If they're only SA, it sounds to me like you're advocating a return to trench warfare.

Well the complaint from my players was that they could not carry their sniper rifles in running gunfights, this basically gives them something less than a sniper rifle and more than an assault rifle to play with. And if they want to add BF/FA capability, I can turn their guns into cheese if I feel like it. As for trench warfare, the BAR was designed to be walked from trench to trench providing constant fire...instead it was used as an MG from the trench.

They definitely should have selective fire, at least for some models. The ideal here is for 2070 to be at least as good as 2010! Most of the guns in the book are 'loosely' (read: STRONGLY) based on current weapons, so we should have an M14, a FAL, a G3, in addition to a couple all-new ones (like a chopped-down Barrett or something). Carbine M121? HA.

Anyway, that means the field of gear should include SA sport rifles (for sniping in 'running firefights') and heavy ARs (like SCAR-H, etc.). However, anyone is free to say, in their game, that the heavy ARs are just too forbidden or whatever.

Sporting Rifle ranges is more logical. Since the battle rifle is supposed to provide accurate fire. With the range increment penalties accruing sooner on the LMG ranges compared to Sporting Rifle ranges, sporting rifle seems to portray accuracy better.

Plus, you could always rationalize the LMG's longer range as a result of a longer barrel length.

I agree with you. What I was trying to design here wasn't just a bigger assault rifle, though. The gun I was to design here was more supposed to provide better AP more than increase DV in a fully automatic package. I only attempted to stuff FA into it out of consideration for modern weapons that I know include the feature.

A few weeks ago a player and I discussed the idea of upping every SMG to 5P/-1 and every assault rifle to 7P/-1 to better encapsulate the 'best of both worlds' concept of future weapons. RC and ammo capacity of a modern lightweight AR with the stopping power of an old fashioned battle rifle. We also complained endlessly about how MMGs only get -1 AP over LMGs.

Well, the problem is that things are so deadly already, and the DV system doesn't have huge granularity. SMGs fire pistol rounds, so they shouldn't be vastly better in that respect than the pistols; the RAW bears this out. Making automatics *better* probably isn't the best fix, unless you're enforcing concealment and illegality pretty strictly (which nudges pistols and machine pistols more into the sweet spot).

I feel like ARs have (already) always been the 'best of both worlds', which is kind of the point. BRs are just if you really need that extra range, or you really need that little extra power; they're suboptimal in general in order to get that edge.

Yeah, MGs are an issue, but given that they mostly fire FA anyway, it's hard to tweak them much.

Yeah, I tend to treat 'polite society' like a hazardous environment. Most of my runners have their 'polite society' gear which includes fake SINs, fancy clothes, ceramic pistols, swordbelts, etc. Then all have their 'in the shit' equipment which tends to be a *lot* more dangerous and focused more on range and armor penetration. The thing about an SMG or AR in SR4A is they can (theoretically) be stuck under a trenchcoat. I feel like a 7P/-1 assault rifle, by definition, can not be hidden no matter what you do. Keep your chopped up AR or SMG for that moment when you pull out your 'little friend' and hose down a meet gone bad but reserve the battle rifle for long range SA/BF fire, except when supressing. This would just be how I play it, but I'm fine with dangerous guns as my campaigns tend to be a bit gory and gun-obsessed.

Honestly, I miss the increased damage mod from Cannon Companion. It would have solved all these problems.

Right, that's why calling BRs Sport Rifles (Longarms) means no hiding.

Heh, if you just want a little more damage, then custom ammo is probably enough for you. I thought the point was 50% increased range.

They just want something more in the department of a sniper rifle. And the more I think about it, the more I think longarms is the right place for them. If you want something more concealable, you can use your shotgun. If you want something with range but combat endurance, you can use your battle rifle. If you want something that shoots through schools, you can use your sniper rifle. It's a nice gradient now (and it prevents them from mounting GasVent's for the FA modified models).

Those poor schools!

Everyone knows, however, that a round from a weapon that shoots through schools can be stopped by a cigarette case.

Did you Dikote it?

Johnny Dangerously didn't have dikote back in the day.

Or did he? >.>

So does the Ruger Super Warhawk shoot 88 magnum?

I don't know about you, but *I* treat it like it does.

Especially if a Troll has his mitt around it.

Good thing I always carry my Form-Fitting Body Armor™ Cigarette/Bubblegum Case (over my heart for good measure).

I still say that much simpler answer to that complaint is to get rid of that fragging silly rules addition to sniper rifle's, instead of introducing a completdly new weapon class.
Becouse that rule makes no sense what so ever.

I am making a Troll in a pinstripe suit named Vermon for my players now, just because of this.

Only vaguely related, but I was reminded of this exchange from Heist by the concept of armored cigarette cases.

Bobble: We knew this trooper who always caried a bible next to his heart. We used to mock him, but that bible stopped a bullet.
Jimmy: No shit.
Bobby : Hand of God, that bible stopped a bullet, would of ruined that fucker's heart. And had he had another bible in front of his face, that man would be alive today.

One final thing, does it bother the heck out of anyone else that the only sniper rifle that specifically claims to be used by an army (also the only one to be hardened for use in a gunfight) just happens to be the only sniper rifle with an internal magazine? I am referring to the Walther MA-2100 if it wasn't obvious.

Why?

It hardly seems optimized for a running gunfight to spend 2-4 complex actions (depending on agility) to reload your sniper rifle when you could do it all in a single action phase with an external magazine (like every other sniper rifle). Plus, you hardly ever see internal magazine sniper rifles anymore.

Oh, I just thought there was something about armies and internal magazines. Carry on.

Incidentally, I feel like the 6P/-2 code of MMGs versus the 7P/-1 code of slug shotguns is a reason for the base BR to be 6P/-2 (MMG bullets, more pierce-y than big slugs, etc.). And there could be some variation from the base, given the variability of the Sport Rifle and Sniper Rifle categories (everything from 7P/-2 to 9P/-4). This would still leave the AUG-CSL Rifle configuration with a (nearly-equivalent) 7P/-1, cuz the book says so.

True, but also note that the XM30 modular assault rifle in basebook has a 'sniper' variant that is 7P/-2 with 10c ammo. I assume that version of the rifle is as hardened as the others, though I could be wrong.

Oh you mean like the M24 sniper rifle the US Army uses that has an internal magazine?

The XM30 sniper *is* the 7P/-2 I was referring to in my post.

That one honestly seems like the exception.

It also is just a military version of a sport rifle, and can use box magazines.

The WA-2000 (real life) is a purpose-built bullpup sniper rifle, with a box magazine.

Ok, the M40 sniper rifle the US Marine uses has an internal magazine too (though the M40A5 from 2009 has a detachable magazine, but that was last year).

The majority of SWAT snipers also use Remington 700 variants with internal magazines.

Right, *all* of those are just 700 (sport rifle) variants. :/ Because the one (civilian) gun they're all based on had an internal magazine. Just saying, because you're not wrong.

Distinguishing between sniper and sport rifles are for the most part quite silly tbh.

Ironically, the real WA 2000 saw less than 200 rifles ever produced and AFAIK never saw any military use - it is largely a collector's item.

But anyway, my point it that the the US army and USMC had sniper rifles with internal magazines for decades, and the army still does. The "armies would never use internal magazines" argument just doesn't hold.

And my point is that they're quickly being replaced with box magazine variants, so I am struggling to see a reason for the MA-2100 to have an internal magazine. Even the art in SR4 shows it as a bullpup box magazine loaded rifle (though it also shows a scope, when it does not come with one). Oh well.

Indeed, Smokeskin. I said you weren't wrong. I just wanted to point out that it's actually just *one* example, instead of 3+. I assume The Grue Master is thinking about all the non-internal-magazine sniper rifles we see (for example) in Modern Warfare 2 or Bad Company 2, etc. [VSS, GOL, M95, M21, SVU, WA2000, etc.]

Compared to that wide array (# of choices as opposed to # in use/years in use), it seems less normal. And The Grue Master makes a solid point about how they're all heading to box magazines in newer variants.

I hadn't seen your post when I wrote mine




Sure, it is less normal, and I don't think we'll see many if any internal magazine sniper rifles in the future (and especially not an SA one!). But with the most popular sniper rifles today having internal magazines, and the US army using them, the arguments that it was strange a rifle used by the army was internal magazine and you hardly ever saw them anymore just struck me as counter-factual. Internal magazines in sniper rifles are obviously quite fine to work with in the real world. Or at least it has been for a long time - without knowing anything about it, I'd guess the USMC is going to box magazines because of the different requirements for MOUT, countersniper, and infantry support.

Yeah, I wasn't arguing that we don't see (and won't see again) internal magazines, but in a weapon I had specifically imagined was used by squad marksmen (i.e. it is hardened for combat use) I guess I imagined a quicker reload would trump the advantages of an internal magazine (whatever those might be in 2070).

As for those game, I can't say I've had the pleasure of playing them (though my friends really want me to try Bad Company). I was actually just kinda randomly clicking various links on wikipedia and this weird engrish site about firearms (found here).

Yeah, those are the two sites I always use, too.

You're only allowed to do that if he calls everyone "farggin soona beeshes".