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Abstruse
What ordeals can a Physical Adept (or just plain Adept these days I guess) take? They can't take Astral Quest or Ally because they can't project or summon. But what other ordeals can they actually take?

Also, how does an Adept do a thesis ordeal exactly? According to MitS, you roll your "highest Active Magical Skill" (p. 61 MitS), but Adepts without the Astral Perception power won't have active magical skills. They can't cast spells, so they wouldn't need Sorcery, they can't conjure spirits so they don't need Conjury, and without the Perception power, it's pointless to have Aura Reading. What would an Adept roll?

Thanks in advance.

The Abstruse One
Lilt
They can take the Centering skill, and Enchanting...
Abstruse
Can't take Centering until they know the Centering metamagic technique. And my player is wanting to take Thesus for his first grade of initiation.

The Abstruse One
Lilt
Actually: You can learn centering, any character with a magic attribute of 1 or greater can, but you can't apply it to skills until you get the metamagic.

I'd suggest Oath for a first initiation (are you in a group?). The only one not strictly allowable for an adept is the Familiar ordeal, aside from that they're all OK (but some, like Meditation and Ascetism, are hard or undesireable for adepts).

You may even want to look at what your character has done. If he has done anything significant that was in-line with the group's (or his own if he's not in a group) outlook then he may-well have already performed the Deed ordeal.
Abstruse
A) I'm GMing, therefore it's not my character. And the player of the character is dead set on doing Thesis as his ordeal. And the second he gets the karma, he's going to initiate, and with the adventures I have planned, he won't have done anything I'd qualify as a Deed, unless he goes way off base or way out of his way to be the good guy. He'll be able to use Deed for Grade 2 though (they'll be run through Missing Blood once they're at about 20-25 karma nyahnyah.gif )

But how does an Adept who has no active magical skills do a Thesis?

The Abstruse One
RedmondLarry
He buys one from a service on the Internet and turns it in as his own work.
Zazen
QUOTE
But how does an Adept who has no active magical skills do a Thesis?


With house rules or not at all.

What's the character like? You could let him write a philosophical treatise based on some skill or trait he focuses on ("Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", "Zen and the Art of Archery", "Zen and the Art of Selling Cheap 'Zen and the Art of...' Books").

Keep in mind that all copies of this thing are a ritual link to him, forever. They're best treated like Secret Manuals in kung fu movies. You know, those ones that you're only allowed to see when you achieve a certain level of mastery and loyalty to the temple and all that smile.gif
Lilt
Well: If the game hasn't started yet, I'd talk to him and suggest he takes an active magical skill of some sort (Enchanting, Centering, or Divining) at character creation. Otherwise he's just out-of-luck as far as canon rules and theses go.

Straying into the realm of house rules though, you could let him do a "somatic thesis" using something he has improved skill in (Athletics, a Martial Art skill, Melee weapons skill, etc.). He goes through all of the acrobatic maneuvers / katas he knows, and the final thesis (with his astral signature imprinted on it) is something he was wearing/using at the time such-as the Katana he used throughout. I suspect he'd only be able to use the "Improved Skill" dice to do this, or you could just make the thesis harder to make, as otherwise he could be rolling far more dice than any other magical character and it wouldn't be balanced.
Drain Brain
For an Adept, I always house rules Thesis as a piece of work rather than an inherently magical task...

What I mean is that you'd use a language skill to write a text, use Edged Weapons B/R to craft a masterful sword which encompasses all you feel and know at this time...

You get the picture...
toturi
A good way to make use of a Thesis is using Enchanting. Edged Weapons B/R + Enchanting for making a Thesis Weapon Focus.
Darkest Angel
I'd definately allow use of a relevant knowledge skill for Thesis, perhaps not the 'Magic' background skill as it's rather vague, but something more closely associated with his path/beliefs would certainly work.

Also, an Adept of the Shaman's path can take an astral quest, since their Avatar or Totem can show them the way.
Nikoli
His thesis could be based on his combat skill if he's a fighter type adept or stealth if he's a sneaky one.
mfb
well, the rules for designing a spell formula (which a thesis resembles, creation-wise) say that you can default to a background skill at a +2 modifier. i assumed, when my adept initiated, that this applied to theses as well; though upon second reading, the rules don't really support this except through a fairly long logical leap.
Lilt
Hmm. I quite like mfb's reading. It may have a canonical-logical leap, but that's better canonically than a complete house-rule.
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Nikoli)
His thesis could be based on his combat skill if he's a fighter type adept or stealth if he's a sneaky one.

That would work.
I mean lets face it, There are artistic adepts out there, surely they would be allowed to Thesis Ordeal By painting/ Sculpting something and that piece of art being the link to them. Just with the combat/ Stealth types it would really have to a book or file.
Siege
Not to mention, whatever form his thesis takes, it's still an astral link to him.

That by itself is one helluva risk.

-Siege
Nikoli
Until he changes his astral signature on the next initiation.
Siege
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Until he changes his astral signature on the next initiation.

That's an interesting thought. It bypasses the entire drawback of a thesis.

-Siege
Lilt
Or throws the thesis into the ocean, or buries it...

[edit] Nothing to see here [/edit]
Nikoli
No, destroying the thesis risks losing magic point
Rev
I am pretty sure that physical adepts can use astral quest. They need a free spirit with astral gate, or some other unusual help to do it though.
Drain Brain
I'd quite like to see an adept character make something other than a weapon or "a book" for a combat type theme - how about a combat dummy? Ornamental armour (neo-samurai armour)? An ornamental shrine for pre-combat centering? Something a little bit different...
Crimson Jack
I like your ideas DB on having the adept create something besides a book. Think I'll use those as suggestions for my group. smile.gif
Cain
I dunno, I like the book concept. Miyamoto Musashi's Go Rin No Sho can be considered his thesis, for example.

Physads can use Astral Quest with either the participation of a free spirit, or if they're a totemic adept electing to go on a Vision Quest. Deed is particularily appropriate for an adept, as is Oath or Geas.
Rev
Shamans can make artistic things as a thesis. I think it even mentions the possibility of creating a dance, but you do have to record it somehow and keep at least one copy of it intact.

As for making a weapon I think that should only be allowed if the weapon is ceremonial in nature or in other words: useless as a weapon. Actually it would also be ok if the weapon was usable, but actually using it would cause a destruction of the thesis. For example a sword intricately painted, or very finely etched such that actually fighting with it would mess it up destroying the thesis.

Absoluetly no thesis/fingertip compartment/weapon focus/monowhips. smile.gif

PS I fairly recently saw a chinese martial arts film (who's name I cannot rember, but it was great. Fantastic scenes of vollied arrow fire to name on memorable part if anyone knows what it is) where one of the main charachters created what would in shadowrun be called a thesis with calligraphy. He wrote the charachter for sword, after much rumination, and the other main charachter gained the knowledge needed to defeat him by examining this charachter.
toturi
That was Hero.

The "other" main character wasn't trying to defeat him. It was all a ploy to get the "other" main character close enough to assassinate the emperor, the King of Qin.

Actually I would allow a usable weapon thesis that would be destroyed, the reforging of the katana in one of the Highlander movies come to mind.
Cain
QUOTE
Shamans can make artistic things as a thesis. I think it even mentions the possibility of creating a dance, but you do have to record it somehow and keep at least one copy of it intact.

Oooh... the 97 steps of Sumito. That could work nicely. rotate.gif
mfb
i've always liked the idea of fighting style texts, a la CTHD.
Abstruse
The adept in question is wanting to make a sculpture which expresses his philosophy of martial arts, much like the old Chinese paintings of the Tao, but for his personal beliefs and ways. And he does actually have skill in sculpting. Unfortunately, it's not an active Magic skill because he doesn't have Centering (and he doesn't want to take Sculpting for his Centering skill anyway), so that's what brought up the question.

The Abstruse One
DV8
Slightly unrelated; the other day I was reading through the "Charmed Life" chapter of State of the Art: 2063, and there are a few shadowtalk posts about bonded foci being used for a spiritual link and disconnecting the link and therefor making the foci unusable for ritual sorcery. One of the shadowtalkers says something along the lines of "Wow, disconnecting from a bonded foci sucks. You lose so much investment of yourself. The only thing worse is having to give up an ally spirit," to which the following shadowtalk poster says something like "You've never written a thesis as an ordeal, have you?"

Now, why do the writers insist that in-game characters talk so clinically about concepts that are a pure game mechanic? Would they refer to an ordeal as an ordeal? Would two awakened characters sit around discussing which ordeal to take when initiating? No, I think not.

</rant>
Darkest Angel
I think you're missing the point of a) Karma, and b) the whole initiation process.

Firstly, the magician puts a lot of effort and experience into initiation - aka karma, this makes initiation itself a pretty big deal without dragging ordeals into it.

An Ordeal reduces the karma cost of initiation, not as a game mechanic to make things easier for the magician, but rather as a shortcut to gaining that extra bit of life experience. By writing an thesis, or going on an astral quest, or spending weeks in meditation, or otherwise going through an ordeal, it gives the magician that extra bit of insight they needed to initiate. At the end of the day there's a very good reason they call it an ordeal - hense the reason the writers make such a big deal of it in the fiction.
DV8
I am not missing the point at all, DA. I just think that game mechanics have no place in fiction.
simonw2000
QUOTE (Abstruse)
I'm GMing, therefore it's not my character. And the player of the character is dead set on doing Thesis as his ordeal. And the second he gets the karma, he's going to initiate, and with the adventures I have planned, he won't have done anything I'd qualify as a Deed, unless he goes way off base or way out of his way to be the good guy. He'll be able to use Deed for Grade 2 though (they'll be run through Missing Blood once they're at about 20-25 karma nyahnyah.gif )

Can adepts learn Masking? If your adept can astrally perceive, he'll need it! rotfl.gif
mfb
adepts can indeed learn masking. masking is a metamagical technique, however, not an ordeal.
Drain Brain
QUOTE (DV8)
I am not missing the point at all, DA. I just think that game mechanics have no place in fiction.

They do have a place, it's just that there shouldn't always be a direct correlation between what we regard and what they regard. Everything in RPGs is a game mechanic in some way or other, and that's the world the characters live in.

For example, Joe Apple has Pistols: 1. Joe Banana has Pistols: 6. They wouldn't discuss the skill in those terms - Apple is a beginner, or just plain sucks, wheras Mr Banana has been shooting all his life, or has a natural aptitude. However, they would discuss it in terms of being a skill, even if they don't quantify it in numerical terms.

For the case in hand, a magician knows what "initiation" means. Although each different language or magical tradition may refer to it in a different way, "Initiation" in common parlance means the further-awakening of one's abilities - access to the metaplanes, whatever. Now, it doesn't necesarily make sense for them to quantify initiation in the same way as game mechanics would, but they can if they want to - example:

"I have learned X metamagical techniques. I have changed my astral signature Y times."

"Oh really? I would say, then, that according to the theorems taught to me by the Doctors at Thaumatergical Institution Z that you are a X+Y Grade Initiate."

Accordingly, it is feasible for an "Ordeal" to have entered the magical idiom. If it can be reasonably proved that focusing one's will on the creation of "an item" which encompases the practitioner's entire knowledge of magic eases the path to initiation, then why would such knowledge be commonplace? If one person bribes a teacher to get them test papers early, and tells others of the success, then these others may try it too. If it works for them as well, then the whole process may become known of generally, perhaps being called "Bribing the teacher." It becomes a trend, and enters common extelligence.

Don't think of "game mechanics In Character" as metagaming - it actually makes sense. You just have to apply a little real-world social dynamics.
DV8
...which in turn destroys the mysticism of magic. You don't decide on an ordeal like you decide which colour socks you're going to wear. It's not like you wake up one day call your fixer to cancel the job he had lined up for you because "yeah, today I think I'll go and initiate myself to third grade, depending on how much karma I've built up so far, I'll use an ordeal - perhaps some really cumbersome meditation - until I've gone up a grade. So yeah, that's gonna take me some time. Sorry to skip out on you like that, Fix. What? What metamagical technique will I choose? Oh, I was thinking about Psychometry because that's a totally cool metamagical technique that I can rape by taking all the mysticism out of it through sheer force of metagaming."
Abstruse
Also don't forget that Hermetics tend to look at magic as a set of mechanics. It's all formulas, patterns, rankings, etc. For a Hermetic, it's not surprising at all they'd talk about Grades of Initiation, Ordeals, Geas, etc. Shamen, on the other hand, wouldn't dare use numerical numbers to describe themselves. They're not Initiating, they're "bringing themselves closer to Wolf" or Bear or Raven or whoever.

The Abstruse One
Darkest Angel
When you choose your ordeal it is like choosing your socks! It's exactly that, it's saying "I am going to take the time out to create a familiar/write a thesis/study the pack interaction of wolves in alberta/sit in meditation/go on a vision quest/etc. in order to improve my understanding of magic/connection to my totem."

The alternative is initiation without an ordeal, and that comes about simply through practice and experience.

Either way, initiation is a tangiable thing which magicians of all traditions recognise and strive to acheive, and with different traditions and beliefs come different ways and ideas on how to acheive that improvement.
Siege
QUOTE (DV8 @ Mar 5 2004, 12:20 PM)
I am not missing the point at all, DA. I just think that game mechanics have no place in fiction.

I may have to add this as a quote on my .sig.

I think DV8 just hit the nail on the head -- at least where RPGs fall apart.

We take good fiction and mix it with a mechanical system to fuel the fiction.

Unfortunately, some people tend to lean one way or the other -- either fiction or mechanic heavy and we know them more commonly as drama queens, shakespeare-wannabes, power gamers and munchkins.

-Siege

Edited for clarity
Siege
QUOTE (Abstruse)
The adept in question is wanting to make a sculpture which expresses his philosophy of martial arts, much like the old Chinese paintings of the Tao, but for his personal beliefs and ways. And he does actually have skill in sculpting. Unfortunately, it's not an active Magic skill because he doesn't have Centering (and he doesn't want to take Sculpting for his Centering skill anyway), so that's what brought up the question.

The Abstruse One

I'd say go for it -- it's valid and it sounds cool.

Of course, if some janitor ever accidentally knocks the vase over while cleaning, the character may be in for a rude surprise at an inopportune moment. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Fortune
The concepts (and actual associated words) of Initiation and Ordeals have been associated with Magic, particularly Hermetic Magic, for a long time. Crowley and the Golden Dawn (to use only one example) used those exact words and concepts in describing their understanding and development of Magic.

I don't see it being out of place for two Mages to sit around discussing these matters in great detail.

Now, if they were discussing Resistance Rolls and Willpower checks in fiction, then I'd see it as a problem.
Xirces
QUOTE (Fortune)
The concepts (and actual associated words) of Initiation and Ordeals have been associated with Magic, particularly Hermetic Magic, for a long time. Crowley and the Golden Dawn (to use only one example) used those exact words and concepts in describing their understanding and development of Magic.

I don't see it being out of place for two Mages to sit around discussing these matters in great detail.

Now, if they were discussing Resistance Rolls and Willpower checks in fiction, then I'd see it as a problem.

But, if the mechanic exists in the world and the very nature of hermiticism is to analyse that. I can see two mages sitting discussing how one resists magic with willpower (the attribute is there to represent a character trait) and even talk of "spell defense" (using one's own magical power to prevent spells from affecting you/a friend).

The game rules are there to model the world and characters should be aware of how that model affects them - for instance, most people probably have an idea of how well they can achieve a certain task in a given situation - that requires an element of knowledge about how the world works (the rules of the universe, as it were) so would it be out of place for me to discuss how I can increase my chances of success in seducing (to pick a random example smile.gif ) someone based on mine and their attitude, natural charisma, looks, dress, wealth, amount of drugs taken - all of which, suprisingly are TN modifiers (in game).
Zazen
The problem is that the text DV8 quotes is the kind of language that we use for talking out of character.

It seems like poor writing. Yes, hermetics should have names for various magical statistics, but a better writer would've given them different names to keep us from being jerked back into the real world.


Imagine if you're watching a fantasy sword-fighting movie and someone yells "whoa, critical hit!"
Siege
QUOTE (Zazen)
The problem is that the text DV8 quotes is the kind of language that we use for talking out of character.

It seems like poor writing. Yes, hermetics should have names for various magical statistics, but a better writer would've given them different names to keep us from being jerked back into the real world.


Imagine if you're watching a fantasy sword-fighting movie and someone yells "whoa, critical hit!"

Didn't they do that in the DnD movie?

Wait...that was the audience...grinbig.gif

-Siege
Abstruse
I made the mistake of going to that with a group of about 12 people who'd just finished playing a game of D&D. Needless to say, at least a couple of guys got smacked for "I guess he failed his saving throw!" comments. I may be a geek, but at least I'm not a dork. nyahnyah.gif

The Abstruse One
Zazen
Paying to see that movie at all makes you a sucker. wink.gif
Foreigner
Zazen, Siege:

Actually, my brother told me that someone said those exact words, I believe, ("whoa, critical hit!", that is) when he was attending The College of William and Mary (he graduated in 1986), attending a screening of John Carpenter's ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK (1984) at the campus theater, or at a nearby theater in Williamsburg itself.

If you've seen the film, it happened during the sequence when Snake Plissken (Kurt Russell) was ambushed at the wrecked train where he had been told that The Duke of New York (Isaac Hayes) was holding The President of the United States (Donald Pleasance).

Some un-named character shoots Plissken in the knee with a crossbow, and Plissken pulls a four-bladed star shuriken from the top of his boot and tosses it underhanded, catching the guy above the right eye and (as far as the plot was concerned) killing him instantly.

Someone in the audience yells out, "WHOA, CRITICAL HIT!", or "OOOH, CRITICAL HIT!" (I'm not certain which), and my brother whispers to a friend (and fellow ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS player) who was sitting next to him, "Well, evidently WE aren't the ONLY AD&D players in attendance."

(My apologies for mentioning "That OTHER game" by name. I hope I haven't offended anyone here by doing so, but I felt that it was important to the story. frown.gif )

--Foreigner
Drain Brain
QUOTE (DV8)
(changed a bit though)

Hermetic
"Yeah, today I'm studying - the Elders of my order have suggested that I initiate myself to third grade, depending on if I can hack it or not - they are dubious as to whether or not I am experienced enough. I'm going to be in deep meditation whilst I ruminate on that matter. So yeah, that's gonna take me some time. Sorry to skip out on you like that, Fix. What? What metamagical technique will I choose? Oh, I was thinking about learning Psychometry because that's a totally cool metamagical technique that I can use to pick up aura traces off inanimate objects - it'll come in handy when next you have me running for you..."

Shamanic
"Yeah, today think I'll be waaaay too busy - I feel the need to commune with Cat. She's being all precious about how much time I spend with her - and she's promised to open up the gates of power for me - but only if I'm a good kitten... go figure. Basically, I gotta trip out to the 'planes and toss her wool-ball for her for a few hours, but that means I'll be out of it for a while. It will put me in her good books though, and she might teach me a song or two... What? What metamagical technique will I choose? You been slinging in with the Mage boys again? Get real, puss, it's all about the music - and today's hymn is "Psychometry." It's a wizzer little tune that balances my aura out to all the nuances in the not-living as well as the living - lets me see the auras of those gone hence in whatever they've dealt with. So I'll finally be able to work out who's been using my hairbrush to shine their boots..."

Fixed: Hermetic and Shamanic. There's no problems here if your players have enough imagination.
Abstruse
I don't even think a Shaman would call it Psychometry. He/She'd probably call it "Cat's Eye on the Past" or something like that.

The Abstruse One
simonw2000
QUOTE (Drain Brain @ Mar 6 2004, 06:51 PM)

Hermetic
"Yeah, today I'm studying - the Elders of my order have suggested that I initiate myself to third grade, depending on if I can hack it or not - they are dubious as to whether or not I am experienced enough.  I'm going to be in deep meditation whilst I ruminate on that matter. So yeah, that's gonna take me some time. Sorry to skip out on you like that, Fix. What? What metamagical technique will I choose? Oh, I was thinking about learning Psychometry because that's a totally cool metamagical technique that I can use to pick up aura traces off inanimate objects - it'll come in handy when next you have me running for you..."

Shamanic
"Yeah, today I think I'll be waaaay too busy - I feel the need to commune with Cat. She's being all precious about how much time I spend with her - and she's promised to open up the gates of power for me - but only if I'm a good kitten... Go figure. Basically, I gotta trip out to the 'planes and toss her wool-ball for her for a few hours, but that means I'll be out of it for a while.  It will put me in her good books though, and she might teach me a song or two...  What? What metamagical technique will I choose? You been slinging it with the Mage boys again? Get real, puss, it's all about the music - and today's hymn is "Psychometry." It's a wizzer little tune that balances my aura out to all the nuances in the not-living as well as the living - lets me see the auras of those gone hence in whatever they've dealt with. So I'll finally be able to work out who's been using my hairbrush to shine their boots..."


I agree. I said to my little brother that if he wants to be an Awakened character, that I'll let him use rock music in his magic. How can I apply that? I know how he can do the Familiar and Thesis ordeals, no problem. (I'll have him try to compose a song.) And changing his style of rock can change his astral signature. Apart from that, any ideas?
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