increased damage of a larger round in exchange for a smaller magazine and increased recoil.
Ammo: 18c
Mode: SA
DV/AP: 7P/-2
Mods: None
Cost: 1500
Avail: 10R

HK G12A5 - This battle rifle from HK replaces various components of its popular G12 model to withstand the chamber pressure of larger, more powerful rounds. Instead of a laser sight, standard issue G12A5 rifles feature an imaging scope, bipod and GasVent 2 system that can not be upgraded further.
Ammo: 24c
Mode: SA/BF
DV/AP: 7P/-2
Mods: Bipod, Folding Stock, GasVent 2 Imaging Scope
Cost: 2200
Avail: 14F

Colt M23 EBR Conversion Kit - This conversion kit replaces the barrel, magazine and receiver of an M23 while retaining its general appearance and shape. The conversion requires a shop and Logic+Armorer (8, 1 hour) extended test. Observers must make a successful perception test with a threshold of 2 just to notice that 'something is different' about the firearm.

Modified Colt M23 EBR
Ammo: 20c
Mode: SA
DV/AP: 7P/-2
Mods: None
Cost: 750
Avail: 8R

FN HBAR - The FN HBAR is a new take on an older classic. The rifle is designed to fire rounds commonly used in sniper rifles out of a frame designed to withstand the rigors of the modern warfare. Production HBAR models feature an internal bipod, folding stock and internal smartgun system.
Ammo: 15c
Mode: SA
DV/AP: 8P/-2
Mods: Folding Stock, Internal Bipod, Smartgun
Cost: 3200
Avail: 15F

Edit: added the HBAR, updated ranges from Sport Rifle to LMG (800m max). Changed G12A5 magazine to allow for one round of suppressive fire. Converted 'Generic Battle Rifle' to AK-97 clone.
Edit2: Removed ability to use GasVent system (like shotguns) except on the G12 version.
Edit3: Changed all battle rifles to longarms skill and SA firing mode ('cept the G12A5). This is probably a final edit. See also the H517 here

So where does this weapon leave the assault rifle in terms of being used? I suppose these have slightly smaller clips, so they aren't as good for full spray, but it seems they take out the assault rifle's main 'niche'.

I generally consider the main use of assault rifles to be burst/full auto fire in an unrestricted environment. I base this on the ease with which they can acquire 6-8 points of recoil comp, or max out recoil comp on a stronger character without significantly sacrificing concealability (possibly even enhancing it). Conversely, it is difficult to impossible to fire most heavy weapons while remaining mobile without the use of a gyro-harness. This weapon should be fulfilling the role of the single shot weapon at ranges greater than those of a shotgun firing slugs. It should only ever be fired FA when supressing or from a very controlled position (I could see using a six round burst in ideal conditions). However, I could remove the FA mod to greater clarify the distinction between assault rifle and battle rifle.

I normally take the sporting rifle and use augmentation to change the mode to BF, and extend the clip for ammo cap. That gives you 7p -2 sport rifle ranges and a short burst of 9p. I know that this takes up all the mod slots in the weapon but makes it more like a BAR.

I like this concept. Though I think I would drop BF from the fire modes making them all SA/FA. This would allow less overlap with the assult rifles but still make the battle rifle a viable weapon.

The double uncompensated recoil is probably the best thing on these, it'll keep the lead hose effect to a minimum.

-D

Well, and seeing as there are already rules in place for making these in Arsenal, it probably doesn't hurt to have some already made up and available for players that want to be a marksman, as opposed to a sniper.

Some additional thoughts:

Doubling of uncompensated recoil penalties, most assuredly, to reflect the generally higher 'oomph' of their rounds, that adds up when you rock and roll.

It seems SR4 has more or less done away with weight considerations, or downplayed them, but I'd consider the battle rifle to be about what, 50 percent heavier than an assault rifle?

In general, I used to use a 'battle rifle' for my earlier SR games, the m14 variant being my most favored (ala Raygun and his awesome gun site), the trade off was each individual hit was heftier, which meant theoretically your ammo load requirements was lessened/able to last longer, because you weren't going burst/fa.

You mean just modding the hell out of a sport rifle?

In my games, we give the BRs double recoil (as a shotgun). This fits the reality of battle rifle cartridges and the real-world reason for the development of assault rifles (recoil). They're just ARs firing 'sport rifle' cartridges. They're certainly heavier and 'more illegal' (whatever that means), and otherwise use Longarm penalties (concealability, etc.). Just like in real life, ARs in SR are usually a more flexible, more useful weapon, but I hate having things in 2010 that *don't* exist in 2070, so we added them into the game.

Those interested should read the Wikipedia page on Battle Rifles. From the introduction:

I'd increas the con mod by -1 longer barrel,up the DV not the AP by 1, add clips of 10-20 rounds and add in a basic imaging scope, smart linked/few vison mods on it and x2 uncompensated recoil setting base RC and such so that only BF is reasonable with out massive modds but keeping FA but more for supressive fire on the 20© guns. Then you get a gun that out of the box is better at marksmanship than a AR but worse in CQB and longer fights.

Going by the G3, FAL, and M14, looks like the clip is about 20 (as you said, Dumori, 10-20). The G3 can do a 50 round drum, which would be the Extended Clip (Drum) mod from Arsenal.

Yeah, I'm not honestly sure if 6P/-2 or 7P/-1 is more accurate? I was kinda considering 7P/-2, but then I'd really want to make sure it doesn't have easy FA recoil comp, since then you're in the territory of HMG damage.

As for conceal, there is no listed modifier for things bigger than assault rifles and katanas, but maybe you could just say 'can not be concealed' at that point.

There might not be a listed mod but increasing it via house-rule is fine for adding them in. They are in most cases shorter than sniper rifles 16-20 inch barrel then to mean adding ~4-10 inches of lenght to an AR only at the very top end can you seeing crossing the yeah not under the long coat any more line..

Well, it's not vastly bigger than some ARs, so maybe don't worry about it. Or, just say '+8', done. Sniper rifles are 'unconcealable', right? Somewhere right in between.

I guess 7P/-1, but it doesn't matter *too* much. As long as none of the models have tons of 'free' recoil (Ares Alpha, Ingram White Knight, etc.), I think it's fine. You could rule that they have FA for the purpose of Long Bursts only, if necessary. The key difference is the increased range: while SR ARs top out at 550m, a BR should go to 800m (er, Sporting Rifle is 750m, so maybe just use that).

Other variants: 7P/-2 or 8P/-1 (as some of the Sporting Rifles), but with SA-only (like the M14?).

The overall balance is more range and slightly more damage, traded for smaller clip, more recoil, more weight/size (whatever that means), and more illegal (whatever that means). Does that sound fair?

That sounds exactly right to me, Yerameyahu. I basically want my players to have 'bigger' guns that do SA and only do FA for very important tasks like supressing a window for one turn only, or such.

x2 the uncomp recoil, SA/BF/FA would work fine as rule them none asvent able and that most you gonna really twink out is 5-6 RC

Well, they're certainly gas-ventable. But as long as you don't give 'free' RC (Praetor, etc.), then it's probably okay.

That wiki page is a bit dubious, like it's trying to develop the taxonomy of rifles rather than describe them (reference 3 in particular). Good for an RPG though ;)

I like these. Always wondered where the MBR/EBR type weapons were in SR. I agree with Yerameyahu, that it seems odd not to have these in 2070 when we have them now. Maybe the plans were lost with Crash 1 or 2 (yea right)

That or the main issues of battle rifles were corrected, and battle rifles became the 'current' version of assault rifles. Granted it gets a little wonky in the sense that sport rifles still have better damage than assault rifles, but in the sense that 'now' an ak-98 can do the same damage and have the same range as a colt m23a (ak47 vs M16?) implies they found away to put beefier battle-rifle grade ammo in lighter assault rifle weight.

Over on youtube, there's a guy running a socom 2 field run who comments that while he likes the .308 round its firing, its a heavy thing, with its smaller mag as well, but also talked about how great it would potentially be if you could get the weight down on the rifle but still maintain the punch of the round.

Added another rifle. Changed range from Sport Rifle to LMG. The latter change was made as the short-medium and medium-long changes occur sooner, but the max range is greater. Seems more in keeping with the steroidal assault rifle model.

I'd really like some commentary on the last rifle, the HBAR. I put in the 6 round maximum so that an assault rifle will always remain a stronger option for pure DV per complex action (2 short bursts for 8P each, or one full burst for 15P) but allowing the HBAR to have some utility against characters with higher dodge pools.

Well thats one way to alliviate their complaints, but you could also just do a way with that silly,silly rule addition to sniper rifles, becouse it really doesn't make any fraggin sense.

I tend towards this theory especially since, as you noted, they've got platforms that traditionally run 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 cartridges having the same damage code. Considering the advanced materials and recoil compensation gear that they've got available, I kinda would have assumed they merged the common "assault" and "battle" rifles by this time. The only hangup I see, is in the distance.

I guess my theory on the sporting rifles is they use some of the more "beefed up" versions of hunting calibers (.300 win mag or the like) as sporting rifles.

But as for the difference between, say, .223 and .308; I like to shoot the .308 better in almost every role, except my M1A with synthetic stock and lighter barrel is still 9 lbs unloaded. That's pretty heavy to pack around, and the 22 inch barrel would make it pretty much useless for any activities a 'runner would normally do, except run overwatch. That said, I still hump it around the woods from time to time.

Man, now I'm drooling about the aspect of a light .308 (I'd prefer the M1A/M14 platform, but I guess an AR-10 would work; don't like FALs and HKs) with the kind of recoil compensation available in Shadowrun... that'd be awesome.

I agree with what you're saying Remnar but I figure if all assault rifles are shooting the modern equivalent of 7.62 with the recoil/magazine capacity of 5.56 rifle there will still be a place for a rifle shooting a larger caliber round to fill that gap between the assault and sniper rifles. Secondly, from a purely game/rule oriented point of view, there is a huge jump from the damage/purpose/cost of an assault rifle to that of a sniper rifle. And while sport rifles and shotguns could fill that void, they tend to be too specifically designed to provide the exact utility I'm looking for. With these things in mind, I set about trying to create a glamorous 'heavy assault rifle' that wouldn't just trump the need for all current assault rifles/sniper rifles in the game but would still satisfy the minds of my players.

A muzzle brake on a .308 pretty much eliminates muzzle climb. I know some hunters with them, and they say they can see the target drop through the scope. Fortunately I've never had the pleasure to hear one being fired, it should be really, really loud. Apparently even ear protection won't reduce the sound below levels that will damage your hearing.

@ Grue Master: I agree with you and very much like your designed weapons. I basically did the same thing when I realized the hole in SR firearms selections. I'll probably end up stealing a gun or two from your list, so excellent job. I like the reduced fire rate for the HBAR, excellent. LMG ranges make sense to me for a base, I like it.

@ Smokeskin: I've only got the factory springfield flash hider on my M1A and the muzzle jumps a bit (not bad compared to something like .30-06), but still fairly easy for follow up shots, be tough to handle on full auto I can only imagine. I guess when I think of SR-level recoil compensation, where you can get a full 6-10 rounds off with no effect on follow up shots I drool. I envision shooting an assault/battle rifle with the recoil of a .22 LR.

As for noise, with just the flash hider on the M1A... its plenty loud. Not so bad that just cheap ear plugs don't stop most of it (then again, my hearing in my right ear isn't great thanks to years of hunting, also one poorly aimed baseball), but its still probably the loudest rifle I have.

A good muzzle brake should eliminate practically all muzzle climb, and I'd imagine it would work equally well on a full auto weapon. But the noise levels really are supposed to be unmanagable, people really bitch when someone has been on the shooting range with one. On full auto, I'd imagine it would be unbearable. There's a reason these things aren't used on more rifles than they are.

I have a Steyr Scout .308, and weighing less than 7lbs, I'd really like less muzzle climb on it, it literally jumps on the bipods if I don't grip the foreend. I looked into getting a muzzle brake on it, but everyone, and I mean everyone, I talked to that had heard one being used talked so badly about it. I decided against it and just keeps a firm grip on it instead

Have you seen the Vector (formerly Kriss Super V) from TDI? I'd really like to shoot one of those.

I have seen the Vector, those look very interesting. Think I saw a thing on them on the History Channel or something... also in Modern Warfare 2 (not that it matters).

I do like the heavier M1A for range work, not to mention the amazing iron sights (I can get better 100 yard groups with irons on that than I can on several of my scoped rifles).

I was pretty annoyed when I discovered, after the fact, that mounting a bipod on the M1A that does not attach to the gas cylinder requires drilling the stock and some significant modification of the bipod mount. Supposedly Springfield will do it for you (for a price of course) but I'm just going to have to wait until I can afford a "throwaway" (yeah $400+) stock to try it on. Don't like the ones touching the gas cylinder because they monkey with the accuracy pretty bad, it'd be good for full auto though, which is what they were designed for on the M14.

A good muzzle break would be interesting to try, I'll have to put that on my list of things to do once I get back in the lower 48 states, since ammo is hard to get where I'm at and there's not really a good range, just a lot of open tundra. I did get a chance, years back, to try a friend of a friend's M1 Garand which had a muzzle break on it, didn't really notice much difference in the .30-06, except that it was LOUD. Something about those WWII era weapons I always think, since another friend had a 9mm (from Belgium... I think) that his grandpa brought back. Story was get got it of an enemy officer or some such, had swastikas carved on the barrel and slide. I can't vouch for the authenticity of the story. Loudest 9mm I've ever shot. Also was missing a front sight, made it ... interesting to shoot.

Heh, since they're not clear on caliber, it'd be funny to note that sports rifles actually fire .50 cal rounds, with the new barret actually firing 25mm slugs or something.

Given that the majority of current generation assault rifles are chambered for 5.56 and most EBR/DMRs are chambered for 7.76 I think the damage codes listed accurately represent this.

I really want to take my SR-9 out to fire again. Heavy as hell with a good bit of recoil, but there is something satisfying about a winchester .308

If it wasn't for logistical reasons, I'm pretty sure 5.56 would be scrapped and replaced with 6.5mm Grendel or something like that, which gives better performance in short-barreled carbines.

But then Auto-Cannons have to fire something bigger, like mortar rounds... So mortars have to fire 120mm tank shells... AND THEN MAIN BATTLE TANKS HAVE TO FIRE TACTICAL NUKES!

OH GOD, HEAD FOR THE HILLS!

The main difference is that 'Battle Rifles' are firing something like 7.62x51, versus 7.62x39 (or 5.56, etc.). They really are firing bigger, more powerful rounds, the same rounds as lower-end sniper rifles or the M60 machine gun (like an MMG vs. an LMG, say the M249). If you look at how the damage codes progress, I don't think that ARs in the future simply 'ate' the BR category. It's just missing (presumably for balance and simplicity in an already crowded section of the book).

As I recall the RL reason for the change from the heavier rounds to the short rounds was to reduce weight, wear and tear on the gun (the larger catedges caused more mechanical difficulties cause of the higher pressures), increase ammo capacity (upping ammo capacity from 15 to 20 rds 10 30), and reduces recoil. That being said, in SR weight is not a factor, wear and tear is not a factor, ammo would be, but by SR standars the recoil would be the same. SOme examples of this are the STG44 (it was originally tried as 8mm but quickly wnet to the 8mm kurz), M16 (originally 7.62). Note that alot nations did adopt the G3-the quintessential battle rifle, but most NATO and other allied forces have switched to 5.56N.


To model the differences, the battle rifle would have longer range, high damage, lower ammo capacity (20 rds max), and be SA/BF to account for the wear and tear and increased recoil). I'd use the sporting rifle range for the weapon, make it 7P, AP-2. To spot it would be an N/A.

Yes, but I'd rather not make the counterfactual ruling that FA doesn't exist, even in stock models. In 2010, it obviously *does*, and it drives me crazy in games when the future is crappier than the now. Shotgun recoil seems fair, and it uses a simple, existing mechanic. It's also nice to have some differentiation in the firearms lineup: an M14-style model with SA-only, a G3-style model with FA, etc. Mix up the mods a little, so that the 'EBR' has extended barrel, while the 'SCAR-H CQB' has reduced barrel, and so on.

For some guns, wear and tear IS a factor. There are a handful of pistols that have a gimped BF, fluffed that it 'inflicted wear and tear on the gun', right? A GM could use some kind of enhanced Glitch rule for FA mode, etc. Get creative; don't flat out disallow things, but make it a tradeoff.

Hell with x2 the uncomped recoil and 20rnd mag FA is just impractical fr anything but an OH SHIT moment of suppressive fire or FA bursts or should be close to.

Yeah, what I am most interested in right now is upping the damage to 7P/-2 (8P for the HBAR) without risking the guns being abused with tons of RC and extended mags. Just dropping the stock firing mode to SA/BF doesn't stop people from adding an FA mode later (which *is* what people will do). Right now I'm leaning more towards 'can not mount GasVent accessories', to cap the RC in the 5-6 range so that FA would only ever be used for suppressive fire. Even then, though, 2 short bursts would be doing a significant amount of damage versus what an assault rifle can pump out. This is definitely a tricky balance issue here but I don't want to use too many special rules to 'fix it' as it becomes too complicated.

Edit: I agree Dumori, but what about two short bursts? Doesn't that seem too powerful?

The HBAR that I'm aware of is the LMG version of the AUG flexible weapon system, not a battle rifle. Can you guys point out what you're talking about?

I still think saying no GV is as bad as saying no FA, for the same reason, but I obviously see the issue of balance. Hmm. The thing is, machine guns (and AR) can have GV, which implies no technical problem. *Not* allowing does sort of give the player the choice: AR or MG if you want FA, which isn't a terrible choice. Tough decision.

They're certainly going to be powerful rifles (which is one reason I suggested 7P/-1 instead of -2 as the 'baseline'), but that's the point. We just have to make the tradeoff happen. They'd probably all be F with high availability (more for balance than fluff, but they are quintessentially *military* weapons); small clip, extra recoil, no conceal (+8-ish?), and maybe some kind of cumbersome/heavy penalty for some situations? You're right that we only want to use *existing* rules when possible.

Another issue that we haven't mentioned in *this* thread is: are they Longarms or Automatics? Tough call. I'd say Longarms *only* to reflect their longer-range skillset, and to give Longarms some love. We all know that Automatics doesn't need any more love. Any problems with saying they're 100% longarms?

I decided (despite real world rationalizations to the contrary) to remove support for GasVents. This does not include the G12 which I decided has an integral, non-upgradeable GasVent 2. My reasoning for this is to allow the use of FA bursts in 'oh shit' moments like Dumori described but keep the optimized use of the gun in the SA department. It is entirely possible to acquire enough RC to use this gun to fire two BF shots, but only with the use of a gyromount, cyberlimb gyro system, copious amounts of STR (optional) or bipod. I feel this is reasonable, if powerful. Thank you guys so much for all the help.

This HBAR is just a Heavy Browning Automatic Rifle. It's basically just me succumbing to my own gun fetishism. On the other hand, the term Heavy Barreled Automatic Rifle is pretty accurate. I don't mind either way, I just like saying 'HBAR'.

Typo? SA/FA doesn't make the slightest bit of sense seeing as there is only one gun between SR4A and Arsenal that features SA/FA and that's the Ingram Supermach 100.

We have one....

HK517
Ammo: 18c
Mode: SA/BF
DV/AP: 7P/-2
Mods: Imaging Scope, Integrated Smartgun
Cost: 1,500
Range: As Sporting Rifle

It's based off the Recon or Sniper variant of the HK417 that feature extended barrels (16" & 20").

As for what skill this fall under, we use existing skills and specializations. So we call it a Longarm(Sniper Rifle). The weapon is good enough to cause a player to not want to use a sniper rifle, but if the player has a longarm specialization in sniper rifle and this were some other class, the sniper rifle would still hold a high appeal.

I explained the FA only in the text. It can only fire short and long bursts, but it takes greater time to do so. This is equivalent to things like the Savalette Guardian having their modes listed as SA/BF**, the ** explaining that it can fire a three round burst but it takes a complex action.

As for the latter part of your statement, Yerameyahu, I agree that no GV is a bit unrealistic, but this is one of those things where we'll have to use fluff to explain it so that the game works with these. Maybe claim that in order to fire sniper rifle rounds the barrel can not take any accessories other than sound suppressors or something. I don't know, I just think it's needed.

Whatever works.

To me, Battle Rifles *in general* are more Sport Rifles than Sniper Rifles, in range, size, and usage. While some sniper rifles fire the same rounds, it's more likely that sniper rifles in 2070 are firing things like the .406, .338, .50 BMG, etc., in my baseless opinion. ;D I wouldn't let the Sniper Rifle specialization count; if we didn't want to create a BR specialization, I'd say Sport Rifle was the right choice.

That said, I see that this *specific* model is based on Sniper (rather than Sport) rifle. It might be appropriate to use the Sniper spec in that situation, but I still think that the range category could hold sway. In addition, if it's based on a Sniper rifle, no-GV totally makes sense, per existing rules.

I see that you've sort of created a special 'low velocity' category for this one, which I'm a little leery of, but not overly so. It *is* equivalent to the SA/BF**, but it's probably more consonant with existing rules to word it like this:

"SA/BF*/FA*; (the FN HBAR requires a Complex Action for short or long bursts, and cannot fire full bursts)." A minor change, only. I just feel bad calling a long burst 3 rounds, or a full burst 6 rounds, see?

There's basically two types of battle rifles. Carbines and assault rifles modded to that purpose, or purpose-built rifles (like HK417). We took the latter take with the HK517 and purposed the weapon to the role it is intended for (designated marksman). The TC's rifles seemed to be multi-role weapons with their specs so that a shooter can fulfill multiple purposes with the same weapon. With weapons like that, then an assault rifle or sniper rifle would be more appropriate for a specialization, but this is a weapon system that is designed to provide accurate rapid fire not necessarily bursts of rounds (though it is capable of doing so). Our HK517 is indeed more like a ruggedized sniper rifle that's been trimmed down for uses in closer range engagements, thus why we use the sniper rifle specialization.

Yeah, I know that today most weapons in the Battle Rifle category are designed to be fire SA, primarily, though many can do FA. The kind of gun I was going for isn't really something in existence today, I was trying to blend the current idea of the Combat Rifle with my players desire to tote sniper rifles into combat and melding in a little bit of the heavy weapons guy ideal (the walking fire model of the BAR or M60 in Vietnam). Another source of inspiration was Jayne's rifle in Firefly. My basic concept was a heavier assault rifle that someone could use the automatics skill to fire, but with range, AP and damage slightly higher than the AR. I do need a very good reason that everyone would not carry one of these. I suppose I see your average military gun squad having one guy with an LMG, one guy with a Battle Rifle and the rest using SMGs/ARs. I figure the army may need to bring down something at greater range or with greater armor than the average AR can readily penetrate (think armored trolls). However, I am not having much luck creating a weapon that fulfills that purpose without overpowering the traditional assault rifle. I suppose one solution is to remove the BF/FA capability and just use a slightly less powerful sniper rifle with no penalties for combat usage.

I'd knock the battle rifle in to longarms as atuomantics really doesn't need more weapons.

I do have complaints about the skills and which weapons fall into them. If they're going to be longarms, then I wholeheartedly believe they should be SA by default, with BF and FA only be applied as an aftermarket mod. This frees up a bunch of conceptual problems and places them exactly in the gap between ARs and SRs. Any complaints with this?

I feel like being 'not being in an active warzone' is enough reason for everyone not to carry these. At least they're not a Stick-n-Shock problem!

Yes, I think semi-auto, mil-spec Sport Rifles are one of the roles BRs in SR would fill: sniper rifles 'juniors'. The other role is 'AR seniors', which really should have some kind of selective fire.

I think there should be at *least* BF models in the 'stock' list, given the reality of the weapon. Another balance idea from real life is increasing their base flash/noise perceptibility by +2 (suppressors can compensate with their normal modifier).

Yes, I can wholeheartedly agree with that. Ok, updating the weapons to reflect their new specifications. Should they use Sport Rifle or LMG ranges? I'd move for Sport Rifles if they're only SA.

Sport Rifle and LMG ranges are almost identical: LMG has +50m on extreme, but -50m on the lower ones. Take your pick.